Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 liquid150 Nov 12, 2008 11:09:04	Somewhat unfortunate and sticky situation here.... Running 3.5E Eberron campaign. I expect that we will finish at level 9 on an adventure that accomodates 6-10th level PC's. The DM is not exceedingly experienced or knowledgeable, and seems to be ONLY willing to run pre-written campaigns that he owns. Well, we have essentially run out of 3.5e Eberron campaigns to do, at level 9, and he has indicated we will probably skip over to another setting (Ravenloft, or something else I can't remember) and have to re-roll, starting over at level 1. I am a warforged artificer, and have grand plans for my character. Another player, the warforged fighter/juggernaut has his build planned all the way through level 20. He made sacrifices for levels 1-9 to obtain the PrC, and as he pointed out he would have done lots of things differently if he had known his character would essentially end at level 9. This DM also seems extremely stubborn and closed-minded about the idea of using Eberron content in other campaign settings, and refuses to use any campaigns I have found from Dragon Magazine, saying he only wants to use things that he owns. I really, really don't want to start over. We are just getting to where the game gets exciting, and now he wants us to start over. I am at a loss with what to do, and hope to get some advice here. I feel like he is being closed-minded, and honestly, it will affect my level of fun having to start over. He also wants to go into a dungeon-crawl style campaign in which I have pretty much no interest. I love a plot to my gaming, and I feel it's his own fault that the current campaign seems to mostly just involve battles encounter after encounter. We have been railroaded into this playstyle, and he thinks its the style we prefer. Please advise!!!
#2 tequila_sunrise Nov 12, 2008 11:24:48	Well your options seem to be: 1. Suck it up and reroll. 2. Take over as the Eberron DM. It's not quite the same, but at least you'll be able to run your artificer as an NPC. 3. Convince another friend to DM, or find an outside DM willing to run a mid-high level game. If you can't do this face-to-face, there are a ton of sites where people get online games together. 4. Entertain yourself with a different pastime for a while; sometimes you have to stop looking to find something. The only advice we can give you is to pick the least evil. TS
#3 RyndarLocke Nov 12, 2008 12:24:02	There is no choice other then play as the DM instructs or find another group. The fellow has stated he won't run what he doesn't own. So either buy him a brand new adventure for 9th+ level Ebberon characters or get over it. This is NOT a world where you can dictate how your DM dms, unless of course you're paying him to do it.
#4 Zherog Nov 12, 2008 12:49:41	It seems to me that you actually have two different problems here. 1) After reaching 9th level, your DM wants to restart at first level. 2) Your DM prefers a style (hack n slash) that you don't. So let's look at each problem independently. Restarting after 9 Levels It's entirely reasonable that your DM wants to lean heavily on material he owns. If all the material he owns ends at 9th level, then I can understand why he thinks restarting is the best solution. Here's a few options (all of which, I think, have been suggested already). A) Purchase some new material for him. Grab up some back copies of Dungeon; download the Dungeon adventures that were posted on the site for free. Find copies of the Eberron adventures such as Voyage of the Golden Dragon. The problem you're going to run into here, I believe, is that there's not really that much mid-to-high level stuff designed specifically for Eberron. However, lots of stuff that appeared in the print version of Dungeon is easily adapted to the setting. B) Poke around and see if one of your other buddies would have interest in DMing the campaign for a while. You have to be careful, though, that this doesn't end up hurting the current DM's feelings. C) Take over the campaign yourself. See above about making sure to consider the DM's feelings. One thing to keep in mind: some people don't like sticking with the same thing for a long period of time. I played with one guy who wanted to make a new character every six months or so. It wasn't that he wasn't having fun; instead, he had so many ideas that he couldn't hold them back. Similarly, when he DM'ed, we ended up changing things a lot. Something we did there might help here -- we went plane hopping. This is especially useful for something like Ravenloft, where the Mist can take characters from anywhere in the multiverse and drop them into the setting. See if your group can compromise -- you'll switch to a Ravenloft campagin, but those who want to keep their characters can do so, and those who want a new character now have an opportunity to take advantage of that. Play Style This one is actually an easier resolution, I think. The answer here is simple: talk to your DM. Explain what you like, explain what you'd like to do different. If he thinks you want hack n slash because nobody's told him otherwise, then you can't exactly blame him for running it. Just be thoughtful about it. Don't accuse him of sucking the fun out of the game or anything like that. Presumably, everybody in the group is friends. As such, it shouldn't be that difficult to tell your friend that you'd like to try a slightly different style. Give him some ideas; help him build a plot by having goals for your character. When you come across a baddie, roleplay the encounter rather than just chucking dice. Describe your character's actions; talk to the villain as you swing your sword. Take a bad guy prisoner and interrogate him/her/it. * Again, presumably you're all friends. So treat everybody fairly and talk it out amongst the group. I'm sure these things can be resolved easily. Good luck.
