A few days ago he shared with me some of the details of the campaign. I was informed that we'll be experiencing some encounters and stuff but all our characters will eventually die (by what means I don't really know, we'll most probably get slaughtered in a big fight).
He then continued, telling me that we'll soon find ourselves in the place where the Raven Queen resides and that she'll resurrect us under the conditions that 1.) we'll take up her quest, and 2.) we should realign our faith to the Raven Queen.
I don't have any problems with number 1 since I we're all into questing anyway. But number 2 kinda bothers me. My character, a Dragonborn Sorcerer already has a deity in the form of Kord (since the dude loves to fight). I asked him what would happen if we didn't choose to worship the R. Queen and he told me that our characters will be banished/sent to the netherworld and we will have to create new ones. He also added that he'll be making an offer we couldn't refuse (cue in The Godfather theme...).
Is there a way to challenge this during the game? Could anyone suggest any loopholes or backstory which could defy the demands of the Raven Queen?
So my friend will soon become a newbie DM next week and we'll play at his house. Right now he's preparing his first story.
A few days ago he shared with me some of the details of the campaign. I was informed that we'll be experiencing some encounters and stuff but all our characters will eventually die (by what means I don't really know, we'll most probably get slaughtered in a big fight).
He then continued, telling me that we'll soon find ourselves in the place where the Raven Queen resides and that she'll resurrect us under the conditions that 1.) we'll take up her quest, and 2.) we should realign our faith to the Raven Queen.
I don't have any problems with number 1 since I we're all into questing anyway. But number 2 kinda bothers me. My character, a Dragonborn Sorcerer already has a deity in the form of Kord (since the dude loves to fight). I asked him what would happen if we didn't choose to worship the R. Queen and he told me that our characters will be banished/sent to the netherworld and we will have to create new ones. He also added that he'll be making an offer we couldn't refuse (cue in The Godfather theme...).
Is there a way to challenge this during the game? Could anyone suggest any loopholes or backstory which could defy the demands of the Raven Queen?
The Raven Queen is the god of Death, not the Dead. When the Raven Queen assumed power by ousting the previous god of the Dead, the other gods stepped in and allowed her to become the god of Death instead. Having absolute control over the souls of the Dead was deemed to be too much power for one deity ot hold (particularly given the fact that her power would increase daily, and gods measure time in milennia).
It certainly sounds like the DMs plan is that he intends the Raven Queen to assume the power that was denied to her (the only reason I can think for her to force the characters to forsake their previous gods and worship her). How would Kord and the other gods feel if they knew she was making a play to become the Lord of the Dead? I'm willing to bet that such an act would be the first thing to unite all of the gods to a common cause since the Dawn War.
Unless he intends to run a holy war, suggest that your characters be on loan to the Raven Queen, with the permission of the characters' respective deities, to fulfill her purpose before being allowed to continue their journey to their chosen deity's afterlife.
On the other hand, such a holy war might be the basis for a great campaign. It would make sense to me that the players be able to decide which side of that war they want to be on, and not the DM.
The way you have presented it here, the whole scenario with the Raven Queen is described as inevitable, with no player choice (other than retiring characters). If that's the case, the DM needs to chill out a little, read some articles on "Yes, and..."
Here are some suggestions for him:
- Raven Queen is not actually demanding the heroes "worship none but me", or even that they like her, but is demanding that they perform specific services for her in return from the rescue from death.
- Characters that backtalk the RQ when she makes her offer will be magically silenced and/or put under the command of characters who are more postive about the RQ's offer. Unless you are Epic, you don't argue with the gods. However, the RQ is powerless to force any such character to worship her.
- Raven Queen is asking for a different connection than "worship" to the PCs, and whatever her goals are, they happen to be aligned to any deity that a PC wishes to continue to worship.
- Kord turns up, argues with RQ. "You may have your little mission, and your mortal playthings, but this one is MINE!". Kord binds the Dragonborn over to do RQ's mission, but he makes it clear that the sorcerer remains a follower of Kord.
- The dragonborn serves the RQ in all appearance, however the link to Kord somehow becomes a secondary Warlock "Pact" for your character, so whatever boon is granted to the other PCs, the sorcerer gains an equivalent Kord-themed effect.
I'll share with you the results soon.
Thanks! :D
Your DM may do nothing about it, may shoot you dirty looks and keep going, might tell you to stop (big surprise for him when you say "ok mr. DM" and continue saying prayers to Kord - no one PLAYS your character but you), or he might DM-handwave your character dead, at which point you can build a new character, who STILL is under no compulsion to worship the Raven queen.
