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DM ideas on a magic application

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Imperious3
Sep 17, 2012 1:22:07 I was just wondering, what would happen if you used an invisibility spell of some sort on something that was giving off light, maybe a campfire? Maybe my logic is screwed up, but could it prevent it giving off light while still giving off heat. Then the wizard could end the spell, causing sudden light.

Edit: After looking at my only book (PH), I saw that Invisibility is only cast-able on creatures. Is it different in other books?
#2
Centauri
Sep 17, 2012 12:05:34
I was just wondering, what would happen if you used an invisibility spell of some sort on something that was giving off light, maybe a campfire? Maybe my logic is screwed up, but could it prevent it giving off light while still giving off heat. Then the wizard could end the spell, causing sudden light.

Edit: After looking at my only book (PH), I saw that Invisibility is only cast-able on creatures. Is it different in other books?

There's no correct answer to this, only how your DM decides to rule on it.

"Heat" involves electromagnetic radiation, just like visible light, so if the light is hidden why wouldn't the heat be too? But even contacting physical objects involves electromagnetism, and presumably the invisible creature can still touch things.

Invisibility is generally handled as illusion in D&D. In that case, it could be that the invisible objects are actually visible and interacting with the universe, but that those under the spell treat them as undetectable. Again, you're back to what the DM decides the invisibility covers.
#3
Noctaem
Sep 17, 2012 13:03:54 the rules for invisibility in 4th edition are pretty simple. Much simpler than in 3.X So we would need to know which one you are playing. If it is 4th edition I would recommend reading the following document since it explains in very good detail how it works.

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758....

Basically the premise in 4E is that invisibility gives the creature total concealment. That's it. IF you put invisibility on a campfire (since as you noted most invisibility powers specify creatures, however the wizard cantrip prestigiditation would allow for it), that would remove all light from the campfire since it now has total concealment. Creatures would still know there's a campfire there however since the premise is that everyone knows where it is.

If you're playing 3.X you'll have to ask your DM, or specify that's the edition you're asking about to draw in people who are better experts of that edition than I. I don't recall the rules for invisibility exactly but they are more complicated.
#4
Neutronium_Dragon
Sep 17, 2012 17:38:56 The *probable* outcome in 3E would be that you'd have a campfire giving off light and heat without itself being visible - that is, the area would be brightly (unless it's a very small campfire!) lit out to a certain radius, then dimly lit out to a certain radius beyond that , and it would be apparent that the light is emanating from "that spot over there".

Most creatures would still know that there was a campfire because being invisible wouldn't render it inaudible (or for that matter, scentless).

This is also a reasonable ruling if you want to pull it off in 4E; the wizard power normally targets creatures, but this is one case where you could plausibly allow it to work on an unattended object.

(You'd have to go back to 2E to find a version of invisibility that works as an actual mind-control effect, and even that was a variant one ("Mind-Control Invisibility"). The default version in every edition has always been an illusion.)
#5
Noctaem
Sep 17, 2012 18:01:12
The *probable* outcome in 3E would be that you'd have a campfire giving off light and heat without itself being visible - that is, the area would be brightly (unless it's a very small campfire!) lit out to a certain radius, then dimly lit out to a certain radius beyond that , and it would be apparent that the light is emanating from "that spot over there".

Most creatures would still know that there was a campfire because being invisible wouldn't render it inaudible (or for that matter, scentless).

This is also a reasonable ruling if you want to pull it off in 4E; the wizard power normally targets creatures, but this is one case where you could plausibly allow it to work on an unattended object.

(You'd have to go back to 2E to find a version of invisibility that works as an actual mind-control effect, and even that was a variant one ("Mind-Control Invisibility"). The default version in every edition has always been an illusion.)

which wizard power are you referring to ? And why would you make a houserule when it is clearly identified in the rules ?
#6
Centauri
Sep 17, 2012 18:32:53
which wizard power are you referring to ?

Invisibility?

And why would you make a houserule when it is clearly identified in the rules ?

