Um. Martial Power adds "Battlerage Vigor" or "Tempest Technique" as options. They give bonuses when selected, like a Warlock's Pack. Nothing like that in the PHB for most of the Classes, from what I can tell?
*goes to dig book out of box*
IIRC, Battleragers and Tempests lose the Weapon Talent class feature. Therefore, the "class feature" you are referring to is Weapon Talent.
*goes to dig book out of box*
Really? *waits for confirmation*
What about for Clerics then? They have Builds, but nothing that seems to actually give boosts.
Okay. I was using the wrong term then...
Um. Martial Power adds "Battlerage Vigor" or "Tempest Technique" as options. They give bonuses when selected, like a Warlock's Pack. Nothing like that in the PHB for most of the Classes, from what I can tell?
Well, BRV and Tempest replace Fighter Weapon Talent. All fighters get the other two features. So all fighters have 3 class features. The 2 builds that are in the PHB for fighters don't actually have different mechanics behind them, they are just recommended choices to get you started. The only real difference is that one of them takes FWT for one-handed weapons and the other for two-handed weapons.
There are some paragon paths that require specific class feature options, like Battlefield Archer, but technically an Archer Ranger and a TBF Ranger are still using the same feature, Fighting Style.
Likewise with other PHB class builds. They don't really have different class features. Some have a couple of options within their features. Like pacts for warlocks. They all have a pact, it just works slightly different for each one. Same for wizards, they just pick a different implement to master. PHB2 classes really are pretty much the same way. Each major class feature usually has a couple of options.
Replacement class features don't really appear until the splat books, Martial Power and Arcane Power. So in MP a ranger can replace Fighting Style class feature and Prime Shot class feature with Beast Mastery class feature. Rogues and Fighters likewise have replacements.
Arcane Power seems to have gone more with extra options to existing features.
In any case, the builds are more about documenting packages of choices that work well together vs different mechanics.
These fighter class features are available to any fighter who wishes to explore a different area of expertise. You can select one of the following features in place of the Fighter Weapon Talent class feature.
The purpose of having different Class Features available is not to "give boosts", but to provide different ways of playing a class. Now, the new Fighter Class Features do seem to give a huge advantage compared to the Fighter Weapon Talent feature, but that is simply because Wizards sucks at math. :P
Edit: And, um... what AbdulAlhazred said. :embarrass
Really? *waits for confirmation*
What about for Clerics then? They have Builds, but nothing that seems to actually give boosts.
Clerics get Channel Divinity, the Healing Word power, Healer's Lore and get the Ritual Caster feat. Channel Divinity gives them two bonus encounter powers, and gives the option of gaining a third, which is dependent on their Deity (this may chance when Divine Power comes out next month).
The "builds" are essentially meaningless. They're simply examples for new players. Any Cleric can take any power, although it will require you to focus on both Wisdom and Strength if you do.
-Cleric: None Really - Channel Divinity I suspect was supposed to be the option
-Fighter: Fighter Weapon Talent - Chose either 1h or 2h weapons and gain a +1 to hit
-Paladin: None really - same boat as the cleric
-Ranger - Two Weapon Fighting or Archery
-Rogue - Gain str bonus to SA or gain cha bonus to AC
-Warlock - Pacts
-Warlord - Action point healing or action point bonus to attack
-Wizard - Implements
The class options, so to speak, for each class in the PHB are as follows.
-Cleric: None Really - Channel Divinity I suspect was supposed to be the option
-Fighter: Fighter Weapon Talent - Chose either 1h or 2h weapons and gain a +1 to hit
-Paladin: None really - same boat as the cleric
-Ranger - Two Weapon Fighting or Archery
-Rogue - Gain str bonus to SA or gain cha bonus to AC
-Warlock - Pacts
-Warlord - Action point healing or action point bonus to attack
-Wizard - Implements
THANK YOU!
Okay. So Clerics and Paladins don't have anything until Divine Power ships next month. Cruddy... I'll see if my group is willing to wait a little longer to start off. Thanks again! I just wanted to be sure I had my list complete before anyone starts selecting options.
THANK YOU!
Okay. So Clerics and Paladins don't have anything until Divine Power ships next month. Cruddy... I'll see if my group is willing to wait a little longer to start off. Thanks again! I just wanted to be sure I had my list complete before anyone starts selecting options.
