D&D 3.5: Tricky situation in yesterday's session, input please - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

D&D 3.5: Tricky situation in yesterday's session, input please

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
will_shakespeare
Oct 21, 2008 5:28:28 Hi there,

don't know where to put this, so i'll post it here.
In yesterday's session a tricky situation occurred. I'd appreciate any helpful input on that, if possible back up your statements with quotations of the corresponding rules. Thanks in advance.

Now here is the situation.
I'm playing an Abjurer / Master Specialist / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.
Yesterday we were getting deeper and deeper into the Underdark and a tough fight with some Drow occurred. Somewhere in mid battle my Abjurer used her Greater Invisibility spell and in the following round got into melee range. She had one (blue) veil active as a personal warding. It happened then, that the Drow Blackguard wanted to get to our Corellon Cleric and by that ran into my invisible Abjurer.
So how is that handled according to the RAW? The Blackguard did enter the square my char was in, my char did not had any weapon to use against the Blackguard, so no AoO. But what would have happened with the veil, would the Drow be running into it and suffering its effects? We handled the situation that way, that the Blackguard ran into my char, did not suffer the veil's effect, and then attacked my char with his Greatsword, eventually killing my Abjurer.
What do you guys say? How would you have handled this?

Cheerio

Will
#2
drmorganes
Oct 21, 2008 7:17:14 First, yes, this is the correct forum for your question.

Second, I don't own Complete Arcane, so I'm unfamiliar with the details of the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.

However, simply being invisible doesn't cancel any persistent magical effect. The "blue veil" you reference would still be active under the effect of Greater Invisibility, just as Stoneskin, Mage Armor, or any other magic. If the blue veil would normally do something to an opponent entering your square or that is adjacent to you, it still would.

As far the drow attacking you... how? I can see how the DM might rule that the blackguard bumped into your PC - but in the absence of magic to cancel your Greater Invisibility he'd have to make a hefty Spot Check to pinpoint your square AND suffer a 50% miss chance on each attack due to your invisibility.

I think we're missing some additional information about the sequence of events, but if things did play out exactly as you describe, I call shenanigans.
#3
aberzanzorax
Oct 21, 2008 8:12:03 Let's see...
1. First of all, ordinarily (i.e. without the veil) as DM I'd offer you the option to sidestep the drow if you chose to. Allies can move through your squares, and remember they're 5 feet wide. If you're invisible and you want the drow to get past you, it's like you're not even there (unless it makes a huge spot check or a listen check). I might require a really low dex or tumble check so you can dodge the drow (like DC 5) but since I wouldn't require that check if you had an ally move through your invisible square neither would I require it of the drow. (This would all depend on what kind of game we were running...high realism vs high fantasy/heroism).

2. That said, on to the warding, which complicates matters.
Personal warding..."this warding is a sphere whose diameter is equal to an initiate's space (5 feet for Small or Medium creatures...). It moves with her, but she cannot force another creature to pass through it (for example by, attempting to grapple an enemy). If she does force a creature to pass through, the warding has no effect on that creature. Any creature striking at her with a melee weapon or natural attack is subject to the veil's effect."

You DIDN'T force the drow into the warding by any means. ANY MEANS. I imagine your DM claimed you did, which is why it didn't work (although it could have been spell resistance if that applies). If I fall down an open manhole that I didn't see, I wasn't forced down it, I was just unaware. It should have worked both upon entering your square and on any attacks. That is quite clear to me.

3. So the drow runs into your square, makes a saving throw upon touching the veil, and is alerted, not to YOUR presence, but to the presence of a magical effect. I'd require an immediate spellcraft roll if the drow had it to determine that it was an effect centered on you. If not, or if failed, then the drow would have no idea it was a person centered effect, andwould keep moving as per my answer in 1. If it realized it was a person centered effect, it could attack your square (with the usual 50% miss chance for your being invisible) and suffer the effects of the veil each and every attack (even those that miss).

