Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 S3LF Jul 16, 2015 16:00:20	Just to introduce myself. I have been playing pen & paper RPGs for almost 20 years. I regulary run a Shadowrun campaign for some friends of mine. Although I can and frequently do DM, I prefer to play characters. I had suggested that maybe one of the other players might be willing to run a campaign that I could play in, as well as allowing me more time to build their campaign.   Now comes the problem. The person who offered to has started a D&D 4th edition campaign (my least favorite). While I was away for a family event the other two players had both made characters before I had a chance to. So there are three characters in the campaign, myself and two others. The first player chose to make an Dragonborn Avenging Paladin (this also is only his second RPG ever, Shadowrun being the first). The other player has selected a Tiefling Devoted Cleric, although she is much more experienced with RPGs. They both worship the Raven queen and come from the same temple, although I haven't decided whether or not I will have any religious affiliation. We are also set in a Cold enviroment and I have gathered will be fighting undead and dragons at some point. The Paladin is VERY attached to his character, and seems unwilling to change for RP reasons.   I view both the Paladin and the Cleric very similarly. Though the Cleric at least seems to be good at their job. I have to build a character that will help make up for the teams (many) weaknesses. I currently have a Human Rageblood Barbarian that I have built with the advice of some of the build handbooks here. The GM is allowing a bonus expertise feat for whatever your primary attack involves. The Barbarian's is currently Fullblade. I don't want a completely min/maxed character that is lacking the character concept (ie Bugbear Rageblood Barbarian w/oversized Mordenkrad). I want a character I can enjoy RPing while tying together the team.   Does anyone have any suggestions? We are trying to draw from everything pre-essentials, and personally I don't like dwarves. Though dwarf-revenant isn't out of the question. I have looked at a Hexhammer build, Battlerager and a few others. The GM is very anti certain books it seems, as Ninja, Scout, Warforged and a few others have been shot down. I would love to hear some ideas for both Character builds/concepts as well as for gear that may assist in keeping the party alive.   Thank you all in advance, I know this is a little wordy though I tried to simplify it as much as possible.
#2 Matyr Jul 16, 2015 16:24:46	Not sure why paladin and cleric means you have a bad team as both of those classes are quite strong in 4e and can avoid having a ton of overlap depending on build.  Mechanically speaking you have a strong leader and strong defender.  Controllers tend to be the most replaceable aspects, especially in small parties, so you likely want a striker of some form or fashion.   I assume if the player is playing an Avenging Paladin they are likely a Str-adin (Str/Wis) or Baladin (Str/Cha) and the cleric is probably a battle cleric (Str/Wis) or healic (Wis/Cha).  Rageblood barbarians are STR/DEX 99% of the time, so your only overlap there is STR.  If you only have 3 that would mean you are likely without a stealthy "scout" (the archetype not the class) character and possibly without a "face" depending on their builds.   Without knowing a little more about their builds the only thing I would suggest is to see if you can be either onboard with the religious tilt or make your character a foil of the concept (thematically opposite).  Games with really strong religious overtones can be similar to games with really strong stealth overtones in that the party generally all goes that way or it can't be the core of the gameplay.  I'd talk to them and see what fits you in that area.   Depending on what "stat" is missing from the group I'd play one of the following:   You want to play the foil: Rogue - There are like 95 flavors of rogue (some of which are assassins).  Play one and have fun as the "scout" archetype or as a true foil and trickster to the devout party members. Neither are STR based: Rageblood Barbarian (Like you have).  Personally I love half-orcs and I like having a spear, but you can play what you want.  I had a Barb|Fighter/Avenger that I played for 18 levels and adored.   Neither are Cha based: Dragonborn Dragon Sorcerer.  Don't play a breather, but its a fun, mobile striker.  You could also go the Dex way and be halfling to double as the scout. Tiefling Hexblade/Warlock - This could easily make a good foil.  A sarcastic doubter in the ways of the gods.   Neither are Wis based: Wood Elf Pursuit Avenger. I've wanted to play a build like this as Sanya from Dresden Files.  The guy gets handed a holy sword from a literal arch-angel and still thinks its more likely that he is insane than God exists.  Would be a fun character to play with the religious overtones.   There isn't really anything really odd about your choice unless both the paladin and cleric are strength builds.  In which case you have 3 STR primary characters... which would rock at the times they need strength and have issues every other instance.
