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| #1MethenNov 05, 2013 8:45:38 | Why are players not allowed the same freedom of creating their characters in the same matter that the Dm has of creating npcs When the Dm creates a npc they do not role up ability scores and all that they simply give the npc what ever they want them to have, to me that has always been a very unfair asvantage of the dm... |
| #2CentauriNov 05, 2013 9:29:07 | Where to begin?
First of all, rolling ability scores hasn't been the norm for a long time.
Second of all, it's not about advantage. The DM isn't (or shouldn't be) trying to beat you, but to come up with interesting situations for you. Random rolls don't necessarily lend themselves to interesting situations, so the DM is advised to create things from whole cloth when needed.
Along those lines, it's not about what the /DM/ wants, but what the players are going to want. Do the players want a town that's populated by a plausible group of NPCs, or do they want whatever the dice tell the DM? What if the DM isn't able to roll up a blacksmith, or a baron?
Finally, the rules are for creating heroic PCs, not for creating the mundane populace of a world. The rules are not the laws of physics, biology and sociology. That's not what they're for.
Is your DM actually doing something that makes the game unenjoyable for you? Some DMs give their players a lot of freedom. For some this rewards the entire group in spades. For others, this results in ruination. What would you do if you could make any character you wanted? Would you automatically win the game? Would you engage only in the challenges you enjoy, and short circuit everything else? Would you make the game challenging for yourself? Whatever your preference, it's something you should talk to your DM about. |
| #3KruskNov 05, 2013 14:56:18 | What edition are you playing? 3.x requires the DM to use a similar method as the PCs for all monsters, and you can quickly do math to determine if it is accurate. If the DM does it a different way, you explain that they are wrong and point them to the right way. If they resist or don't like it your DM is cheating. Have a conversation with them and the group. Many groups let the DM cheat. It seems like you don't like that. Try to convince them of your opinion. If they agree, congrats. If they don't, get over it or leave.
4e - you are basically accurate in your description, but thats not the problem. The problem is that its hard for a DM to balance encounters for the PCs without just "making something up."
Previous editions fall into the "DM makes something arbitrary up" catagory. Usually with an added "and also make sure to be mean to the players for daring to question it" at the end. |
| #4iserithNov 05, 2013 15:07:27 |
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| #5DaBeerdsNov 05, 2013 18:05:57 | As I was writing a different response somthing dawned on me. When a player creates a character (whenever he/she enters the game) he/she does not fully know what the DM is going to throw at the party. Session Zero should give the players some general idea but very little in the specific.
On the other hand, when a DM creates a significant NPC he/she knows exactly what the party makeup is, and can therefore tailor an NPC to the party's weaknesses. This is an advantage. But one that, in my opinion, only a bad DM (who believes in DM vs PCs) would take advantage of all the time (In my opinion, it is OK to tailor to weaknesses once in a while). A better DM also tailors NPCs to the party's strengths so that party members have the opportunity to shine. However, it is up to the player to figure out it is his/her time to shine.
Methen, if your DM is tailoring to weaknesses too much, then a conversation is in order. Otherwise, I agree with Centauri in that the DM is trying to create interesting situations and to do that NPCs need to be tailored. |
| #6CentauriNov 05, 2013 19:48:44 | Players should /want/ the DM to tailor to their characters' weaknesses as much as possible. That's how tense situations arise, whether in stories or in games. D&D simply gives no incentive for that to happen, however. |
| #7DaBeerdsNov 05, 2013 23:16:50 |
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| #8CentauriNov 05, 2013 23:47:22 |
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| #9Man_in_the_Funny_HatNov 06, 2013 7:38:12 |
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| #10KruskNov 06, 2013 13:51:33 |
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| #11iserithNov 06, 2013 14:09:01 |
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| #12MethenNov 06, 2013 18:28:35 | Actually I just think players should have the same power in creating their characters as the dm has when creating their npcs...
Example:
Dm: Where did your character get that staff of magi Player: I just gave it to him Dm: with out even earing it ? Player: yep... Dm: you cant do that... Player: why? Dm: you have to earn stuff like that... Player why ? Dm: Thats just the way it is its called game balance... Player: really ? Dm: Yep... Play: I see... Player: Mind telling me what that npc you are playing did to earn that Girdle of storm giant strength? Dm: Ummm well ummm nothing I just gave it to him, The dm is allowed to do that... Player: Why? Dm: Well they just are... Player: So much for game balance...
