Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Boromancer Oct 26, 2013 0:27:24	I play in a campaign with heavy role playing and politics. And the DM allows characters of all alignments. Anyway, getting to the point. I have a friend who constantly has a problem keeping his character alive, no matter how well built it is. The player is very idealistic, and believes that all players play heroic characters who band together, put aside personality differences, and conquer evil no matter where it stands. Unfortunately for this player, the primary cause of death for his characters is PvP, or character conflicts within the party.   The rest of the players are constantly bewildered and embarrassed by his lacks of common sense, good taste, or intuition. He has made deals with a demon just to get out of poorly guarded prisons (actually, he sold his soul and the souls of all his "friends" to a demon in a heartbeat without the demon even demanding a price for services. The conversation was basically this: player - "Are you a demon?", demon - "Uh, no. No, I'm not." (DM tries to roll bluff, but the player talks immediately), player - "I'll sell my soul to you if you get me out of jail! In fact, I'll pitch in the souls of my friends too!) Later, he blabbed about the fantastic deal he made with a powerful but beneficent being who freed him from imprisonment for the cheap price of everyone's souls.   The party dealed with NPC authorities to keep his idiot locked up forever, but lo and behold, the demon appeared and he immediately offered his and his party's souls again to the same demon. But that wasn't possible because the demon owned the souls of the adventurers, so he sold the entire party's lives. Well, the DM can't directly kill players that way, but the demon is powerful enough to create powerful artifacts, so he created an artifact bound to the party's lives and will automatically kill the party if any character finds and uses it. The player blabs about it again in character, and promptly gets slaughtered by the party.     The DM allowed this player to make a new character, complete with a backstory and details about the character's appearance, including measurements. Unfortunately, the player only knows how to be "chaotic stupid", and the new character is actively avoided by the rest of the party. Due to serendipidous rolls in a skill challenge masked as a chase scene (playing 4th ed), the new character catches up to the party, but is immediately tied up and interrogated by the party. After revealing a sad backstory involving the death of his family by the hands of an assassin using a blade of a religion worshipping an evil diety, the interrogating character, who just happens to worship that same evil diety, coup de grace him. This all happened in one session. The player never even revealed the class and race of his character (no one cared).   Now I am sharing all this because I genuinely want to help this player learn how to role play intelligently, as hilarious as his stupid antics are. I suspect this player to be mentally challenged, but should I patiently teach how decisions should be made with forethought and consideration of the reactions of other characters? Or should I just watch callously as his characters are destroyed one after another because he lacks the cognitive capacity to understand right and wrong social interactions?
#2 thadian Oct 26, 2013 3:16:23	I would feel bitter if some jerk dictated power over my character away from me by selling my soul to a demon without my consent. I wouldn't be pleased with a DM who allows that to happen either. This player would be kicked out of my table because the table would be better off without him. But, you want to keep him.   1. What are his motives in playing?   2. Does he enjoy the game, or is this just a way to spend time with friends? Is he just bored looking for something to do, or is he genuinely interested in the game?   The answers to these questions will give you a feel of what your real limitations are. If he is just bored, and looking to spend time with homies he probably doesn't care much if his actions violate your table rules or if he causes you a hard time. Players who aren't genuinely interested in the game can't be reasonably expected to behave the same as players who are.   3. Does he care that his actions disturb the other players?   Ask this. He probably knows what he is doing. It is only a matter of why. I am not convinced he is just aloof.  A player who is just bored and looking to have a good time, will often perform random actions in the game just to "add some spice". Similar to how a bored kid during a movie, will start making noises and being a disturbance. The kid is just bored, and wants to expend a little energy. Nothing wrong with this. Adults think we are so much more advanced thank kids, but we aren't. If he is just bored, expect him to do irrational things to amuse himself.   If you suspect the player to be of a lower mental state (I have had a few myself), then appeal to that. Talk to the DM and other players about it. If this is true (and bless you for including this player despite any mental defficiency), then the DM can take that into account. People on slightly lower mental levels can be a good addition to any game, when they are having fun. Maybe he wants more action with less story and doesn't see the bigger picture. If the player is mentally challenged, this isn't even his fault.   Also, different humans are entertained by different things. A player who wants to burn addrenaline will be watching cat videos and making potty jokes when they don't feel the rush. Players who want deep intrigue and storylining will feel apathetic and zoned out during large scale, intense battles. Maybe the DM can try a little mix-up and see if a change of pace impacts this players behavior. Good luck and happy gaming.
#3 Centauri Oct 26, 2013 10:42:46	That's not death by roleplaying, that's death by the other players. If you want to take control and make things better, don't look to change the other player, look to change yourself, starting with finding reasons NOT to tie the character up and throw it in jail.
