Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 grey_mu_gamma May 22, 2009 19:19:08	I play in a 4e session with 7 so players. We have just had a session, in which the DM has unreasonably disagreed and nearly killed a character over an idea. I am doing this so later I can bring it to his attention so he may reconsider for future purposes. Our Characters have just gotten through a war that lasted one year. My character, an elf avenger who is a reincarnated conquer from 1000+ years ago, suggested that we rob the treasury because rewards for soldiers where low in the town. The DM remarked it would be hard, the treasury had diamond plates on it. I shrugged it off; this was a unreasonable action, but I could find a way around it. So, I devised that our group split into 3 teams, 2 to distract the guards (1000). We then agreed the third team would sneak in and steal the gold, load it on our horses, and ride off with the loot. How it went (shortened): Team 1: "We 'fake fight', and any guard that approaches gets beaten to a pulp." DM: "You draw away 500." Team 2 (All female characters): "We flirt them." DM: "Wow, the rest gather around." Team 3 (Thinking this is cake): "We go in, dressed in beat up guards armor." DM: "You are approached by a guard, who interrogates you as Captain ----." Me: "Stand aside, I am going to inspect the welfare of the treasury." I pick up a small rat (which was the druid that had previously been nearly killed by a bunch of archers still in rat form) as I approach to door, my accomplice." Team 3: "We loot the treasury, our bags of holding bulging with gold." DM: "Suddenly, you see a black orb appear, THE SPHERE OF ANNIHILATION!!!!!" All: "OH NO!!!" (PS, we are lvl 7, the sphere is like 29) I get blasted to death, loose 100k+ gold, and am left with nothing. The rest survive with gold I transported out via attack. I am upset about this, for my DM is one of those DM's that prefer good ALWAYS. My past, alignment, and the rest of the groups alignments support it, and we are fairly poor. Please comment back with ideas on how to come about the problem. If so please leave comments so the DM can read it without killing me. Thanks guys. -Written by Grey_Mu_Gamma, edited by FoxTrott. EDIT: This town was laid seige for a year, and is very poor acording to DM.
#2 CriticalBastard May 22, 2009 19:37:35	There is a much larger problem here, and that is that you don't feel that you can talk through it with your DM. Have you tried talking to him about it? Is he answering your questions? You guys should talk about it after you are both chill.
#3 lord_karsus May 22, 2009 21:37:26	-Did you think maybe, for whatever reason, there's a reason that there was a massive spell in there? If it was the royal treasury, has so much money stored in it, and is protected by 'diamond plate', I for one would think that it'd be pretty secure. I don't necessarily agree with the way the DM went about it, from how you described it, but I for one would expect it not to be a cakewalk, especially with enough money to seriously upset the balance of the game, if you decided to keep it all for yourselves.
#4 ostracized May 22, 2009 22:34:32	Maybe its just me... but this is a joke right? Fake fighting draws away 500 men. A few flirting girls draw away the other half? To be honest this seems like a game over over the top already. Diamond Plate doors? Hundreds of guards... and the plan you came up with is "distraction"? The game is already over the top, an Orb of Annihilation doesnt sound so far fetched in this campaign. More then likely the idea of characters getting away with hundreds of thousands of gold at lvl 7 would have ended any campaign and these characters would be retired. Granted a good DM would have handled is A LOT better... but what he did makes sense with the world you are in.
#5 kyros_tachyus May 23, 2009 0:30:06	Did you ever consider for a second that perhaps the DM may be reserving this particular area for you in the hopes you can come back and get to it when you are higher level? Talk it over with him Player to DM when you cool your jets...
#6 ciaran May 23, 2009 2:51:29	DMs with a tendancy to "railroad" are a bad thing, but (i'm going on the assumption that the group is somewhat new) at some point a DM has to show the PCs that there are in fact powers greater than them. The DM cold have said that you are struck down by divine retribution, but instead choose to role-play it out. The reason I say this is that methods to increase wealth that don't go through mundane means usually end in failure. A DM exerts a certain control over his world by how much wealth is available to the PCs. Using means such as minting your own coins or using spells to make money or stealing are likely to disrupt this balance. The DM did not appreciate your indiscretion.
