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DM vs Paladin

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
reiphil
Jul 22, 2009 22:47:16 So our DND group is running the Scales of War campaign, and as a group of 5, we have:

Swordmage
Paladin
Sorceror
Warlock
Ranger

Basically 2 melee, 3 ranged. Usually we do OK, as the DM in general makes things tactical. However, it has come to a point where the DM doesn't necessarily meta game, but weighs the pros and cons of attacking the tanks.

With a large fight, let's say 4-5 NPCs, of course we can lock 2 down as defenders, but the other 3 will go straight for clothies. Which in general is fine, it makes the defenders have to work for defending. But now the DM tends to jump past the paladin's divine challenge/sanction.

We are average level of 8, ad the paladin only does about 6 points of radiant damage on his mark. The text on the mark says that it compulses the target to attack you, of course this could be said that it is flavor text, and the DM can ignore that...

But what can we do as a party if the DM ignores the paladin completely? Is there even a reason to have the paladin anymore? It frustrates us because it feels as though now we have a wasted slot in our party make up.

Also - the DM will attack characters that have cover from range, even if the swordmage is standing in plain sight, because the DM knows that the swordmage is wearing a cloak of distortion...
#2
captcommy
Jul 22, 2009 22:57:37 The Paladin's mark is far from his most useful ability. Yes, a -2 and free damage is fun, but it's his other powers that make him a good addition. You shouldn't feel he's a wasted slot because Divine Challenge is being ignored.
#3
dragonspirit
Jul 22, 2009 23:01:03 Clothies? Yuck, no world of lamecraft talk please.

Anyhow, the DM seems to be playing this just fine. The mark and radiant damage are to provide a disincentive for the monsters, not to force them to behave like video game monsters. If the spellcasters are the best target, then that is where the monsters should go.

When your character encounter spellcasters, do you ignore their heavily armored warriors or do you force yourself to fight them the way you expect of the DM?
#4
zackblack
Jul 22, 2009 23:02:03 He's/She's the DM

DM = GOD

I suggest talking to your DM about you problems but ultimately his/her decision is final so you have to ether lump it or leave the group.
#5
dark_harrier
Jul 22, 2009 23:17:16 You should have a lot of nice things that keep allies from getting smacked around, even if your mark is getting ignored. Even if they do get smacked around, you can use Lay on hands to keep them from using surges (as seems to be a defender's job). Basically, you do have the tools to do your job, it just isn't so much in the mark, though it does help.
#6
gargs454
Jul 22, 2009 23:40:36 Aye, the mark does not force a monster to attack the paladin, it simply suggests that maybe they might want to. Certainly though an intelligent enemy is capable of assessing the penalties associated with attacking somebody else and weighing those against the benefits derived. In other words, despite the -2 and the automatic damage, it is in the enemies best interest to attack the strikers (since they are the ones dealing the most damage).

Frankly, in my experience, the paladin tends to be more because of his leader-like abilities than his pure defending abilities. Fighters and Wardens for example can do a much better job of preventing the enemies from attacking their allies, but then they don't have as much of a leader role either. In the end, its a trade off. Given your party makeup, I would say that the paladin is indeed valuable because of the healing he brings to the party.
#7
kouk
Jul 23, 2009 6:01:34
But what can we do as a party if the DM ignores the paladin completely? Is there even a reason to have the paladin anymore? It frustrates us because it feels as though now we have a wasted slot in our party make up.

You can give the Paladin a bigger weapon to use.

Ignoring a mark isn't necessarily tactically sound when he's doing auto damage and also hitting you every round for a not-insignificant sum.

Besides the free damage, the -2 attack should at least reduce their ability to hit. But, that is a known issue with the Paladin that they can only effectively deal with one guy at a time, if that many.

Also - the DM will attack characters that have cover from range, even if the swordmage is standing in plain sight, because the DM knows that the swordmage is wearing a cloak of distortion...

Simple solution here: Switch neck items.

Part of being a Defender is usually keeping yourself appearing to be a viable target. If you make yourself nigh-invisible to ranged attacks, you are not a viable target. Why would anybody waste time on a target they can't hit?