Yeah - the argument could be made that channel divinity feats and abilities are those two classes "options" but they do lack the same type of options that other classes have(i.e. a defining choice that truly affects the way you play your character).
The cleric can be built around either STR or WIS. This does make a large difference in how the character plays. STR based clerics generally wear heavy armor and use melee weapons. A lot of their powers will focus on granting combat bonuses to the rest of the party and debuffing monsters. WIS based clerics generally wear light armor and use ranged weapons. They are a bit more likely to focus on healing. Channel Divinity feats also, at least in theory, give you additional ways to customize the character. Currently the choices of CD feats are pretty lacklustre though. And of course you have a choice of gods, which has no real mechanical significance at this time. I suspect it may take on a bit more significance when DP is released next month.
Paladins are the ones that are really lacking options. In theory they have a choice between STR and CHA, similar to clerics. Currently the STR paladin build is very lacking in useful powers. They also can utilize CD feats, but again the choices are poor.
Divine Power will be out in a month, so really it seems to me you don't need to wait. There are good build options for these two classes now, and at 1-3 level certainly you can play either class with a couple of builds reasonably well. I kind of doubt anyone is going to run out of things to do with their character in a month of play. When DP comes out grab a copy and by then the PCs are unlikely to have made it past 2nd level. The players will have new powers to use and you can always let them make a few minor changes to their options at that point. I recommend doing that anyway, especially with new players.
Divine Power will be out in a month, so really it seems to me you don't need to wait. There are good build options for these two classes now, and at 1-3 level certainly you can play either class with a couple of builds reasonably well. I kind of doubt anyone is going to run out of things to do with their character in a month of play. When DP comes out grab a copy and by then the PCs are unlikely to have made it past 2nd level. The players will have new powers to use and you can always let them make a few minor changes to their options at that point. I recommend doing that anyway, especially with new players.
Yeah, the build based on an ability is for all of them, though. Even the Fighter's Shield and Sword or Two-Handed is weaker mecanically than the options in Martial Power (Power creep lives on!
) so I don't count those as the same sort of options.I'm running my game play-by-post. Three Players (three PCs + 1-2 NPCs, no one wanted to have more than one Char) one of which never played D&D, one never played 4th ed and the third picked up the books but has no one locally. We ran a Lv3 Encounter, a Lv13 one and are set for the Lv23 one (loads of minions and 5 sides to the conflict, allowing the PCs an option to make allies or "lesser of evils" type choices). I think I can extend that for at least a few weeks since I just have the map left now. Divine Power (like Primal Power and Martial Power II) are part of one pre-order or another on my Amazon account. I like the options and want to make things as fun (but also as simple) as possible for play and options.
So it seems like all but Clerics and Paladins actually have a build in feature which allows them to select an option that drives their PC past Power choices. (In case anyone's wondering, a low STR, Implement only Cleric is asking for it if the party has no tank... :p So much for my first 4th ed PC.) But that's fine. I just wanted to be sure I was understanding things correctly since the format between PHB and PHB II changed a bit.
Shield/Spear push-prone builds or Reach pull-prone builds are better off with Weapon Talent, after all.
Even the Fighter's Shield and Sword or Two-Handed is weaker mecanically than the options in Martial Power (Power creep lives on!
I suggest taking a look at the CharOp forums before you make that statement.
BRV fighters look really impressive at first, but they have some serious weaknesses, especially once you hit paragon. Tempest fighters likewise have some weaknesses. This is especially true if you don't allow the double-cheese weapons (which are just plain broken and should be banned or fixed).
The choices for clerics are more subtle in their differences in terms of how they are implemented than the options for say fighters, but they are at least as significant. A STR based melee cleric is TOTALLY different from a WIS based "laser" cleric. Thus there are very distinct and flavorfull options there, they just aren't based on picking different class feature choices.
The same goes for some of the other PHB classes like wizards. Notice that while AP did add some new implement mastery choices the real differences with wizards are based on stats and which types of powers you pick combined with implement mastery choice.
Overall Martial Power and Arcane Power do add a lot of options to various classes, but they are not over powered compared to the existing choices, and a lot of the options in those books will be good for existing characters, like new feats and obviously powers. Every new set of options will add to the choices you have and inevitably some new combinations will prove to be better than or enhance existing ones. So yes, characters can get more powerful using the splat books, but the differences are not all that large and there are some equally good ways to go that only use options from PHB or PHB2.
Yeah, I have to agree with the last 2 posters. BRV and Tempest are good options for some builds and they certainly will exceed the power level of your average unoptimized sword and board or 2H fighter. Basically both of those options are EASIER to build a slightly more powerful fighter with, but if you know the rules fairly well all 4 basic build paths for fighters offer equally good performance.
But there is a reason I don't go to the "CharOp forums" this is to be presented to people who don't know the game all that well at all.
But there is a reason I don't go to the "CharOp forums" this is to be presented to people who don't know the game all that well at all.
The last 3 posts are more in response to the power creep comment than anything else.
CharOp tends to have a deeper understanding of the numbers than anywhere else, so specifically for BVR and Tempest, the conclusions were as presented. They seem really powerful, but they're not as overpowered as people think.
Tempest with double weapons and RoB tend to have a lot of complaints, but analysis shows their knee-jerk "fixes" are almost always pointless over-reactions to not seeing the numbers. (Ie. the difference isn't actually that great, so let the player have his cheese and be happy about it. A faux-striker can easily be smacked about in-game.)
BVR's get complaints as well, but this stems from either misunderstanding how THP works or having unbalanced (in terms of mixed roles) encounters.
As people are playing battleragers, in fact, we've gotten less of these complaints as the trade-offs involved finally become apparent to the non-number crunchers. (Specifically, if you want to be immune to minions, you've giving up damage and to-hit, which is pretty much all you have. They can't touch you, you can't touch them. Don't try to abuse the THP and you'll actually end up with a more effective character that does appear "overpowered".)
It's not a matter of if you're talking to newbies or veterans. Your professor needs an in depth understanding of his field to teach freshmen, no? There's no harm in knowing more about a subject even if you're teaching newbies.
But there is a reason I don't go to the "CharOp forums" this is to be presented to people who don't know the game all that well at all.
Yeah, I would suggest at least a quick skim of the charop boards. There is a "handbook" posted for pretty much every class that gives a fairly comprehensive overview of the options and various synergies between powers/feats/class/race that form the basis of the different builds. Remember, as the previous poster stated, the charop stuff is almost entirely written from the perspective of "how can I make a character that does loads of damage", but the better posters also will at least touch on factors that are relevant to other aspects of playing the character (at least in combat and usually they will at least point out where you have leeway to boost them in other ways like skills).
The weakness with charop is that generally they have a hard time assessing any of the other possible advantages to a build, like how it works with the rest of the party or what the implications of its way of working are on tactics of both the party and the monsters.
BRV is the best example of the failings of charop. It IS a pretty good build. In the case where the DM is not very imaginative in building encounters, the player uses all the best BRV options, and you are playing in low heroic tier, the BRV fighter (dwarf/BRV/chainmail/hammer/DWT/etc) can seem hard to even damage. A decent DM however will keep said dwarfnaught easily in check, just don't expect to defeat him with soldiers and minions. It is fun to play and fun to fight. So it is a perfectly good option for fighters. And like I said, once you get to paragon tier it can still hold its own, but it starts to show some significant weaknesses (more like the inherent weaknesses start to really matter a lot more).
In any case, the main point, getting back to the original topic, is that there are more than adequate options for all classes in the game and the newer MP fighter options are not really overpowered compared to the PHB ones. In fact if you go with the PHB fighter options in the long run your character will be more deadly than using the MP options. The PHB option fighters however are more powerful because they are better at filling the core fighter role of pulling the enemy off the rest of the party and keeping them occupied. Feats like Heavy Blade Opportunist, Polearm Momentum, etc coupled with powers like Footwork Lure and using glaives (for 2H) or bastard swords (for 1H+S) will produce very nice and sometimes even almost ridiculously good fighters.
Like any system with a lot of options 4e has better and worse ways to build characters. A brand new player with no experience who isn't familiar with a lot of the details is likely to build adequate but not outstanding characters. Adding splat book options does provide a very slight overall powerup to the classes covered, but mostly what it does is bring all the builds for those classes more to par with each other. For example:
Fighters - MP definitely boosts fighters some, mainly do to a few new feat options that increase their ability to lock down enemies. The difference is not too great, but combined with AV weapons and tempest you may notice a few moderate problems.
Rangers - MP really does nothing much for this class. The beast master option is about equal to the two PHB options. Again there are a couple of feats that will help them some, but not a lot. Certain AV weapons will also give them some help, a great bow for instance is obviously superior to a long bow, but the difference is not game changing.