#7 thorn-wychkin May 23, 2009 3:04:36	that trap was ridiculously high levelled. people of the pcs caliber are rare and so it's not realistic that a trap of level 29 would be in there in the first place. he could have simply had you guys run into some guards and have to run. there is no way the pcs would hav ebeen able to transport more than a few thousand gold while fighting on the run
#8 grey_mu_gamma May 23, 2009 10:40:43	I see. So he thought that wanting cash was bad? Also, in the real world, there is people who do rob banks, and get away with it. I am just erritated that he didn't even offer a way out.
#9 Dralenan May 23, 2009 10:43:14	Well, there are a number of problems here. One thing is that the DM has established that this one area is too high a level for your characters. When you insisted on going in, he attempted to warn the party (in a roundabout way) that going in was a bad idea. They went in anyway, and it was the equivalent of sending a party against an ancient red dragon. It was a jerk way for him to do it, but he did warn the party. It was a case of the party doing something stupid. There are other problems though, caused by his lack of wanting the party to succeed. Like (assuming everything is mentioned and nothing was left out), having the captain automatically suspect the party on sight and begin interrogating them. Also the idea that the party is always poor, this is also the cause of the DM. I could nitpick this scenario on and on, but I've made my point. The problem with a DM conflict is the DM has final say on most things. If you disagree with your DM, you have three options. You can talk with the DM and try to change his mind. You can work with the group as is, and put up with it, and adapt. Or you can quit the group.
#10 jutter May 23, 2009 11:02:44	Character wealth has always been an important part of balance. Your DM's first reactions were "Getting this amount of wealth should be very hard" and "The players have the right to try it and have a chance (however small) to actually make it". Both are very good DM reactions. You were bound to run into an encounter of extremely high level, or a high level trap. And yes, there was a reasonable chance of character death. I think the execution was handled poorly though. Distracting 500 guards with a fist fight or flirting girls? A sphere of annihilation in your treasure vault? But anyway, the basis of his idea was OK.
#11 borris May 23, 2009 11:44:08	At first I thought your group had to be of epic level, or close enough. Anyone with the ressources to hire one thousand guards on active duty and reinforce his vault with diamond plates must also have built expensive and powerful traps. There's no way a group of seven 7th-level characters should be able to pull this off. Faking a fight and beating down the guards as they approach may work fine for a group of 4 or 5, but even with the guards as 1st-level monsters, there's no way group of 3 PCs could take down 50, let alone 500. Same with 2 or 3 girls flirting. This should have attracted a handful of guards, but not hundreds of them. With them guarding what may be the richest treasury in the world, you'd expect them to be a bit more professional about their job. And for 500 guards to be posted there, they'd have to be spread out over such a large area that most wouldn't even have seen the fake fight or the flirting girls. The DM made is clear from the start that robbing this place would be very hard, and that whoever owned the treasury had the means to afford extremely powerful security (who else would buy diamond plating). The problem I see is that, even though it was supposed to be a near-impossible task, the DM allowed the start of the plan to work way too easily. Distracting the guards worked with hardly any work on your part, and they he throws a monster twenty levels above your party. As if he wanted to kill someone to teach you a lesson. Besides, a sphere of anihilation is a pretty bad trap to place in a treasure vault. Whoever owned that place just disintegrated 100k+ of his own gold. In the end, you end up with a dead character, and the party still manages to escape with the gold, potentially upseting the game's balance.
#12 kyros_tachyus May 23, 2009 12:28:45	Talk it over if you feel slighted.
#13 bone_naga May 23, 2009 12:47:51	that trap was ridiculously high levelled. people of the pcs caliber are rare and so it's not realistic that a trap of level 29 would be in there in the first place. he could have simply had you guys run into some guards and have to run. there is no way the pcs would hav ebeen able to transport more than a few thousand gold while fighting on the run Unless that place wasn't intended for the PCs until they were a higher level. I have some areas like that in my campaign world (granted I warned them that such areas existed before the campaign started). They know that some places just aren't smart for them to go to yet.