EDIT: Silly statement from me removed, didn't remember reading a part.

EDIT: 3 strikers do of course make it a bit tougher for Defenders to function at all. They are obvious targets for extermination and don't do much to help themselves by piling on damage.

Aside from the strikers "using restraint," I would suggest one or more of you switches roles really.
#8
Psikerlord
Jul 23, 2009 7:02:36 You might also try having your paladin do more damage. The closer your paladin is to doing strikerish damage, the more dangerous it is to ignore him, in addition to his mark/DC damage. His OA's become dangerous. If they move past him, he can flank and lay down the big damage encounter powers. Make your paladin a serious damage threat and the monsters will be forced to manage him.
#9
rauric
Jul 23, 2009 7:12:35 So your group is not all the same level?
#10
inigocarmine
Jul 23, 2009 9:19:40
But what can we do as a party if the DM ignores the paladin completely? Is there even a reason to have the paladin anymore? It frustrates us because it feels as though now we have a wasted slot in our party make up.

Let me re-iterate / summarize some good comments sprinkled throughout this thread.

A Defender's mark isn't supposed to make all enemies automatically pay attention only to him. It sets up a choice for the enemies: -2 to attack and suffer some negative effect...or take no penalties/ill effects and go after the defender (usually a less desirable target).

If the enemy chooses to take the penalties associated with the Paladin's mark, the Paladin *is* having an effect; he's doing auto-damage and giving an attack penalty.
#11
Arbitrary_Aardvark
Jul 23, 2009 13:10:01
We are average level of 8, ad the paladin only does about 6 points of radiant damage on his mark. The text on the mark says that it compulses the target to attack you, of course this could be said that it is flavor text, and the DM can ignore that...

But what can we do as a party if the DM ignores the paladin completely? Is there even a reason to have the paladin anymore? It frustrates us because it feels as though now we have a wasted slot in our party make up.

Also - the DM will attack characters that have cover from range, even if the swordmage is standing in plain sight, because the DM knows that the swordmage is wearing a cloak of distortion...

Whats the problem with the paladin's mark? I run a paladin, and in two sessions have only once had a monster take damage from my mark. The mark is doing what it should do, punishing the monster. Unlike the fighter's mark, which can cause massive damage to a creature ignoring it, and cause it's action to fail, the paladin's mark is a little weaker, providing a lesser disincentive (although the paladin makes up for it in other ways, a better AC for instance.) However, think of it this way:
1. By attacking someone else, the monster hits less often. Assuming about a 50% chance for it to hit, you have reduced its damage by 20%.
2. You are automatically inflicting 6 points of damage. This is around half of what you would do with a longsword on a basic attack (if you hit). Considering that you hit about half the time, this is like getting a free basic attack each round.

As a DM, I probably wouldn't have an unintelligent creature shift targets, but a smart one, sure.
#12
garner_adam
Jul 23, 2009 18:06:58
You can give the Paladin a bigger weapon to use.

Part of being a Defender is usually keeping yourself appearing to be a viable target. If you make yourself nigh-invisible to ranged attacks, you are not a viable target. Why would anybody waste time on a target they can't hit?

This guy speaks the ultimate truth about defenders. After a few sessions my player's started making their defenders only have 2 more ac than the highest other ac in the party. The advantage?

A paladin hits an enemy with enfeebling strike. -2 to attacks which is now -4 if he attacks some one else. Pretty much the enemy gets to choose. Attack the other guy with now the same ac as the paladin and risk an attack of opportunity and mark damage or just attack the paladin.
#13
ace_of_time
Jul 23, 2009 18:17:14 You have to start giving the DM a reason to go after the paladine first. Take advantage to the fact that he isn't attacking that PC. Make the PC a charger?
#14
CCS
Jul 24, 2009 2:06:50 If you want a simple mechanical solution, especially concerning the swordmage, try this;

The shooters make a normal save. Failure means they take the bait & try & tag the SM. Success means they can shoot as they please.
Could also work vrs the paladin if you want to invoke the fluff of his power.
We've used this general mechinc for years in various systems.

(Edit: I have no idea what the swordmages cloak does.)

Other than this my real advice is to stop dwelling on this. Especially the paladin "wasting" a slot in the party. Despite the terrible similarities to full on miniture wargames 4e has, your still playing D&D the RPG. So try telling stories about the characters you've rolled up & not just about thier powers.
#15
pyromancer2k
Jul 24, 2009 8:06:34
We are average level of 8, ad the paladin only does about 6 points of radiant damage on his mark. The text on the mark says that it compulses the target to attack you, of course this could be said that it is flavor text, and the DM can ignore that...

I'd say it's time to whip out Divine Power and bring on the hurt.

There is a nice heroic feat in there called Mighty Challenge. The prereq for it are be a paladin and have divine challenge power which your pally does. What it does though is when a target takes damage from Divine power it also takes extra radiant damage equal to your STR modifier.

Now assuming the paladin started with 18 STR he should be up to 20 now at level 8. That is an extra 5 damage which is also radiant so it's great vs undead bringing the total damage up to 11. The DM can ignore that as his own risk. :evillaugh

Also at level 11 it increases by another 3 so in paragon tier he will be doing 14-15 damage to any monsters that ignore him.

As others have said though the paladin also has a bit of leader in him which is why another heroic feat from DP could be good for him. Devoted Paladin which let's him add his Cha modifer to the total HP healed from Lay of Hands. And it gives him an extra healing surge per day.

There are some other neat tricks in DP as well. Like a new At-Will that attacks for 1W + MOD and puts divine sanction on the target. Divine sanction is pretty much identical to divine challenge except it's put on by curtain new powers. So if he uses that new at-will on the monster other then the divine challenge to effectively mark 2 monsters each turn.

Or at paragon tier there is a feat called Contagious Challenge. Where if he attacks a monster that has the divine challenge he can place the divine sanction on a monster adjacent to it. Thus effectively marking 2 monsters also.

There are some other interesting choices as well. Though it depends on the build your paladin is going for. But it seems Paladin really got a boost in his defender abilities thanks to DP. But he never was a "bad" defender. Just not as good as fighter because the paladin dabbled in leader abilities like healing.

EDIT: Also by ignoring the paladin the DM is doing automatic damage to his monsters. Automatic damage tends to be smaller because it doesn't factor in a chance to miss. Like if you have a 2d12 attack that breaks down to an average damage roll of 13. Then if you figure it hits 50% of time it will do on average 6.5 damage per round. That is what your DM is choosing to take by ignoring the divine challenge. So the power is a bit stronger then you might think.
#16
reiphil
Jul 24, 2009 11:40:54 Thanks for the many replies guys.

I've taken your advice and worked with the paladin and DM to changing the paladin's feats/power choices around and making him a bit better. For some reason at level 8 he has +11 to hit, where as we adjusted him to have +15 to hit, with +12 damage. So on min, he'll be doing 6.5 every other round (if there is a 50% chance to hit).

The thing about the mark I still don't agree with is that sure, it is flavored to say that the monster is compulsed to attack you... But all silly wotc wordings of paladins say that they are excellent at keeping monsters on you. I don't think that the 6 damage per round is necessarily a big disincentive to attack. (Though we tuned this up to 9 damage a round, making it a bit better)

The paladin before had 25ac. Our strikers (ranger, warlock, sorc) have 21~ ac. So effectively, it's still harder to hit the paladin regardless of the mark. Since the paladin is a cha paladin, enfeebling is the way he goes. putting them now at a -4 to hit other classes, -2 to hit paladin. So effectively this raises the paladin to 27 ac, and the other classes to 25. Still means it is easier to hit the other classes.

We do enjoy the paladin in that slot for lay on hands. But the lay on hands can only carry a party so far before an extended rest. In our last day, the Paladin was out, and the strikers were on their last limbs.

I guess for utility you can't really beat the paladin in his current role, but for straight defenders it would be best to go for something stickier or at least with a bigger disincentive to attack others, such as the warden, fighter, and daresay the swordmage (which is what I play, shielding, -9 to damage!)
#17
ace_of_time
Jul 24, 2009 15:47:50 They are most likely going to bump up that with a feat in the divine book when it comes out.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 reiphil Jul 22, 2009 22:47:16	So our DND group is running the Scales of War campaign, and as a group of 5, we have: Swordmage Paladin Sorceror Warlock Ranger Basically 2 melee, 3 ranged. Usually we do OK, as the DM in general makes things tactical. However, it has come to a point where the DM doesn't necessarily meta game, but weighs the pros and cons of attacking the tanks. With a large fight, let's say 4-5 NPCs, of course we can lock 2 down as defenders, but the other 3 will go straight for clothies. Which in general is fine, it makes the defenders have to work for defending. But now the DM tends to jump past the paladin's divine challenge/sanction. We are average level of 8, ad the paladin only does about 6 points of radiant damage on his mark. The text on the mark says that it compulses the target to attack you, of course this could be said that it is flavor text, and the DM can ignore that... But what can we do as a party if the DM ignores the paladin completely? Is there even a reason to have the paladin anymore? It frustrates us because it feels as though now we have a wasted slot in our party make up. Also - the DM will attack characters that have cover from range, even if the swordmage is standing in plain sight, because the DM knows that the swordmage is wearing a cloak of distortion...
#2 captcommy Jul 22, 2009 22:57:37	The Paladin's mark is far from his most useful ability. Yes, a -2 and free damage is fun, but it's his other powers that make him a good addition. You shouldn't feel he's a wasted slot because Divine Challenge is being ignored.
#3 dragonspirit Jul 22, 2009 23:01:03	Clothies? Yuck, no world of lamecraft talk please. Anyhow, the DM seems to be playing this just fine. The mark and radiant damage are to provide a disincentive for the monsters, not to force them to behave like video game monsters. If the spellcasters are the best target, then that is where the monsters should go. When your character encounter spellcasters, do you ignore their heavily armored warriors or do you force yourself to fight them the way you expect of the DM?
#4 zackblack Jul 22, 2009 23:02:03	He's/She's the DM DM = GOD I suggest talking to your DM about you problems but ultimately his/her decision is final so you have to ether lump it or leave the group.
#5 dark_harrier Jul 22, 2009 23:17:16	You should have a lot of nice things that keep allies from getting smacked around, even if your mark is getting ignored. Even if they do get smacked around, you can use Lay on hands to keep them from using surges (as seems to be a defender's job). Basically, you do have the tools to do your job, it just isn't so much in the mark, though it does help.
#6 gargs454 Jul 22, 2009 23:40:36	Aye, the mark does not force a monster to attack the paladin, it simply suggests that maybe they might want to. Certainly though an intelligent enemy is capable of assessing the penalties associated with attacking somebody else and weighing those against the benefits derived. In other words, despite the -2 and the automatic damage, it is in the enemies best interest to attack the strikers (since they are the ones dealing the most damage). Frankly, in my experience, the paladin tends to be more because of his leader-like abilities than his pure defending abilities. Fighters and Wardens for example can do a much better job of preventing the enemies from attacking their allies, but then they don't have as much of a leader role either. In the end, its a trade off. Given your party makeup, I would say that the paladin is indeed valuable because of the healing he brings to the party.
#7 kouk Jul 23, 2009 6:01:34	But what can we do as a party if the DM ignores the paladin completely? Is there even a reason to have the paladin anymore? It frustrates us because it feels as though now we have a wasted slot in our party make up. You can give the Paladin a bigger weapon to use. Ignoring a mark isn't necessarily tactically sound when he's doing auto damage and also hitting you every round for a not-insignificant sum. Besides the free damage, the -2 attack should at least reduce their ability to hit. But, that is a known issue with the Paladin that they can only effectively deal with one guy at a time, if that many. Also - the DM will attack characters that have cover from range, even if the swordmage is standing in plain sight, because the DM knows that the swordmage is wearing a cloak of distortion... Simple solution here: Switch neck items. Part of being a Defender is usually keeping yourself appearing to be a viable target. If you make yourself nigh-invisible to ranged attacks, you are not a viable target. Why would anybody waste time on a target they can't hit? EDIT: Silly statement from me removed, didn't remember reading a part. EDIT: 3 strikers do of course make it a bit tougher for Defenders to function at all. They are obvious targets for extermination and don't do much to help themselves by piling on damage. Aside from the strikers "using restraint," I would suggest one or more of you switches roles really.
#8 Psikerlord Jul 23, 2009 7:02:36	You might also try having your paladin do more damage. The closer your paladin is to doing strikerish damage, the more dangerous it is to ignore him, in addition to his mark/DC damage. His OA's become dangerous. If they move past him, he can flank and lay down the big damage encounter powers. Make your paladin a serious damage threat and the monsters will be forced to manage him.
#9 rauric Jul 23, 2009 7:12:35	So your group is not all the same level?
#10 inigocarmine Jul 23, 2009 9:19:40	But what can we do as a party if the DM ignores the paladin completely? Is there even a reason to have the paladin anymore? It frustrates us because it feels as though now we have a wasted slot in our party make up. Let me re-iterate / summarize some good comments sprinkled throughout this thread. A Defender's mark isn't supposed to make all enemies automatically pay attention only to him. It sets up a choice for the enemies: -2 to attack and suffer some negative effect...or take no penalties/ill effects and go after the defender (usually a less desirable target). If the enemy chooses to take the penalties associated with the Paladin's mark, the Paladin is having an effect; he's doing auto-damage and giving an attack penalty.
#11 Arbitrary_Aardvark Jul 23, 2009 13:10:01	We are average level of 8, ad the paladin only does about 6 points of radiant damage on his mark. The text on the mark says that it compulses the target to attack you, of course this could be said that it is flavor text, and the DM can ignore that... But what can we do as a party if the DM ignores the paladin completely? Is there even a reason to have the paladin anymore? It frustrates us because it feels as though now we have a wasted slot in our party make up. Also - the DM will attack characters that have cover from range, even if the swordmage is standing in plain sight, because the DM knows that the swordmage is wearing a cloak of distortion... Whats the problem with the paladin's mark? I run a paladin, and in two sessions have only once had a monster take damage from my mark. The mark is doing what it should do, punishing the monster. Unlike the fighter's mark, which can cause massive damage to a creature ignoring it, and cause it's action to fail, the paladin's mark is a little weaker, providing a lesser disincentive (although the paladin makes up for it in other ways, a better AC for instance.) However, think of it this way: 1. By attacking someone else, the monster hits less often. Assuming about a 50% chance for it to hit, you have reduced its damage by 20%. 2. You are automatically inflicting 6 points of damage. This is around half of what you would do with a longsword on a basic attack (if you hit). Considering that you hit about half the time, this is like getting a free basic attack each round. As a DM, I probably wouldn't have an unintelligent creature shift targets, but a smart one, sure.
#12 garner_adam Jul 23, 2009 18:06:58	You can give the Paladin a bigger weapon to use. Part of being a Defender is usually keeping yourself appearing to be a viable target. If you make yourself nigh-invisible to ranged attacks, you are not a viable target. Why would anybody waste time on a target they can't hit? This guy speaks the ultimate truth about defenders. After a few sessions my player's started making their defenders only have 2 more ac than the highest other ac in the party. The advantage? A paladin hits an enemy with enfeebling strike. -2 to attacks which is now -4 if he attacks some one else. Pretty much the enemy gets to choose. Attack the other guy with now the same ac as the paladin and risk an attack of opportunity and mark damage or just attack the paladin.
#13 ace_of_time Jul 23, 2009 18:17:14	You have to start giving the DM a reason to go after the paladine first. Take advantage to the fact that he isn't attacking that PC. Make the PC a charger?