#5 liquid150 Nov 12, 2008 12:56:33	There is no choice other then play as the DM instructs or find another group. The fellow has stated he won't run what he doesn't own. So either buy him a brand new adventure for 9th+ level Ebberon characters or get over it. This is NOT a world where you can dictate how your DM dms, unless of course you're paying him to do it. I'm not dictating anything at all. I'm asking for help, something of which I noticed your post supplies none. I'm not telling him what to do, I am making my case as a player as I am entitled to do. Take your self-righteous DM-God complex to the "What's a DM to do" forum. You ALWAYS have options, it does not always have to be "play as the DM says or find another game." In this case, these are friends of mine beyond just gaming partners, there will be no other group, it's out of the question. Friends should always be able to find some common ground where everyone is happy.
#6 liquid150 Nov 12, 2008 13:03:46	*cut for brevity* Thank you for your help. I will try and do my best to get him to allow us to either keep, or re-roll our currently built characters. I am quite concerned that I am going to be completely disallowed from my character altogether, as I am a Warforged Artificer and both race and class are Eberron Setting material. Hopefully he'll let us keep the characters. Is there any logical argument that can be made against the "well it's not in that setting book so no you can't" mentality? I wouldn't mind rerolling my current character with the same race and class in a new setting, but I know my other friends (the 2 other players) would mind. I have already offered to obtain these quests from the site here, but he seems skeptical of this literature, believing that since he didn't buy it from a bookstore or Amazon that it's not legit material. To be blunt, I think these problems stem from his inexperience with DMing, although as a novice myself I can't criticize that. I also wouldn't mind running the adventure. It definitely wouldn't hurt his feelings, as he seems to already understand I know most of the rules better than he does.
#7 Zherog Nov 12, 2008 13:32:08	Thank you for your help. I will try and do my best to get him to allow us to either keep, or re-roll our currently built characters. I am quite concerned that I am going to be completely disallowed from my character altogether, as I am a Warforged Artificer and both race and class are Eberron Setting material. Hopefully he'll let us keep the characters. Is there any logical argument that can be made against the "well it's not in that setting book so no you can't" mentality? If he's intent on going to Ravenloft, there's definitely a built-in mechanic for it. The Mists are designed to specifically draw characters into the demi-plane of Ravenloft from other locations. I have already offered to obtain these quests from the site here, but he seems skeptical of this literature, believing that since he didn't buy it from a bookstore or Amazon that it's not legit material. Unfortunately (in my opinion) WotC decided to cease publication of the magazines and instead make that content web-enabled. For about a year, they allowed anybody to access the material on the site for free. Overall, the content isn't significantly different than what ran in the magazines when Paizo published them. There was at least one Eberron-specific adventure published during that time, by Nick Logue. Generally speaking, I also prefer a printed product instead of a PDF. So I can understand some of his trepidation. Again, this is the sort of thing that can be worked out by just talking. As another alternative, does the adventure have to specifically be placed in Eberron? There's a slew of great adventures out there, and generally speaking it isn't too difficult to take one of these and alter it slightly to have the flavor of a specific world. For example, I once ran my group through Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, but set the adventure in the Forgotten Realms rather than Greyhawk. It really wasn't that much effort at all to convert -- change a few place names, switch around the deities, tweak an NPC or two to have setting-specific stuff, and it was done. To be blunt, I think these problems stem from his inexperience with DMing, although as a novice myself I can't criticize that. Could be. The only way to get past that, though, is to get experience. I also wouldn't mind running the adventure. It definitely wouldn't hurt his feelings, as he seems to already understand I know most of the rules better than he does. This, then, sounds like it might be the best solution. Bring up the subject of staying with the same campaign but with a different DM, and offer to take over for a while. Your character will have to fade into the background a bit. But overall, this sounds like it could be a good solution.
