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deities and DM's

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
pantherlord
Jul 29, 2012 14:25:06 in 3.5 campaign if a DM is going to allow in the world of the campaign clerics of deities from other realms aside from that one. and they allow the playing of all alignments in an epic level campaign. is it not then illogical if they then have a Lawful Good "god" of "reality"? who prevents a chaotic deity from aiding their cleric when called uppon???
#2
salla
Jul 29, 2012 15:02:22 ... huh?
#3
LordManshoon
Jul 29, 2012 15:05:07
in 3.5 campaign if a DM is going to allow in the world of the campaign clerics of deities from other realms aside from that one. and they allow the playing of all alignments in an epic level campaign. is it not then illogical if they then have a Lawful Good "god" of "reality"? who prevents a chaotic deity from aiding their cleric when called uppon???

Your DM has allowed a LG god who suppresses chaotic deities' attempts to aid their faithful? And such clerics are thus denied spells and the like? Yeah, that sounds pretty obnoxious. Not sure why your DM thinks that's a good idea, because it's definitely not. It could make for an interesting storyline - Deity X tries to bring Deity Y under his thumb - but your character shouldn't be punished for worshipping a non-lawful good deity.

#4
CURBSTOMP
Jul 29, 2012 15:07:27 Well... three things:

1. Were you trying to get your character's deity to do something beyond what your character's build allows him to accomplish?

2. Is it possibly a plot event meant to engage your character? A temporary power nerf inconvenience to give you an antagonist for the campaign? (The blocking deity and his followers)

3. To actually answer your question Deities and Demigods covers the ground you are talking about.
     Basically in standard D&D some powerful overdeity is implied for 2 reasons: It's common to western
    culture (Deism, Christianity, Judaism, and even the old most of the pagan religions) which the
     majority of players hail from, and the Deities and Demigods creation mechanics do not allow for the
    building of the material plane by 'active deities' those tier 20 on down.

     They simply dont have enough control over the material plane to make the whole thing (rules-wise)
    except as a cooperative effort involving hundreds if not thousands of deities WHO ALL PICK
    CREATION-ORIENTED SALIENT ABILITIES, which is just silly. Takes a lot more record-keeping and
    makes the deities less unique.

     Deities and Demigods actually recommends a classic Deist version of a creator-god. One who
    built the material plane (and most of the others), set them up to run on their own, then walked
    away. Like a clock-maker. Your DM either missed that part or made a conscious choice to select
    something different, whether for a better game or for personal preference.

If the campaign is going to be a 'god-war' or a law vs chaos, it might have just been a suprising and effective lead-in to the plot. Then again he might just be screwing you over. The thing with an over-deity is (in D&D above rank 20) they are almost never supposed to act in a way that affects the PC's directly. If your DM has any questions about this quote the following straight from 3.5 Deities and Demigods rules:

    Rank 21+: These entities are beyond the ken of mortals and care nothing for worshipers. They do
   not grant spells, do not answer prayers, and do not respond to queries. If they are known at all, it is
   to a handful of scholars on the Material Plane. They are called overdeities. In some pantheistic
    systems, the consent of an overdeity is required to become a god.

However, if your DM was making a temporary plot point to establish villains... you should let it slide. He may just be trying to involve your character in the story or be giving you a GREAT chance to roleplay.
#5
pantherlord
Jul 29, 2012 15:14:12 thx for the assist. no there is no forth comming god war. another one of the players was praying to her deity for a miracle.. so.. will have to get a new copy of Deities and Demigods since my 3 yr old destroyed mine last year. and point this out... if i still get the issue... then guess i'll just have to find a new DM
#6
CURBSTOMP
Jul 29, 2012 15:26:29 Most of the Deities info is in the System Reference document for 3.5e and is free to download from WotC
#7
CURBSTOMP
Jul 29, 2012 15:30:35 And you COULD always mess with the DM by falling as a cleric and going Defiant or Ur-Priest.

My players have pulled that on me more than once.
#8
jeffb2066
Aug 08, 2012 18:16:15 Ok, took me a minute to digest what you were saying... in some campaigns, there is an 'overgod' who ultimately promotes/demotes/b***hslaps the various deities that mortals worship. In Forgotten Realms its Ao. But I think it would work a LOT better if your group all just sat down and decide which pantheon(s) you want to use. DM would have final say, since he has to plan the game around some aspects of religions, like the politics of different faiths and who's trying to destroy the world.

I don't agree with a DM using some 'god of reality' to interfere with a PC cleric. Let's put a little somewhat realistic logic on this: if one deity can interfere with other deities like that, preventing spellcasting 'just because', then most people would only worship that one deity because he/she is so powerful. Of course, like someone else said, it may have been a plot device for some upcoming adventures.

You can probably find a used Deities and Demigods on ebay pretty cheap, and maybe get a bundle of extra copies of other stuff with it.
#9
kethery
Aug 09, 2012 23:17:26 no need to buy he forgot to ask if i knew where the books were as i had hidden them from the children. though that did fubar my cleric oh well. i will need to explain what chaotic means to that dm though very annoying in and of itself

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 pantherlord Jul 29, 2012 14:25:06	in 3.5 campaign if a DM is going to allow in the world of the campaign clerics of deities from other realms aside from that one. and they allow the playing of all alignments in an epic level campaign. is it not then illogical if they then have a Lawful Good "god" of "reality"? who prevents a chaotic deity from aiding their cleric when called uppon???
#2 salla Jul 29, 2012 15:02:22	... huh?
#3 LordManshoon Jul 29, 2012 15:05:07	in 3.5 campaign if a DM is going to allow in the world of the campaign clerics of deities from other realms aside from that one. and they allow the playing of all alignments in an epic level campaign. is it not then illogical if they then have a Lawful Good "god" of "reality"? who prevents a chaotic deity from aiding their cleric when called uppon??? Your DM has allowed a LG god who suppresses chaotic deities' attempts to aid their faithful? And such clerics are thus denied spells and the like? Yeah, that sounds pretty obnoxious. Not sure why your DM thinks that's a good idea, because it's definitely not. It could make for an interesting storyline - Deity X tries to bring Deity Y under his thumb - but your character shouldn't be punished for worshipping a non-lawful good deity.
#4 CURBSTOMP Jul 29, 2012 15:07:27	Well... three things: 1. Were you trying to get your character's deity to do something beyond what your character's build allows him to accomplish? 2. Is it possibly a plot event meant to engage your character? A temporary power nerf inconvenience to give you an antagonist for the campaign? (The blocking deity and his followers) 3. To actually answer your question Deities and Demigods covers the ground you are talking about. Basically in standard D&D some powerful overdeity is implied for 2 reasons: It's common to western culture (Deism, Christianity, Judaism, and even the old most of the pagan religions) which the majority of players hail from, and the Deities and Demigods creation mechanics do not allow for the building of the material plane by 'active deities' those tier 20 on down. They simply dont have enough control over the material plane to make the whole thing (rules-wise) except as a cooperative effort involving hundreds if not thousands of deities WHO ALL PICK CREATION-ORIENTED SALIENT ABILITIES, which is just silly. Takes a lot more record-keeping and makes the deities less unique. Deities and Demigods actually recommends a classic Deist version of a creator-god. One who built the material plane (and most of the others), set them up to run on their own, then walked away. Like a clock-maker. Your DM either missed that part or made a conscious choice to select something different, whether for a better game or for personal preference. If the campaign is going to be a 'god-war' or a law vs chaos, it might have just been a suprising and effective lead-in to the plot. Then again he might just be screwing you over. The thing with an over-deity is (in D&D above rank 20) they are almost never supposed to act in a way that affects the PC's directly. If your DM has any questions about this quote the following straight from 3.5 Deities and Demigods rules: Rank 21+: These entities are beyond the ken of mortals and care nothing for worshipers. They do not grant spells, do not answer prayers, and do not respond to queries. If they are known at all, it is to a handful of scholars on the Material Plane. They are called overdeities. In some pantheistic systems, the consent of an overdeity is required to become a god. However, if your DM was making a temporary plot point to establish villains... you should let it slide. He may just be trying to involve your character in the story or be giving you a GREAT chance to roleplay.
#5 pantherlord Jul 29, 2012 15:14:12	thx for the assist. no there is no forth comming god war. another one of the players was praying to her deity for a miracle.. so.. will have to get a new copy of Deities and Demigods since my 3 yr old destroyed mine last year. and point this out... if i still get the issue... then guess i'll just have to find a new DM
#6 CURBSTOMP Jul 29, 2012 15:26:29	Most of the Deities info is in the System Reference document for 3.5e and is free to download from WotC
#7 CURBSTOMP Jul 29, 2012 15:30:35	And you COULD always mess with the DM by falling as a cleric and going Defiant or Ur-Priest. My players have pulled that on me more than once.
#8 jeffb2066 Aug 08, 2012 18:16:15	Ok, took me a minute to digest what you were saying... in some campaigns, there is an 'overgod' who ultimately promotes/demotes/b***hslaps the various deities that mortals worship. In Forgotten Realms its Ao. But I think it would work a LOT better if your group all just sat down and decide which pantheon(s) you want to use. DM would have final say, since he has to plan the game around some aspects of religions, like the politics of different faiths and who's trying to destroy the world. I don't agree with a DM using some 'god of reality' to interfere with a PC cleric. Let's put a little somewhat realistic logic on this: if one deity can interfere with other deities like that, preventing spellcasting 'just because', then most people would only worship that one deity because he/she is so powerful. Of course, like someone else said, it may have been a plot device for some upcoming adventures. You can probably find a used Deities and Demigods on ebay pretty cheap, and maybe get a bundle of extra copies of other stuff with it.
#9 kethery Aug 09, 2012 23:17:26	no need to buy he forgot to ask if i knew where the books were as i had hidden them from the children. though that did fubar my cleric oh well. i will need to explain what chaotic means to that dm though very annoying in and of itself