#4 Krusk Oct 26, 2013 16:13:31	Some things you can do to help Stop killing his PC. It just encourages him to view them as short term investments. In fact, banning PVP might be a good idea all together Tell him to roll a PC that fits with the party, and wants to stick with them.  Ask him to explain his concept to the group. Remind him that his concept and backstory need to be something that fits with the group. Repeat until he does. Help him if needed. If he pursposfully avoids joining the party, tell him to reroll. Explain that there will be no DMing of sidequests for one PC while everyone else plays smash bros. Repeat until he plays a PC that fits with the group. Tell him out of game to stop being a jackass or you won't invite him back anymore. (If he continues that sort of BS, don't invite him back anymore) I'm also curious how the DM let him sell your PCs souls and lives without owning them himself. This indicates to me the DM is into this sort of PC behavior and thinks its funny. Consider having a talk with them, and suggest that it is lessening your fun.    (My thought is you can't sell someone else's soul, because its not yours and you don't own it)
#5 Boromancer Oct 26, 2013 17:16:28	thadian wrote:
#6 thadian Oct 26, 2013 19:19:34	I agree with Social Inclusion.   It sounds like if your player is genuine then you need to talk to the DM about Ninth Grade Civics; using other peoples disadvantages as a subject of humor is cruel to that person even if that person isn't saddened by it (publicly). I feel for you, because I hate it when people like your DM take advantage of others like this, and it is taking advantage of others. He is getting a "free laugh" with a cheap shot, and it isn't funny. But, I am not the Moral Police.   DO NOT ASSUME COMPASSION TO BE A WEAKNESS.  It may feel like that at times, especially in a country with so many people who lack any sense of empathy or compassion.   It sounds like you need to find a more mature group to bring your friend to, and tell your DM about his problem and say "It isn't funny, it isn't a joke. If you can be nice to my friend despite his disability, I would appreciate that." and you would be shocked how many mature people will agree.   Are you playing with a group of younger players? It sounds like your DM and other players (who enjoy it) declared a "Norm" that you are in violation of. The "Norm" is making fun of the mentally disadvantaged and Social Acceptance is deviance against that norm. You need a different norm; meaning you need a conversation with these people about Civics and Ethics; and if they won't change their behavior, then you need a different group.   Could you endure a one-shot game with this character alone? Give him a character of his choice and just let him run wild in a world created just for him to run wild in. After he gets some steam out of his system, add in a few more layers of depth and see how he responds to it. To be honest you and this player might even have enough fun that you don't need a group of immature bullies at your table, and you might even find other players who are more mature. I also advise to be weary of people who get a kick out of laughing at others because they will be laughing at you, too.   I support you and I hope you are able to fix this.  The problem isn't this player; the problem is a group of bullies and a norm of treating others as inferiors.   I apologize if my position is harsh. Cheers.     Edit:  And, I have experienced this situation.
#7 iserith Oct 27, 2013 0:47:25	Read the two links in my signature, "11 Ways to Be a Better Roleplayer" and "You are Not Your Character." Share them with your group. Pay particular attention to ways 3, 4, 5, and 10 which applies to your situation.
#8 thadian Oct 27, 2013 2:23:50	iserith wrote:
#9 Krusk Oct 27, 2013 9:21:14	If you are the odd man out on this, you can do 3 things.   Ask them to change Get over it Leave I'd recomend trying the options in order. Have a conversation about what you see as a problem. Try to see their side, but also make your opinions known. Ask if they can accomidate you. If not, you have to decide if its a deal breaker for you. If it isn't, get over it. If it is, bow out politely. When you do, consider starting your own game. Even if you start your own game, that doesn't mean you have to DM. Do the leg work, gather a group of players and lay it out. "I'd like to form a DND group. I'm not crazy about DMing but will if no one else wants to. You in?". Go ahead and invite your awkward friend. Maybe he joins, maybe not.
#10 crimsyn Oct 27, 2013 19:32:37	I have to admit that I might be initially miffed at having another player sell my character's soul - I think it does intrude a little bit on one's character if other players are selling their souls without consent.  And it raises a lot of questions - situations like "Hey Satan, I'll sell you Flanders' soul for a donut!"  But, it sounds like you've got a good quest ahead of you - find this demon, hunt him down, get your soul back, and destroy this artifact!   Long story short, you need to stop killing this guy's characters, or gaming with assholes who kill each others' characters.  Seriously, you say it's a role-play heavy game.  It sounds like having one person who follows an evil deity and another whose family was killed by an assassin following that deity would be an interesting role-playing scenario - or could have been, if his character hadn't been ganked right off the bat.  You need to sit down with all the players and have a conversation with them about how they are in control of their characters and just because they can or might be motivated to go after another character doesn't mean they have to.  It means they have to thinkg of why they don't.  You can't just PvP away all potential group conflicts.  Let them develop, don't just stab your problems away.
