Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Jargon May 25, 2014 21:01:04	I had an incedent today wherein an elven opponent struck one of my allies with an attack. The DM rolled the enemy's attack roll (a 24, I believe, beating our whirling barbarian's AC by 4), and declared it a hit. I declared I was going to interrupt the attack with Dimensional Vortex (a level 3 swordmage encounter power from Arcane Power). Dimensional Vortex triggers when an enemy hits an ally with an attack. If hit, the enemy is teleported 5 squares and makes the attack against a creature you choose. It is widely accepted among the community (from what I have seen) that the enemy uses the previously rolled attack roll and resolves the rest of the attack normally (damage, effects, etcetera).   The DM in question then declared he was using elven accuracy to re-roll the attack. I argued that since a hit result had already been ratified, the opportunity to use elven accuracy had passed.   The DM argued (and ruled) that since elven accuracy was a free action, the enemy could use it whenever they wanted before damage has been rolled. It is my interpretation that (though it is not implicitly stated) elven accuracy's window of opportunity takes place as a part of the attack roll itself, and once a hit has been declared, it is too late for the reroll to occur, no matter what happens after the hit is declared.   I *did* jump on interrupting the attack immediately after the attack was declared a hit, giving the DM little opportunity to use EA, which was another argument the DM used; but the DM was almost certainly not anticipating my using Dimensional Vortex as I haven't really had it very long or used it yet, and would otherwise have had no reason to trigger elven accuracy after a successful attack. I'm simply wondering what the community consensus would be on each of our arguements. The DM's ruling, that EA can occur at any time before damage or other hit effects are resolved, even if a hit is declared and a power that can only trigger on a hit is used on that attack in order to make the attack miss, or mine; that once a hit is declared and abilities that trigger on hits are declared, the opportunity to reroll with EA is gone. TL;DR: Can elven accuracy be used by an enemy to change a hit to a miss after an interrupt power that triggers on hit and causes the hit to affect that or another enemy instead of its original target has been used?
#2 Krusk May 26, 2014 11:22:39	I would think so, a free action is usable at any time. The only limit I've seen is "DMs discretion". I'd assume he discerns its cool whenever he wants to do it.    Also, IIRC the swordmage thing requires him to make a new attack roll, not use previously used ones. IIRC you also have to choose to use your power before dice are rolled or success is known. Once he takes his action and rolls dice it has happened, and can't be stopped unless things explicitley call out that they can.    (Haven't played 4e in like 1.5 years so I could be off)
(Reply to #2) Jargon	The power I'm using triggers on a hit, so the attack needs to be a successful hit before I can use it. If the enemy then has to roll again to see if it hits the new target, then yeah, using EA would make sense. The consensus I've gotten from other threads I've searched, however, is that the successful attack roll is used on the new target. So really, the attack is already successful, I'm just switching who it effects. The way I understand it, most folks agree the power works this way because otherwise 3 successful attack rolls would be required for it to work to full effect. The enemy's attack against your ally, then your attack against that enemy's will, then the enemy's attack against the new target. The third required attack roll would take it from strong, if situational, to unreliable and possibly less useful than an aegis trigger. Thanks for the feedback though, and I won't be too bummed if the dm continues to rule it the way he has (since the situation in question is likely to be somewhat rare). 4e's ruleset could have used another edition of love to tighten up the amorphous spaces in the mechanics. I think I might write up some codified action phases into some house rules. Declaration phase, attack roll phase, resolution phase etcetera etc...
#4 Krusk May 27, 2014 6:55:41	Who are most folks and other threads? Those sound like generic and abstract concepts to make your point of view seem more believeable. Links would really help settle this.    Digs out 4e books.......   "Trigger: An enemy hits an ally with a melee attack" Hit: You teleport the target 5 squares. The target then makes its melee attack against a creature you choose. If no creatures are within range of the target, the attack is expended"   Reading that, you are right. The attack has to hit, but I'm still going to side with the DM. "The target then makes its melee attack" leads me to think it makes another melee attack. Otherwise they would say "The target then resolves its melee attack".
#5 thespaceinvader May 27, 2014 7:50:52	Krusk wrote:
#6 Fardiz May 27, 2014 8:44:47	thespaceinvader wrote:
#7 Seth_Ulrik Jun 09, 2014 0:44:01	That is also how it's ruled at our table with our Swordmage. A separate attack roll against the new target, and if used on the right taget against the right second target, you can impose some problems for the DM. (BBEG has awesome status inducing attack with a solid to hit? He just smacked his comrade with it!)
#8 Noon Jun 16, 2014 17:13:48	If he can use the power regardless of whether it's a miss or not, then he could use it. You need to pause to allow him to choose to roll it.   That's my technical reading.
#9 BRJN Jul 03, 2014 18:44:13	Ummm ... since the DM's original attack roll HIT, why would he need to use Elven Accuracy on it?  If the second attack roll (which you picked the target) turned out to be something he disliked, he could then invoke his EA re-roll normally.
#10 Noctaem Jul 03, 2014 18:55:01	in order to try to turn the hit into a miss against his monster.