| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| #1mcnormalguyApr 06, 2008 11:38:20 | Hello, my group is starting up a new level one campaign next Saturday because of a massive TPK due to our own....lack of smarts (don’t drink and game kids). I decided to take a different approach to the game from a Fighter to a Wizard, and lone behold, it is more complicated than I gave it credit for. Only two questions so far though. 1. Can a wizard specialize in more than one group of spells, currently I am trying to specialize to be a "Conjurer/Divinationer/Evoker" and in turn give up everything else. Is this possible, why/why not? 2. I'm a half-orc with an Orc Double Ax, theory being that if we are walking through an unknown area and get ambushed, I look more like a barbarian (I don’t wear robes, normal clothing) and that they will go after someone more easy to kill, like our rogue. I realize that they will figure it out when I start shooting fire that them, but the intention is to just have them not going straight for me. Am I insane, why/why not? Thank you for your time in reading my questions, McNormalGuy |
| #2windscar18_dupApr 06, 2008 12:17:10 | 1) I'm pretty sure "no", because I recall that it says somewhere that it says "A school". Don't have my books on me though. However, even if there's the case that you can choose to specialize more than once, I wouldn't do it. After giving up Evocation and Enchantment, giving up more is slightly difficult. 2) If you have the strength, I don't see why not, but, depending on your DM, they might get Spot versus your Disguise, and then the game would be up. Also, if you're at low level, you'd have to drop your orc double axe to switch to a weapon you can use, if you have to. At mid-high levels, it's not really a problem because you won't need it (and there's Weapon Shift spell). |
| #3bozwevialApr 06, 2008 13:03:14 | 1. You can't specialize in more than one school. You can become a focused specialist (Complete Mage), but not specialize in multiple schools. You also can't take levels in Conjurer and then levels in Diviner. 2. Insane for not wanting to get stabbed when you have d4 Hit Dice? No. Do keep another, more suitable weapon handy, however. |
| #4drmorganesApr 06, 2008 15:50:43 | 1. Can a wizard specialize in more than one group of spells, currently I am trying to specialize to be a "Conjurer/Divinationer/Evoker" and in turn give up everything else. Is this possible, why/why not? No. Short answer is because the rules say specialization applies to a single school of magic only. The longer answer is, "Why would you want to?" Unless your DM allows the variant specialist wizards, forever losing access to TWO schools of magic is almost never worth simply gaining an additional spell slot. If you insist on Core specialist, Diviner is generally considered the best option. Lose ONE school of magic (generally Evocation) and have the ability to always have a divination on hand when you truly need one. Specializing in Evocation is just a bad idea. Energy damage from evocations isn't all that hot (sic) to begin with, doesn't scale well, is often subject to Spell Resistance, and is frequently reduced straight off by easy-to-get energy resistances. Conjurer is a better option (especially with the Conjurer variants). You get to summon other stuff to fight for you AND can still dish out enough direct damage via the various SR-bypassing Orb spells to make an Evoker cry. Losing access to FIVE schools of magic is just not worth it. 2. I'm a half-orc with an Orc Double Ax, theory being that if we are walking through an unknown area and get ambushed, I look more like a barbarian (I don’t wear robes, normal clothing) and that they will go after someone more easy to kill, like our rogue. I realize that they will figure it out when I start shooting fire that them, but the intention is to just have them not going straight for me. Am I insane, why/why not? We have neither the behavioral data nor training to appropriately comment on your mental stability. If we keep with the average, however, studies show that folks who play RPGs have lower rates of suicide and various other forms of negative social behavior than the national average. Odds are you are not insane. :D Your character is another issue entirely. Racial Intelligence and Charisma penalties aside, if you don't mind dealing with Arcane Spell Failure for wearing armor, it's actually a good idea for wizards and sorcerers to not look like wizards and sorcerers. As a DM, though, I would allow NPCs a Spot Check vs your Disguise Check to notice something odd about your character. Remember that there are non-proficiency penalties for using armor and weapons outside of those typical for your