#14 CCS Jul 24, 2009 2:06:50	If you want a simple mechanical solution, especially concerning the swordmage, try this; The shooters make a normal save. Failure means they take the bait & try & tag the SM. Success means they can shoot as they please. Could also work vrs the paladin if you want to invoke the fluff of his power. We've used this general mechinc for years in various systems. (Edit: I have no idea what the swordmages cloak does.) Other than this my real advice is to stop dwelling on this. Especially the paladin "wasting" a slot in the party. Despite the terrible similarities to full on miniture wargames 4e has, your still playing D&D the RPG. So try telling stories about the characters you've rolled up & not just about thier powers.
#15 pyromancer2k Jul 24, 2009 8:06:34	We are average level of 8, ad the paladin only does about 6 points of radiant damage on his mark. The text on the mark says that it compulses the target to attack you, of course this could be said that it is flavor text, and the DM can ignore that... I'd say it's time to whip out Divine Power and bring on the hurt. There is a nice heroic feat in there called Mighty Challenge. The prereq for it are be a paladin and have divine challenge power which your pally does. What it does though is when a target takes damage from Divine power it also takes extra radiant damage equal to your STR modifier. Now assuming the paladin started with 18 STR he should be up to 20 now at level 8. That is an extra 5 damage which is also radiant so it's great vs undead bringing the total damage up to 11. The DM can ignore that as his own risk. :evillaugh Also at level 11 it increases by another 3 so in paragon tier he will be doing 14-15 damage to any monsters that ignore him. As others have said though the paladin also has a bit of leader in him which is why another heroic feat from DP could be good for him. Devoted Paladin which let's him add his Cha modifer to the total HP healed from Lay of Hands. And it gives him an extra healing surge per day. There are some other neat tricks in DP as well. Like a new At-Will that attacks for 1W + MOD and puts divine sanction on the target. Divine sanction is pretty much identical to divine challenge except it's put on by curtain new powers. So if he uses that new at-will on the monster other then the divine challenge to effectively mark 2 monsters each turn. Or at paragon tier there is a feat called Contagious Challenge. Where if he attacks a monster that has the divine challenge he can place the divine sanction on a monster adjacent to it. Thus effectively marking 2 monsters also. There are some other interesting choices as well. Though it depends on the build your paladin is going for. But it seems Paladin really got a boost in his defender abilities thanks to DP. But he never was a "bad" defender. Just not as good as fighter because the paladin dabbled in leader abilities like healing. EDIT: Also by ignoring the paladin the DM is doing automatic damage to his monsters. Automatic damage tends to be smaller because it doesn't factor in a chance to miss. Like if you have a 2d12 attack that breaks down to an average damage roll of 13. Then if you figure it hits 50% of time it will do on average 6.5 damage per round. That is what your DM is choosing to take by ignoring the divine challenge. So the power is a bit stronger then you might think.
#16 reiphil Jul 24, 2009 11:40:54	Thanks for the many replies guys. I've taken your advice and worked with the paladin and DM to changing the paladin's feats/power choices around and making him a bit better. For some reason at level 8 he has +11 to hit, where as we adjusted him to have +15 to hit, with +12 damage. So on min, he'll be doing 6.5 every other round (if there is a 50% chance to hit). The thing about the mark I still don't agree with is that sure, it is flavored to say that the monster is compulsed to attack you... But all silly wotc wordings of paladins say that they are excellent at keeping monsters on you. I don't think that the 6 damage per round is necessarily a big disincentive to attack. (Though we tuned this up to 9 damage a round, making it a bit better) The paladin before had 25ac. Our strikers (ranger, warlock, sorc) have 21~ ac. So effectively, it's still harder to hit the paladin regardless of the mark. Since the paladin is a cha paladin, enfeebling is the way he goes. putting them now at a -4 to hit other classes, -2 to hit paladin. So effectively this raises the paladin to 27 ac, and the other classes to 25. Still means it is easier to hit the other classes. We do enjoy the paladin in that slot for lay on hands. But the lay on hands can only carry a party so far before an extended rest. In our last day, the Paladin was out, and the strikers were on their last limbs. I guess for utility you can't really beat the paladin in his current role, but for straight defenders it would be best to go for something stickier or at least with a bigger disincentive to attack others, such as the warden, fighter, and daresay the swordmage (which is what I play, shielding, -9 to damage!)
#17 ace_of_time Jul 24, 2009 15:47:50	They are most likely going to bump up that with a feat in the divine book when it comes out.