Warlords - MP again provides a bit of an effectiveness boost due to a wider variety of power choices and there is a new warlord build which is fun but not really superior to the existing ones.
Rogues - Again, MP provides a few options, mostly the feat Distance Advantage, that improve range attack rogues (which kind of needed it). The new Ruthless Ruffian build option is nice but not overpowered.
Likewise if you assess the overall effect of the AP book on Arcane classes you will find a similar pattern. Dual Implement use and the other feat based meta-magic stuff plus the new implement options and a better selection of powers will allow a lot greater variety of builds and a slight power increase overall for all the Arcane classes, but overall they are not really much stronger than before.
The main effect you will see for inexperienced players with any of the splat books is that it is more likely the player will end up with a viable set of options to follow even if they haven't got a very optimized character simply because whatever they build, if it is fairly reasonable to start with, will have some viable path to get stronger. The most powerful PHB based builds are still on a par with any of those you can make by adding in a splat book.
It's not a matter of if you're talking to newbies or veterans. Your professor needs an in depth understanding of his field to teach freshmen, no? There's no harm in knowing more about a subject even if you're teaching newbies.
Not at uOttawa they don't
(Well, to be fair, most did, but one wasn't ever a Doctor yet. :P )In any case, the main point, getting back to the original topic, is that there are more than adequate options for all classes in the game[...]
Actually, I thought the agreement was "all but Cleric and Paladin." Then again, I'm getting Divine Power, so that should, (hopefully) fix that. If we start before then, they can just add the "feature" to their character, as some suggested, because we won't be that far into things by then either way.
Thanks for the imput, I think I have my list for the Players now.
You're overthinking it. Just take out the "Build Options" section, and the classes are all the same. The "Build Options" section are just suggestions for making different types of characters for that class. These are simply examples of how to make a character with the choices that are available within each class.
Actually, they're not all the same. That folks have agreed on. What's disagreed on is if you an actually count a difference in build which is only effected by ability selection as a different way that the Class can be presented mechanically.
As listed here:
The class options, so to speak, for each class in the PHB are as follows.
-Cleric: None Really - Channel Divinity I suspect was supposed to be the option
-Fighter: Fighter Weapon Talent - Chose either 1h or 2h weapons and gain a +1 to hit
-Paladin: None really - same boat as the cleric
-Ranger - Two Weapon Fighting or Archery
-Rogue - Gain str bonus to SA or gain cha bonus to AC
-Warlock - Pacts
-Warlord - Action point healing or action point bonus to attack
-Wizard - Implements
The PHB II classes each have their own mechanical differences as do the Power books additions.
Actually, they're not all the same. That folks have agreed on. What's disagreed on is if you an actually count a difference in build which is only effected by ability selection as a different way that the Class can be presented mechanically.
As listed here:
The PHB II classes each have their own mechanical differences as do the Power books additions.
They're the same in that they all have relatively well balanced features, regardless of the number of them or the mechanical differences within them.
Class Features don't have to be specific to a Build Option. They CAN be, as is seen with some types of classes. The Build Option is just a name that one can use to more clearly define the style of the character - like a Two-Blade Ranger for the type of Fighting Style feature. It's just a name, like the Rose. It doesn't have a mechanical difference other than the one the character is already having to choose for his class. You could call him a Tempest Technique Ranger and it would make no mechanical difference because he'd still have to choose the 2-blade style under the Fighting Style feature.
While Paladin and Cleric don't have features that have a particular choice, they do have the Channel Divinity feature/power in which they choose 1/e what 'style' they wish to employ. It's actually a more diverse option than is allowed to other classes, particularly if the character takes the appropriate Channel Divinity feat for their own god.
While Paladin and Cleric don't have features that have a particular choice, they do have the Channel Divinity feature/power in which they choose 1/e what 'style' they wish to employ. It's actually a more diverse option than is allowed to other classes, particularly if the character takes the appropriate Channel Divinity feat for their own god.
Sort of. In theory it is more flexible both per-encounter and build-wise because you can retrain CD feats whereas standard class features are one time choices. The build-wise flexibility though was kind of nerfed by the fact that CD feats are pretty much universally dismal. There are a couple of exceptions though, like RRoT. Most of the rest are just not worth a feat slot. My guess is that may change with the release of DP, but who can say for sure...