Because it might be cool to do so.

#7
Neutronium_Dragon
Sep 17, 2012 18:33:42 The level 6 wizard one.

Powers that normally target creatures *can* be used on objects if there's a consensus that doing so is a reasonable application in a given case. This isn't specific to invisibility, nor is it strictly a house rule.
#8
Noctaem
Sep 17, 2012 19:19:51
The level 6 wizard one.

Powers that normally target creatures *can* be used on objects if there's a consensus that doing so is a reasonable application in a given case. This isn't specific to invisibility, nor is it strictly a house rule.

Ah ok, just to keep in mind though, that the wizard cantrip Prestidigitation can be used to make an object invisible. That's why I didn't catch that you were talking about a specific other power called invisibility.
#9
Neutronium_Dragon
Sep 17, 2012 20:32:45 Prestidigitation would be an option with something like a candle or small hand-lamp, but a typical campfire is going to be too large for it. (That, and you'd need some fire resistance for the 'handheld' part...)

#10
Noctaem
Sep 17, 2012 21:00:13 hmm right, forgot about the small handheld part. Too bad.
#11
Imperious3
Sep 17, 2012 22:03:54 I had forgotten about the cantrip, but you all have a good points. I was thinking that it could be used for an ambush or something against a creature accustomed to the dark. Just a thought. I'm using the 4E Player's Handbook, but I am utterly new to D&D and have never played a single game. Thanks for the insight!
#12
Centauri
Sep 18, 2012 10:55:13
I had forgotten about the cantrip, but you all have a good points. I was thinking that it could be used for an ambush or something against a creature accustomed to the dark. Just a thought. I'm using the 4E Player's Handbook, but I am utterly new to D&D and have never played a single game. Thanks for the insight!

One could make a fire invisible, one way or another, but there are probably lots of ways simply to make sudden light.

#13
Imperious3
Sep 18, 2012 16:23:32 I was looking at the 1001 tips thread, and someone came up with the idea to cast Continual Flame on some small rocks and cover them in something like clay so that they would break when stepped on.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Imperious3 Sep 17, 2012 1:22:07	I was just wondering, what would happen if you used an invisibility spell of some sort on something that was giving off light, maybe a campfire? Maybe my logic is screwed up, but could it prevent it giving off light while still giving off heat. Then the wizard could end the spell, causing sudden light. Edit: After looking at my only book (PH), I saw that Invisibility is only cast-able on creatures. Is it different in other books?
#2 Centauri Sep 17, 2012 12:05:34	I was just wondering, what would happen if you used an invisibility spell of some sort on something that was giving off light, maybe a campfire? Maybe my logic is screwed up, but could it prevent it giving off light while still giving off heat. Then the wizard could end the spell, causing sudden light. Edit: After looking at my only book (PH), I saw that Invisibility is only cast-able on creatures. Is it different in other books? There's no correct answer to this, only how your DM decides to rule on it. "Heat" involves electromagnetic radiation, just like visible light, so if the light is hidden why wouldn't the heat be too? But even contacting physical objects involves electromagnetism, and presumably the invisible creature can still touch things. Invisibility is generally handled as illusion in D&D. In that case, it could be that the invisible objects are actually visible and interacting with the universe, but that those under the spell treat them as undetectable. Again, you're back to what the DM decides the invisibility covers.
#3 Noctaem Sep 17, 2012 13:03:54	the rules for invisibility in 4th edition are pretty simple. Much simpler than in 3.X So we would need to know which one you are playing. If it is 4th edition I would recommend reading the following document since it explains in very good detail how it works. community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758.... Basically the premise in 4E is that invisibility gives the creature total concealment. That's it. IF you put invisibility on a campfire (since as you noted most invisibility powers specify creatures, however the wizard cantrip prestigiditation would allow for it), that would remove all light from the campfire since it now has total concealment. Creatures would still know there's a campfire there however since the premise is that everyone knows where it is. If you're playing 3.X you'll have to ask your DM, or specify that's the edition you're asking about to draw in people who are better experts of that edition than I. I don't recall the rules for invisibility exactly but they are more complicated.
#4 Neutronium_Dragon Sep 17, 2012 17:38:56	The probable outcome in 3E would be that you'd have a campfire giving off light and heat without itself being visible - that is, the area would be brightly (unless it's a very small campfire!) lit out to a certain radius, then dimly lit out to a certain radius beyond that , and it would be apparent that the light is emanating from "that spot over there". Most creatures would still know that there was a campfire because being invisible wouldn't render it inaudible (or for that matter, scentless). This is also a reasonable ruling if you want to pull it off in 4E; the wizard power normally targets creatures, but this is one case where you could plausibly allow it to work on an unattended object. (You'd have to go back to 2E to find a version of invisibility that works as an actual mind-control effect, and even that was a variant one ("Mind-Control Invisibility"). The default version in every edition has always been an illusion.)
#5 Noctaem Sep 17, 2012 18:01:12	The probable outcome in 3E would be that you'd have a campfire giving off light and heat without itself being visible - that is, the area would be brightly (unless it's a very small campfire!) lit out to a certain radius, then dimly lit out to a certain radius beyond that , and it would be apparent that the light is emanating from "that spot over there". Most creatures would still know that there was a campfire because being invisible wouldn't render it inaudible (or for that matter, scentless). This is also a reasonable ruling if you want to pull it off in 4E; the wizard power normally targets creatures, but this is one case where you could plausibly allow it to work on an unattended object. (You'd have to go back to 2E to find a version of invisibility that works as an actual mind-control effect, and even that was a variant one ("Mind-Control Invisibility"). The default version in every edition has always been an illusion.) which wizard power are you referring to ? And why would you make a houserule when it is clearly identified in the rules ?
#6 Centauri Sep 17, 2012 18:32:53	which wizard power are you referring to ? Invisibility? And why would you make a houserule when it is clearly identified in the rules ? Because it might be cool to do so.
#7 Neutronium_Dragon Sep 17, 2012 18:33:42	The level 6 wizard one. Powers that normally target creatures can be used on objects if there's a consensus that doing so is a reasonable application in a given case. This isn't specific to invisibility, nor is it strictly a house rule.
#8 Noctaem Sep 17, 2012 19:19:51	The level 6 wizard one. Powers that normally target creatures can be used on objects if there's a consensus that doing so is a reasonable application in a given case. This isn't specific to invisibility, nor is it strictly a house rule. Ah ok, just to keep in mind though, that the wizard cantrip Prestidigitation can be used to make an object invisible. That's why I didn't catch that you were talking about a specific other power called invisibility.
#9 Neutronium_Dragon Sep 17, 2012 20:32:45	Prestidigitation would be an option with something like a candle or small hand-lamp, but a typical campfire is going to be too large for it. (That, and you'd need some fire resistance for the 'handheld' part...)
#10 Noctaem Sep 17, 2012 21:00:13	hmm right, forgot about the small handheld part. Too bad.
#11 Imperious3 Sep 17, 2012 22:03:54	I had forgotten about the cantrip, but you all have a good points. I was thinking that it could be used for an ambush or something against a creature accustomed to the dark. Just a thought. I'm using the 4E Player's Handbook, but I am utterly new to D&D and have never played a single game. Thanks for the insight!
#12 Centauri Sep 18, 2012 10:55:13	I had forgotten about the cantrip, but you all have a good points. I was thinking that it could be used for an ambush or something against a creature accustomed to the dark. Just a thought. I'm using the 4E Player's Handbook, but I am utterly new to D&D and have never played a single game. Thanks for the insight! One could make a fire invisible, one way or another, but there are probably lots of ways simply to make sudden light.
#13 Imperious3 Sep 18, 2012 16:23:32	I was looking at the 1001 tips thread, and someone came up with the idea to cast Continual Flame on some small rocks and cover them in something like clay so that they would break when stepped on.