Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Thefink Sep 10, 2013 9:03:31	Hello everybody, first time poster in these parts, been luring around the charop boards= and the general board for near a year now.  Introductions aside, I have an issue with my DM.  I'll start by explaining the current plot of the game we're in. In a world where the gods have been sealed off from having an effect on humans (read as you must refluff any divine class, powers and feats) the party of a dragonborn wizard mage (DM), dragonborn paladin, thri-kreen bard, razorclaw shifter druid, shadar-kai avenger (me) and a vryloka fighter knight are going into a cave to get a scepter for a kingdom.  Fairly generic plot, but hey, we try to roleplay a little. We are in a cave with mushrooms that if you end a turn adjacent to any of them, you take 1d8 poison damage and must make a save against a sidease called blackjaw (discussed later).  The creatures consist of spore minions that when killed, explode in a burst three against reflex (+7 I estimate) and if you get hit, must save against blakjaw and take 1d8 poison they also attack anything adjacent with a similar attack on their turn. A "black fungal beast" with high reflex and average other stats (22ish reflex) who can make a bite against AC which weakens if it hits along with 1d10 and modifier damage, shoot spikes from range that slow along with 1d8 damage with mod and can dig tendril into the ground that, while immobilizing them, gives them rejuvination (1d6 plus mod). A black fungal titan, large creature with an aura 2 that dazes and weakens and has about 24 AC, low relfex and 144 HP.  Can spew spores and a blast 5 against either fort or ref which if it hits does 2d10 and ongoing 5 poison.  Can "double arm slam" with reach 3 against AC that does 2d10 and stuns (save ends).  An arm whip against AC (all of these are +8) that does 1d10 and weakens (save ends) and if you willingly move out, including shifting, of the squares adjacent to it, it can arm whip you. A black fungal...jellyfish thing.  With an aura three that dazes, and if you enter the aura, it pushes you towards another black fungal enemy within the aura.  This creature has low AC and HP (about 44 for the easier ones).  This thing attacks will (+8) and can dominate (save ends), daze and weaken (save ends) slow (save ends) and immobilize (save ends) while doing 1d10 plus 4 psychic damage along with one of the previously mentioned effects from 20 squares away.  As a minor action, it can dig tendril to heal another black fungal beast within 10 by 1d6 + 7.  It also floats above ground. Now, I left out some of the powers that we didn't see from the creatures.  All of their attacks force a save against blackjaw at the end of the encounter. Black jaw stage 1 has a -2 to will, forces low light vision and you take a minus 2 to any diplomatic and bluff check and a plus 2 to intimidate.  Stage 2 has a minus 4 to will, normal vision and 4 to the aforementioned checks.  Stage 3 is a minus 6 (or 8, I forget) to will, you will have to make a save not to attack adjacent allies on your turn (if you fail, you get a plus six in addition to your existing attack modifier melee basic) and -6 to the checks.  There is a stage 4 and 5, but we neer got that far. An encounter had about 10 mushrooms across the cave, 5 spores, 3 fungal beasts, two titans and one jellyfish while having a river of lava in the middle of the room that radiates 3 squares heat where you must make an endurance check (if you fail, take 1d8 fire damage.)  All at once.   This is "optimized" for four level four players.  Opinions?
#2 Centauri Sep 10, 2013 10:11:25	Avoid combat. But that's always a good idea. Don't get attached to your character. Discuss with the DM what the provisions are for replacing characters. Find out the DM's intentions and preferences. Does the DM think characters should die regularly? If so, even more reason not to get attached and to find out about how replacement characters will be handled. Ask for exact numbers. There's no point in guessing. Every character in 4e is a trained combatant, and can plausibly tell how hard something will be to hit, how hard it will hit, how easily it can hit, and how many hits it can take. That's going to be a tough sell, but you might as well ask. It won't make the dungeon any easier, but it will keep you from having to participate in the pointless guessing game about attack bonuses and other stuff.
#3 iserith Sep 10, 2013 10:38:30	Thefink wrote:
#4 Thefink Sep 10, 2013 11:11:08	Firstly, thank's for quick responses.   Centauri wrote:
#5 iserith Sep 10, 2013 11:28:56	Thefink wrote:
#6 Thefink Sep 10, 2013 11:36:59	iserith wrote:
#7 Centauri Sep 10, 2013 11:38:26	Thefink wrote:
#8 Thefink Sep 10, 2013 11:46:38	Centauri wrote:
#9 Chainsawhand Sep 10, 2013 11:53:06	I see stun, multiple dazing effects, and dominate that is pretty brutal for level 4, in any case, you will end up spending a lot of time not doing anything or doing less, which is not the most fun experience in the world
#10 Centauri Sep 10, 2013 12:05:22	Thefink wrote:
#11 Thefink Sep 10, 2013 12:22:52	Eh, guess I was just looking for some justification to my opinion.  No worry though, I've got a hexblade pixie backup that will cause shenanigans, or maybe use the kapak draconian to do that.  With no DM rolls, and how the last two encounters went, we'll be making new characters every enconter.
