The issue here is that the person who stepped in is basically a Veteran of the game, and is well-known among our group to power-game and optimize his characters like you wouldn't believe. The DM was apprehensive about him making my character at first, and after he got a few details about how the character will work out (at our current level, 11th, one encounter power can down an Elite), became very upset. Now, I'm good friends with both the DM and the power-gaming player, and the DM does not like the fact that my character is being set up this way.
I'm caught in the awkward middle; I want to come back in, but the DM knows that most of his encounters and plans will be messed up by the damage my proposed character will deal--not to mention the fact that I might end up stealing the show from the others during combat. On the other hand, the guy making the character really wants to see it in action and, judging by the work he's put into it, won't take "No" very well.
It may be better to try and please the DM by just sticking with my own, "non-optimized" character, but it'd piss off my friend--so no matter which way I go, somebody is gonna get mad at me. What's worse is that it's not just my standing that's threatened: whichever way I go, either the DM or the power-gamer will start building up dislike for the other. I'm treading on thin ice and I'm not sure which way to go--so far, the only answer I can come up with is to take the character anyway and purposely not play it very well.
Any body else have a better idea?
Honestly, I would think the friend that wants to help you build your character would understand if you explained the DM's concerns over the character making encounter trivial and overshadowing everyone else.
I'm not sure how much roleplaying goes on in the group, perhaps you can amend the situation by interesting roleplaying.
Like having the character be borderline pacifist that only uses violence when absolutely all hope of peaceful resolution is gone...He just happends to be extremly good at violence.
I'm guesstimating however that the player that built the PC would be upset to see it played "wrong" and possibly very dissapointed if he finds out you and the DM made some obfuscated deal to nerf the character.
Maybe you could persuade him to let you make your own character and have him save the awesome one he made for later and play it himself, he sounds invested in it enough for it to work.
But it's difficult to forsee the results when I don't know the people personally.
I'd probably say that straight up and open truth with both sides will be best in the long run.
If they will start disliking eachother over this small a matter, then I forsee a doomed group in the making anyway.
Other options include making a character all on your own, explain to both the DM and the power-gamer that you don't want to upset anyone and best way to do that seems to be to make the character on your own.
Sit down with the DM and build a character. This might upset the power-gamer pretty badly however.
Sit down with both the DM and the power-gamer, explain what kind of character you want and let both of them help you build it. The DM can then get to say what he will and won't allow. (Atleast in 3.5 which I play some stuff gets pretty insane when combined and while awesome, is game-breaking if combined, sounds like your DM wants to avoid that.) And the power-gamer will still get to work out the best character he can within those boundraries.
Just explain to the friend that wants to help you build the character that you don't want to aggravate the DM. Take his help getting it built, but when it's done change around some of the powers and maybe feats. Char Op isn't only viable for making the strongest possible character. You can then use the color codes to pick some new feats and powers that will let your character remain effective without being a game breaker. Let the DM know that you'll be getting help, but you will be taking steps to make it so that the character won't overshadow everyone else. This way you won't have to worry about offending anyone, so long as your two friends are reasonable.
Honestly, I would think the friend that wants to help you build your character would understand if you explained the DM's concerns over the character making encounter trivial and overshadowing everyone else.
Oh, believe me, he already knows how the DM feels about CharOp. My friend has been looking for new ways to exploit his own class since day one, this is just the first time he's tried to exploit somebody else's.
I'll definitely use some of your suggestions though."
Part of what powergamers like is the making of the character, and theorizing on what it would do if they or some optimal player were to control it. Lots of people make characters just for the sake of it, with no expectation to play.
I'm not saying your friend definitely won't be disappointed but that's a fairly minor thing, especially for most powergamers, and the character can potentially be recycled some other time.
Otherwise, showing some acknowledgment of his rules-fu is all that he really wants from others.
EDIT: Actually, I would dislike having an "uber" PC, preferring "Great at what he does" but not being "Godlike at what he does," and make character choices not based wholly on effectiveness. I think most players make certain choices for their own preference even if they recognize other options might be mechanically "better" in general.
Your playstyle also has a large impact on the kind of character you want, ie. extremely complicated, just one big hitter, lots of status effects etc.
My playmates are totally within their rights to make suggestions about how to make a character concept I want to play more synergetic with the group conceptually or mechanically, or to recommend feats and equipment and whatnot to optimize it, but I also don't expect to be pressured into taking the suggestions. For instance, one of the players I'm playing with right now asked for help building her rogue, and very firmly resolved to play a race that I know is less suited to the class and build, but that she'll enjoy playing more. It's not her job to please me with her character choices; it's my job to respect them.