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| #13Mad_JackNov 06, 2013 18:54:07 |
What happens when everyone has complete license to give their character anything they want and do anything they want is that everyone becomes the DM, and then you have a (theoretically) cooperative storytelling exercise, not a roleplaying game. Individual haracters can't have exactly the same amount of power and control as the DM (i.e., they must be held to rules that the DM isn't) otherwise the game is simply an exercise in yelling, "I hit you!", "No you didn't!", "Yes, I did!", 'Nuh-uh!"... It's the reason we're rolling dice and playing D&D instead of running around in the yard playing Cowboys and Indians. So, why shouldn't I just give my character a magic ring of unlimited wishes, so that I can just conjure up anything I need to overcome any challenge the DM presents to me? Oh and I can fly, because my character's father is Peter Pan. And I'm a God. Because I said so. And I win D&D. Forever. Because if the DM can do it so can I. How far does it go before it gets out of hand? How does "game balance" come to mean that the greatest wizard in the kingdom should never be more powerful than a 1st level adventurer, or that a wizard on his first day out of apprenticeship should be sporting artifacts and casting world-shaking spells just because someone else can do it? Game balance means that the 1st level wizard shouldn't be so powerful that he makes the 10th level fighter obsolete, or that the monsters the 1st level party is facing shouldn't be so powerful that the characters have no chance to defeat them. The game is supposed to be about the characters doing those things that let you get all that cool stuff.
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| #14baldhermitNov 06, 2013 20:17:32 | Also: (quoting Methen)
Player: I just gave it to him <-- couldn't make up a backstory? Dm: with out even earing it ? <--- does not understand how starting gold/equipment works?
Dm: Thats just the way it is its called game balance... <--- what the DM fails to explain is that the game is more enjoyable for ALL players if they all have access to more or less the same resources. Otherwise you will end up with the world strongest man, the worlds most powerful wizard, and several low level characters whose players will soon leave the game.
Player: Mind telling me what that npc you are playing did to earn that Girdle of storm giant strength? Dm: Ummm well ummm nothing I just gave it to him, The dm is allowed to do that... <--- doesn't bode well for your game if even the DM cannot make up some backstory on the fly. And why is an NPC having a magic item, or need for one, other than loot for the PCs?
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| #15CentauriNov 06, 2013 22:34:23 |
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| #16MethenNov 06, 2013 23:05:56 |
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| #17MethenNov 06, 2013 23:08:37 |
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| #18KishriNov 06, 2013 23:35:56 | Actually Methen what you describe happens all the time, just not in D&D games. What you speak of is what happens in chat role playing rooms all the time. Even there some rules exist to stop "Mary Sue" characters (Characters that are all powerful no matter what).
What makes your request difficult is that D&D is a game. The fact that it is a game with defined rules works against the idea of carte blanche character creation. The DM has a different role than the players and thus has freedoms players do not. Likewise, players have freedoms a DM doesn't have.
As far as a DM knowing where an NPC gets their items from? Yes, I often do know where, why and how they got what they have and all that.
All that said, one can do exactly what you describe Methen if all the participants (includes DM) agree to a level of power before making their characters. I have done this in AD&D and 2e with pretty good success. The nature of 3e makes this much more difficult. 4e should pose less problems give it's balanced nature as long as the relative power is balanced among the party. |
| #19cougonNov 07, 2013 4:59:04 | I may be wrong about this, but it seems to me that the OP is concerned about the fairness of NPCs that adventure with the party or with DMPCs made up to adventure with the party. For those kind of characters, I agree that they should be created with the same rules as players, with the appropriate wealth for their level that they earned in adventuring before they met and joined the party. However, this does not apply to regular NPCs. Unless it's a recurring NPC (like someone important in the central city the characters are based out of or a primary antagonist) then it really doesn't matter what they have since they are going to be a) killed and looted for their gear or b) interacted with non-violently for whatever reason. In either case, it's up to the DM to make the interaction interesting and fun, which means that they will give the NPC whatever item or items would be of value to the PCs and/or make the interaction fun. Most of the time, the party won't ever have the opportunity to find out where an NPC got an item, or even care since they're about to take it anyway. As such, forcing the DM to roll up every NPC, regardless of it's roll, just adds more work to the already full plate that a DM usually has. |
| #20CentauriNov 07, 2013 5:56:10 |
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| #21ScatterbrainedNov 07, 2013 9:18:23 |
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| #22MethenNov 07, 2013 9:33:44 | I seem to be confusing some people so I will try to simplify it, What I have a problem with is the dm not meeting the same exact requirements placed on the players, they go on and on about game balance, But in the strictest of sense they has never been any game balance, atleast not by true difinition of the term
When you have one person who can just create anything they want with out having to earn anything and just give that npc character anything they need when ever they needed it, (Example Dms making stuff up on the spot) While the players do not have that ability, then you do not have a Balance game, Its just like I read in one of the old kodt comics, when they told Ba No fair you have to play by the same rules we do, and that I totally agree with, If the Dm expects players to role up characters and to earn everything, as well as to have everything officially written down so it can be verified as to how that character go it, Then the Dm and their Npcs Should also be bound by those exact same rules, if not then the players should have the exact same right as the Dm when it comes to creating their characters, Personally I have never agreed with the system of having dice tell a person how they should be allowed to create their character basically the way they wish to create it, Now I am not saying they should create God like characters in a non God like adventure, But so long as the character stays with in the limits and not get to ridiculous creating super God like characters then I see no problem with it, I have found this allows far more freedom in expression and creation of a character which allows player to bond with a character more then forcing a players to role up a character and allowing the dice to control the results...
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| #23CentauriNov 07, 2013 9:47:10 |
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| #24baldhermitNov 07, 2013 10:14:03 | Methen: you really need to lose the DM vs players perspective. The DM tells a story, throws some challenges your way, as a means to entertain you and himself. If a DM really wanted to kill a party, meteors would fall from the sky / the gods would slams their fists together / the worlds molten core would explode / game over.
What I am still at a loss for is why the DM would give an NPC any kind of special equipment. If I want to create an NPC that for some reason would have a special ability to carry heavy loads, it would be thus. To me, that is no different than deciding the NPC has blond hair, or likes his blue cloth trousers to stay clean.
Game balance exists so that all players have equal opportunity to contribute to the fun. It is not the DMs role, not designed nor desired, that the DM can only bring characters into the game for the players to meet that have a back story as detailed and rich as the players have. Why do you expect this to be the case? |
| #25RedSiegfriedNov 07, 2013 10:46:08 | If you feel a DM has an unfair advantage over a player the first thing you need to do is stop and ask yourself why that particular game is a competition between players and DMs instead of cooperation between the players and DM. Once you all grok that, you can take the next step. |
| #26DaBeerdsNov 07, 2013 12:29:37 |
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| #27KishriNov 08, 2013 1:19:55 | So, Methen, you are saying it is unfair that a King of a country (an NPC) has more gear and power than a player has, especially low level PCs?
Keep in mind a DM has NPCs that range from pittifully weak (a begger) to the gods. The only time this is unfair is if the DM makes the PCs fight over powered NPCs or engage in contests with NPCs that they have no chance of winning.
It seems, that in a modern setting, you would want the president to give up having aircraft carriers and nukes just because you only have a handgun. Not gonna happen. Likewise, Thor (an NPC) ain't gonna give up his hammer just because your low level dude only gets a knife (PC). Now, a DM pitting your knife wielding guy against Thor? That's unfair; however, Thor's having greater power and items than your character is just fine and it should be that way.
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| #28MethenNov 08, 2013 8:31:49 | You know its totaly amazing how everyone here totally twist even the most simplist things around, Look all I am saying in a nut shell is that the players should have the same basic rights with the freeddom to create their characters in the same matter that the dm has when creating their nps, it is as simple as that... |
| #29DaBeerdsNov 08, 2013 9:55:25 |
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| #30CentauriNov 08, 2013 10:09:35 |
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| #31DragolothNov 08, 2013 16:52:02 | One quick question Methen. Are you talking about the NPC's that populate the DM's world or HIS NPC, as in a DMPC? Is this a NPC that the DM is playing as a PC? |
| #32CCSNov 11, 2013 10:53:51 |
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| (Reply to #28)Derpnik | It's unfair to say everyone's trying to twist your words, when you're not articulating your thoughts extremely well, or as has been mentioned, answering people's clarifying questions.
But going with what I think you mean, why not start at level 30 with every magical item you want, so you get to feel no sense of progression?
I look at D&D like a video game, your PCs are just that, the character the player controls, while the DM is the game system. You interact with the game world, within the rules of the game (starting at the level the DM tells you to start at, with the items he/she's allowed you to start with), and you overcome the challenges presented, in order to have fun. The game isn't designed to tear you a new one (unless it is, which is fine, if that's fun for the players). Would you ask why the king you're overthrowing in a game has a magical sword? Of course not, first off, if you don't have a reason to be asking about it, it'd be metagaming to ask, because the DM doesn't have to tell you. Second, it would be reasonable to assume a king could afford to buy such a sword, or be given one as a gift, etc. For more mundane NPCs having magic items, a good DM will have an explanation as to why they have an item like that, but even if they don't, so what? Why would you, as a player, be privy to all of the background information of that particular NPC?
And on that note, I don't think many DMs would ask you where you got that magical item, if the rules you're playing with allow you to start with it at character creation. But that said, is there anything stopping you from coming up with a reason? Most of D&D is improvising, so at worst you'd be giving yourself some practice. |
| #34ScatterbrainedNov 12, 2013 11:48:06 |
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| #35CentauriNov 12, 2013 12:18:59 | It CAN work for both sides to have unlimited creative ability, but that changes the goal of the game. If you can automatically win just by declaring something to be true, there's no challenge there. The challenge in that case has to come from creating a cool situation that you're willing to have played out by dice or tactics. |
| #36DaBeerdsNov 12, 2013 12:41:06 |
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| #37ScatterbrainedNov 12, 2013 20:45:35 |
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| #38Beldak_SerpenthelmNov 13, 2013 5:55:51 |
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