I crafted many of my own items as well, further increasing this starting value by 57,500gp in value and causing me to have increase in wealth of 135% or 118,870gp, with an equipment worth of 206,870gp, compared to the 88,000gp standard. That does seem rather large for a total Exp cost of 7,737, however Wizards has never expressed concern over item crafting the way they have over polymorph or other potential game breaking mechanics. DMG, DMG II, and Complete Arcane express no concern over such crafting but rather encourage it. In this particular game, the DM intends to bump the CR, but his attempts to seek advice on the subject labeled me a power gamer though I use only the basic core rules in my character. Further, almost all (100,875gp, or 84.9%) of the money gained went into an RP fluff demanded Blessed Book of 650 spells, most of which my character will never use (golem strike?). The total effect of the extra gold is fluff, which I feel debunks claims of munchkinism. However this does seem like a rather pertinent question as standard, core forms of item crafting seem breakable. The essential question remains, if you can’t use these feats and Exp to save significant amounts of money, what’s the point of ever having them?
Also, I want to know why that book was demanded by fluff.
Psst. Update to 4E. This is one of the numerous problems of 3.5 that they fixed with 4. :P
Along with the fun. They fixed all that fun you have to deal with in 3.5e; 4e is nice, methodical, and uninteresting.
The problem here isn't the edition. It's that the DM doesn't know what he's doing; crafting items should have nothing to do with CR. "Special" DMs has been a problem noone's been able to fix...ever.
In my particular case, I had a DM with a starting six player 12th level campaign in which I played a mage with the craft wondrous item feat.
There's your issue. The craft item feats aren't really designed for a party starting at high level, they are more for use during a campaign in which you have adequate time to spare for crafting.
So, what is the point of crafting? Ever.
In the right circumstance, the point is exactly what you mentioned: saving money at the cost of xp and time.
I assume you spent all that money on the spells in the book not the book itself. Are you a guildmaster or something?
Have you tried pointing this out to the dm that all your excess cash was spent on spells you won't use and that +5% to character wealth doesn't put you even close to the next levels wbl.
As to how this is supposed to work, much like wish, disjunction, fabricate and other spells of infinite power this is where you and your GM are going to have to sit down and decide where your group and campaign are going to draw the line. My groups usually raised CR or just assumed player victory (or both near the end).
If you adjusting wealth to equal the wealth by level chart then the saving money problem vanishes.
If you don't adjust then the sunder tactic comes with a hefty price tag.
Let's not turn this into an edition war, please. There's enough of that on these forums in other places. The OP has an issue with 4e, so let's try to keep the answers focused on the system he uses.
Actually, it's a 3.5 question. Just sayin ;)
Actually, it's a 3.5 question. Just sayin ;)
That's clearly what I meant. :P Why the heck did I write 4e there?
Along with the fun. They fixed all that fun you have to deal with in 3.5e; 4e is nice, methodical, and uninteresting.
The problem here isn't the edition. It's that the DM doesn't know what he's doing; crafting items should have nothing to do with CR. "Special" DMs has been a problem noone's been able to fix...ever.
Ohh, potshots at 4E again Corvus? I know you'll go for the "He did it first excuse" but wow, seriously man.
Psst. Update to 4E. This is one of the numerous problems of 3.5 that they fixed with 4. :P
People should resist the urge to reply to 3.5 advice seeking threads with any variation of "Just switch to 4E," "Just play 4E," and/or "Just update to 4E," etc.
That's clearly what I meant. :P Why the heck did I write 4e there?
See? IT POISONS THE BRAIN
Ohh, potshots at 4E again Corvus? I know you'll go for the "He did it first excuse" but wow, seriously man.
I don't need an excuse to be right. Your reactions just make it entertaining to be right.
In short, the crafting rules allowed me to make a walking target for a nice Disjunction spell. BUT, since I mostly used my character as the most efficient 5th wheel, my DM just saw me as a spotter, not a game breaker.
I think the reaction from your DM was a knee-jerk response. And remember, you did also practically steal money from your allies and hoarded money at the end. I plotted it out that I was completely wiped on money, had to borrow from the money I saved my allies for switching to Geiko. I think your DM was in the wrong for taking the money from you, but you did kinda play against the party by taking their money.