class. These penalties are there to reflect your lack of familiarity with these items; it's reasonable to assume that unfamiliarity would manifest in a number of small ways outside of combat. Also, intelligent opponents will go after the biggest threat first. In the absence of any obvious spellcasters, the melee monster (e.g., barbarian) is likely to be targeted first. Toning it down a bit to look more like a rogue may be a better idea. Rogues use daggers and light crossbows, too... Keep in mind that you're not going to get any special benefits for doing this. There are no mechanics for "surprise casting" of spells (beguiler's cloaked casting aside), and once you DO cast a spell your cover is blown anyway. So... is it a good idea? Unlikely. Properly done you may be able to delay being targeted until your first action in the first round of combat. If you overdo things, however, the spell your party desperately needed to save their butts may fizzle. The folks over on the CO board will tell you that even 5% ASF is too great a risk (leather armor carries 10% ASF). Can you afford to have 1 in 20 of your spells fail? How about 1 in 10? Can your party afford to have any? |
| #5drmorganesApr 06, 2008 15:57:57 | 1. You can't specialize in more than one school. You can become a focused specialist (Complete Mage), but not specialize in multiple schools. You also can't take levels in Conjurer and then levels in Diviner. Actually, you can't take levels in either. "Conjurer" and "Diviner" aren't classes at all. They are special-case levels of Wizard. Since you must specify your specialization at Wizard Level 1, and can never change your selected specialization, there is no way within the rules to take a level of "Conjurer", then a level of "Diviner", followed by a level of "Evoker". That said... Always talk to your DM. You never know what tricks we have up our sleeves... Back in the days of 2nd Edition AD&D, a nifty little series of sourcebooks was released. I forget the titles specifically, but they introduced the concept of "kits" (which in my opinion became the forerunner of the 3.x character building process). Kits allowed you to custom-build your class abilities. Each class came with a certain number of kit points that you would then use to purchase various class abilities. I used this concept to build an elven thief/wizard that that traded the ability to cast certain schools of magic for special abilities, including the ability to sense magic and cast spells in armor. If your DM has access to these older books, perhaps he'd be willing to work with you on such a concept. |
| #6crimsondeathApr 06, 2008 19:57:22 | Half-orc wizard? That Intelligence penalty is going to be painful. Also note that you won't look quite as much like a Barbarian if you're not wearing armor. Monk's robes might be a better disguise. In which case you'll be just as plausible with a quarterstaff or unarmed. The only way I know of to specialize in multiple schools is the Changeling Wizard substitution level in Races of Eberron, which allows a Changeling Wizard to drop three schools in order to specialize in Transmutation and Illusion together. |
| #7mcnormalguyApr 06, 2008 21:39:24 | The folks over on the CO board will tell you that even 5% ASF is too great a risk (leather armor carries 10% ASF). Can you afford to have 1 in 20 of your spells fail? How about 1 in 10? Can your party afford to have any? I wouldn't be wearing leather armor though, was going to go with basically commoner's clothing. The ideas of going with monk's robes mentioned by chrimsondeath is a good one though (since I don’t think that I could mess up wearing the robes where I would with the ax, and would also save me my starting gold from buying the ax. Also, thanks to everyone who posted, the specializing is very clear now :D . |
| #8Treantmonklvl20Apr 06, 2008 22:03:46 | If you want to go with the disguise route - I would strongly consider Dwarf over Half-Orc, as it still fits the stereotype, but the stat modifiers are far more pleasant to swallow as a wizard. Specialization is one school I'm afraid - though you can uber-specialize with the Focused Specialist route from complete mage. If you really want to have the enemies attack someone else - the best way I've found to achieve that is to ensure that you always have an ally between you and them. It's the standard wizard trick - and it's become the standard for a reason... |
| #9crimsondeathApr 06, 2008 23:50:32 | If you want to go with the disguise route - I would strongly consider Dwarf over Half-Orc, as it still fits the stereotype, but the stat modifiers are far more pleasant to swallow as a wizard. "Pleasant to swallow"? That's an understatement. In Core, the only two races with better Wizard stats are Gnomes and Grey Elves. (I'm not telling you not to play a half-orc though. I just don't want you to be surprised by what happens if you try it.) |
