Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 intplus5 Aug 02, 2009 16:51:14	What to do? I'm becoming suspicious of how my DM is handling rolls for various actions during combat. My group ha now played a number of sessions and leveled our characters to level 4. Over this time I have come to feel like my actions, the numbers on the character sheet and our die rolls are completely meaningless and we are simply stumbling through the DM's narrative. Our most recent session provided the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. My character has a natural +9 to initiative, +11 with the party warlord around. (+4 improved initiative, +2 for half level, +3 Dex) We encountered a large group of Gnolls, including several Gnoll Claw Fighters, a couple Huntmasters, and a Marauder. I rolled a natural 20 for initiative giving me a 31, however both the claw fighters and the marauder were declared to have "rolled" 32's which would require "rolling" a 25 and 27 respectively on a D20 (I felt this result was suspicious enough that I finally looked up the creature stats.) Our DM keeps everything hidden behind the DM's screen. The DM also insists on having copies of each player's character sheet (which I am fine with) but I become suspicious when 50% - 60% of enemy attacks do not just hit the players, but hit the appropriate defensive score on the nose, meaning that 50% - 60% of the dm's rolls plus the appropriate creature's attack bonus just happens to come out to exactly it's target's AC/reflex/whatever. This just seems unlikely to happen over the course of an encounter, let alone several. I am starting to feel like there is no point to "playing" the game as things are going because I am under the impression that for example, no matter what the party rolled for initiative that the Gnolls would have acted in the dame place in the initiative order (in which case why should I spend a feat for the +4 to my roll.) and that the bad guys are going to hit my AC on the nose whether I am wearing Plate armor or none at all. The DM insists that he is doing everything "by the book" and has stated that he believes the DM needs to make rolls behind the screen to avoid "giving away too much" in terms of DC's for certain rolls etc. In the group, the DM and I are the only one's with any RPG experience, so the rest of the party doesn't seem to find anything wrong with how he is handling it (they have never known anything different.) Any suggestions how to handle this? Overall I enjoy hanging out, everyone in the group have been friend's for awhile, but I feel like we might as well just be watching a movie if our actions and character's don't matter because the DM is really just hosting story time. If something doesn't change soon I will probably quit the game (which given the personallities involved will probably kill the game entirely.) but I would much rather find a way to work things out. I have also asked the DM if he would mind letting me take over for awhile and he could take a turn playing, but he insists that he wants to "get through the story he's written first"
#2 LordManshoon Aug 02, 2009 16:58:36	As someone who has been on both sides of the DM screen, it sounds to me like your DM just enjoys going for the jugular. He might very well be playing honestly, but I suspect he's stacking the deck in his own favor by keeping everything to himself. The DM Screen is a more disheartening barricade than the Berlin Wall at times. Try speaking to him about your concerns. Show him your side of things, and see how he reacts. If he becomes angry or sour, or criticizes you for how you feel, you'll probably be better off with a different DM. Hopefully, he'll cool his jets and agree to compromise.
#3 darquing Aug 02, 2009 17:11:26	Some things I can understand behind rolled behind the screen: (monster) stealth vs (PC) perception, bluff vs insight, things like that. If you're serious about talking to the DM, talk to the other players and get them to back you up (though given the fact that they don't necessarily see anything wrong is going to make it difficult). Once you've done that, explain to the DM that it feels like you all are just characters in a story and that the character's stats don't matter. Its also possible that the DM feels that if he played the monsters as written, they wouldn't be challenging for you.
#4 humanmind Aug 02, 2009 17:15:16	I agree that the best method is to talk to your DM. I don't use DM screens, myself. I've had players try and cheat on me before so I prove that I don't cheat by rolling everything in front of them (except for bluff, stealth ect.) If you voice your concerns to him and say that you feel like leaving if something doesn't change, I'm sure he will see it as well. Ask him to roll combat rolls in front of the DM screen. Best of luck
#5 darquing Aug 02, 2009 17:21:52	Sorry, double post. :/
#6 humanmind Aug 02, 2009 17:29:40	Some things I can understand behind rolled behind the screen: (monster) stealth vs (PC) perception, bluff vs insight, things like that. If you're serious about talking to the DM, talk to the other players and get them to back you up (though given the fact that they don't necessarily see anything wrong is going to make it difficult). Once you've done that, explain to the DM that it feels like you all are just characters in a story and that the character's stats don't matter. Its also possible that the DM feels that if he played the monsters as written, they wouldn't be challenging for you. We heard you the first time.
#7 gregt_314 Aug 02, 2009 20:38:08	I understand it's not how your post is intended, but I had to laugh at a thread complaining that the DM is making stuff up. Watch out for its twin - "Oh Noes! My players keeping winning fights and solving challenges! What should I do?"
#8 erk_ Aug 02, 2009 20:48:22	I laughed with Greg. I'd just tell the GM you're getting a bit uncomfortable with the rolls, and ask him if he'd please play without the shield for a while, except for particularly secret things such as perception/stealth checks, just to satisfy your concerns. Being up front is usually the safest route.
