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DM lacks flavor.

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
coactus
Mar 02, 2010 23:57:39 We have a DM who's been DMing campaigns for roughly 8 years. Back in the early days, his campaigns were full of flavor and we felt like we were denizens of an actual world.

He has DM'd roughly 4 Campaigns in this time. Generally there's roughly a year break between. I don't feel like he's run out of steam, he just seems to inadvertantly place no importance on flavor anymore.

For example, we just finished up an adventure, and (In a nautically-themed campaign), we sailed to our next destination. We had an encounter at sea, and after we finished the encounter, he began drawing a map for the next dungeon. Apparently, we had landed on the island we were sailing to, located the temple we were looking for, and entered it, all in the span of about 5 seconds in real life.

Now, this might seem trivial at a glace, but we find outselves having little emotional investment in our sorroundings, and rarely actually remembering why we were there, who we were looking for, what we were looking for, etc. Descriptions of rooms are generally "You see a room. There's a lever in it." We generally have to ASK specifics. Sometimes i will mess with him and say "What color is the paint?"

This fellow is not an overly expressive or obviously creative person. He struggles with naming things, and he tends to fall into trends, and his NPC's are all (As another PC puts it) HIM. I end up coming up with half the NPC's names, and name most of his monsters (He homebrews about half of the monsters we fight. This, however, is not an issue.) Finally, we rarely if ever find items or money. We generally find great, heaping piles of residuum.

He's generally receptive to criticism and advice, but how do you tell a DM that his campaign has zero flavor, and it's like after we finish one level, there's a 'load screen' and we begin the next level. It's like playing Diablo with 4e rules.

I really love my character, and want to continue.

His campaign simply feels like a very poorly paced movie. The action sequences are good, and the overall plot is solid, but there's little buildup or emotional investment.

HAs anyone shared a similar experience that can relate how they might have helped solve this?
#2
lofgren
Mar 03, 2010 1:43:54 That is an extremely tough one.

It sounds like he's burnt out on the story.

First of all, are you sure he isn't deliberately running a hack'n'slash campaign? Sometimes those are fun. He may not realize that you are looking for more.

Something that might work is co-DMing. If he is a very good encounter designer and puzzlemaker, somebody with more interest in the narrative aspects of the world could team up with him. Since this stuff is interesting enough to you to invent even as you are playing, offer to take a look at his notes before the game and come up with evocative descriptions of the scenery, creatures, and people. Maybe having a short description of his NPCs will inspire him to roleplay them more. (Hell, if I could find a co-DM who was a better encounter designer than me, I would love to do this.) I've never seen this done in practice so I'm not sure how well it would work, but there must be somebody out there who's tried it. And if not, you could always be the first.
#3
Khayal_the_Eternal
Mar 03, 2010 1:46:22 Just do what I do when I find that my DM lacks flavor. Apply BBQ Sauce.
#4
beowuuf
Mar 03, 2010 2:04:18 While it sounds like you liked the flavour, did anyone actually say they liked it, or ever react to it? Especially if it's not natural to him, putting in such touches and having them apparently have zero effect would be bad.

You might find he's decided you guys don't like that aspect because you never reacted to it, and so hasn't bothered. In this instance, trying to joke about it would backfire, because it would look like you are takign a swing at him even after he's stopped doing the thing he thought you lot didn't like in the first place.

#5
DwarfFighter
Mar 03, 2010 2:13:20
There's so super-drug you can inject him with to trigger his inspiration. :P

So you've been playing with this GM a lot over the years. Has he really changed, or is it you? Back when I was twelve, all I needed from the GM was this:

GM: "Ath the end of the corridor there's a CAVE! It's BIG! And it's got a DRAGON in it!"

Me: "Whoa!"

These days that would come across as a bit... bland.

-DF

#6
palomon
Mar 03, 2010 11:09:23 If he is as receptive as you say he is, it shouldn't be too hard for you to bring it up. If you want advice on how to bring it up, my best advice is to focus on what he used to do that you liked rather than focusing on what you don't like now. For example, instead of saying, "your adventures suck, you should spice it up," think of an adventure he ran in the past and tell him what you liked about it (that he described the scars that your enemy has, or he used all senses when describing a room, etc.) and tell him how much you liked it. You can bring then bring up that you miss that flavor, and that his adventures now would be so much better if he added it in. This way, he'll see that you're not insulting his adventures now, but that you'd just like a little more and that you know he can bring his adventures to life.

Otherwise, if you think it might help, go to a local RPGA event with the DM where you can both play PCs and not have him DMing. Observing another DM might spark the idea in his mind that he has been a little lax in his descriptions. Worldwide D&D Gameday is coming up soon, which would be a great opportunity for this!

I also agree with lofgren that a co-DM might help out. Also, maybe he needs a week or two off to just get some of the responsibility off his chest, let him renew his love for the game, and take some time to do some real, solid development for the campaign.
#7
dionnecurat
Mar 03, 2010 15:43:59 I guess it depends on the time in-between each session, or the DM himself.

Time-wise, it could be an issue of not being able to come up with material for a session. I can admit to creating a bland session just to get blunt situations out of the way (traversing a forest, locating a dungeon, etc.).

It could also be your DM is just burnt out. DMing is fun, but playing is fun as well, and maybe he wants to get in on the playing action.
#8
dragonsblood
Mar 04, 2010 2:17:06 Maybe you should try DMing so you can show him how it's done.
#9
FrozenWastes
Mar 04, 2010 19:49:07 I'd recommend the following techniques that might help:

Players play NPCs
- Not every situation requires the entire party talk to a given NPC. So make a little writeup about personality, description, goals and desires of a given NPC. Give this card to a player who's PC is not in the conversation. It's okay that if by reading that the given player learns something he otherwise wouldn't. Trust your players to do what's right with a given character's secret. Even if party members are present, they can be silent/in the background during the conversation. Or the player can play both and speak as his PC for short times as long as he can make it work.

Players name things, you record them.
- There's nothing wrong with going "and what's it called?" or "And her name is?" and letting players fill in the blanks. Just write it down on the NPC card right away. Same with town names and the like. Just write it down.

List of names.
- Search google for "fantasy name generator" and generate a bunch in advance. Print them off and use them whenever you need. Write down when you use one and to whom/what it was applied.

Box text
- Prewritten modules have great examples of description. Either use these or steal from them if describing things is difficult for you. Infact, you may be well suited to running premade mudles/adventures rather than your own stuff. Either way, look at the types of things that are described in a given piece of box text and make sure to cover the same sort of things in your own description. It's OKAY to write out your own box text in advance.

Take those "wish lists" from the players
- The DMG suggests taking wish lists of magic items from players so you know what they want. Take those lists and make an effort to include some of those items in the treasure. For other items, use the random generator found at www.asmor.com/scripts/4eMagicItems/rando...

--

I think the above techniques would really help. Especially the "players play NPCs" one. It's a bit unorthodox, but it is very, very powerful.
#10
grumpycelt
Mar 04, 2010 23:08:36 Try Tobasco Sauce.
#11
deviknyte
Mar 05, 2010 22:17:11 It just might not be his "turn" at the moment. He may be GM'd out. Let him take the player's seat for another campaign or two.
#12
acerumble
Mar 05, 2010 23:41:31 Something that's working great for my group right now is alternating DMs/campaigns each week, so one week I'm the DM in my world and the next a PC in another player's world. Helps prevent burnout from having to be the creative DM every week, and gain the benefit of constant reminders of what it's like to play a PC and what circumstances make it fun (yes, even the best DMs can lose touch with what makes the game fun for a PC player if they never do anything but DM).

So cut him some slack, and someone step up and take the reins for a new adventure. Your old DM will appreciate the break, and benefit from exposure to someone else's style and imagination to help re-inspire his own game.
#13
umruk
Mar 06, 2010 10:24:49
We have a DM who's been DMing campaigns for roughly 8 years.

Put the game on pause. Purchase a one-off module. DM it yourself, from start to finish. Maybe it's only three or six levels long. That's okay. The point is, 8 years is too long a stretch for almost anyone to DM (I would know, it's been 10 years since I've been a player), and someone else needs to carry the torch for awhile.
#14
noneedforaname
Mar 06, 2010 14:49:33 I've tried co-DMing before. It was for a large group that my freind wanted to run an adventure for but wasn't sure he'd be able to wrangle that many people. He is exceptionally good at creating descriptions of battles on the fly and being creative. I personally like to write descriptions of the setting and NPCs. So during the week between sessions we'd brainstorm together what was going to happen then I'd write it out and he'd run the show on game day with me acting as NPCs and doing the things that tend to bog down the adventure like looking up rules or making sure everyone at the table is paying attention. I really had fun, we only got to run 2 sessions for outside reasons but I would've liked to continue that way, oh well.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 coactus Mar 02, 2010 23:57:39	We have a DM who's been DMing campaigns for roughly 8 years. Back in the early days, his campaigns were full of flavor and we felt like we were denizens of an actual world. He has DM'd roughly 4 Campaigns in this time. Generally there's roughly a year break between. I don't feel like he's run out of steam, he just seems to inadvertantly place no importance on flavor anymore. For example, we just finished up an adventure, and (In a nautically-themed campaign), we sailed to our next destination. We had an encounter at sea, and after we finished the encounter, he began drawing a map for the next dungeon. Apparently, we had landed on the island we were sailing to, located the temple we were looking for, and entered it, all in the span of about 5 seconds in real life. Now, this might seem trivial at a glace, but we find outselves having little emotional investment in our sorroundings, and rarely actually remembering why we were there, who we were looking for, what we were looking for, etc. Descriptions of rooms are generally "You see a room. There's a lever in it." We generally have to ASK specifics. Sometimes i will mess with him and say "What color is the paint?" This fellow is not an overly expressive or obviously creative person. He struggles with naming things, and he tends to fall into trends, and his NPC's are all (As another PC puts it) HIM. I end up coming up with half the NPC's names, and name most of his monsters (He homebrews about half of the monsters we fight. This, however, is not an issue.) Finally, we rarely if ever find items or money. We generally find great, heaping piles of residuum. He's generally receptive to criticism and advice, but how do you tell a DM that his campaign has zero flavor, and it's like after we finish one level, there's a 'load screen' and we begin the next level. It's like playing Diablo with 4e rules. I really love my character, and want to continue. His campaign simply feels like a very poorly paced movie. The action sequences are good, and the overall plot is solid, but there's little buildup or emotional investment. HAs anyone shared a similar experience that can relate how they might have helped solve this?
#2 lofgren Mar 03, 2010 1:43:54	That is an extremely tough one. It sounds like he's burnt out on the story. First of all, are you sure he isn't deliberately running a hack'n'slash campaign? Sometimes those are fun. He may not realize that you are looking for more. Something that might work is co-DMing. If he is a very good encounter designer and puzzlemaker, somebody with more interest in the narrative aspects of the world could team up with him. Since this stuff is interesting enough to you to invent even as you are playing, offer to take a look at his notes before the game and come up with evocative descriptions of the scenery, creatures, and people. Maybe having a short description of his NPCs will inspire him to roleplay them more. (Hell, if I could find a co-DM who was a better encounter designer than me, I would love to do this.) I've never seen this done in practice so I'm not sure how well it would work, but there must be somebody out there who's tried it. And if not, you could always be the first.
#3 Khayal_the_Eternal Mar 03, 2010 1:46:22	Just do what I do when I find that my DM lacks flavor. Apply BBQ Sauce.
#4 beowuuf Mar 03, 2010 2:04:18	While it sounds like you liked the flavour, did anyone actually say they liked it, or ever react to it? Especially if it's not natural to him, putting in such touches and having them apparently have zero effect would be bad. You might find he's decided you guys don't like that aspect because you never reacted to it, and so hasn't bothered. In this instance, trying to joke about it would backfire, because it would look like you are takign a swing at him even after he's stopped doing the thing he thought you lot didn't like in the first place.
#5 DwarfFighter Mar 03, 2010 2:13:20	There's so super-drug you can inject him with to trigger his inspiration. :P So you've been playing with this GM a lot over the years. Has he really changed, or is it you? Back when I was twelve, all I needed from the GM was this: GM: "Ath the end of the corridor there's a CAVE! It's BIG! And it's got a DRAGON in it!" Me: "Whoa!" These days that would come across as a bit... bland. -DF
#6 palomon Mar 03, 2010 11:09:23	If he is as receptive as you say he is, it shouldn't be too hard for you to bring it up. If you want advice on how to bring it up, my best advice is to focus on what he used to do that you liked rather than focusing on what you don't like now. For example, instead of saying, "your adventures suck, you should spice it up," think of an adventure he ran in the past and tell him what you liked about it (that he described the scars that your enemy has, or he used all senses when describing a room, etc.) and tell him how much you liked it. You can bring then bring up that you miss that flavor, and that his adventures now would be so much better if he added it in. This way, he'll see that you're not insulting his adventures now, but that you'd just like a little more and that you know he can bring his adventures to life. Otherwise, if you think it might help, go to a local RPGA event with the DM where you can both play PCs and not have him DMing. Observing another DM might spark the idea in his mind that he has been a little lax in his descriptions. Worldwide D&D Gameday is coming up soon, which would be a great opportunity for this! I also agree with lofgren that a co-DM might help out. Also, maybe he needs a week or two off to just get some of the responsibility off his chest, let him renew his love for the game, and take some time to do some real, solid development for the campaign.
#7 dionnecurat Mar 03, 2010 15:43:59	I guess it depends on the time in-between each session, or the DM himself. Time-wise, it could be an issue of not being able to come up with material for a session. I can admit to creating a bland session just to get blunt situations out of the way (traversing a forest, locating a dungeon, etc.). It could also be your DM is just burnt out. DMing is fun, but playing is fun as well, and maybe he wants to get in on the playing action.
#8 dragonsblood Mar 04, 2010 2:17:06	Maybe you should try DMing so you can show him how it's done.
#9 FrozenWastes Mar 04, 2010 19:49:07	I'd recommend the following techniques that might help: Players play NPCs - Not every situation requires the entire party talk to a given NPC. So make a little writeup about personality, description, goals and desires of a given NPC. Give this card to a player who's PC is not in the conversation. It's okay that if by reading that the given player learns something he otherwise wouldn't. Trust your players to do what's right with a given character's secret. Even if party members are present, they can be silent/in the background during the conversation. Or the player can play both and speak as his PC for short times as long as he can make it work. Players name things, you record them. - There's nothing wrong with going "and what's it called?" or "And her name is?" and letting players fill in the blanks. Just write it down on the NPC card right away. Same with town names and the like. Just write it down. List of names. - Search google for "fantasy name generator" and generate a bunch in advance. Print them off and use them whenever you need. Write down when you use one and to whom/what it was applied. Box text - Prewritten modules have great examples of description. Either use these or steal from them if describing things is difficult for you. Infact, you may be well suited to running premade mudles/adventures rather than your own stuff. Either way, look at the types of things that are described in a given piece of box text and make sure to cover the same sort of things in your own description. It's OKAY to write out your own box text in advance. Take those "wish lists" from the players - The DMG suggests taking wish lists of magic items from players so you know what they want. Take those lists and make an effort to include some of those items in the treasure. For other items, use the random generator found at www.asmor.com/scripts/4eMagicItems/rando... -- I think the above techniques would really help. Especially the "players play NPCs" one. It's a bit unorthodox, but it is very, very powerful.
#10 grumpycelt Mar 04, 2010 23:08:36	Try Tobasco Sauce.
#11 deviknyte Mar 05, 2010 22:17:11	It just might not be his "turn" at the moment. He may be GM'd out. Let him take the player's seat for another campaign or two.
#12 acerumble Mar 05, 2010 23:41:31	Something that's working great for my group right now is alternating DMs/campaigns each week, so one week I'm the DM in my world and the next a PC in another player's world. Helps prevent burnout from having to be the creative DM every week, and gain the benefit of constant reminders of what it's like to play a PC and what circumstances make it fun (yes, even the best DMs can lose touch with what makes the game fun for a PC player if they never do anything but DM). So cut him some slack, and someone step up and take the reins for a new adventure. Your old DM will appreciate the break, and benefit from exposure to someone else's style and imagination to help re-inspire his own game.
#13 umruk Mar 06, 2010 10:24:49	We have a DM who's been DMing campaigns for roughly 8 years. Put the game on pause. Purchase a one-off module. DM it yourself, from start to finish. Maybe it's only three or six levels long. That's okay. The point is, 8 years is too long a stretch for almost anyone to DM (I would know, it's been 10 years since I've been a player), and someone else needs to carry the torch for awhile.
#14 noneedforaname Mar 06, 2010 14:49:33	I've tried co-DMing before. It was for a large group that my freind wanted to run an adventure for but wasn't sure he'd be able to wrangle that many people. He is exceptionally good at creating descriptions of battles on the fly and being creative. I personally like to write descriptions of the setting and NPCs. So during the week between sessions we'd brainstorm together what was going to happen then I'd write it out and he'd run the show on game day with me acting as NPCs and doing the things that tend to bog down the adventure like looking up rules or making sure everyone at the table is paying attention. I really had fun, we only got to run 2 sessions for outside reasons but I would've liked to continue that way, oh well.