| #10mcnormalguyApr 07, 2008 14:30:19 | (I'm not telling you not to play a half-orc though. I just don't want you to be surprised by what happens if you try it.) I understand that I will have an -2 int as a half-orc, but this will only bring me down to an int of 16 at first level to which I can place ability points in as I gain levels. The main reason that I want to make a half-orc is because it is uncommon. In a party that has never made anything besides humans, elfs, and half-elfs, I feel the need for some change. And what would be more of a change than some green skined guy showing up. ![]() If there are more penalties than the -2 int please post them so I am ready for them down the road. Sincerely, McNormalGuy |
| #11bozwevialApr 07, 2008 15:55:44 | Actually, you can't take levels in either. "Conjurer" and "Diviner" aren't classes at all. They are special-case levels of Wizard. Since you must specify your specialization at Wizard Level 1, and can never change your selected specialization, there is no way within the rules to take a level of "Conjurer", then a level of "Diviner", followed by a level of "Evoker". Right, conjurer and diviner are simply another name for a wizard specialized in those respective schools. I find that most players prefer to write those on their sheets than Wizard (Conjuration) 5. |
| #12rebel7284Apr 07, 2008 16:13:17 | I understand that I will have an -2 int as a half-orc, but this will only bring me down to an int of 16 at first level to which I can place ability points in as I gain levels. The main reason that I want to make a half-orc is because it is uncommon. In a party that has never made anything besides humans, elfs, and half-elfs, I feel the need for some change. And what would be more of a change than some green skined guy showing up. -2 INT = lower spell save DCs. -2 INT = less bonus spells -2 INT = that much closer to a ray of stupidity taking you out of the fight -2 INT = less skill points to enter the good prestige classes +2 STR = you can carry more? who cares... If you want to not get hit, play a conjurer and take the alternate class feature in unearthed arcana that allows you to sacrifice your familiar to be able to teleport 10ft as an immediate action INT mod per day (oh look, more INT matters!) As for giving up schools of magic for more power: Focused specialist from Unearthed Arcana has already been brought up and is reasonably good. Incantatrix also makes you give up another school in exchange for being one of the most broken prestige classes in any splat book. So focused Conjurer (abrupt jaunt alternate feature) 5, Incantatrix 10, Initiate of the seven veils 5 OR archmage 5 Give up Evocation, Enchantment, Illusion, Necromancy (always give up evocation, the school has exactly 1 overpowered spell - contigency, while the other schools have dozens of broken spells.) |
| #13crimsondeathApr 07, 2008 16:14:50 | I understand that I will have an -2 int as a half-orc, but this will only bring me down to an int of 16 at first level to which I can place ability points in as I gain levels. The main reason that I want to make a half-orc is because it is uncommon. In a party that has never made anything besides humans, elfs, and half-elfs, I feel the need for some change. And what would be more of a change than some green skined guy showing up. OK, you seem to know what you're doing. If you're interestied in using a race from the Monster Manual, a Goblin might make a decent Wizard. |
| #14drmorganesApr 07, 2008 16:53:31 | Actually, the difference between a half-orc wizard and another (non-grey elf) demihuman wizard is 2 points of INT. That's a net modifier difference of -1. Assuming point-buy ability score generation, a pre-racially modified score of 18, and beginning character Level 1 (and we must assume this to have a level comparison), the half-orc will have one fewer Level 1 spells known, 1 less skill point per level, and save DCs 1 worse. He'll have the same number of spells per day, the same bonus spells, etc. The bonus spells won't be an issue until after 7th level. All in all, the -1 save DC will hurt the worst, but that's not insurmountable. I've played several casters that started the game with casting ability score of 16 or less, and they worked out just fine. |
| #15crimsondeathApr 07, 2008 18:56:35 | I've played a couple of casters that start with a 16 in their casting stat, but in point-buy games they have other stats that are a bit higher in order to make up for it... Still, it's an interesting idea, and I wish McNormalGuy the best of luck. |