#11 Scatterbrained Oct 28, 2013 6:25:43	Sure the guy could use a few pointers, but to me it seems like the rest of the party is doing most of the blocking here. This guy is just trying to make the story more interesting.   Who cares if a PC sold your soul to a demon? This is friggin' D&D... charge down to the Abyss and get it back!   And the evil guy killing his party mate because the mate's family was killed by another associate of his evil deity... how is that the dead guys fault?   The PC in question here seems like a creative guy who wants to contribute to the storyline. Don't just throw that away and blame all the issues on him. It's the party dynamic that needs to change - especially the idea that a party will just kill off one of their own at the first inconvenience or mistake. If your group really doesn't want to let go of PVP, there's no reason it can't be nonlethal.   There's also some serious metagaming going on here where the guys new character is hated by the party before they even meet him. This is an out-of-game issue that needs to be resolved. What are the other players so afraid will happen? Can the DM step in and assure them he will not kill them all because of a stupid party member?
#12 thespaceinvader Oct 28, 2013 8:58:06	1: Stop the campaign for a week.   2: Use that week to sit down with all the players and talk over how they want the game to work, what their expectations are, what they do/don't enjoy, like the grown adults (or at least teenagers) I assume you to be.   3: Start playing again following and taking into account the results of said discussion.   DO NOT under any circumstances try to resolve out-of-game problems (and make no mistake, players' differing expectations of the game is an out-of-game problem) via in-game solutions.   Also, generally, don't do PvP in systems which aren't well-designed for it, which few D&D systems are.
#13 Boromancer Oct 28, 2013 18:07:15	I think I need to give the DM a good talk. He makes decisions democratically, and if the majority of his players decide on one thing, he goes with it. However, when a democracy results in harm towards the minorities, that's an infarction on good moral principle. My friends probably have not realized that they are bullying, because the "dumb" player got himself into a situation, and it seems fair for him to learn from it. However, they have neglected that "dumb" players aren't choosing to be "dumb". The next character this guy makes, I'll make sure the DM is involved in making it work so that PvP doesn't just erupt from stupidity, with full character background involvement. To be honest, this wasn't the first player to be ostracized, one was kicked out of a game because the rest of the group didn't want to cooperate and resolve issues with a player's real behavior (it involved the player unable to keep a distance from personal space, and unsolicited touching, especially with another player's girlfriend). Again, the decision was made by democratic process.   In addition, the DM allowed me to create a character that plans to assassinate another player's character, even if it is a guest player. However, my character is crafty enough to avoid getting killed in PvP conflict, and would hire a NPC goon army to tackle the task. I sense that the DM's story would be so derailed that the campaign story would be utterly ruined. However, his initial reaction seems to be supportive of my character's development, and is excited about the story spiraling out of control. Thinking about it as if I was the DM, I wouldn't let players play characters that conflict too much, and would mediate player relationships, rather than let a mob mentality develop.   I'm glad I talked about this topic with a third party. I have a solution I want to try now.
#14 thadian Oct 28, 2013 21:14:04	1. If a person couldn't keep their "hands off" where those hands aren't wanted or creates that kind of discomfort, that player would be out of the game as a table rule. I can't go into too much because I like to avoid value judgements, but I can tell you if it were my girlfriend a "new guy" couldn't "keep off", I wouldn't care who brought this person or what the deal was. There would be "Good old fashioned ultra violence" without the dice.   2. I wouldn't ever allow a player to take aggression against another player because I don't want that kind of competition between players in my game. That is simply a table preference, and if your table finds that to enhance the game and you all agree to it, and it doesn't hurt or bother anybody, there isn't a problem.   I would suggest trying your hand at DMing yourself. Sometimes, people just have different ways of seeing the world and we can't just agree to see the same thing. Diversity is a good thing.   You should talk to your DM but you should also find one empathic player who, when alone can be reasonable and compassionate; then talk to that player and get him to back you. That way it isn't just "you making a problem" and the hope is that if another player speaks against you, you will have support in that.
