I have a DM who doesn't solve any issues; he instead attacks your character.
He doesn't understand that it's a problem, he'll say sometimes after a game that he had to roll 1d10 punishment damage for asking a 'stupid' question.
One of the players actually seems to agree (or hides his opinion when I ask) with this behavior saying that "I understand.".
I don't.
Every game seems to have:
2-3 cases of random damage from questioning him
1-2 cases of ending your turn immediately for rolling while he's distracted (no rerolls)
1 case of ninjas surrounding your PC for being generally dislikeable
1 case of ending your turn immediately for doing too much damage
1 case of ending your turn immediately for using a Standard, Move AND Minor for great value
1 case of negating your status effects because status effects are too powerful on Elite mobs
Bonus: Rules change every session, always out of your favor. They're not houserules though, WotC's official ruling.
Also the two times people have confronted him about particular rules his reply was "You are now half your level, roll for initiative."
I just wanted to know if this is typical behavior because I find it childish, and no one in the group seems to be vocal enough to do anything.
Unfortunately the group is filled with my friends, and the only other 4.0 group I know of has "That guy who joined the group to kill a person he hates IRL in game.".
I could always play 3.5, but I'd prefer to stay in my comfort zone.
I'm not sure if this is arsy DMing or well-intentioned but inexperienced DMing, but either way its bad DMing.
For example, status effects on elite monsters can cause what should be a climatic combat to become very boring. Its not unusual to modify elites such that they are immune to certain status effects, or to let them end a save-ends effect per round without requiring the save. Its not good form to rub this in player's faces, however, and it should not feel 'arbitrary'. But - to my mind - its not such a great sin to accidentally have something feel arbitrary than it is to be deliberately bad.
I don't think I'd ever impose damage to a PC because the player questioned me, or for rolling when I'm distracted, but I can imagine the case of a very arsy group of players where I'd despair, consider it, and probably decide to shut the game down instead (but I guess this does not apply to your group? Mabye your DM has had bad experiences in the past).
There's really no excuse for forcing a player to end their turn because it was a successful turn though.
Yours,
JMH
Speak to him about this and tell him that he is not only curbing your ability to roleplay, but also interfearing directly with actions that are of natural cause to this game (Such as heroically slaying a lot of minons at once). If things don't improve, talk to the other players and start your session off by getting everyone to tell him how they feel. If things don't improve then, then tell him personally that you have no interest in playing in his sessions any more until he improves and either start up your own sesson or take a breather till he gets the hint.
DnD should never be about the players vs the DM, aside from in battle situations within the confines of the rules, but rahter working to create a pleasent enviroment for everyone involved. Again, there may be issues going on with the players I don't know about, but talking about it in a cival manner is the best way to start.
"You have critically failed your DMing check and cut off your own players."
Communication is the first place to start. Make sure the DM knows you're displeased and WHY you're displeased. DM's make JOKES about doing all these things you mention, they don't actually DO them to their players and their PC's. Now the thing about this kind of communication is that it's uncomfortable to have to do it at all and not easy to do well. Even if you do it well it may not work. If you can talk to the DM one on one. Keep calm. Don't make accusations as such but frame your points as YOUR personal issues: "This is a problem for me because it strikes ME as petty, childish and irritating," rather than, "You're a bad DM because these things are petty, childish and irritating." Know ahead of time where you're going to draw the line. Would you be satisfied if he just knocks off the worst of it - or, knowing yourself, will you ultimately require him to cease all of it. How much crap are you willing to put up with? Let him know that you WILL ultimately walk away if necessary (and don't make that an empty threat).
If he can't or won't start changing his ways you either walk or you bring the other players on line to demonstrate to him that this is not JUST you, but everyone he's irritating with this puerile nonsense. Again, this is not about revenge against him for his failures (let that crap GO - it's just a game) but attempting to get him to improve. If that fails then walk away. See if the other players will walk with you. Start a new group. Be magnanimous: INVITE him to join as a player.
If you decide to go the other route then I'd probably just start IGNORING him. He says you take random damage - don't mark it down. He says you're surrounded by ninjas, just laugh and proceed as if he made a joke (which it ultimately is). If he throws out some wild random punishment like losing half your levels because you disagree with "the rules" don't just accept it and let play continue - argue the point. Don't knuckle under - STAND UP to bad DMing. Refuse to accept it. Fight against it. If it's petty and juvenile then announce to the table that it's petty and juvenile and get the other players riled up. Get THEM to stand up for their right to better gaming. Foment revolution. Practice "civil" gaming disobedience. But DON'T use it to just push the DM around to get back at him for past injustices. Your goal should STILL be to get him to simply be a better DM. Be DESERVING of a better DM insofar as is still possible. Accept negative rulings if they are at least reasonable even if they aren't by-the-book.
Good luck.
If you decide to go the other route then I'd probably just start IGNORING him. He says you take random damage - don't mark it down. He says you're surrounded by ninjas, just laugh and proceed as if he made a joke (which it ultimately is). If he throws out some wild random punishment like losing half your levels because you disagree with "the rules" don't just accept it and let play continue - argue the point. Don't knuckle under - STAND UP to bad DMing. Refuse to accept it. Fight against it. If it's petty and juvenile then announce to the table that it's petty and juvenile and get the other players riled up. Get THEM to stand up for their right to better gaming. Foment revolution. Practice "civil" gaming disobedience.
I strongly disagree with this approach; I think the first part of your post is by far the better advice. Trying to go head to head with the DM within the game is never, ever going to work. The balance of power between DM and players in-game is entirely unequal - as long as you're in his game, the DM is in control. Whereas, if you attempt to resolve this outside of the game, you're doing so as a friend and an equal. He's almost certainly acting the way that he is because of an adversarial atmosphere at your table. Doesn't really matter whose fault it is; if you want to make things better you need to defuse the situation, not escalate it.
I have to assume that there are some good things about his campaign (other than the fact that your friends play), or you'd just walk away. I think this is a job for the good old feedback sandwich (praise-criticism-praise):
1. I really enjoy blah, blah about your campaign and all the effort that you put into it each week. BUT, there are some pretty major issues that are stopping me from having fun and I'm seriously considering quitting.
2. Details of those things
3. Try to end on a positive note, ask if there are some things that you can do as a player.
This is one of the more extreme cases of dysfunctional DMing that I've seen on these forums, and I'd personally be very tempted to walk away from it, but if you're going to try and fix it, something like the above is probably your best shot.
"No. you're done for the day. Close your notebook and DMG, and roll up a character, Your story ends, mine is going to begin, and won't be a nonsense crapfest of arbitrary awful rules and Dm adjucation who can't take valid criticisms, because unlike you, I'm not some sociopath that thinks annoyances should be dealt with in a completly insane manner and am open to criticism and corrections like a sane rational human being."
When I see bad Dming like that, I turn into a dragon and bite their head off.
See how the other players feel. If they agree, next time it happens say "No it doesn't. And we chatted. If this stuff keeps happening you won't be DM anymore". If it keeps happening, let someone else DM. Even if its their first time, knowing not to do that stuff is steps ahead of a DM who doesn't.
I personally would let the bad DM be a player in the game, but I also could see an arguement for not.
He is failing at many of the basics.
I strongly suspect that his personality would not react well to being told just how badly he sucks as a DM.
If this fellow was able to take critsism and advice, mine would be the following:
1) Be consistant. Never house rule anything unless everyone at the table thinks it is a wonderful idea.
2) It is ok for the charcaters to kick ass and to succeed. This includes stomping your beloved villains into paste. It's ok.
3) Never punish players for doing well in the game. Really...how stupid can a DM be?
4) A DM is meant to be a fair judge, and to make sure everyone at the table is having fun. The DM is not there to 'win'
5) He is just being an asshat, and a DM has to earn the players trust, not piss them off.
All of the above are my personal opinions on DMing.
Sounds like the answer is a resounding "NO!"
I suggest you start making plans for the campaign you're going to run, after giving this guy the ouster.
I'm really sorry you've found yourself with such an **** as a DM. The plain fact of the matter is that you're going to have to talk to him as an adult and tell him that these things are childish and not on what so ever. The DM exists so the players enjoy the game, he's not competing against them what so ever. If the DM doesn't respond to this or does so even more chidishly just walk, it's not worth your time. And no doubt other players are equally pissed off so you can all just walk.
Best of luck and hope you find better DM's in the future.
After talking to him twice we stopped marking things down. So he said 'you character is dead.' We would ignore and mve on and he took the character sheet from the player, and set it aflame with his lighter. To this day he -still- wonders why we won't play under him.
But if you want to continue, ignoring his stupid rulings might work, maybe. The problem is it probably won't stop his bullying. He might just double-up or throw a tantrum.
Like others said, perhaps you could come to a consensus with the rest of the group that if the DM doesn't change, you are all going to quit his game and follow through with this if necessary.
You should probably also show him this thread. If that doesn't make him reassess his concepts of fairness, fun for all, and being an impartial referee, then it's probably a hopeless situation.
If the rest of the group thinks that it's not so bad and doesn't want to make the DM change then you have two choices, deal with the bullying (and the other players' wimpiness) or walk away and don't look back.
I still say bad D&D is worse than no D&D at all.
However, I like the idea of starting your own group without this guy and showing how you can be a better DM than him. Stupidity is usually its own punishment.
I'd also add a healthy dose of "no, it doesn't" when he tries to end my turn prematurely or ignores my status effects. Because if he wants to throw the rulebook out of the window, there's nothing stopping me from doing the same.
Disclaimer: this is what I would do. Don't do this unless you and the DM are very good friends.
Look, rather then all the actions described above, first talk to him out of session and let him know how you feel about this.
Agreed - lots of posts recommending Initimidate where it's clearly a situation that calls for Diplomacy ;)
alternatively you could just quit talking to this idiot and find someone reasonable to game with.
In all seriousness this sounds awful. It sounds like the DM is trying to be "funny" but turns into..well lets face a d-bag. No getting around it.
I doubt talking to him will do good, though you should still try it. It's better to leave a good game then stay with a bad game. this falls under the latter
It's also not like you don't have other things to do, or other options to play. You could try the VTT
@svendj there is one other reason to do what you suggested: he doesn't care if he ever talks to the DM again.
Hence the "don't do this unless you're good friends" disclaimer. This shouldn't break up a good friendship, so later you can both probably look back on this and laugh about it.
Look, rather then all the actions described above, first talk to him out of session and let him know how you feel about this.
Agreed - lots of posts recommending Initimidate where it's clearly a situation that calls for Diplomacy ;)
But I rolled a wisdom check and it told me that in this case I'd have a better chance with Intimidate than Diplomacy.
Alternatively, one could always recruit a friend to play good cop bad cop so you could try both.
Look, rather then all the actions described above, first talk to him out of session and let him know how you feel about this.
Agreed - lots of posts recommending Initimidate where it's clearly a situation that calls for Diplomacy ;)
But I rolled a wisdom check and it told me that in this case I'd have a better chance with Intimidate than Diplomacy.
I don't think it told you that at all; quoting your successful Insight check below...
The problem is it probably won't stop his bullying. He might just double-up or throw a tantrum.
Look, rather then all the actions described above, first talk to him out of session and let him know how you feel about this.
Agreed - lots of posts recommending Initimidate where it's clearly a situation that calls for Diplomacy ;)
Communication (or more specifically, the FAILURE to communcate) amongst players or players with the DM, is the source of difficulty with 90% of game problems. It's not rules understandings and interpretations that kill games - it's the failure to communicate with other people at the table about those rules or whatever else.
The first and best option - ALWAYS - is going to be communication. Charging in with both guns blazing is stupid when potentially all you have to do is SAY, "this is a problem for me," and ASK that it be addressed. Most people shy away from this kind of confrontation, and as I said in my earlier post it's difficult to do well (at least if you have no practice in it) and it ISN'T the sort of thing one normally thinks to do because it requires looking at such situations dispassionately. Difficult to do when such situations are all about your hackles being up.
It is not something that people should be MEEK about, however. Maybe that's why (for the first time!) in my post on the topic I suggested another alternative. But I've realized now that even mentioning such things can be taken the wrong way. People have every reason to be upset when faced with the kind of behavior described in the OP. It always seems to go hand-in-hand with the statements, "these people are my FRIENDS and I don't want to NOT play D&D with my friends," and also, "there just isn't another game to join - it's suck it up or walk away." The point is that those aren't your only choices.
Just by initiating the dialog with the DM about, "this is a problem for me," you are providing yourself a third choice - to at least TRY to change the situation rather than just take it or leave it. When a player complains - strenuously - you disrupt the ease with which someone (such as described) can simply go on being a jerk. Being a jerk should have consequences. Fighting back does not have to mean physical altercations, name-calling, or stooping to juvenile revenge tactics. It DOES mean you have to take action. Just venting on forums is not taking action either. You have to step up to a person in the real world and have MATURE conversations about what's going on. To do that you need to embrace a mature perspective on all of it.
People are correct in saying that talking at him might not change anything... MIGHT not... That is not sufficient reason to decide not to even try it.
This is all a very messy process. There are no guarantees of how people will react. But it IS a process. It may take repeated conversations and a great deal of time to bring someone around. That too becomes a factor in how you decide to handle things - but not in choosing to respond to a jerk by being a BIGGER jerk. It is a factor in deciding when to just walk away. How much effort are YOU willing to put into this before you walk away? Yeah, you didn't want this burden, didn't ask for it - but this is the choice you're faced with nonetheless.
And consider this situation: You have two approaches to try to remedy the situation. One in which you demonstrate reason, patience, and understanding, and the other in which you demonstrate your own pettiness, immaturity, and obnoxiousness. Now assume you have "succeeded" and you have obatained the kind of DM and game of D&D that you want. Which do you think the TARGET of your efforts is going to be appreciative of? Which do you think is REALLY going to succeed, producing not just a better DM but BETTER PERSONS among both yourself and the others involved?
THAT is why you have to exercise communication here and not intimidation. To succeed by intimidation you must make yourself WORSE than he is. Ultimately the problem remains the same. You've just replaced one jerk with yourself as the jerk. You will have just hidden the problem making it likely to be WORSE when it resurfaces - and how do you think YOU will react then, when people start to tell you that YOU'RE the one being a jerk?
COMMUNICATION.
..I just can not understand why anyone would put up with that behavior out of convinience..