Don't even mention the DM as it'll just cause bad blood between the PGer and the DM since he'll just blame the DM for trying to force your decision...despite the fact he's trying to do the exact same. Unless you agree to a pregen campaign, no person should ever decide your character unless you specifically ask them to.
Also, think of the group. Remember that you are in fact part of a group and what you do affects their enjoyment of the game. I personally play under the belief that while I am free to create the character that I want I am also under an obligation to try and ensure that my enjoyment of the game does not detract from the enjoyment of anyone else in the group and/or the group as a whole (including the DM!). If you honestly think that another power character will negatively impact the enjoyment of the DM and if that bothers you then do not create such a character.
You were new to the game and didn't know much about the system. The powergamer offered to help you build a PC
The first question is do you want him to help you or not.
From my reading is you accepted it.
Next your DM has a problem with "power gamers" in general. He got mad when the power gamer helped you with your PC. The DM may have to consider that even if he stops the power game from helping you with your PC you could just come to these boards and go to the OPT boards to make your own "OPT build" so stopping the power gamer won't solve the problem.
I don't see how these power gamers mess up his encounters. If the players are plowing through the encounters he can make them tougher just by adding a few more monsters.
I am going by what is written, but it seems like the DM has a problem with power gamers in general.
Power gamer players in a campaign run by a DM that does not like power gaming can lead to frustration and stress. Even if you can challenge the power gamers by upping the power level of the monsters, the issues that can arise include the other players who are not optimized having to fight very challenging creatures that they have no business fighting as well as the stress that the non optimizing DM has to go through in adjusting their world to accomodate Sir Hackmaster +5.
It may seem like a pittance to some, and some may not even understand what the fuss is about, but coming from a DM who doesn't like power gaming either, it invokes negative emotions, which makes the game less fun. (yes I finally got to use that phrase too!)
Power gamers are better served in tactical games run by a DM who likes that style of play, and are served best in a party of other optimizers in my experience and opinion.
Now that rant being over:
Many posters have already said what I am going to say.
"Thanks man. I appreciate the thought but I would rather create my own character concept and idea."
That's really all that needs said. If that causes someone to get whiney and complain, then that person needs a maturity check.
I know I personally would never play a character someone else created.
Second, you are thinking in terms of the impact of the whole game. Knowing your DM does not like power gaming, it would definitely cause stress and negativity to show up with Sir Hackmaster +5's brother in striking crime.
Again that comes from the angle where power gamers are going to be better received at a table where the DM likes power gaming and in a group with other power gamers.
As such, I wanted to say thank you for having consideration to the game as a whole.
Let the player know the DM isn't a big fan of your super optimized character. Then let the DM know that the player put alot of work into the character. Then let the two of them figure out amongst themselves what to do about it.
I don't see how these power gamers mess up his encounters.
There are several ways. One is that the encounters can become unbalanced. Let us say you have a group of 5 and one of them is a power gamer who completely outstrips all the others in combat. So when the DM runs encounters he has to either throw in extra monsters or throw in one that is more powerful than all the others. Then, all those extra monsters or that one really powerful monster are pretty much fated to attack the power gamer because if not then their is a really good chance that someone else in the group is going to get seriously mauled. That can really start to wear on anyone inovled in the game, be it the DM, the power gamer, or anyone else.
Then there is the enjoyment factor. Even the most mature player can start to feel a jaded when another character is always killing two (or more) monsters for their one. It can also make the other players feel like they are just support to that one character.
Whenever I find myself caught in the middle like that, my typical response is "How about you two figure this out on your own, and let me know when you've got your **** sorted."
Let the player know the DM isn't a big fan of your super optimized character. Then let the DM know that the player put alot of work into the character. Then let the two of them figure out amongst themselves what to do about it.
And then hopefully see Understanding dawn in their eyes when after reaching their conclusion you inform them that NIETHER of them gets to decide FOR YOU what you're going to do and present the DM with a new character of your own creation - which, to be honest, is what the OP should have done in the first place.
If my friend wants to see the character of which he is so proud and into which he has invested so much effort put into action he can bloody well play it himself, NOT use me as a proxy to annoy the DM.
Truthfully all that's needed is for the three people involved in this little triangle to sit down together and open up some freakin' lines of communication. The internet is where you go for advice after COMMUNICATION has failed, not before it's actually been tried among the parties concerned. I'm just sayin'...
A) Make your own character.
B) Make your own character within the paramiters that your DM sets forth....
Your PG friend? He's suppossed to already accept this basic tennent, so he should have no reason to get pissy when you follow it over his advice which'll only irritate the DM....
Or you could try & please them both.
Run the fully optimized character. But have a deal worked out with the DM where he'll get to kill the thing in a bloody & final fashion. Just neglect to bring this fact up to the rest of the group....
Then fallback to the "obvious answers" above.
The DM is the guy running the game, not another player. If the DM likes the PC then he won't be in a position to complain logically.
I usually describe what I have in mind and then say 'make it for me' and go with that.
Soooo glad I don't play in games that need dice rolled PC creation for the most part. Point purchase for the win
I find dice generated PC are never even half as fun.
I don't see how these power gamers mess up his encounters.
There are several ways. One is that the encounters can become unbalanced. Let us say you have a group of 5 and one of them is a power gamer who completely outstrips all the others in combat. So when the DM runs encounters he has to either throw in extra monsters or throw in one that is more powerful than all the others. Then, all those extra monsters or that one really powerful monster are pretty much fated to attack the power gamer because if not then their is a really good chance that someone else in the group is going to get seriously mauled. That can really start to wear on anyone inovled in the game, be it the DM, the power gamer, or anyone else.
Then there is the enjoyment factor. Even the most mature player can start to feel a jaded when another character is always killing two (or more) monsters for their one. It can also make the other players feel like they are just support to that one character.
I'll second the enjoyment factor. I like feeling like I'm a valued member of the team, rather than playing the X-Men to the powergamer munchkin's Wolverine.
Myself, if I can't master the PC creation process of a game, I let the DM do it, never a player.
The DM is the guy running the game, not another player. If the DM likes the PC then he won't be in a position to complain logically.
I usually describe what I have in mind and then say 'make it for me' and go with that.
Soooo glad I don't play in games that need dice rolled PC creation for the most part. Point purchase for the win
So you want to play these games, & want to play them effectively, but you don't want to do any of the actual work.
I'd be such a mean DM to you. You'd get a bare bones character with rolled up stats. When you questioned any "shortage" of pts? I'd tell you that I had indeed used PB & that the missing portion was the tax you'd payed me to create the character. But if I rolled well & you ended up with something over the PB total the others had used? If quizzed I'd shrug & reply that I'm the DM, I can create things using whatever totals I please.
It'd be a pretty obvious lie as I don't think I could refrain from laughing. It'd also likely cause the other players to want me to create their characters as well. Oh well, I can roll up more stats....
Of course, you're on your own when it's time to LV up....
And if you actually complained? You'd get told to go figure out character creation or just not play. Your choice.
Better yet, find the middle ground.
"I really don't like that power/feat/item. What other options are valid at this level?" Many power gamey elements are part of a combination. While awesome together, take one or two elements out and they are simply strong (frost cheese without a multi-attack).
or
"I liked this one option more than the one you SUGGESTED." Remember, its your character, and he's helping you. Make some adjustments to keep you character tame while still using some suggested elements.
End result is an strong character, but not a CharOped one.
Issue 2) If you are stealing more than your fair share of the 'spotlight' during the game then identify what the other characters consider their 'spotlight' and adjust your circumstances so you can aid them instead.
Issue 3) As long as Issue 1 and Issue 2 are given priority then do not hesitate to make whatever character you feel most comfortable with. If you feel most comfortable with an optimized character then your DM should cease his whining and learn to balance his encounters appropriately. If the other players feel envious of your capabilities then it is they who should learn to better manage their emotions.
"I use forceful drag to slide him six spaces around the storm pillar and end my grab to knock him prone. Roll Damage, Will."
"That's... Let's see.. 6d6 + 30... 55 damage. On a move action."
"Ok, I'll try to finish him off with handspring assault. I dash out of stealth and leap into the air diving on him for 3d8 + 2d8 for sneak attack + 1d8 from my vanguard weapon + 1d8 for suprising charge + 1d6 for horned helmet + 6. Whoa. I critted."
Then we had a player join who frankly is the exact opposite of us. He made an Assassin that used a Hand Crossbow and a shortsword. Our rogue would be doing basic charging out of stealth for +14 5d8 + 1d6 + 6 at level 4(weirdest dragonborn rogue I've ever seen, but it gets the job done.) while he was happily shooting for 2d6 + 6 accounting for 1 shroud per attack.
He ended up getting isolated from the group and fought a small group of minions and almost died. In the end he was proud that he managed to fight them off by himself, which realistically was an achievement.