#14 myrwen_dup May 23, 2009 15:30:41	The problem I see is that, even though it was supposed to be a near-impossible task, the DM allowed the start of the plan to work way too easily. Distracting the guards worked with hardly any work on your part I agree, but I can also picture a DM harassed (just read tone of OP) by a big-mouthed overgreedy character (shall I say player) and deciding to burn the bridges and let it go. Of course it's impossible for 2-3 PC to distract 500 guards by a fake fight, but alternative is a new round of argumentation and/or whining from such player character so let it go Of course it's impossible for 2.3 PC to flirt with 500 guards, but the alternative ... Of course there is no chance to bluff or intimidate the captain, but the alternative... And now, at least, a very tired DM kills the annoying PC Not the best scenario, but I've so often encountered such players that I can understand this DM and sympathize with him.
#15 grey_mu_gamma May 23, 2009 16:37:31	I agree, but I can also picture a DM harassed (just read tone of OP) by a big-mouthed overgreedy character (shall I say player) and deciding to burn the bridges and let it go. Of course it's impossible for 2-3 PC to distract 500 guards by a fake fight, but alternative is a new round of argumentation and/or whining from such player character so let it go Of course it's impossible for 2.3 PC to flirt with 500 guards, but the alternative ... Of course there is no chance to bluff or intimidate the captain, but the alternative... And now, at least, a very tired DM kills the annoying PC Not the best scenario, but I've so often encountered such players that I can understand this DM and sympathize with him. The thing is, HE said it drew 500 players, not me. I was hoping for at best 100, tops. I just wanted an opening. PS~the whole, 1 mill idea, WHO said that? I wanted some quick gold, which he didn't provide or chage prices to acomidate it.
#16 Shiftkitty May 23, 2009 17:13:39	It sounds to me like your DM isn't that good at improv. 500 people all suddenly distracted by a fist-fight or the bat of an eye and a blown kiss? You wouldn't have even gotten your hundred from me. Maybe 40 tops to the fight and less than a handful to the flirting. "Careful, boys. Last time I went for that sort of bait, I had to apply a salve to my private parts for months!" I could have stopped you from getting at the treasury with the guards alone, one of whom is bucking for a promotion and knows he has to impress his own CO first and foremost. "Sorry, sir. Orders form on high. Nobody gets in without a writ direct from the king." Now you have to forge something or score really really high at bluffing. Had you still managed to get past them, I wouldn't have thrown a level 29 spell at you. I'd have had you deal with some golems or other nefarious constructs. My goal as DM would not be to kill you but to capture you and have you stand trial so you could have a proper chance to escape with your hides barely intact. Fun and story first! Of course, if you did manage to get in and escape the golems, I'd say you deserved whatever gold you could swiftly pocket. Now for you to escape the alarm...
#17 kaius_markades May 23, 2009 22:48:13	I can't see that 3 girls flirting with the guards would draw away 500, but maybe if they were flirting with eachother... Joking aside, I think that both sides of this conflict did things wrong, whether or not they had the right idea in the first place. The Players wanted something vastly beyond their level - but maybe obtainable to improve their situation. The DM wanted to make it hard, if not impossible, but went about that the wrong way.
#18 myrwen_dup May 24, 2009 4:25:01	The thing is, HE said it drew 500 players, not me. I was hoping for at best 100, tops. I just wanted an opening. PS~the whole, 1 mill idea, WHO said that? I wanted some quick gold, which he didn't provide or chage prices to acomidate it. Thanks for confirming ms first impression that it was a power contest between a player and a DM His improvisation was not the best, but as I said, I can understand he choose such a way to get out of what looks like an insisting attempt of player side intimidation. Sorry to be rude and an old-schooler DM thinking that I'm not here to acomidate every player's whim
#19 koradzi May 24, 2009 12:10:36	Bad form on the part of the DM, I'd say. If he didn't want you to have the money, there were a lot of things that he could've done to make it inaccessible. The guards probably shouldn't have been as easy to distract, the disguises probably shouldn't have worked without a hitch, the vault probably should've been locked, and probably shouldn't have contained 100,000 gold if it was meant to be the treasury of a small town. Making a task that's supposed to be impossible too easy and then compensating by having a giant foot descend from the heavens and squish the offending player is... tacky. His actions didn't send the message that you were doing something that had no chance of working; giving the players a shot and then blasting them at the last minute feels like leading them on, only to yank the rug out from under them. Another question... am I reading this right, in that the players were planning to give the money away to the local soldiers? Or were you taking it because the town couldn't afford to pay you? Not that it should really matter, but curb-stomping the players for trying to do something more-or-less noble is kind of a low blow. In any case... I hate to say it, but you really don't have any recourse here other than to find a new gaming group if you're really upset. Your DM was wrong (imo), but you're not going to get any favors out of him by telling him so. Even if you could convince him that he messed up, it's unlikely that he'd be willing to retcon your character; in the best case scenario, you might be able to talk him into letting the rest of the group spend whatever money they made from the heist on whatever heroic measures might be necessary to de-annihilate your character.