To fix this, if you are willing to take more XP loss. Ask if you can have more "craft time" and forge more of your ally items. And no, do not make things that are massive. Go for the more innocuous things like the Everlasting Rations or Handy Haversacks. Ask to make those type of things for party members. Try to craft skill bonus items. It is quite silly that a large sum of money was taken from you, but it is also silly to expect for you to walk out the door at the open of game with many magic items and a ton of gold.
Take the edition war somewhere else, please? This isn't the place for it.
THere's no place for war, but yet, it rages on.
DMG, DMG II, and Complete Arcane express no concern over such crafting but rather encourage it.
That is because these stupilate that you start adventuring with the appropriate funds and xp. You've assumed that you can take this "budget" and re-invest before the adventure starts. While this seems may seem reasonable to you, notice that this approach means that you start the adventure with a different set-up in terms of assets and xp than is suggested.
Really, at the start of the adventure it doesn't matter if your characters has bought, received or created all the items he is carrying: the total value is not to exceed that specified by the GM.
-DF
Crafting (magic item) feats mess with this balance of power, however. When the DM is giving (in the form of treasure) magic items or having characters purchase them at full market price then cost (i.e. wealth) maintains the balance. As soon as a PC starts to make (and sell) items, especially to other party members, things go awry.
A PC with Craft could, at the cost of about a level's worth of xp, make all the magic items for the entire party, sell the items to them at cost, and effectively double the power of the entire party, all for the cost of a feat (and a level's worth of xp). Not a bad deal for the party, but a real headache for the DM.
If you're going to use a Craft intensive character then you and your DM are going to have come up with rules that separate 'gold piece value' from 'power value.' A +1 sword, for example, costs 2K gp to buy, but 1K gp to make. The power of the item is the same, but the 'cost' is radically different, and only gets moreso the more powerful, and therefore 'expensive' the magic item.
I have a ruleset to address this that I use in my campaigns that I'd be happy to share with you.
Hope this helps.
It puts an end to the balance issue by making every single magic item destructible.
And just to trigger the flame....
Is anyone else aware that the base rules in 3.5 about magic items and UMD is that if you fumble it, or even come CLOSE to fumbling it, you take 2d6 damage?
And just to trigger the flame....
Is anyone else aware that the base rules in 3.5 about magic items and UMD is that if you fumble it, or even come CLOSE to fumbling it, you take 2d6 damage?
Only if you're activating it blindly. And in that case, 2d6 damage is only one of the potential effects, with "affecting another target" being the other option available.
In addition to that, if you roll a 1 on your UMD check and fail to activate the item, you can't attempt to activate that same item again for 24 hours.
Only if you're activating it blindly. And in that case, 2d6 damage is only one of the potential effects, with "affecting another target" being the other option available.
In addition to that, if you roll a 1 on your UMD check and fail to activate the item, you can't attempt to activate that same item again for 24 hours.
Definition in text: "using it blindly" seems to refer to a first usage of a new item to which the character does not have prior exposure. Once a character has used the item successfully, they gain a +2 to UMD checks with that device in the future.
Additionally, the "option" available is actually based on roll direction. The best fail just hits the wrong target. The 2d6 is effectively "double fumble".
I'm developing re-useable critical hit and fumble tables as my current campaign proceeds, so I'll post those for the DMs and Players here that like a more "hardcore' approach to D&D.
As for failure... well, let's just quote:
If you fail by 9 or less, you can’t activate the device. If you fail by 10 or more, you suffer a mishap. A mishap means that magical energy gets released but it doesn’t do what you wanted it to do. The default mishaps are that the item affects the wrong target or that uncontrolled magical energy is released, dealing 2d6 points of damage to you. This mishap is in addition to the chance for a mishap that you normally run when you cast a spell from a scroll that you could not otherwise cast yourself.
Nothing in that quote says when you affect the wrong target and when you do 2d6 damage to yourself. I have a hunch the intention is that if the item has a targeted effect (wand of cure light wounds for example) then you affect the wrong target; if the item has an area effect (wand of fireball, for example) you suck some damage. But that's just a hunch about what they intended.
Not quite. You can, for example, activate the same wand blindly for all 50 charges. Doing so would mean you never bothered to learn the activation command, and therefore had to always make a DC 25 UMD check to get the wand to work, though as you said after the first time you get a +2. (by comparison, if you know the command word, the DC is 20.)
As for failure... well, let's just quote:
Nothing in that quote says when you affect the wrong target and when you do 2d6 damage to yourself. I have a hunch the intention is that if the item has a targeted effect (wand of cure light wounds for example) then you affect the wrong target; if the item has an area effect (wand of fireball, for example) you suck some damage. But that's just a hunch about what they intended.