4. Finally, you COULD have AoO'd the drow. Usually, being unarmed means you shouldn't, because hitting someone with an unarmed attack is REALLY suboptimal (they'd get their own AoO provoked by your attack...ouch). In this case, you had concealment. If you have concealment or cover, you don't provoke AoOs. Hence, you could have punched it (without improved unarmed fighting) or even grappled it (without improved grapple), which is what I would have chosen-the grapple. In this case, you wouldn't be using grapple to make it move into your space, it had already chosen to move into your space. For instance, if someone else decides to grapple you, your veil works. If someone walks into your space, the veil works. There is nothing in the rules about the veil no longer working if you hold someone in your space, just rules about forcing them into the veil. Heck, what if they grappled you? If you grappled them back, would that dispel the veil? I would certainly say no. I'd rule, as a dm, that you would have gotten an AoO if you wanted it, and if you chose to grapple the drow, it would have had to make a saving throw each round it was in your space or each time it attacked you in any way other than trying to get out of the grapple.

Shennanigans. Shennanigans indeed. I'd ask for a metagame ressurection without a level loss.
#4
maulorn
Oct 21, 2008 11:08:01
4. Finally, you COULD have AoO'd the drow. Usually, being unarmed means you shouldn't, because hitting someone with an unarmed attack is REALLY suboptimal (they'd get their own AoO provoked by your attack...ouch). In this case, you had concealment. If you have concealment or cover, you don't provoke AoOs. Hence, you could have punched it (without improved unarmed fighting) or even grappled it (without improved grapple), which is what I would have chosen-the grapple. In this case, you wouldn't be using grapple to make it move into your space, it had already chosen to move into your space. For instance, if someone else decides to grapple you, your veil works. If someone walks into your space, the veil works. There is nothing in the rules about the veil no longer working if you hold someone in your space, just rules about forcing them into the veil. Heck, what if they grappled you? If you grappled them back, would that dispel the veil? I would certainly say no. I'd rule, as a dm, that you would have gotten an AoO if you wanted it, and if you chose to grapple the drow, it would have had to make a saving throw each round it was in your space or each time it attacked you in any way other than trying to get out of the grapple.

You do not provoke AoO when you are unarmed. If you have the unarmed feat then your unarmed attacks are considered as weapons and you would provoke AoO, but without the feat you are not entitled to a AoO with a unarmed attack...

Just taking a guess here...

Did you get faerie fired?

Anyhow the veil should have affected the drow. He should have did his SR and save...and unless he faerie fired you he would have been hard pressed to slay you unless you stood still for it.
#5
will_shakespeare
Oct 21, 2008 11:29:17 Thanks for all of your input, guys. I will check that with my group and the DM.

My char is always unarmed, so opponents do never provoke an AoO. And no, i did not get faerie fired.

The blackguard obviously made his 50% miss chance roll and he scored a critical hit with his greatsword. My char was already (badly) hurt at that moment. So the result would have been bad, but we will fix that. There will be no problem in continuing playing my char.

Again, thanks, guys.
#6
maulorn
Oct 21, 2008 11:37:50 Really the drow would have faerie fired you before attacking you.

Did the hit kill you?...or were you barely alive and continued to move?

There is a feat tree I think that lets you use touch spells for AoO. I think it requires quicken spell and cannot remember at the time what else...

Use a weapon...even if it is a spell...like sonic spear.
#7
will_shakespeare
Oct 21, 2008 11:51:13 Nice suggestions.

We only use the spells from the PHB, though.

The critical hit would have killed my char in an instant. But we use a houserule, where every player has a special "card" that he can use in every moment of the game. After used, this card goes to the DM, who can use it for his NPCs the same way. This card can be used for saving a character's life, e.g., so i had to use it yesterday because of the drow running into my char, not suffering from the veils effect and as a consequence slaying my char with his greatsword.

This feat tree sounds interesting. Maybe you can look it up and tell me where i can find it?
#8
aberzanzorax
Oct 22, 2008 7:09:24
You do not provoke AoO when you are unarmed. If you have the unarmed feat then your unarmed attacks are considered as weapons and you would provoke AoO, but without the feat you are not entitled to a AoO with a unarmed attack...

You do provoke an AoO when an unarmed character attacks an armed character if the unarmed character doesn't have the unarmed feat. Somehow I doubt that the abjurer wizard in this instance has it.

But you are right and I was wrong, upon looking it up...You are not entitled to an AoO if you are not armed. My apologies for any confusion.