#9 intplus5 Aug 02, 2009 21:40:50	LOL, I guess when you put it that way it is kind of funny. I understand that it is the DM's prerogative to edit monster stats and setup encounters how they see fit (making stuff up as they need to) my issue comes with the fact that he seems to be making things up and altering stats and such mid encounter when he doesn't like die rolls. To some degree this is fine, but at some point the Game part of Role Playing Game needs to come into play - and the dynamic status of the monster's stats doesn't always go against us. Another example - in 3 1/2 levels of play not a single member of our 5 member party has been reduced to zero hitppoints and knocked out. The bad guys always go out of their way to spread the damage around evenly proportional to the number of hitpoints each character has... anytime one or two players gets very close to zero monsters start dying mysteriously when everyone would assume they still had plenty of hitpoints - sometimes its like monsters that aren't even bloodied suddenly become minions - its not even like they decide to retreat, they just start dropping dead. This happens even if the party has plenty of healing capacity left, all our dailies still available, etc... Its like there is no threat of death and no randomness to the outcome of any attacks. Combat encounters feel choreographed and non-combat frequently feel like monologue setups for the next coming combat. Ultimately while our DM is admittedly a talented "storyteller" (probably the only reason things have lasted this long) the GAME is starting to become boring. I'm just unsure of how to approach this with him as he seems very invested in his story and having it play out the way he pictures it in his mind.
#10 LordManshoon Aug 02, 2009 21:50:38	Another example - in 3 1/2 levels of play not a single member of our 5 member party has been reduced to zero hitppoints and knocked out. The bad guys always go out of their way to spread the damage around evenly proportional to the number of hitpoints each character has... anytime one or two players gets very close to zero monsters start dying mysteriously when everyone would assume they still had plenty of hitpoints - sometimes its like monsters that aren't even bloodied suddenly become minions - its not even like they decide to retreat, they just start dropping dead. This is, no offense, poor DMing. While many enemies will favor the "scatter the suffering" approach to combat, most are going to pick off characters one by one. So yeah, your DM is up to something weird. Its like there is no threat of death and no randomness to the outcome of any attacks. Combat encounters feel choreographed and non-combat frequently feel like monologue setups for the next coming combat. Ultimately while our DM is admittedly a talented "storyteller" (probably the only reason things have lasted this long) the GAME is starting to become boring. I'm just unsure of how to approach this with him as he seems very invested in his story and having it play out the way he pictures it in his mind. Make this clear to him, but preferably after you discuss this with your fellow players. See what their opinions are. Be polite and diplomatic (not that I really have to say this). If he becomes angry, remain polite; maybe back off a bit if he starts to bug out.
#11 Psikerlord Aug 02, 2009 21:59:35	I suggest asking your DM to roll all dice in the open (barring secret stealth type dice), and letting the chips fall where they may. Tell him it's no fun playing a game if you know you're gonna win no matter what happens. There are better ways the DM can "help" players out if things go horribly wrong. Or at least have your next DM (or you) roll in the open, and see if the players like it better. I guarantee they will.
#12 mkill Aug 02, 2009 22:50:23	Your DM doesn't know how to bluff. Call his "cheating" out openly until he learns how to hide it better.
#13 tequila_sunrise Aug 03, 2009 0:00:45	Your DM doesn't know how to bluff. Call his "cheating" out openly until he learns how to hide it better. I sympathize with IntPlus5, and I concur with this suggestion. I just started playing under a new guy, and I have a similar problem: he doesn't repeatedly hit our defenses on just the right number but he fudges in our favor and it's obvious. He's come right out and told us that he believes that PCs should never die. I'm all for good story and narration, but if I don't believe in the possibility of my character dying I lose interest in battles pretty quickly. So try using joking comments like "Gee, that's the third time this encounter that my AC's been hit right on the dot. These monsters must have some kind of luck-warping power from the DM power source." or "Wow this villain is exceptionally stupid. Even cliched megalomaniacs should know to take us down one by one." Hopefully he'll catch on and either stop fudging, or starting hiding it better.
#14 LordManshoon Aug 03, 2009 0:06:00	You know, if you really wanted to see if he was cushioning his blows, have your character take off his armor and wade out into the melee in the buff. DM: Six orcs enter the room, armed with spears and glai--- You: I take off my armor. DM: Beg pardon? You: I strip down and enter the fray. DM: But, you'll get hurt. You: Exactly. DM: The orcs...um... suddenly drop on the ground. It appears they...umm... suffered cardiac arrest! Yes, I found a way! :P
#15 slobo777a Aug 03, 2009 7:44:20	Sounds like you DM is on the story-telling wing of style. There does come a point in this approach where, as a player, you start to wonder why you're rolling the dice. Where that point is, is quite a personal thing, and also might vary depending on game system (in WoD or Shadowrun, this style is encouraged, and is almost necessary, given how weak the mechanics are). You might prefer your game unsullied by an over-managed story, or perhaps prefer your story to run without the chance of a random death (three hours prep work on character backstory, killed by orc 3, 5 rounds into encounter 2). I personally believe that many of us (players and DM) are trying to aim for a middle ground gamestory or storygame, where both happen as well as they can at the same time. I'm hoping to post a couple of threads here soon about just that: How to ensure you get maximum game in a storyteller style, how to ensure you get maximum story in a "let the dice dictate" style. I don't know the answers myself; I'm trusting that the forums will help by extracting cool ideas from all the DMs here :-)