(Reply to #2) S3LF	Matyr wrote:
#4 Matyr Jul 16, 2015 17:52:21	S3LF wrote:
(Reply to #4) S3LF	Matyr wrote:
#6 Matyr Jul 16, 2015 18:48:17	Gotcha.  So ideally your Paladin has Two-Handed Weapon Expertise, Devout Protector Expertise, Mighty Crusader Expertise or Flail Expertise based on build.  The cleric likely has similar (Although might have Holy Symbol Expertise).   Starting at first level the Paladin should be doing very respectable damage especially if they have a 2hander and damage powers.  Blood of the Mighty does 8d6b1+5= 8d5+13 ~24 + 13 = 37 damage on average with a good two hander.  I avoided listing too many eclasses (outside of Hexblade which can be easily made as a melee warlock as well), but if they are available Elementalist is also excellent in the early game.
(Reply to #6) S3LF	Matyr wrote:
#8 Matyr Jul 16, 2015 21:07:50	S3LF wrote:
#9 tiornys Jul 17, 2015 1:32:03	I'm going to focus on mechanical considerations.  Unfortunately I'm not seeing a clean solution to cover all of the following "wishlist" items: --be a striker --mesh well with the current party in terms of combat tactics --have Dex as a primary or secondary --have Int as a primary or secondary (I'm ignoring Con here because the Dex and Int skills are typically more valuable for skill challenge coverage) --have access to Dex-based and Int-based skills   There aren't very many classes that want both Dex and Int.  Rogue (Scoundrel) Cunning Sneak build is basically the only striker option, but a) it's one of the least supported Rogue builds, b) it's aimed at ranged/lurker style combat that will tend to direct enemies towards your melee vulnerable Cleric, and c) the Rogue skill list has no Int-based skills on it.     So, I think you're looking at compromising somewhere, either on Int skills (since there aren't really options for Int-primary strikers) or on the "striker" part.  With the Wis/Cha Cleric around, I don't think it's a good idea to back away from "striker", and ideally I think you'd want to pick a melee striker with defender tendencies.  Plus, you already have one party member that's going to have two weak NADs (Cleric with weak Fort and Reflex), so going with some sort of Dex/Int hybrid is undesirable from a defensive standpoint (from multiple angles, really).   Given that, I think you want to look at the Pursuit Avenger, Brawny Rogue, or potentially a Monk.  Pursuit Avenger would be my top choice, more so if you can use a background or theme to access Thievery, and even more if your DM is ok with the Power of Skill feat (unfortunately, the Raven Queen does not have Skill as a domain).   The main alternative I see to Dex-striker is to go Wizard (Arcanist) with emphasis on personal survivability, the ability to handle melee, and relatively high damage output.  This is doable, but takes a certain amount of optimzation.
#10 Matyr Jul 17, 2015 10:35:49	tiornys wrote:
#11 S3LF Jul 17, 2015 18:14:45	Thanks again, your advice is much appreciated.   I really like how the Barbarian turned out, I am worried a little about the absence of Stealth and Thievery though. Should I be? Is there a simple way to gain those skills, or equivalent?   My stats are 20 Str, 16 Dex, 14 Con, 12 Wis, 10 Cha & 10 Int if that helps. I can still use the point buy to swap those numbers around if needed. I'm also gonna build a Pursuing Avenger, a Monk, a Rogue and a Hexblade Warlock. Just to see how they fit.   Also I am fairly new to 4th edition, if you happen to know the location of the classes/backgrounds/powers/etc that you are referring to, I would appreciate it. Google results don't always work in my favor.
#12 tiornys Jul 17, 2015 17:10:53	S3LF wrote:
#13 Matyr Jul 17, 2015 18:49:07	tiornys wrote:
#14 tiornys Jul 17, 2015 18:59:13	S3LF wrote:
(Reply to #13) S3LF	Matyr wrote:
#16 Matyr Jul 19, 2015 19:21:28	Rolled stats are a really terrible idea in the long run in every 4e game I've ever played.  Unless everyone rolled extremely well, in which case just having higher point buy is a better plan, then you have problems.