#15 LaSpeakeasy Oct 29, 2013 7:14:17	I understand your pain. My (soon to be ex-) gaming group has a similar player too, playing an lawful good high elven paladin but insists on acting chaotic stupid. And we all agonize over his behaviors.   I think what players like these need is not neccessarily behavioral adjustment, but training in RPing interesting characters. Badly played, hyprotically heroic but sociopathetic at-core characters with no motivation nor development are the bane of every gaming table. I'm a firm believer of not blocking others' actions, no matter how much it may conflict with your own values. If I were you I would focus on two things.   1) Communicate with the DM and other players and make sure that reinforcements are, well, reinforced. Meaning, behaviors that benefits the game's "fun" factor will be rewarded later down the road, and vice versa. If the player does something stupid and pays the price for it, eventually he will get the hint and wise up. If he doesn't and continues to act like an ass, then well I'm sure even you wouldn't wanna help him by then.   In my game the high elven paladin slept with the magistrate's daughter while she was drunk. Shortly after the ball we were at was invaded by rat people, and the player rushed to save his GF only to have her slayed right in front of him.   2) The way I dealt with the player in my group was I always made sure, in character, to treat him like a joke. I let him do what I want, and my character always make a witty but biting remark when he does something stupid and pays for it. Out of character I gave him back-handed compliments like, "I like the way you develop your character to be a total joke; he's so much fun." And it humiliates him even more than if I had flat out insluted him; but in this case I did it with class.
#16 Scatterbrained Oct 29, 2013 8:14:03	Boromancer wrote:
#17 CCS Oct 29, 2013 11:28:09	Boromancer wrote:
#18 Krusk Oct 31, 2013 14:43:48	(ex; trying to bribe his way through a city gate.  Initial offer was a piece of rope & a crude wooden holy symbol {a disk of common wood with the symbol scratched onto it via dagger tip}.  When the gaurd pointed out that this wasn't even close to being worth 1GP?  He pulls out his bag of holding & offers 1k GP.  In plain view of everyone & everyything with eyes & a notion of what gold is....  Our characters found him later - mugged, beaten, & robbed in an ally. Ex; while exploring a tunnel/cave system - he sticks his head in a hole in the floor & screams - to see if it would echo.  Despite the rest of us having recon abilities.  Well, he nearly got his head eaten by the creature that was lurking down below that was to be the threat of the encounter....  )
#19 Boromancer Nov 01, 2013 15:30:36	I think role-playing for kids is much different than the same activity for adults. Kids will do stupid things just to explore the effects of it. It adds to the enjoyment for the child, especially since there are no permanent consequences (it's a game). I think adults should let kids try out stupid things and not dictate what they should and should not do. If they get themselves killed by their environment, let them experience and learn from it. I think it ruins the experience if kids can't be kids while playing.   Reflecting on my buddy who does stupid childish things in game, it's the consequence of not having the experience of being a child and getting into and out of trouble that causes him to do stupid things. But since this guy is physically an adult, there is urgency to make him learn faster, so the group decided to let the stupidity happen with harsh consequences, and then debrief him on what exactly went wrong. The DM likes to troll, but he's sensible enough to not take everything too seriously and technically, and puts emphasis on fun and cool. He did manage to make hanging out at a tavern into a skill challenge after all (because the party didn't feel like exploring his deathtrap dungeons). (I neglected to mention stuff like this aforehand. I apologize.)
#20 iserith Nov 01, 2013 15:35:14	It's a kid's game and I know plenty of players that could benefit from acting a little more like a kid and little less like a boring, contentious adult.
#21 RedSiegfried Nov 02, 2013 11:10:25	iserith wrote:
#22 Boromancer Nov 04, 2013 11:50:24	Hmm, maybe the stupid guy is actually enjoying the game correctly. I find all the "serious" players claiming to be chaotic good while obediently following the leadership of a charming lawful evil player to be rather silly.    After talking to my DM about the potential harassment from other players, he agreed to help my mentally challenged buddy make a better backstory, and agreed to have 2 parties, with one party not letting any new members because of "Paranoia", and the other being the "assassin" party teaming up with NPCs. It's a good thing that PvP and very challenging gameplay (encounters 3 levels above party level is a regular occurence) is enjoyed. In other games, I've had players complain and throw fits about their PCs dying and needing to make a new character (it actually makes the game easier because the surviving players keep the loot of the dead characters, and the new characters come in with new equipment. The DM gives random loot, so the trading becomes an interesting aspect of the game).
#23 Noon Dec 22, 2013 15:11:39	I'm sorry, this is totally the DM saying the demon has any sort of effect.   Are there any rules that say a PC can offer anyone elses souls or lives to a demon?   No?   Then this is the DM setting up this crap.   If the other players don't like it (I assume they don't), then they need to talk to the DM about not doing what he's doing!   If the players all enjoy this, what's the problem?     I genuinely want to help this player learn how to role play intelligently
#24 Noon Dec 22, 2013 15:14:04	thadian wrote: