Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 hboss52 Oct 11, 2008 19:24:27	I'm pretty sure that this has been asked before but unless I post here my DM refuses to make up his own mind. I'd like someone to help me out with a magic item that my DM has deemed completely broken. Magic item of Expeditious retreat. The +30 movement speed. Which if I read the book correctly the estimate is: Spell Lvl * Caster Lvl * 2000gp (x2 if its a min/lvl spell) (1 x 1 x 2000)*2 = 4000 He heard the price and deemed the item broken and somehow ended up with the conclusion that he couldn't make his own mind up and wanted me to get the opinion of this board. Opinions please and apparently I can't actually use anyone's opinion to help unless they have some kind of crown or some odd crap. Something about purple posts or something...I think he's a bit too far into WoW for help. Thanks, HBoss
#2 eldritch_lord Oct 11, 2008 19:37:47	That's exactly the right price for that item. If he wants to, he can increase the price if he thinks it's overpowered, but that's what the price should be. Remind him that those are only guidelines, and that he can always make the price higher.
#3 drmorganes Oct 11, 2008 20:07:01	Some magic items are far more useful - and therefore expensive - than these guidelines suggest. (c.f., Ring of True Shot) Rather than simply applying the formula, I would encourage your DM to look at other, similar magic items and compare their prices to what has been suggested. For example, Boots of Skating are based off the Level 1 psionic power Skate - but cost 7000gp for half the movement increase. (NOTE: The effects of Boots of Skating were amended in the Magic Item Compendium, and reduced to a 10' enhancement - for the same cost!). Following the standard wealth-by-level guidelines, this tags Boots of Skating as appropriate for Level 7+ characters. Boots of Speed grant 10 rounds of Haste per day for 12k (Level 8+ characters). Haste is superior to a simple movement rate increase, which accounts for the limited duration per day. Given all of this, I'd say a continuous-use pair of Swiftstep Boots (or whatever else you'd like to call 'em) granting an always-on +30' enhancement bonus to speed should probably run between 10k and 14k, making them a nice addition to PCs Level 8 or 9 and up.
#4 skyodin Oct 11, 2008 20:14:13	Yeah, the original magic item formula just gives the illusion of balance. Comparing the intended effect to items in the Magic Item Compendium is a better bet.
#5 salla Oct 11, 2008 22:11:31	That formula would probably work if it operated like casting the spell; you use a standard action to activate the boots, then they function precisely as if a 1st level caster had cast Expeditious Retreat. If you want a flat +30 speed bonus, it should be much, MUCH higher.
#6 Neutronium_Dragon Oct 11, 2008 23:18:21	That formula generally doesn't work. In particular, static, numeric bonuses always follow the square progression, not the "spell effect" one. This is an item that provides a +30' speed boost. As it happens, you can reverse engineer the cost: Boots of Striding and Springing cost 5500 GP and add +10' movement and +5 Jump. Cost: 2500 (+5 Jump), + 3000 (2000 for +10' speed, x1.5 as a secondary property). So +10' speed is 2000 GP. That means that +20' speed is 8000 GP and +30' speed is 18000 GP. The Magic Item Compendium goes further, more or less saying that you should throw those formulas out the window (because they're beyond repair) and compare the price to other items that people actually use - not just to similar items, and not to all items, but only to ones that actually see use (because many items are horridly overpriced for what they do). +4 Bracers of Armor are 16,000 GP. A +3 weapon is 18000 GP. +4 Gloves of Dexterity are 16000 GP. And so on. If you had 18,000 gold to burn, and the choice between buying one of those or buying the Boots of +30' Land Speed for 18,000 GP, and all of the options would be equally useful to you - which one would you go for? Is it a sure thing every time, or is it actually a tough choice as to which you'd take? If it's a tough choice then the price is about where it should be. If not, it needs to be adjusted so that it is, whether that means up or down.
#7 Senevri Oct 12, 2008 20:06:35	Magic item of Expeditious retreat. The +30 movement speed. Which if I read the book correctly the estimate is: Spell Lvl * Caster Lvl * 2000gp (x2 if its a min/lvl spell) (1 x 1 x 2000)*2 = 4000 That is indeed the correct price for a 5/day 1 min expeditious retreat spell. Probably taking a standard action to activate.
#8 Tectorman Oct 13, 2008 10:26:31	Yeah, the original magic item formula just gives the illusion of balance. Comparing the intended effect to items in the Magic Item Compendium is a better bet. Just to confirm this statement, we had a guy in one campaign (began at level 6) and through a combination of (I think) the Wood Elf race, the Dark template (ToM), levels in Rogue, and several items granting different (read: stackable) bonuses to his Stealth skills, he had a +55 modifier to his Hide skill! And this is before the d20! Hide +55. He could reliably use the Epic usage of this skill at level 6. I've never read the MIC, but I completely agree that the item creation guidelines ain't to be trusted.
#9 CCS Oct 13, 2008 20:28:33	My opinion? He doesn't need any of our opinions. He's the DM. All he needs to act like it - IE; read the relevant pages concerning making magic items, do the math, then decide wether he wants to use the "official way" or further modify the cost. The beuty of it is; Any answer he arrives at will be the correct one - because he's the DM.
#10 hboss52 Oct 14, 2008 16:20:24	My opinion? He doesn't need any of our opinions. He's the DM. All he needs to act like it - IE; read the relevant pages concerning making magic items, do the math, then decide wether he wants to use the "official way" or further modify the cost. The beuty of it is; Any answer he arrives at will be the correct one - because he's the DM. Wow someone else who thinks so. That and hoping he doesn't say "broken" and ban said item. He did come to the decision that I could make it for the formula price but had to find a wizard to do so. So currently we're in the middle of a long quest so that won't be for a while now. I'm guessing that "the wizard" I have to find is going to charge me more but what the hell. Thanks for the input. Later, HBoss
#11 salla Oct 14, 2008 17:51:56	The beuty of it is; Any answer he arrives at will be the correct one - because he's the DM. Well, no. He most certainly can be wrong. He can make a +5 vorpal sword cost 50 gp. He has that power, but it's absolutely wrong in doing so. DMs are not always right, but what they say goes.
#12 tafkamhokie Oct 17, 2008 18:05:21	That formula generally doesn't work. In particular, static, numeric bonuses always follow the square progression, not the "spell effect" one. This is an item that provides a +30' speed boost. As it happens, you can reverse engineer the cost: Boots of Striding and Springing cost 5500 GP and add +10' movement and +5 Jump. Cost: 2500 (+5 Jump), + 3000 (2000 for +10' speed, x1.5 as a secondary property). So +10' speed is 2000 GP. That means that +20' speed is 8000 GP and +30' speed is 18000 GP. The Magic Item Compendium goes further, more or less saying that you should throw those formulas out the window (because they're beyond repair) and compare the price to other items that people actually use - not just to similar items, and not to all items, but only to ones that actually see use (because many items are horridly overpriced for what they do). +4 Bracers of Armor are 16,000 GP. A +3 weapon is 18000 GP. +4 Gloves of Dexterity are 16000 GP. And so on. If you had 18,000 gold to burn, and the choice between buying one of those or buying the Boots of +30' Land Speed for 18,000 GP, and all of the options would be equally useful to you - which one would you go for? Is it a sure thing every time, or is it actually a tough choice as to which you'd take? If it's a tough choice then the price is about where it should be. If not, it needs to be adjusted so that it is, whether that means up or down. In terms of answering the question "what should this item cost," this answer is the correct one...i.e. you price it by utility, not by the spell level formula in the DMG. As a more qualitative answer, I had a DM who allowed me to create boots of ER for 4,000 gp. I was a spring-attacking gish in that game. With that one item, I almost broke his game. In the hands (or I guess I should say on the feet) of the right character, those are a disgustingly powerful magic item. Based on utility, they should be worth something much closer to 20,000 gp than 4,000 gp.
#13 kukamunga Oct 20, 2008 13:16:32	Well, no. He most certainly can be wrong. He can make a +5 vorpal sword cost 50 gp. He has that power, but it's absolutely wrong in doing so. DMs are not always right, but what they say goes. How can that prove that a DM can be wrong.. you dont know anything about the system of his world What if in his world a Vorpal sword means it is crafted by the lowly Vorpalian Traders. And the market is flooded with these swords because of a large order made by the crown that went south now a mostly finished stock is being sold off at less than market price because the crafters are just trying to cut their losses.
#14 sunday_afternoon Oct 21, 2008 6:46:37	How can that prove that a DM can be wrong.. you dont know anything about the system of his world What if in his world a Vorpal sword means it is crafted by the lowly Vorpalian Traders. And the market is flooded with these swords because of a large order made by the crown that went south now a mostly finished stock is being sold off at less than market price because the crafters are just trying to cut their losses. You're right, we're making very basic assumptions about the DM's game world. For all we know, in his game the sky could be purple, humans could get +50 to every stat, and dragons could look like kittens. We definitely shouldn't make any reasonable assumptions about his campaign world in an effort to expedite the Q and A process, hoping the advice-seekers will ignore any replies that are irrelevant due to campaign specific information(read: Vorpalian Armorers Free Trade Association). Wait, no. We should.
#15 aberzanzorax Oct 21, 2008 8:28:36	That formula generally doesn't work. In particular, static, numeric bonuses always follow the square progression, not the "spell effect" one. This is an item that provides a +30' speed boost. As it happens, you can reverse engineer the cost: Boots of Striding and Springing cost 5500 GP and add +10' movement and +5 Jump. Cost: 2500 (+5 Jump), + 3000 (2000 for +10' speed, x1.5 as a secondary property). So +10' speed is 2000 GP. That means that +20' speed is 8000 GP and +30' speed is 18000 GP. The Magic Item Compendium goes further, more or less saying that you should throw those formulas out the window (because they're beyond repair) and compare the price to other items that people actually use - not just to similar items, and not to all items, but only to ones that actually see use (because many items are horridly overpriced for what they do). +4 Bracers of Armor are 16,000 GP. A +3 weapon is 18000 GP. +4 Gloves of Dexterity are 16000 GP. And so on. If you had 18,000 gold to burn, and the choice between buying one of those or buying the Boots of +30' Land Speed for 18,000 GP, and all of the options would be equally useful to you - which one would you go for? Is it a sure thing every time, or is it actually a tough choice as to which you'd take? If it's a tough choice then the price is about where it should be. If not, it needs to be adjusted so that it is, whether that means up or down. THIS +1 Well done N.D.