When he whines and moans about how no one is listening, remind him that the DM presents the story, but the characters make their own choices. DMs should keep their mitts off character choice.
coincidentally, i'm writing all this with my experiences as a DM in mind. Your DM won't necessarily LIKE it, but you're playing in character (your Dborn might be overly proud, lying to the RQ simply as a slap in the face - something like "lying for the cause of vengeance over a percieved slight to your honor is okay"), and you're not being "the a-hole player that just tries to ruin the game" - you're contributing to the story just fine by fervently going along with the quest. In fact your NON-allegiance to the RQ can form a focal point for the party to really RP the heck out of.
some players can think you're being ungrateful, some players can secretly (or not-so-secretly) think you're doing the right thing, and you can even try to convert some of them back AWAY from the RQ.
feel free to go nuts, but if the DM won't bend on his "you must worship the RQ" stance, then feel free to happily agree while lying through your (character's) teeth
So far, the way that the DM has presented his story plan to you, there is no way to 100% resist it in character. It is reasonable and realistic to act in character "I bow to no deity except Kord..." etc etc. A DM would be wise to look for player wishes in this sort of feedback, and adjust or augment the story so that it still moves forward incorporating his story ideas and player input.
The way you have presented it here, the whole scenario with the Raven Queen is described as inevitable, with no player choice (other than retiring characters). If that's the case, the DM needs to chill out a little, read some articles on "Yes, and..."
Here are some suggestions for him:
- Raven Queen is not actually demanding the heroes "worship none but me", or even that they like her, but is demanding that they perform specific services for her in return from the rescue from death.
- Characters that backtalk the RQ when she makes her offer will be magically silenced and/or put under the command of characters who are more postive about the RQ's offer. Unless you are Epic, you don't argue with the gods. However, the RQ is powerless to force any such character to worship her.
- Raven Queen is asking for a different connection than "worship" to the PCs, and whatever her goals are, they happen to be aligned to any deity that a PC wishes to continue to worship.
- Kord turns up, argues with RQ. "You may have your little mission, and your mortal playthings, but this one is MINE!". Kord binds the Dragonborn over to do RQ's mission, but he makes it clear that the sorcerer remains a follower of Kord.
- The dragonborn serves the RQ in all appearance, however the link to Kord somehow becomes a secondary Warlock "Pact" for your character, so whatever boon is granted to the other PCs, the sorcerer gains an equivalent Kord-themed effect.
All of these sound like very good options to suggest to your DM so that their campaign idea can go forward, and your character identity remains intact. I'll also suggest another unmentioned option:
- your character says "I appreciate your offer mighty goddess, but I have to respectfully say no thank you." The Raven Queen performs her assigned function, and passes your character's spirit along to the divine realm of Kord. Kord being so impressed with your personal loyalty to him resurrects your character anyway, without any strings attached by the Raven Queen.
Suggest this option to the DM, and recommend the Raven Queen ask your character last. After the other characters have accepted her offer let them stew a bit about your character getting free from the compulsory worship she has placed upon them. I think this can set up some fun and interesting in-party dynamics.
I hope this helps.
I have to admit, were it I, I would refuse the terms and simply change characters. I hate being railroaded, and I never play characters that worship anything, and even if I did I really don't find the RQ interesting, so this would be a triple-whammy of sucktasticness for me.
Just curious would my suggested modification above work for you, or is it the whole idea of a scripted party death which is bothering you?
I hope this helps.
I have to admit, were it I, I would refuse the terms and simply change characters. I hate being railroaded, and I never play characters that worship anything, and even if I did I really don't find the RQ interesting, so this would be a triple-whammy of sucktasticness for me.
Just curious would my suggested modification above work for you, or is it the whole idea of a scripted party death which is bothering you?
I hope this helps.
The scripted party death is only slightly bothersome to me. The 'DM telling me how to play my character' condition of the restoration is far more bothersome, but that revolves mostly around my personal dislike of playing characters who worship anything. I'm incapable of doing so in a way that doesn't become an annoying caricature, so I just don't.
As far as the modification 'working', that's kind of a yes and no. If the world has active and meddling gods, then that seems like a fine way around the situation; in that way, it works. My character wouldn't have anybody in a position to make the substitution, though, so in that way, it would not.
Wizards tend to have very high intelligence and limited skill choices. On top of that, the unique bonuses a human gets tend to work well with wizard.
This all adds up to most wizards i've seen tending to take training in religion (int-based skill available to wizards...).
Well, its always seemed really bland "hi, my name is Merlminster and i worship Ioun." So now i've got a wizard who kinda-but-not-really worships a god, and just happens to know a whole lot about them.
Well it works, but it just doesn't seem interesting to me.
After reading this and making my post, i decided an interesting spin on the "really high religion" would be a totally atheist character. Someone who believes the gods are all made up stories around certain powerful individuals or events.