Ah. SRD. Land of not the books. Though either way you shape it, a "mishap" is still a form of fumble. It just has a qualifier.
Additionally, you must know the command word to avoid the fail. THat sounds easy and a purchased wand you'd think would have it with it, but a discovered wand deep within a cave is a different animal.
I do know that in original text, it's roll-based. It's based on the range from which the spell fails (i.e. "how many did you miss it by?"). If I can be arsed, I'll dig it up out of the PDF's in my portable drive, but atm I'm rebalancing some things on my WoW server.
If you fail by 9 or less you can't activate the device. If you fail by 10 or more, you suffer a mishap. A mishap means that magical energy gets released but it doesn't do what you wanted it to do. The DM determines the result of a mishap, as with scroll mishaps. The default mishaps are that the item affects the wrong target or that the uncontrolled magical energy is released, dealing 2d6 points of damage to you. This mishap is in addition to the chance for a mishap that you normally run when you cast a spell from a scroll that you could not otherwise cast yourself [/u](see the Dungeon Master's Guide)[/u].
Scroll mishaps are on page 238 of the DMG, and nothing there determines the mishap based on the amount by which you missed; the DM selects.
As for learning the command word... you're correct that there's a good chance of learning it when you buy the wand, but it's not a given. Of course, you know the command word for wands you crafted. Then there's some skill checks and spells. This text is from the SRD, though the same passage appears on page 213 of the DMG.
The Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (history) skills might be useful in helping to identify command words or deciphering clues regarding them. A successful check against DC 30 is needed to come up with the word itself. If that check is failed, succeeding on a second check (DC 25) might provide some insight into a clue.
The spells identify and analyze dweomer both reveal command words.
That is because these stupilate that you start adventuring with the appropriate funds and xp. You've assumed that you can take this "budget" and re-invest before the adventure starts. While this seems may seem reasonable to you, notice that this approach means that you start the adventure with a different set-up in terms of assets and xp than is suggested.
Really, at the start of the adventure it doesn't matter if your characters has bought, received or created all the items he is carrying: the total value is not to exceed that specified by the GM.
When you begin a camping at 12th level, the starting gold and exp that you get is intended to represent the gold and exp of the 12 levels of adventuring your character is presumed to have done to reach 12th level. If our campaign had started at first level and worked its way up to 12th, I would still have been able to turn the 528,000 gold that six characters would win in treasure in those levels into 662,212 gold worth of equipment by turning the 66,000 exp I would have gotten into 56,000 exp. The result is the same. Even if we play 1st through 12th, we would have more valuable equipment than a twelfth level party normally does, and by the same proportion. There is no way to effectively craft that doesn’t do the same.
Also, in response to Olandew,
And remember, you did also practically steal money from your allies and hoarded money at the end. I plotted it out that I was completely wiped on money, had to borrow from the money I saved my allies for switching to Geiko. I think your DM was in the wrong for taking the money from you, but you did kinda play against the party by taking their money.
the DM didn’t take the gold away; he just complained and plans to up the CR. But as to the charging for my crafting services, I just charged fair compensation for the loss of my twelfth level, which is one of the sweetest of all levels (except for 17th, maybe) which delayed a feat and ability point (my INT mod is only +7
). NPC crafters charge for their time and exp and I charged less than they did, saving myself and my party a nice cut of gold and netting myself an overdone spell book. (Obdurium bound, water proof, fire proof, Baccob’s Blessed, Arcane Locked with 650 spells inside.)Plus, I did misread what you wrote. I thought your DM had mandated the book of worthless spells, not that you decided to make one. I personally think that an increase in power level as you have obtained might have been mitigated by an increase in items, but you squandered it on a book.
And... well... if your character in your current signature is your actual character, no, you are not core only. Geometer is not in my DMG, and I have no clue where it came from. Neither is Golem Strike in my PHB for that matter.
Ever.
You used the feats to put your party ahead on the perceived power curve.
Your reward is to fight tougher monsters worth more xp.
Sounds like a win to me!
I don't object to the raising of the CR, in fact I think traditional CRs are too low, but it brought up the question of how to use crafting without distorting wealth levels. If the DM compensates for crafting with proportionately reduced treasure, to maintain DMG wealth level guidlines, then crafting offers no benefit to players. If he doesn't, characters have more power than they should, due to items.