To the OP...I don't know about that feat path, but I do know that you are considered "armed" if you have a touch spell, and hence can make attacks of opportunity with it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 will_shakespeare Oct 21, 2008 5:28:28	Hi there, don't know where to put this, so i'll post it here. In yesterday's session a tricky situation occurred. I'd appreciate any helpful input on that, if possible back up your statements with quotations of the corresponding rules. Thanks in advance. Now here is the situation. I'm playing an Abjurer / Master Specialist / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. Yesterday we were getting deeper and deeper into the Underdark and a tough fight with some Drow occurred. Somewhere in mid battle my Abjurer used her Greater Invisibility spell and in the following round got into melee range. She had one (blue) veil active as a personal warding. It happened then, that the Drow Blackguard wanted to get to our Corellon Cleric and by that ran into my invisible Abjurer. So how is that handled according to the RAW? The Blackguard did enter the square my char was in, my char did not had any weapon to use against the Blackguard, so no AoO. But what would have happened with the veil, would the Drow be running into it and suffering its effects? We handled the situation that way, that the Blackguard ran into my char, did not suffer the veil's effect, and then attacked my char with his Greatsword, eventually killing my Abjurer. What do you guys say? How would you have handled this? Cheerio Will
#2 drmorganes Oct 21, 2008 7:17:14	First, yes, this is the correct forum for your question. Second, I don't own Complete Arcane, so I'm unfamiliar with the details of the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. However, simply being invisible doesn't cancel any persistent magical effect. The "blue veil" you reference would still be active under the effect of Greater Invisibility, just as Stoneskin, Mage Armor, or any other magic. If the blue veil would normally do something to an opponent entering your square or that is adjacent to you, it still would. As far the drow attacking you... how? I can see how the DM might rule that the blackguard bumped into your PC - but in the absence of magic to cancel your Greater Invisibility he'd have to make a hefty Spot Check to pinpoint your square AND suffer a 50% miss chance on each attack due to your invisibility. I think we're missing some additional information about the sequence of events, but if things did play out exactly as you describe, I call shenanigans.
#3 aberzanzorax Oct 21, 2008 8:12:03	Let's see... 1. First of all, ordinarily (i.e. without the veil) as DM I'd offer you the option to sidestep the drow if you chose to. Allies can move through your squares, and remember they're 5 feet wide. If you're invisible and you want the drow to get past you, it's like you're not even there (unless it makes a huge spot check or a listen check). I might require a really low dex or tumble check so you can dodge the drow (like DC 5) but since I wouldn't require that check if you had an ally move through your invisible square neither would I require it of the drow. (This would all depend on what kind of game we were running...high realism vs high fantasy/heroism). 2. That said, on to the warding, which complicates matters. Personal warding..."this warding is a sphere whose diameter is equal to an initiate's space (5 feet for Small or Medium creatures...). It moves with her, but she cannot force another creature to pass through it (for example by, attempting to grapple an enemy). If she does force a creature to pass through, the warding has no effect on that creature. Any creature striking at her with a melee weapon or natural attack is subject to the veil's effect." You DIDN'T force the drow into the warding by any means. ANY MEANS. I imagine your DM claimed you did, which is why it didn't work (although it could have been spell resistance if that applies). If I fall down an open manhole that I didn't see, I wasn't forced down it, I was just unaware. It should have worked both upon entering your square and on any attacks. That is quite clear to me. 3. So the drow runs into your square, makes a saving throw upon touching the veil, and is alerted, not to YOUR presence, but to the presence of a magical effect. I'd require an immediate spellcraft roll if the drow had it to determine that it was an effect centered on you. If not, or if failed, then the drow would have no idea it was a person centered effect, andwould keep moving as per my answer in 1. If it realized it was a person centered effect, it could attack your square (with the usual 50% miss chance for your being invisible) and suffer the effects of the veil each and every attack (even those that miss). 