Regardless of whether or not gods DO exist or are active in the game world, the character would be fun to play. It would likely have a little bit of "immunity" to divine intervention style stuff....sure, gods could physically affect him (similarly to how a powerful wizard could physically affect him), but no trans-continental inter-planar smitings or resurrections.
The most fun part, to me, would be making religion checks, and then passing the information along to the party in the form of something like : "well, the popular lies about Pelor seem to indicate that - assuming he existed at all, which he DOESN'T - wouldn't visit pain willingly on underprivelaged people"
Forcing characters to change their chosen deity is bad. Period. For in-character reasons, rules-related reasons, and player-centered reasons. Most of this ground has already been covered here, along with some options (many of them very good) to modify it. If the DM wants everyone to be Raven Queen worshipers, that should be laid out before the campaign starts, so characters can be built accordingly, either ready to convert or already RQ servants.
Thing is, though, the demand is itself unreasonable from within the polytheistic structure of the campaign setting. This isn't an exclusive-monotheist religion, where you only acknowledge a single God and ignore, deny, or denigrate all others; people will make offerings, oaths, etc., to whatever god is in charge of the specific area of need - fertility god for a good harvest, healer god for good health, travel god for a safe journey, etc. Unless the Raven Queen is going off the deep end (which can make for an entertaining campaign idea), the demand that everyone regard her as their particular personal matron is a bit silly and self-defeating - all it does is limit your talent pool (and offends all the other gods!).
On the other hand, the Raven Queen could demand a binding sacred oath, which should prompt at least the divine characters to check with their personal deities (an opportunity for some roleplaying, perhaps some specific advantages or limitations to be handed out, bargaining between gods, etc.). I think this would be a lot more fruitful for story seeds and roleplaying hooks than brute-force conversion to uniformity.
I have to admit, were it I, I would refuse the terms and simply change characters. I hate being railroaded, and I never play characters that worship anything, and even if I did I really don't find the RQ interesting, so this would be a triple-whammy of sucktasticness for me.
Just curious would my suggested modification above work for you, or is it the whole idea of a scripted party death which is bothering you?
I hope this helps.
The scripted party death is only slightly bothersome to me. The 'DM telling me how to play my character' condition of the restoration is far more bothersome, but that revolves mostly around my personal dislike of playing characters who worship anything. I'm incapable of doing so in a way that doesn't become an annoying caricature, so I just don't.
As far as the modification 'working', that's kind of a yes and no. If the world has active and meddling gods, then that seems like a fine way around the situation; in that way, it works. My character wouldn't have anybody in a position to make the substitution, though, so in that way, it would not.
This scenario would be difficult to present to an "unafiliated" character who was pretty adamant about remaining so. I do have a couple of options I would try as an alternative in your "character's" case if I wanted to begin the "core" of a campaign by killing off a party between levels 3 to 6.
How does your character feel about other powers such as greater spirits? You know, those beings which negotiate with shamans for services in lieu of deities. I'm curious to figure out how I might make something like this work for a player like yourself.
Thanks for your reply.
p.s. greater spirits and shamans are featured in my upcomming novels.
A character does not have to worship oly a sigle diety in D&D, they can worship multiple Dieties, and pay homage to many, many more. While some characters might, by the nature of the class and the background, be heavily restricted, others are not.
Which means it is possible to worship both Kord and the Raven Queen, and while another Diety, like Kord, might be the character's primary following, he can also pay homage to other dieties, or aspects that those dieties represent, turning to one or the other as the case might be suitable for. Kord represents Strength and Courage, which is the PC's main asperations, So in adventuring and combat he follows those aspects, however he can pay homage to the Raven Queen upons someone's death. "It was fated to be that he would fall by the sword that Kord gave me the strength to wield, the Raven Queen take his soul." as an example of someone following Kord, but recognizing the inevitability of fate.
Another way is to worship an aspect of a diety, that is limiting their worship to a particular area that the deity covers, and not their entire doctrine. A good example is the Raven Queen is also the diety of Winter. It would likely be common for peopl, regardless of what deity they normally worship, to pay homage or worship a particular diety connected to a season or event, so offering the Raven Queen worship during winter would not be suprising.
The point being that by accepting the Raven Queen as your diety does not need surplant one's existing diety, nor make her the primary deity, nor even mean more then token worship or homage.
How does your character feel about other powers such as greater spirits?
Similarly unconcerned. Basically, I cannot (and thus, do not attempt to) play 'spiritual' characters.
I think if I were told what the OP relayed, I'd just hand the DM my character sheet and tell them to give me a call when it was time for me to play my character my way. Then I'd go read a book. At least with the book, the railroading is expected.
which would be a really good way to make sure a FIRST TIME DM doesn't ever attempt to DM again, and therefore can't improve - not to mention really soiling a friendship...
While responding to this post i came up with one more idea....
