We are playing the H1 keep book, and in the rooms with the goblins and tapestries I decided to sneak up to one and check out what was on the other side.
The book says its a dc 10ish check to pull them down, and difficult terrain to move through them, so I figured I'd stealth up and slowly push one to the side, just enought to see what was on the other side. I got 23 on my stealth, my perception was 22 to hear if there was anything on the other side. Making it to the tapestry, I was told that it required a standard action stregnth check to move it a few centimeters to see behind it, and once I did that the goblins on the other side apparently all knew i was there, and launched javalins at me. I apparent'y didnt get cover from the tapestry since they say me looking and was hit by a few of them.
Am I wrong to be slightly ticked about it being a standard action to make a stregnth check, to just move a corner of the thing over to see whats on the other side? Am I wrong that the goblins who have been camping out in the other room for who knows how long should have had a bit more of a problem noticing me?
The goblins noticeing you seems a bit harsh. Unless the goblins are keeping an ear out, they would be using their passive perseptions, and I doubt they could hear a 23.
The cover issue is compleatly in your favor. I would actually go as far to say you should have superior cover. If they can only see you through an inch gap, there is no way they would not get penilties for attacking you.
Hope this helps.
Yeah, I'd say your gripes are rather justified. Problem is, I've seen more DMs doing stuff like that these days. I have no idea why, it's like they're just running fast and loose and not actually reading the DMG and PHB.
Either way, good luck talking it out with your DM. Definitely recommend discussing it outside of game, if possible. Obvious recommendations are, of course, obvious.
But as you said, "off" calls. Sometimes there will be apparent mistakes made by the DM. Sometimes you just won't agree with certain decisions.
Usually, you take an extended rest and everything is perfect again.
If it happens frequently you have a problem that you should talk out.
As respectfully as possible, communicate your issues with that situation, not using any antagonizing language. Ask what his thinking was on that situation, since it's now over.
H1 I think also has a lot of issues with it that may seem like the DM's doing, but may be caused by the DM following written scenarios too accurately. Or misreading something that isn't written very clearly in the first place.
That kind of thing can happen with any published adventure, because it's inherently written by a person or people not the same as who will be running it, and not with your players and PCs quite in mind. Much of the time they only give "obvious" scenarios to most effectively utilize the space they have, but often the players don't follow them and the DM has to improvise, which can take some experience to do well.
So without that particular information given on how to handle what you were doing, the DM had to do what he thought best. Maybe, to the DM, some of the goblins actually "were" facing right to the curtain. Who knows.
EDIT: I think something that may be good to get into the habit of doing is running your idea by the DM entirely at first, giving a space for thought, and then going about figuring out the "how" of it by asking the DM questions. (Ex. "Is it possible for my character to carefully peek in the room and see what's there, without being noticed?") If the process the DM suggests seems too complex or like it wouldn't actually work, you don't do the action.
I don't know if that is how you did it, so I apologize if I'm just spouting unnecessary advice, but it usually helps if you explain what you want to do, why you want to do it/what you expect to get, and then asking the DM if your idea seems like it will work or if there would be something else that would work better.
If the DM thinks what you've proposed doesn't make sense in the game world, that is usually something your character should be aware of as well, since the character exists in the game world, and would want to do things the "right" way.
When you feel you have a good handle on the DM's style, you won't have to do it so much that way.
EDIT: I think something that may be good to get into the habit of doing is running your idea by the DM entirely at first, giving a space for thought, and then going about figuring out the "how" of it by asking the DM questions. (Ex. "Is it possible for my character to carefully peek in the room and see what's there, without being noticed?") If the process the DM suggests seems too complex or like it wouldn't actually work, you don't do the action
I think this is very good advice. This way it gives you a chance to work things out with the gm before getting caught up in it all. It also allows you to notice when things are "out of place", for example if you had set off a trap or otherwise "it should have been ok but....". For all we know the goblins may have been tipped off by something else that you are unaware of.
So, talk it all out with the gm first and find what the rolls you are about to make should do for you and what consequences your gm feels the proposed actions will trigger.
Turning a corner aside to peek through will not negate your cover. In fact, you'd still have superior cover at that point, not just normal cover.
The DC 10 strength check is to pull the tapestries down off of their hooks. Turning an edge aside should not require a strength check; the things aren't made of lead.
Turning a corner aside to peek through will not negate your cover. In fact, you'd still have superior cover at that point, not just normal cover.
I'd give normal cover *at most*, not Superior. It's not like the tapestries are expected to truly stop a missile attack.
Cover and Concealment or Total Concealment would be what I'd give - so, either -4 or -*7*, instead of the -5 from Superior Cover, and the Concealment/Total Concealment thing would depend on light sources.
EDIT: I think something that may be good to get into the habit of doing is running your idea by the DM entirely at first, giving a space for thought, and then going about figuring out the "how" of it by asking the DM questions. (Ex. "Is it possible for my character to carefully peek in the room and see what's there, without being noticed?") If the process the DM suggests seems too complex or like it wouldn't actually work, you don't do the action.
I usualy try to make a effort to do this, since its not me making the rule calls, but I'll pay more attention to it in the future.
The DC 10 strength check is to pull the tapestries down off of their hooks. Turning an edge aside should not require a strength check; the things aren't made of lead.
Turning a corner aside to peek through will not negate your cover. In fact, you'd still have superior cover at that point, not just normal cover.
Thats exactly what I said if I remember correctly, something like "Allright I peak around the corner" "make a stregnth check" "what? really? Its fabric and im pushing it sideways slightly" "yup make a stregnth check" "holy crap is this stuf made out of lead or something? I'm not touching it if it is"
thanks for the opinions on this guys.
I agree that the peeking past the tapestry and maintaining stealth should be easy.
But, I get the impression the dm was afraid you would have no challenge and was overcompensating.
Learning to not panic when the players own your encounters can be difficult.
Also, the dm is not bound to follow the module down to the last letter. The dm is free to change the tapestries to be made of steel if he likes. Now....abusing that sort of change is another issue
I think he is trying to hard to be a DM or something.
If he set the DC to move the curtin really low like it should be (like a DC 1 or 2) why bother rolling you are GOING to pass. Even if you roll a 1 you will pass because you can't auto fail skill checks.
Now if he is setting the DC so you have a chance to fail I would pick up my cat and let him walk through the curtin to show how "tough" moving a curtin is
He should have been the one tossing the curtain aside.
Your DM made a bad call, that's it.
Talk to him, sort things out and play again.
Next time will be better.
Honestly, mistakes like that happen in the heat of the game, when you look at things afterward, they don't make much sense. Everybody learns.
Where is Splugg/Meepo when we need him the most?
He should have been the one tossing the curtain aside.
Your DM made a bad call, that's it.
Talk to him, sort things out and play again.
Next time will be better.
Honestly, mistakes like that happen in the heat of the game, when you look at things afterward, they don't make much sense. Everybody learns.
Next session I'm going to mention it to try and avoide things like this in the future. Changing up the game is aokay with me, but it was strange that the curtain was harder to get through than a normal door (dc was 10 to move it).
ALso I believe splugg/meepo was brutally killed by our halforc earlier for some reason...
Never said he was a bad dm at all, this 1/2 calls annoyed me is all.
Some posters suggested some great things like reading the DMG, or the entire adventure, or as a PC running everything by the DM to make it clear what you are trying to do. Following that advice will probably lower your bad call rate as a DM. I know when I make any call I try to make it in favor of moving the game along quickly. I discourage picking up a book if I think it will break down into a rules lawyer argument, and I try to make calls in favor of the PCs. The people I played with were friends, and I figured we are here to have fun. Making it too easy can be hurtful too, but if making a quick call that moves the game along makes everyone happy then it is a success to me.
If, however, the player thinks an action should work a certain way that doesn't make sense, or is in contradiction to the rules then the DM could look like they made a bad call. I'm not saying that is what happened with you, because that could work the other way too with the DM thinking about a rule incorrectly.
These are off calls, no question about it. Moving curtain should be an uncontested minor action at most. Also, curtains cannot simultaneously be difficult terrain (for PCs) and transparent, offering no cover (for monsters).
Sounds like a greenish DM to me. Honestly though, this is the kind of thing I'd expect to get better over time. Cut the guy a little slack and let this one go. If it keeps happening, then I'd say something.
And I think the idea of running your entire action idea past the DM before making rolls is a great idea. And if he/she habitually says no in such cases, you'll know to have a converstaion with him/her sooner.
I was wondering if I'm in the right to be annoyed by these types of calls, or if I'm the one who should lighten up.
We are playing the H1 keep book, and in the rooms with the goblins and tapestries I decided to sneak up to one and check out what was on the other side.
The book says its a dc 10ish check to pull them down, and difficult terrain to move through them, so I figured I'd stealth up and slowly push one to the side, just enought to see what was on the other side. I got 23 on my stealth, my perception was 22 to hear if there was anything on the other side. Making it to the tapestry, I was told that it required a standard action stregnth check to move it a few centimeters to see behind it, and once I did that the goblins on the other side apparently all knew i was there, and launched javalins at me. I apparent'y didnt get cover from the tapestry since they say me looking and was hit by a few of them.
Am I wrong to be slightly ticked about it being a standard action to make a stregnth check, to just move a corner of the thing over to see whats on the other side? Am I wrong that the goblins who have been camping out in the other room for who knows how long should have had a bit more of a problem noticing me?
Sounds like a combination of maybe clumsy DMing and perhaps player knowledge abuse.
"The book says its a dc 10ish check to pull them down, and difficult terrain to move through them"
Did the DM tell you that? If not, how do you know that?
Sounds like you wanted to use knowledge of an encounter, and the DM was trying to punish your use of player knowledge but not effectively.
I was wondering if I'm in the right to be annoyed by these types of calls, or if I'm the one who should lighten up.
We are playing the H1 keep book, and in the rooms with the goblins and tapestries I decided to sneak up to one and check out what was on the other side.
The book says its a dc 10ish check to pull them down, and difficult terrain to move through them, so I figured I'd stealth up and slowly push one to the side, just enought to see what was on the other side. I got 23 on my stealth, my perception was 22 to hear if there was anything on the other side. Making it to the tapestry, I was told that it required a standard action stregnth check to move it a few centimeters to see behind it, and once I did that the goblins on the other side apparently all knew i was there, and launched javalins at me. I apparent'y didnt get cover from the tapestry since they say me looking and was hit by a few of them.
Am I wrong to be slightly ticked about it being a standard action to make a stregnth check, to just move a corner of the thing over to see whats on the other side? Am I wrong that the goblins who have been camping out in the other room for who knows how long should have had a bit more of a problem noticing me?
Sounds like a combination of maybe clumsy DMing and perhaps player knowledge abuse.
"The book says its a dc 10ish check to pull them down, and difficult terrain to move through them"
Did the DM tell you that? If not, how do you know that?
Sounds like you wanted to use knowledge of an encounter, and the DM was trying to punish your use of player knowledge but not effectively.
or he could have learned after what the dcs for those are
But seriosly a DC 10 to move the curtin. My cat does it all the time. I must have strong cat
I was wondering if I'm in the right to be annoyed by these types of calls, or if I'm the one who should lighten up.
We are playing the H1 keep book, and in the rooms with the goblins and tapestries I decided to sneak up to one and check out what was on the other side.
The book says its a dc 10ish check to pull them down, and difficult terrain to move through them, so I figured I'd stealth up and slowly push one to the side, just enought to see what was on the other side. I got 23 on my stealth, my perception was 22 to hear if there was anything on the other side. Making it to the tapestry, I was told that it required a standard action stregnth check to move it a few centimeters to see behind it, and once I did that the goblins on the other side apparently all knew i was there, and launched javalins at me. I apparent'y didnt get cover from the tapestry since they say me looking and was hit by a few of them.
Am I wrong to be slightly ticked about it being a standard action to make a stregnth check, to just move a corner of the thing over to see whats on the other side? Am I wrong that the goblins who have been camping out in the other room for who knows how long should have had a bit more of a problem noticing me?
Speaking as a DM Id say that moving a tapestry is no more demanding than opening a door - Minor action, need for a Strength check id say not required.
You did sneak up to the tapestry so the goblins wouldn't have spotted you and IF for some reason they did( I can't see how though) that you would've only exposed your head - Heavy Cover.
The DM needs to draw stronger parrallels with actions immediately covered in the rules.
Dming is tricky when players are asking to do things not specifically mentioned in the rules but I'd say he or she just needs to consider the available actions and draw parallels with what the PC is asking to do.
However give them a break because any DM can make mistakes, just maybe get them to check out the forums from time to time to get some suggestions\advice.
But seriosly a DC 10 to move the curtin. My cat does it all the time. I must have strong cat
While I'm not suggesting the DM is in the right here, a lot of people haven't considered how heavy a curtain can be, or why. Stage curtains are weighted, for instance.
IIRC, the tapestry in question was designed to hide a passage, and that LAST thing you want that to do is move accidentally. Lots of display tapestries are also made of inflexible fabric, making the idea of pulling one corner or edge back without moving the whole damn thing impractical.
Just throwing that out there.
The tapestry was used to section off one bed from the others, not to block view of the secret passage. Moreover, the adventure itself would certainly have made note of it were the tapestry heavy enough that an average person might not be able to draw it aside.
sooo then my cat couldn't open that curtin?
I am not familiar with the module in question, but could the DC 10 check have been meant to be a dexterity check? Possibly to move it without being detected?
I would liek to think if that was the case the OP would have said something by now
if you guys want to keep discussing this... for whatever reason here is the exact text for the things:
Tapestries: These thick tapestries block line of
sight and line of effect and provide an obstacle between
squares, requiring 2 squares of movement for a Medium
creature to move through them. A PC can pull down a tapestry
with a DC 15 Strength check.
The only dc is to actually pull them off the walls, I assume they were attached by some iron rings or something strong. It is difficult terrain to move through, since its not easy to run through giant things of fabric.
The best answer is to sit down with the DM, and ask what was up with that. Give them the benefit of the doubt (that they probably misread) and then work on coming to an agreement if a similar situation should come up in the future.