#8 liquid150 Nov 12, 2008 14:14:45	Just found out my juggernaut friend had a long conversation with our DM about this issue yesterday. He seemed hell-bent on saying "no" as much as possible. Does anybody else agree with me that a DM should be accomodating as possible within reason? A certain point that was brought up in the conversation struck my curious side. He is quoted to have said he does not like the fact that 2/3 of the party is warforged, and that our cleric is the only one susceptible to many enemy attacks (sleep, paralysis, poison, disease, energy drain immunities). I also wonder if he's worried the juggernaut will overpower him (especially with my artificer's support), being immune to many spell effects (necromancy effects, mind affecting effects, etc.). I don't think he has prepared himself to counter the weaknesses of our characters, as the obvious answer to the juggernaut problem is his terrible will save, and use of no-save spells like Forcecage.
#9 dio1632 Nov 12, 2008 14:39:46	(Our GM) seemed hell-bent on saying "no" as much as possible. Does anybody else agree with me that a DM should be accomodating as possible within reason? I have several reactions to this, from both sides (I play 3.5, play 4E, GM FUDGE and GM Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay): 1: You are all players in a game. You are all equal, insofar as any one of you can say "nah, I don't wanna play this" and do something else that day. The big difference is, if the GM says it then the rest of you are out of the game so it is probably more important to keep the GM happy than any other player (for as long as you like the game) 2: In fact, what makes good literature is that things happen from time to time that nobody wants! This is what the 2nd act of any good play or movie is about -- the struggle that comes up and makes the protagonist(s) wonder if it's all worth it. If my GM always gave my character what would make me happy that moment, my character would never grow and never have a real story. Judging the story from the whole arc is more helpful than judging it by one upset. 3: Related to 2. Sometimes, an overall idea of the issues and challenges that characters will face is related to a clear sense of world and what is or is not around in that world. I had a couple players who screamed bloody murder in a game I ran with no magical healing -- but as the game maured realized where we were going with the story. If a different vision of the world is the problem, then I would suggest that your GM be up front with a "back cover blurb" about salient issues and challenges expected in the campaign, so you can talk about ones that don't interest you so much, and you can decide if you want to play and he can decide if he wants to modify it to increase his player pool. 4: I am a firm believer in saying "yes" to players, when what they suggest is within the scope of the shared world envisioned. The reason to say "no" should never have to do with the rules, but should have to do with whether or not it seems sound within the campaign you are all building. That said, I have sometimes told a player "yeah, you can do that, but in this game world that rule is going to operate just a little differently . . ." 5: If a GM doesn't or can't trust his/her players to avoid breaking the game, that GM can't have those players in his/her game. If players can't trust a GM to create a good backdrop for their story, without railroading, and while being happily open to innovation and surprises from the players, those players will not be able to play with the GM.
#10 Krusk Nov 12, 2008 14:41:15	Hopefully he'll let us keep the characters. Is there any logical argument that can be made against the "well it's not in that setting book so no you can't" mentality? No help on warforged from me (the mysts are the only thing I can think of as well) but for artificer, bring up the point "No guys sit around and make magic items?" That is essentially the artificer. Honestly though, forcing someone to DM something they don't want to almost always ends poorly. Best options are to suck it up, or ask the DM to change their mind. If they say no, you are back to the suck it up option. Or you can always find a new DM.