Again, this is assuming the DM DOESN'T change his mind or respond to your "other" ideas.
Go with it. Let him know you disagree with his idea. If it messes with your fun playing the character (can't know for SURE until you get there in game), then let him know after each session that is less fun because of the change.
I know that me, and many other DMs (here and off the forums) crave feedback in order to improve.
So....let him use his idea....and then give him honest feedback!
A character does not have to worship oly a sigle diety in D&D, they can worship multiple Dieties, and pay homage to many, many more. While some characters might, by the nature of the class and the background, be heavily restricted, others are not.
I approve of this option. Your dragonborn throws the symbol of the RQ around his neck, next to Kord's. The latter gives him his fire and his drive, etc etc, and the former gave him back the opportunity to rock out in Kord's name, so he can at least show a little love.
this thread got me thinking about a new character personality idea.
Wizards tend to have very high intelligence and limited skill choices. On top of that, the unique bonuses a human gets tend to work well with wizard.
This all adds up to most wizards i've seen tending to take training in religion (int-based skill available to wizards...).
Well, its always seemed really bland "hi, my name is Merlminster and i worship Ioun." So now i've got a wizard who kinda-but-not-really worships a god, and just happens to know a whole lot about them.
Well it works, but it just doesn't seem interesting to me.
After reading this and making my post, i decided an interesting spin on the "really high religion" would be a totally atheist character. Someone who believes the gods are all made up stories around certain powerful individuals or events.
Regardless of whether or not gods DO exist or are active in the game world, the character would be fun to play. It would likely have a little bit of "immunity" to divine intervention style stuff....sure, gods could physically affect him (similarly to how a powerful wizard could physically affect him), but no trans-continental inter-planar smitings or resurrections.
The most fun part, to me, would be making religion checks, and then passing the information along to the party in the form of something like : "well, the popular lies about Pelor seem to indicate that - assuming he existed at all, which he DOESN'T - wouldn't visit pain willingly on underprivelaged people"
This would be like playing Richard Dawkins. He knows most there is to know about religion but is still not a believer.
The only twist is of course that in the D&D universe he would be wrong, though much of the same arguments would in fact work.
this thread got me thinking about a new character personality idea.
Wizards tend to have very high intelligence and limited skill choices. On top of that, the unique bonuses a human gets tend to work well with wizard.
This all adds up to most wizards i've seen tending to take training in religion (int-based skill available to wizards...).
Well, its always seemed really bland "hi, my name is Merlminster and i worship Ioun." So now i've got a wizard who kinda-but-not-really worships a god, and just happens to know a whole lot about them.
Well it works, but it just doesn't seem interesting to me.
After reading this and making my post, i decided an interesting spin on the "really high religion" would be a totally atheist character. Someone who believes the gods are all made up stories around certain powerful individuals or events.
Regardless of whether or not gods DO exist or are active in the game world, the character would be fun to play. It would likely have a little bit of "immunity" to divine intervention style stuff....sure, gods could physically affect him (similarly to how a powerful wizard could physically affect him), but no trans-continental inter-planar smitings or resurrections.
The most fun part, to me, would be making religion checks, and then passing the information along to the party in the form of something like : "well, the popular lies about Pelor seem to indicate that - assuming he existed at all, which he DOESN'T - wouldn't visit pain willingly on underprivelaged people"
This would be like playing Richard Dawkins. He knows most there is to know about religion but is still not a believer.
The only twist is of course that in the D&D universe he would be wrong, though much of the same arguments would in fact work.
The Athar from 2nd ed Planescape.
Bonus on saves ves holy and unholy attacks, because they believe strongly the powers (gods) are just really powerful entities and not gods. Immune to curse and bless- and not being helped by the faithful..
folk.uio.no/gahegsvo/rpg/planescape/fact...
Possibilities- this is a pathfinder variant on the faction:
guilesworld.sudymodesign.com/role-playin...
This would be like playing Richard Dawkins. He knows most there is to know about religion but is still not a believer.
The only twist is of course that in the D&D universe he would be wrong, though much of the same arguments would in fact work.
Depends on the D&D world. In Eberron, he might be right. In my game world, he is.
It isn't much like our world, where Religion A specifically denounced Religion B, even while Religion C specifically states that it's the only real truth. In Dungeons and Dragons, all of the "religions" are "true", because the gods really do exist. So even if your character worships Kord (because they love to fight!), there's no reason why they can't also worship the Raven Queen.
Anyway, sorry for the thread necro; just my 2 cp.
Sort of a thread necro, but I don't personally see what the big deal is: "religion" in D&D is very different from actual religions, primarily (but by no means solely) because there is absolutely no question as to whether or not the diety you're worshipping in D&D exists or not -- they do!
Again, depends on the game world. In Eberron, that is not true. They might, but they might not.