#12 Centauri Sep 10, 2013 13:23:42	Thefink wrote:
#13 1stLevelSean Sep 12, 2013 5:36:32	Unless there are mitigating circumstances of environment or special PC powers, this encounter is overkill for your party. It might make a great climactic battle with high stakes, but it sounds like this is the maintenance level for the combat challenge in this campaign. If you don't get TKed, I predict you will get bored of fighting. Replacing dead characters is fine, but if you are forced to do this a lot, it defeats the continuity of roleplaying. When I ran the Mines of Madness, which I expected to be much more deadly than it turned out, I had manifestation effects ready to apply to slain PCs. In this case, perhaps your DM would allow dead characters to continue with some form of fungal infection that provides odd power twists (and hilarious sound effects).  But really, unless you guys want to get to the end of the dungeon playing your original character's squire's cousin's barkeep, I'd talk to the DM about adjusting the difficulty level. Either nerf the monsters or give the players a few more tools. Have you tried fashioning dead fungal beasts into area-effect puffball grenades?
#14 Centauri Sep 12, 2013 9:34:09	1stLevelSean wrote:
#15 Thefink Sep 12, 2013 12:35:03	We have all talked to the DM about the difficulty of these past few encounters.  He intends to make it harder.  I have a feeling I will probably drop this game: if a player's efficacy has dropped this low in the game, they will not have fun.  Monsters should be ruthless, but realistic, which these monsters are neither.  The monsters slam us until we make DST's and then ignore us completely.  Ridiculous. I've been offered to join another game run by another one of my friends, played a stage-setting first couple encounters and despite having to deal with two first time players and an encounter than had creatures outnumbering us and out-levling us, we had tons of fun. The current DM of the hard game always used to complain about the previous DM, who was running us in paragon and epic at the time, taking away powers and making it so we couldn't do anything when he is just doing the same thing in a different way. The new game has an elaborate original backstory with a couple homebrew rules that make it different but not difficult, and supports non-combat resolutions to fights.  Outnumbered?  Roll a bluff/intimidate check to make the call of a dangerous monster and convince him to CYA and run. tl;dr I'm having a talk with the hard DM and if nothing changes, I will switch games.
#16 iserith Sep 12, 2013 13:27:25	Thefink wrote:
#17 thespaceinvader Sep 13, 2013 4:25:06	Talk to the DM about XP budgets.  That's WAAAAY the hell over budget, just from the sound of things, let alone the calculations (an on-budget encounter will consist of roughly 1 standard monster per PC, or 4 minions per standard, 1 elite per 2 standards or 1 solo per 4 standards.  The encounter you're describing, if I've worked it out correctly, contains a minimum of 10 monsters, so unless all but 2 of them are minions, and those two are standards, the Xp budget is pretty much blown already, even without thinking about the levels, which do seem kind of high.  And none of that is taking itno account the environmental hazards and diseases which also contribute to the XP budget.  Also, about the fact that even if you are exposed to a disease, you normally don't risk contracting it until the *end* of the encounter, when you can then make a saving throw to avoid getting it, and then another heal or endurance check per day to see whether it gets any worse if you do.  Usually at DCs set by the level of the disease, and someone else can do the heal check on you if you want.  Hell, the disease track he's using sounds completely housefuled, given that he's got the DCs basically the inverse of what they should be (i.e. if |I've understood correctly, he's using a roll-under mechanic which will actually make it HARDER to resist the disease the more CON you have...), not to mention aid-fail=auto-fail rather than -1 to the aided check. Also, talk to him about DMPCs. A DM running a PC is often (but not always) a sign of a bad DM. Next time, ask him to run a session 0 to start with, where you all set out what you want from the game, including him, and he sets out all his houserules, which seem to be many.  If what you want differs significantly from his goals, don't play. No gaming >>>>>> bad gaming.
#18 JeffGroves Sep 13, 2013 8:35:41	Thefink wrote:
#19 Thefink Sep 13, 2013 11:20:31	thespaceinvader wrote: