Okay, my DM has made a setting where the gods have pretty much abandoned mankind(just humans). In this setting, the gods aren't liked by most humans for obvious reasons. Knowing the setting, I thought it obvious to make my assassin character's MO to kill those that serve the gods, namely clerics and paladins. I explained to my DM that I was a fanatic, who would be willing to do pretty much anything if it meant killing a servant of a deity.
DM approved my character and his goals, but then introduces our main quest providing npc. Turns out, this guy is a half-celestial. My character feels he has to kill this celestial, and I've devised such a plan to pull it off that involves the whole party, as to not steal the spot light. There should be no problem here, but my DM keeps throwin in all these things to try to keep me from going through with this, (his fort save is too high, youll never make yer death attack-if you kill him, his god will kill you) None of these things really phase me, and there's no reason that IF my character could know them, that it would phase him either. What worries me is that I think the DM is really attached to this character, as he constantly is trying to convince me not to kill him. I also am not sure whether the DM is competant enough to keep the story flowing after he dies.
So....should I kill this half-celestial, and if not, what is a decent role-play reason why my god-hating LE assassin isn't killing this servant of Bahamut?
Thanks fellas!
Interesting problem.
I say: Talk to your DM about it, and find out if your DM really is attached to this NPC. Hash out the problem.
If you need a reason to avoid killing him, rationalize that the NPC is feeding your PC useful information, and you're just not killing the NPC yet.
Well, I've talked to him, the DM doesn't say he's attached, but I think he's just trying to seem proffessional. Not sure entirely. *shrugs*
Good idea on the rationalization...only thing I can think of better than killing an angel is killing a god...so, perhaps I should encourage my DM to lead my character along by having his half-celestial pretend that my char someday could have power enough for deicide. I dont even know if that's possible in dnd, but, it's good enough to trick my char. Think this would be a good approach?
thanks Brentnewhall!
Sounds like he's to attached to me, however if he says that he's not to attached I'd kill him anyway, because obviously the DM isn't too attached right? Good times.
Your other plan is much more diplomatic and if you think that'll work go for it. Personally I hate it when DM's create un-killable/un-fighatble favorite NPC's it hurts the game and takes the spot light away from the characters at times...and the story is about the characters after all. Sounds like your DM is putting his character first, IMO. The reason I say this is because if he was putting your character first he'd let you plan to kill the NPC. Hell he could even design it so it's a failed attempt and sets off another story or something.
Er, if you even do something bad to this guy, the gods will smite you? I understand that clerics are connected with the god, but that line bugs me because it seems like this is invincible DMPC. Ask your DM what his intentions were for this PC, er, NPC. See if any little red flags pop up in his description.
What happens if you send Mr. I'm So Holy at the BBEG/Goal/Whatever, anyway? The Half-Angel has freaking divine protection! I imagine if you told the DM the angel would see through the deception, but perhaps my perceptions are coloring my expecations. However, why not use him for your own ends? Tricking him into falling or ruining the reputation of gods would be extremely tricky.I wonder if a being which is mind controlled into attacking him will still fall prey to this divine smiting.
However, before getting a TPK I would consider asking the party if they are okay killing themselves for this plan, knowing that it is likely to get them all killed. Make up some back ups just in case, if you intend to play with this guy again. I am not you, but it seems to me that justifying playing nice with Flappy isn't going to work. However, you need to be aware of the effects this will have on others fun, and if the DM can handle this maturely.
First I don't think your alignment would allow it since your lawful(Since murder is almost always unlawful).
Personally I would play along with it has long has it usefull for him to go with him. Following something like it says in Book of Vile Darkness page 7 under theft "For example, a drow cleric might pay a rogue for a magic item. The cleric isn't averse to stealing from the rogue, but she pays for the item so that the rogue will continue working for her"
However, before getting a TPK I would consider asking the party if they are okay killing themselves for this plan, knowing that it is likely to get them all killed. Make up some back ups just in case, if you intend to play with this guy again. I am not you, but it seems to me that justifying playing nice with Flappy isn't going to work. However, you need to be aware of the effects this will have on others fun, and if the DM can handle this maturely.
Good point there. My character can die for this, but I never considered the likelyhood of the other PCs gettin offed. I did make my plan in a way that I am the only one near this angel when this happens, as I will be the one stabbing him in the back. Perhaps that's not enough though, I'll double check with the PCs and let them know the risk. Thanks folks fer all the good advice.
It's really simple.
Out-of-game, this guy is the hand that feeds the party.
Rule Number One: No Matter How Cool Or In-Character Something Is, You Don't Screw Over The Party Or Irritate The DM.
In order to preserve everybody's fun in the game, no matter how fanatical/antisocial/insane/evil your character is, the party is never to be subject to your "in-character" antics. Whacking this half-celestial is going to tick off the DM and possibly lose the party access to information or quests.
Sort-of-out-of-game: A Lawful Evil character uses the rules to his advantage, and is perfectly willing to work with anyone to further their goals, even if it means helping people they'd otherwise be diametrically opposed to with their goals. Fanatical doesn't necessarily mean stupid. A character who immediately slew every cleric in the game on sight would go down in a hail of town guardsmans' arrows before they hit second level. You could easily play the entire campaign rubbing your hands and plotting this fool's downfall, waiting for the "opportune moment" while taking advantage of and using him for your (the party's) benefit, and never actually go through with seriously trying to kill him or even betraying him.
In-game: "I'm letting him live because it's advantageous to do so for now - I hold his life in my hands, can kill him at any moment, and I shall do so without mercy at the perfect moment - I'm merely prolonging his demise so that I may savor it all the more."
You're a fanatic, and those kinds of people live their entire lives according to justifications that almost never make any logical sense - a true fanatic is no where even close to being plugged into reality and can rationalize or justify anything, no matter how contradictory, so that it fits into their belief system.
So go ahead and tell yourself that you're using him, setting him up, just waiting for the right moment to strike, etc... And just sort of ignore the fact that, well, you can't actually do any of those things...yet. Yet. 
Don't get me wrong, I have a sense of subtlety. I never just kill folks on sight, and always cover my tracks. Also, the party is with me either way, (benefits of a mostly neutral party). Though, the only thing that my character really cares about is getting sucker-punches in on the gods. So, as long as I think keepin the angel alive will do this, I'm game for it.
I'd like to also defend my roleplaying here. There's no reason a lawful evil can't kill, as long as it meets his goals. And, my character isn't antisocial 
, he's actually a nice guy...he also kills evil folks too. Just, nice doesn't mean good. The only thing that even makes him evil and not neutral is the fact that he is motivated by unconditional hatred. Otherwise, he'd probably be more like a gray paladin.
Why does your character not want to kill this guy?
Because of the delicious irony that a half celestial is leading you straight to each and every one of your victums! He points the bow, to the perverbial arrow that you are.
*insert evil laugh here*
This is also a good idea...though, it's not happened yet, it still is likely to happen...next up is a lich, maybe he's a cleric?! Or at least perhaps actively serving some sorta evil god.
Good thoughts all, much appreciated.
First I don't think your alignment would allow it since your lawful(Since murder is almost always unlawful).
Personally I would play along with it has long has it usefull for him to go with him. Following something like it says in Book of Vile Darkness page 7 under theft "For example, a drow cleric might pay a rogue for a magic item. The cleric isn't averse to stealing from the rogue, but she pays for the item so that the rogue will continue working for her"
Actually, the assassin would be following his code, as defined by the fact anything connected to the gods must die. Very lawful; it is what he is ment to do. Murder with no purpose is chaotic; murder to extend a specific agenda is lawful.
^ My thoughts exactly!
You are trying to roleplay your character by setting him up as an obsessed, literal minded killer? An assasin out to kill everyone that he doesn't like is not an assasin, he's a CE psycho.
Take a step back from your concept for a moment and think about the meta game. You want to kill an intended friendly, with no explicit provocation, that's in the game solely to provide you with a quest. That's being antagonistic with the DM, somewhat on par with backstabbing another player's PC. Most players respond rather poorly to other players that want to do distruptive things to their PC's, even when it is roleplaying. They have, after all, spent alot of time and effort on their character and have an expectation that the group is working together cooperatively. Doing otherwise is breaking the social contract between the players at the table. Now imagine the DM. He's not playing a character, but the adventure he has prepared is emotionally the same to him as your PC is to you. He knows you are going to tear through the adventure and likely do unexpected things. However, there is a social contract in play here too. The DM expects that the players make a reasonable attempt to adapt themselves to the adventure, to find a reason to go along with the other players, to take the adventure hook and interact positively with friendly NPC's. So naturally, your attempt at insta-killing an important plot related friendly NPC gets a reaction out the DM.
Yes, his response is probably inappropriate. He should just tell you that if you proceed on this path then he's going to have to ditch the adventure he's prepared, or rework it, and he'd rather you found a way to roleplay and go along with the adventure. Too much wasted effort on the DM's part takes the fun out of the game for the DM. He's one of the people at the table too.
You are trying to roleplay your character by setting him up as an obsessed, literal minded killer? An assasin out to kill everyone that he doesn't like is not an assasin, he's a CE psycho.
That'd be true if it at all applied to my case. I'm not killing everyone I don't like. I have a very strict code, which I follow. I'm a little peeved I have to keep defending my roleplaying...this setting isn't normal, I've already estabolished that the gods are jerks to humans, and this means in general there aren't many clerics or paladins. This means I have to track them down and find them, and they all work with the very specific credo my character has! I'm not sure how doing this makes me a CE psycho. What would your LE assassin do? He would kill no one ever, cause it'd be wrong?
ANYWAY... Update on the situation. Talked it out with my DM, who is actually considerably excited now, being in the time I've been trying to find a compromise, he has been coming up with a good way to use his NPC's death to expand the plot. He's keeping me in the dark, but he did tell me he is now completely okay with his character's death, but I was warned that his CR is about 50. He still raised his stats considerably, as he figured he aughta make it more challenging to kill this critter, but no longer does it feel as if he's trying to make him unkillable. We(players) have made a more foolproof plan under his advice, so, after I get done using him(DM also did a good job of making that a factor) the party will strike!
Thanks yall for the help!
Seems to me you DM is being very immature, a half celestial at cr 50 should be slaying demon princes in the morning, taking his pet dragon god, Bahamaut out for a walk and still have time to take a nap before his power lunch with lord Ao.... IMO anyone who is more than 5 level above the parties level probably has an employee/servant of some kind to deal with the PC's for him.
Given this is so, forget killing him, just try and use him to your advantage, as many of the other posters have suggested.
What level is your group btw?
Well, I've talked to him, the DM doesn't say he's attached, but I think he's just trying to seem proffessional. Not sure entirely. *shrugs*
It's a game, there's nothing professional about sitting back with friends and playing a game. He he he.
Actually, the assassin would be following his code, as defined by the fact anything connected to the gods must die. Very lawful; it is what he is ment to do. Murder with no purpose is chaotic; murder to extend a specific agenda is lawful.
However this would be tempered by the need to rein in chaotic urges against the NPC to use him then destroy him. A lawful character would work within the social framework and justify any action based on the laws of his surroundings or the laws of his order or guild. The PC would probably be wrestling internally with the impulse to kill versus the need to keep the NPC alive because of social or expedient economic concerns.
Someone else put it well above - the character should not compromise the party's ultimate goals by being a bloodthirsty fanatic.
However this would be tempered by the need to rein in chaotic urges against the NPC to use him then destroy him. A lawful character would work within the social framework and justify any action based on the laws of his surroundings or the laws of his order or guild. The PC would probably be wrestling internally with the impulse to kill versus the need to keep the NPC alive because of social or expedient economic concerns.Someone else put it well above - the character should not compromise the party's ultimate goals by being a bloodthirsty fanatic.
Actually, a lawful character never needs to work within any exterior framework. A LG paladin never needs to follow the laws of an evil society, but he is inclined to respect them to a degree, as long as they do not interfere with his own morals. A LE character would react the same way in a good society. He wouldn't need the wrestle with his desire to murder; in fact, that is a close definition of a CE character. Wanton death and destruction is the premise of Chaos; LE would kill, but to further it's own ends. And would avoid it if necessary.
The Evil part of LE seems to make you think that a character has to kill puppies and eat babies whenever available; that being evil makes you more impulsive. Evil just implies selfish and without compassion, a character more inclined to hurt or kill when they want something. Perfect examples of a LE character are Hannibal Lector and Darth Vader. Very self-controlled, killing only when they deem necessary.
Perfect examples of a LE character are Hannibal Lector and Darth Vader. Very self-controlled, killing only when they deem necessary.
Absolutely agree with this statement in particular.
LE still kills, but calculatedly and weighing up the best way to do it rather than just taking an axe to someone's head.
Good example, and this is my character. In fact, if you had not seen my character kill, you'd never guess he was evil, much like Hannibal as stated. My character has self-control, and isn't going to kill this celestial on the streets spontaneously all of a sudden. As for sabotaging the party goals, the party is completely neutral, both in allignment and in this situation. We've only been doing the quests for this guy so far under the pretense that he'd kill those that wouldn't help(I know, seems unfitting of a lawful good character, but...perhaps there's a good reason for it.) This being said, it's in my parties interest to do either thing. And, most of the party really wants to see if we can pull it off.
We've only been doing the quests for this guy so far under the pretense that he'd kill those that wouldn't help
... Wait, why hasn't your guy killed him yet? He's a half-celestial (something your character hates), and he's explicitly threatened you? Sorry, but if you've been threatened then even if you were *good* I'd say you have a valid reason to engage in combat.
Mainly cause the dm kept making him tougher...which led me to believe he was really attached, and obviously stalled me for mechanics reasons. I know completely that MY character should kill this guy, this isn't the question, the question was always, should I out of character find a reason to not kill this guy for the sake of civility? As before mentioned, players are game for this plan, always have been, the sole issue was if I thought it'd be overly jerky to the DM. However, the issue's been resolved already, now I just gotta figure out HOW to kill a CR50 angel...with a party consisting of a wizard, an assassin, a somin-or-other werewolf, and...sigh.... a commoner...
I feel your pain, my DM's major NPCs ALWAYS have some epic level champion who keeps the guy safe. I hope I can help you kill 'em. If you can find a stat of his that is low, poision him to damage it, if it goes to 0, slaughter him while he is helpless.
If that fails, perhaps you can find a way to disconect him from his deity. It would most likely strip him of his strongest powers...Alas, to fight a CR 50 is nigh impossable. If your wizard is high enough level to cast Wish, use it to force his alignment to some form of evil. the deity he serves likely leave him untill some cleric Attoned for being evil, costing him divinly granted powers and the clerical spells he likely can weild.
Of corse, you could hide your wizard out and snipe with save or die spells till he gets a natural 1... but your assasin needs to be the one who deals the killing blow based on what you've told me. I do fear that if he is such a favorite of his god (or the DM) he may just be returned from the dead directly by his god. Trapping his soul could work, but that would be VERY expensive.
The bottom line: unless your very lucky or ultra-epic he isn't going down, and he could easily just come right back to life.
.....take it to a tavern....get it drunk annnnndddddd let a let few bar maids leave with him.....problem solved: he will fall from grace in blur of shame and ale- he will be mortified in which a few well properly diplomacy rolls will gets him to something worse than death: a will in which not LE character could never love more.....
Sounds to me like this celestial probably has an important role to play and your DM doesn't want you ruining his story. Don't kill him.