Though most of the spells in the book are not going to be used, my character is devoted to finding all spells anyway.
If the DM compensates for crafting with proportionately reduced treasure, to maintain DMG wealth level guidlines, then crafting offers no benefit to players..
I disagree. Even if the overall value of your character is equal, with crafting you gain the benefit of having the exact items you want.
Such corrections would take place over the span of a couple of levels ussually, so the players still get a temperary gain from the items, the simple act of leveling generally takes care of the issue as the DM awards what loot the party needs to advance.
But there are other advantages to crafting magical items, and things that can be crafted without imbalancing the game.
-Scrolls and wands for example are useful expendables that can be crafted that don't have too large an impact in the game's balance and thus is not something the DM really needs to account for. It is safe to assume that having scolls and wands are part an parcel of a wizard's base abilities and such consumables shouldn't really factor into their expected wealth by level.
-Unique items that aren't in the books. Players aren't restricted to creating items that are listed, these are just what are the general standard that they find in loot and can be purchased, especially Wonderous Items. Customized and unique items have their own value to a player.
-Impact on power is a big deal. I will consider adjusting treasure drops if the party is manufacturing Rings of Protection and Amulets of Health etc. Items that directly translate into power. Rings of Jumping, Cloaks of Many Items, Bag of Endless Caltrops, Wand of Unseen Servant.... I would consider this as being dismissable and not effecting game balance.
-Availability. Some DMs don't like the idea of Magic Stores, and obtaining magical items with such a DM leaves you at the mercy of random treasure tables. With the absence of any obtainable way to buy such magical items in such games, the books provide ways for the players to create their own magical items. When you can't buy a particular item, then being able to make it yourself is of infinate value. part if the reason for these rules is to account for different playstyles (such as a game where magic items are hard to come by)
-Having your Wealth by level is meaningless if that wealth is made up of useless items, so being able to create your own gear is worth more. Basically your Wealth by level guideline consists of alot of random loot, depending on how the DM places treasure. Often the players get alot of junk from this, and a hodgepodge of gear, some of it not optimal, then they buy select gear from the coins/gems and magical items that they sell at less then full value. This is why an organically leveled character and geared character is so different then one which is made at a level with entirely purchaced gear from the wealth by level guidelines.
Random Treasure could include magical effects and items of dubious value, such as armor with Slick, a Dagger of Returning for someone who never throws their dagger, these effects of dubious value add to your Wealth by Level but in reality are wasteful. Making your own gear, rather then being dependent on the DM is a huge advantage over using only what is made available, since you have fewer effects of such dubious value. Would you waste the coin on adding Slick to your armor, or making a dagger of returning +3 if you never needed to throw it? If you made those items customer, then you would likely have chosen more effective effects for the same price. So you get more value for your money making your items.
Along with the fun. They fixed all that fun you have to deal with in 3.5e; 4e is nice, methodical, and uninteresting.
Seriously, man, give it a rest. It's getting really pathetic.
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
Also, ICFs allow you to cherry pick some of your gear.
The rules for crafting magic items assume that you still end up with the "wealth by level guidelines" amount of magic items, regardless of how you obtained those items.
Did you end up being way outside of the recommended wealth by level guidelines? If the answer is yes, then your DM was right to call you out on it.
The rules for crafting magic items assume that you still end up with the "wealth by level guidelines" amount of magic items, regardless of how you obtained those items.
Calling the player out for it is rarely the answer. This is something that the DM should be accounting for on a continual basis while handing out treasure awards, and adjusting accordingly. True Crafting can put a player ahead of the game as for Wealth-by-level-guidelines, but adjusting treasure in the process of leveling as the game continues will generally take care of this. It's not the players fault here, but rather the DM's fault for continuing to hand out too much treasure and not taking it into account.
The problem here isn't the edition. It's that the DM doesn't know what he's doing; crafting items should have nothing to do with CR.
No, the problem here is that the DM tipped his hand.
There's alot to be said for knowing when not to mention something to the players. In this case the DM should have simply observed the parties increased capabilities & adjusted things as needed in order to challenge them.
No explanation needed.
Eventually of course some bright player will notice the increase. When that happens you just tell them that you thought x would make a good challenge based upon how they play, what gear they have, etc.
Personally I don't think crafting exists to save (or even make) the PCs $.
I view it as an option that's intended to let you/help you play various types of characters. Many others though seem to take it too far....