#20 euthyphro May 24, 2009 13:18:07	Situation seems pretty obvious to me. He warned you it'd be difficult. He put outrageous amounts of guards out there and set up the situation as near impossible. You persisted in attempting to do it he decided to be kind of a jerk about it and attempt to kill your character. You were warned. Your first clue it was a terrible idea should have been when he said "its going to be pretty hard." Your second clue should have been when he said there were 1000 guards. (at that point the silliness of 1k guards should have really alerted you.) Your third clue should have been when a "distraction" removed 500 and another silly "distraction" removed the other 500. There is a laundry list of clues that were dropped that what you were doing was a bad idea. Not saying his actions were ok, he could have gone about it a different way, but, in some sense, it seems rather ridiculous to come to the forums and complain that you went somewhere your DM told you was too high for you and then sprung a trap which completely wrecked you. Really, the only part that is stupid on his part is all the stuff leading up to it. If you had walked into a dragon's lair to get his gold and died, no one would blame the DM at all. So, in that sense, you sort of got what you deserved.
#21 nowiwantmydmg May 25, 2009 14:42:08	The players are bad for trying to force such a cheesy plan on the DM, especially when it becomes apparant it annoys the DM (1000 guards, diamond plates). The DM is obviously not good at improvisation and should probably have made things much more difficult from the start of this attempt (the PCs shouldn't have even got near the vault), the sphere shouldn't have been necessary. This does sound like a case of player entitlement to me, but if there is a history of DM/player conflict in this group than maybe that's the issue instead.
#22 wizarddog May 25, 2009 17:09:16	The DM's reaction was just cheesy and not well done. The boards seem to agree he did not ad lib this well. But you as a player created the situation by thinking robbing the treasury would be a palpable solution. If I tried something like this (which I would not be tempted) it would be to serve only one purpose: to derail the story. Was that your intention?
#23 grey_mu_gamma May 25, 2009 17:38:08	Origional IDEA: DM has DMPC who he loads up with magical items, and has at least 1 better of everything, practicaly, then all players. He says that it is because he owns teh books which he studies. (Non-stop, may I add). And so I wanted some loot to even it up. Either way, I understand now how this was outragously stupid. Thanks!
#24 illraven May 26, 2009 11:47:06	Origional IDEA: DM has DMPC who he loads up with magical items, and has at least 1 better of everything, practicaly, then all players. He says that it is because he owns teh books which he studies. (Non-stop, may I add). And so I wanted some loot to even it up. Either way, I understand now how this was outragously stupid. Thanks! Interesting. Not that I'm saying this is a smart course - but why not knock over the DMPC instead of the friggin' VAULT? Seems to me there would be far less risk, far more chance of success, and would send the same 'message' to the DM about how you don't like the way he runs the game. Personally, I think you should discuss the campaign with the other players and maybe speak to the DM as a group if all of the players feel the same way you do.
#25 Dralenan May 27, 2009 7:59:30	Origional IDEA: DM has DMPC who he loads up with magical items, and has at least 1 better of everything, practicaly, then all players. He says that it is because he owns teh books which he studies. (Non-stop, may I add). And so I wanted some loot to even it up. Either way, I understand now how this was outragously stupid. Thanks! I like your DM a little less the more I hear, but not too much so. A DMPC should never trump the party. And they should also have the same rules and limitations as the party. If the DMPC has more gear and loot than the party, that is the DM's fault (I think I already mentioned his lack of providing adequate treasure was a problem). The DM shouldn't be trying to one-up the party in anything. Of course, the DM was still right to making an attempt to keep you out of a high level area, then using high level means when you got there (although the whole scenario was poorly done, if I may say so). He literally picked the highest level trap in the book, didn't really read how it worked, and slapped it in...simply because it was the highest level trap.