#11 kursk Nov 12, 2008 14:51:48	Does anybody else agree with me that a DM should be accomodating as possible within reason? No. DMing hard and sometimes thankless. DMs usually run what interests them. DMing something you don't like makes for a bad experience all around. If you want something he isn't willing to do, DM your own game... Do you pay him for all his work?
#12 salla Nov 12, 2008 15:06:15	I agree that a DM should be accomodating within reason. Unfortunately, with the theme of Ravenloft (aka 'you're supposed to be scared of everything'), having a party who is largely immune to the things that would be scary ("AAAH! WIGHTS! They'll ... do a little damage to us!") spoils the mood and screws the theme. Horror gaming, which AFAIK is Ravenloft's schtick, requires vulnerability; two-thirds of the party being able to laugh off the 'fear factor' will not result in horror gaming. In that light, warforged qualify as 'unreasonable', as would any other race that's largely immune to such things. It's a theme-breaker. It's a new game, new characters, new campaign. Were I in your shoes, I'd much rather stay in Eberron as well. Gothic horror stuff doesn't appeal to me as a player. Your options, sadly, are 'make new character' or 'opt not to play'.
#13 Electricbee Nov 12, 2008 15:57:52	If his primary objection to the warforged is their immunities, write up a version without most of those immunities (perhaps an artificially made living thing with bound on armor instead of a magically animated construct) Stat it out to keep the flavor you like but try to give him the space to tell the stories he'd like to. The 4th edition warforged are missing most of the blanket immunities of the 3.5 and would be a good starting point.
#14 RyndarLocke Nov 12, 2008 16:21:50	I'm not dictating anything at all. I'm asking for help, something of which I noticed your post supplies none. I'm not telling him what to do, I am making my case as a player as I am entitled to do. Take your self-righteous DM-God complex to the "What's a DM to do" forum. You ALWAYS have options, it does not always have to be "play as the DM says or find another game." In this case, these are friends of mine beyond just gaming partners, there will be no other group, it's out of the question. Friends should always be able to find some common ground where everyone is happy. Touche good sir, and upon further evaluation on my own post I have found I was quite rude and rather lacking in the help section. So to alleviate the current emotion said post is causing I will make an addition to my stance. You could try, DMing yourself, buying/finding/thieving adventures for him, and of course kidnapping him and forcing him to run a game through guile, trickery, or torture. As to the hack and slash, well just go a different route if he asks "why you tryin to ruin ma game!?" explain to him. "Sir or Madam, I am not attempting to ruin your game, However you are apparently attempting to ruin my fun by only running combat encounters. I desire love, romance, and the occasional four hour session of doing nothing at all. So please take into cosideration my feelings while you are dolling your time to dm for me." that enough help?
#15 liquid150 Nov 12, 2008 17:22:17	kidnapping him and forcing him to run a game through guile, trickery, or torture. One word....BRILLIANT!!!! :D I will take the rest of the post as a constructive way of saying, "offer to take over as DM and SHOW him what we (meaning myself, and the rest of the players except the DM) want. Not a bad idea, when put that way. Really, if DM'ing is "work," I think one should reconsider whether they want to continue. He's not doling out time at all, not any more than I am doling out my time participating in the game myself. Myself, I look at it as playing the game WITH my friends, not doing them a favor.
#16 Tony_Vargas Nov 12, 2008 18:26:33	Your DM is running 3.5, and that system doesn't do high levels at all well. Creating high level challenges is a tremendous amount of work, especially when you consider that all the high-level enemies you just painstaking statted out are going to be cut in half by Leap Attacks and reduced to dust by disintegrates in the first round of combat. Conversely, 3.5 does the first 10 levels really well, /and/ gives players a tremendous amount of lattitude in designing thier characters - even if you're not using all that many suplements, you can create quite a variety of class/multi-class/feat/etc choices to customize a fairly unique PC. So, look at the bright side, come up with a new character concept, and have fun building it, and playing it for a while.
#17 navar100 Nov 12, 2008 19:15:17	Ask the DM to try once to make up his own adventure, continuing the same campaign and characters. Give him time to develop it, i.e. if you play once a week you may have to skip a week, but maybe not. He should promise he will be sincere in his effort to create a fun and fair adventure. You and the other players promise to give it a fair shake and not complain over any minor annoyances. Then play the adventure and see how it goes. Afterwards discuss what went right and what went wrong. Maybe the DM will feel more confident in creating his own adventures instead of published ones and continue the campaign. If not, at least he gave it a fair shake and tried to accomodate you as opposed to arbitrarily brushing you off as he's doing now. It's the DM's campaign, but it's everyone's game.
#18 dio1632 Nov 12, 2008 23:19:38	Really, if DM'ing is "work," I think one should reconsider whether they want to continue. He's not doling out time at all, not any more than I am doling out my time participating in the game myself. Myself, I look at it as playing the game WITH my friends, not doing them a favor. Lots of work is worth it. Lots of things that people do for fun still call for a word of thanks. I love my profession, and have lots of fun there, but it is work. I enjoy cooking, but it is work, and I like to be thanked for it. I am happy when my players are appreciative and thank me for my work. I try to thank my GMs for the work they do. Most work worth doing is fun, and the most fulfilling fun is work.
#19 RyndarLocke Nov 14, 2008 0:32:33	One word....BRILLIANT!!!! :D I will take the rest of the post as a constructive way of saying, "offer to take over as DM and SHOW him what we (meaning myself, and the rest of the players except the DM) want. Not a bad idea, when put that way. Really, if DM'ing is "work," I think one should reconsider whether they want to continue. He's not doling out time at all, not any more than I am doling out my time participating in the game myself. Myself, I look at it as playing the game WITH my friends, not doing them a favor. Glad I could help. You also forget he "should" be spending time writing, reading, reviewing, planning and retuning the game on your off-play time yes?
#20 liquid150 Nov 14, 2008 8:55:10	Glad I could help. You also forget he "should" be spending time writing, reading, reviewing, planning and retuning the game on your off-play time yes? Well, not exactly. I didn't forget, I just know he doesn't. The extent of his out of session planning work is adding our XP up. Using the pre-written text adventures, he has all the encounters pre-planned, pre-balanced, and pre-set. I probably have spent more time between sessions leveling up and filling out my character sheet than he has on planning.
#21 RyndarLocke Nov 14, 2008 15:34:21	Well, not exactly. I didn't forget, I just know he doesn't. The extent of his out of session planning work is adding our XP up. Using the pre-written text adventures, he has all the encounters pre-planned, pre-balanced, and pre-set. I probably have spent more time between sessions leveling up and filling out my character sheet than he has on planning. Then I believe your issue isn't hack and slash or even restarting at 9th level. It seems your DM just really isn't into the planning of the game. I would happen to guess he only DM's because noone else wants to.
#22 turalisj Nov 15, 2008 22:47:39	Your DM is running 3.5, and that system doesn't do high levels at all well. Creating high level challenges is a tremendous amount of work, especially when you consider that all the high-level enemies you just painstaking statted out are going to be cut in half by Leap Attacks and reduced to dust by disintegrates in the first round of combat. Conversely, 3.5 does the first 10 levels really well, /and/ gives players a tremendous amount of lattitude in designing thier characters - even if you're not using all that many suplements, you can create quite a variety of class/multi-class/feat/etc choices to customize a fairly unique PC. So, look at the bright side, come up with a new character concept, and have fun building it, and playing it for a while. Wow, you know, if someone had asked about DMing at high level or creating a character at high level, this might have been helpfull. As Liquid has said, the DM uses premade adventures. That means he DOESN'T have to stat up high level monsters. My advice would be the same as most other people that have posted- Run the game yourself for a bit, showing him how you guys like to play.