4. Finally, you COULD have AoO'd the drow. Usually, being unarmed means you shouldn't, because hitting someone with an unarmed attack is REALLY suboptimal (they'd get their own AoO provoked by your attack...ouch). In this case, you had concealment. If you have concealment or cover, you don't provoke AoOs. Hence, you could have punched it (without improved unarmed fighting) or even grappled it (without improved grapple), which is what I would have chosen-the grapple. In this case, you wouldn't be using grapple to make it move into your space, it had already chosen to move into your space. For instance, if someone else decides to grapple you, your veil works. If someone walks into your space, the veil works. There is nothing in the rules about the veil no longer working if you hold someone in your space, just rules about forcing them into the veil. Heck, what if they grappled you? If you grappled them back, would that dispel the veil? I would certainly say no. I'd rule, as a dm, that you would have gotten an AoO if you wanted it, and if you chose to grapple the drow, it would have had to make a saving throw each round it was in your space or each time it attacked you in any way other than trying to get out of the grapple. Shennanigans. Shennanigans indeed. I'd ask for a metagame ressurection without a level loss.
#4 maulorn Oct 21, 2008 11:08:01	4. Finally, you COULD have AoO'd the drow. Usually, being unarmed means you shouldn't, because hitting someone with an unarmed attack is REALLY suboptimal (they'd get their own AoO provoked by your attack...ouch). In this case, you had concealment. If you have concealment or cover, you don't provoke AoOs. Hence, you could have punched it (without improved unarmed fighting) or even grappled it (without improved grapple), which is what I would have chosen-the grapple. In this case, you wouldn't be using grapple to make it move into your space, it had already chosen to move into your space. For instance, if someone else decides to grapple you, your veil works. If someone walks into your space, the veil works. There is nothing in the rules about the veil no longer working if you hold someone in your space, just rules about forcing them into the veil. Heck, what if they grappled you? If you grappled them back, would that dispel the veil? I would certainly say no. I'd rule, as a dm, that you would have gotten an AoO if you wanted it, and if you chose to grapple the drow, it would have had to make a saving throw each round it was in your space or each time it attacked you in any way other than trying to get out of the grapple. You do not provoke AoO when you are unarmed. If you have the unarmed feat then your unarmed attacks are considered as weapons and you would provoke AoO, but without the feat you are not entitled to a AoO with a unarmed attack... Just taking a guess here... Did you get faerie fired? Anyhow the veil should have affected the drow. He should have did his SR and save...and unless he faerie fired you he would have been hard pressed to slay you unless you stood still for it.
#5 will_shakespeare Oct 21, 2008 11:29:17	Thanks for all of your input, guys. I will check that with my group and the DM. My char is always unarmed, so opponents do never provoke an AoO. And no, i did not get faerie fired. The blackguard obviously made his 50% miss chance roll and he scored a critical hit with his greatsword. My char was already (badly) hurt at that moment. So the result would have been bad, but we will fix that. There will be no problem in continuing playing my char. Again, thanks, guys.
#6 maulorn Oct 21, 2008 11:37:50	Really the drow would have faerie fired you before attacking you. Did the hit kill you?...or were you barely alive and continued to move? There is a feat tree I think that lets you use touch spells for AoO. I think it requires quicken spell and cannot remember at the time what else... Use a weapon...even if it is a spell...like sonic spear.
#7 will_shakespeare Oct 21, 2008 11:51:13	Nice suggestions. We only use the spells from the PHB, though. The critical hit would have killed my char in an instant. But we use a houserule, where every player has a special "card" that he can use in every moment of the game. After used, this card goes to the DM, who can use it for his NPCs the same way. This card can be used for saving a character's life, e.g., so i had to use it yesterday because of the drow running into my char, not suffering from the veils effect and as a consequence slaying my char with his greatsword. This feat tree sounds interesting. Maybe you can look it up and tell me where i can find it?
#8 aberzanzorax Oct 22, 2008 7:09:24	You do not provoke AoO when you are unarmed. If you have the unarmed feat then your unarmed attacks are considered as weapons and you would provoke AoO, but without the feat you are not entitled to a AoO with a unarmed attack... You do provoke an AoO when an unarmed character attacks an armed character if the unarmed character doesn't have the unarmed feat. Somehow I doubt that the abjurer wizard in this instance has it. But you are right and I was wrong, upon looking it up...You are not entitled to an AoO if you are not armed. My apologies for any confusion. To the OP...I don't know about that feat path, but I do know that you are considered "armed" if you have a touch spell, and hence can make attacks of opportunity with it.