Sorry for the wall of text in advance but I felt it needed to be typed.
I recently started playing a PC again after a hiatus of many years. I picked up the 4e rules and joined a campaign that a relative of mine DM's. I used to play and DM D&D from 1980 until around 2002.
Ok with that said I have not played under many DM's and I am wondering if my relatives DM style is unusual or not. I am leaning toward thinking it is highly unusual. However I wanted to hear from this community; so that I am not being close minded.
Setting the Stage...
We started the adventure at level 4. Our play sessions are about 4 hours long. We have had 4 small 1 monster encouters so far, about 1 per session. The setting is a city adventure and the quest is a palace jail break. We have had 4 play sessions and we are now level 9.
What has happened so far...
The group deicded that the best way to do the jail break was form the inside. So in order to join the palace guards we must be the winners or the finalists in a tournament that consisted of 3 challenges. The group won the tournament and there was a feast and ball for the winners. Then we were accepted into the palace guards after we passed a hazing ceremony.
During all of this time and exploring the city in during downtime, (which there is a lot; the tournament lasted 3 days and the feast 2 days) we were given another 8 sub quests that we have not had time to look into.
Now before we were trusted enough to be allowed access to the jail we must work our way up the guard ranks by doing various missions.
The guard in charge of us sent us to guard duty that the city gate our goal was to look out for a smuggler carrying an illegal substance. We catch the smuggler but as it turns out the smuggler actually didn't turn out to be a smuggler but one of the Kings personal assistants who when question about the illegal substance ends up attacking us. Once we bloodied him he surrendered.
I placed him under arrest for attacking a Palace guard without provocation. Then one of the party members was going to send for the Captain of the guard and this is when things start to break down.
First of all DM says "well you don't know the Captains name because you never asked him." So now this is when I flip out. I mean the Captain of the guard gave us the mission yet I never caught his name? I feel like if I forget to tell him that my character ate or bathed that I will be stricken with hunger or a plaque. It's these little under-handed details I feel he uses to bash the party with from time to time.
So my questions to the community is...
1. Is it normal to go up 5 levels and only fight 5 monsters/npcs?
2. Is it normal to go up 5 levels in 4 sessions?
3. Is it normal to have a campaign so heavy on RP and very little combat?
I feel like my relative has never played an official campaign before and that he has hardly any idea of what he is doing. He hands out levels at the end of each session but there is no loot to be had and no combat to make the levels actually useful.
This sounds like most of the other problems I see between DMs and players, and it always boils down to disclosure and communication. You have a perception of what a game is supposed to entail, and he has a perception of what you should find enjoyable. The fact that neither of you disclosed any of this beforehand is the source of your current woes. Whenever I play with a new DM or bring in new characters I always discuss what they/I can expect and sit in on a session, or in the case of me DMing have the players watch a session that I run to get the general feel of how things work.
Nothing really strikes me as out of the ordinary, though the suggestion that you don't know the name of a superior officer whom you work with is a little cheesy to me. Pulling that kind of crap is sometimes symptomatic of a DM who sees it as Me vs. The Party, instead of seeing himself as a Narrator of the parties adventure.
Nothing really strikes me as out of the ordinary, though the suggestion that you don't know the name of a superior officer whom you work with is a little cheesy to me. Pulling that kind of crap is sometimes symptomatic of a DM who sees it as Me vs. The Party, instead of seeing himself as a Narrator of the parties adventure.
I have been feeling in the last few sessions that he thinks it is his job to make the group miserable or impede their progress at all times. We have spent 16 hours playing and are no closer to the goal than we were when we started.
But thank you for your post I will keep an open mind about other play styles. I am use to Official campaigns that seem to about 50/50 when it comes to combat / RP.
Yea, it sounds like either he has no idea as to what he is doing, or he isn't playing 4th edition D&D, but rather some bizarre homebrew game.
Is everyone else in the group ok with this?
Whoa.. nothing out of the oridnary? Going up 5 levels after fighting 5 encounters?
Yea, it sounds like either he has no idea as to what he is doing, or he isn't playing 4th edition D&D, but rather some bizarre homebrew game.
Is everyone else in the group ok with this?
Ya it is his own homebrew campaign. He DM's for my 2 nephews and a few of their friends. They have been playing for about 10 years off and on together.
I really think that he has never played an official campaign before, but I don't know how to approach it without causing friction because I coem across a bit harsh sometimes.
It does sound like he might be new to DMing, or is just used to DMing with a more unique playstyle then most other D&D players. 5 levels in 4 sessions is a pretty big XP leap, especially since you're not even starting at level 1. Not knowing the name of the guard captain sounds a bit like an asspull designed to keep you from bringing the bloodied enemy in...maybe he expected you to kill him?
I think he really likes the RP aspect more than anything else.
As far as the bloodied smuggler / King's assistant goes; I think he intends to use him later for a side plot of revenge or something. Because he kept asking for our names until I dropped kicked him in the head with my fighter and knocked him out.
Start off by writing down a list of the things you like about the game and what the DM does. Keep your points consice and clear. I'd suggest when you talk to him you start off with what you enjoy and thank him for being willing to run the game for you. (I hope there's at least something you like, because if there's no redeeming qualities, just quit.)
Next write down what you'd like to see changed. Phrase your requests in the form of what you want rather than what he's doing wrong. For example these two sentence say the same thing but I'm sure you can see the difference:
I think you need to add more combat encounters.
I'd like to see us have some more combat encounters.
Again, when you talk to him, keep your points short and I'd recommend sticking to 3 or 4 things that you'd like to see change. If you show up with a list of 20 bullet points, it's going to be overwhelming for you and him.
As for leveling, yes, leveling that fast is a bit much, especially when you have so little opportunity to learn your new powers/feats as you level up. Keep in mind that there are more ways than combat to gain xp however, and that leveling through RP is just a valid as leveling through combat. I do agree with you that there should be some more balance between the two in your games, especially if that's what the players want.
I would also recommend that you find out what the other players want as well. If you are the odd man out in wanting things to change, you might find yourself alienating the other players if you push for changes to the game as it is now.
So my questions to the community is...1. Is it normal to go up 5 levels and only fight 5 monsters/npcs?
2. Is it normal to go up 5 levels in 4 sessions?
Nope. Following the guidelines in the DMG, players should complete approximately 10 encounters per level (using a standard encounter mix). Mind you this includes non-combat encounters like skill challenges (although generally not full-RP encounters). A typical combat encounter might last anywhere from 45 minutes to a couple hours, depending on the encounter level, player skill (rules knowledge, preparedness), and overall complexity.
On the other hand, your DM may be using the "level up when the story calls for it", in which case, there's nothing inherently wrong with what's going on. As a player, he may just get bored when you go too long without leveling up (although I can't imagine a single encounter is "too long"), so he's just distributing levels like candy as a DM.
That said, you should probably also be experiencing encounters that aren't simply solo-bashing. Your DM seems to be operating inside some sort of self-imposed limitations on encounter design. It might be that he likes the "party vs. dragon" concept and busts out the encounters accordingly. So long as it is fun for everyone, great! Otherwise, you owe it to yourself, the DM, and the rest of the players to speak up (privately, that is) if you're not having fun.
So my questions to the community is...
1. Is it normal to go up 5 levels and only fight 5 monsters/npcs?
2. Is it normal to go up 5 levels in 4 sessions?
So you've played before (although different editions?) & have presumably read the rules for the edition you're playing.
What do you think....
3. Is it normal to have a campaign so heavy on RP and very little combat?
Well, the name of the game is Dungeons & Dragons.... So this style, while existing, isn't the most commonly used..... Still, these types of games can be fun.
The name thing though (rolls eyes).... About the best you can do here is
A) LEARN from this & ask detail oriented questions in future sessions.
B) Play it off as having forgotten/not caught it. Afterall, your the new hire. Maybe you were introduced to enough people that you lost (of all things!) the captains name in the barrage of names, tournies, feasts, etc.
And what are these "official" campaigns you keep talking about. Do you mean RPGA run stuff? Published modules? Something else? What?
So my questions to the community is...
1. Is it normal to go up 5 levels and only fight 5 monsters/npcs?
2. Is it normal to go up 5 levels in 4 sessions?
So you've played before (although different editions?) & have presumably read the rules for the edition you're playing.
What do you think....
3. Is it normal to have a campaign so heavy on RP and very little combat?
Well, the name of the game is Dungeons & Dragons.... So this style, while existing, isn't the most commonly used..... Still, these types of games can be fun.
The name thing though (rolls eyes).... About the best you can do here is
A) LEARN from this & ask detail oriented questions in future sessions.
B) Play it off as having forgotten/not caught it. Afterall, your the new hire. Maybe you were introduced to enough people that you lost (of all things!) the captains name in the barrage of names, tournies, feasts, etc.
And what are these "official" campaigns you keep talking about. Do you mean RPGA run stuff? Published modules? Something else? What?
Published WoC modules.
I have DM'd older stuff and am still new to 4E. My relatives style is a bit unusual to me but there are some really fun parts as well.
Thanks everyone for all the good input.
But yes, the general rule in DM guide is 10 encounters per level. Encounters dont necessarily have to be combat, it could be a tough skill challenge or a great roleplaying session.
Regarding the level'ing real fast, its possible he made the same mistake (but I only made it once) of FORGETTING to DIVIDE the encounter EXP by the number of players
But yes, the general rule in DM guide is 10 encounters per level. Encounters dont necessarily have to be combat, it could be a tough skill challenge or a great roleplaying session.
Ok this makes more sense to me because we have been doing skill challenges like crazy.
As far as the captains name thing I think it might be more of aplot twist later on but the last session went a lot smoother than the one I described in my OP.
Regarding the level'ing real fast, its possible he made the same mistake (but I only made it once) of FORGETTING to DIVIDE the encounter EXP by the number of players
But yes, the general rule in DM guide is 10 encounters per level. Encounters dont necessarily have to be combat, it could be a tough skill challenge or a great roleplaying session.
Ok this makes more sense to me because we have been doing skill challenges like crazy.
As far as the captains name thing I think it might be more of aplot twist later on but the last session went a lot smoother than the one I described in my OP.
My response to the captain's name thing would have been the guard knows who his boss is even if I don't =p
Regarding the level'ing real fast, its possible he made the same mistake (but I only made it once) of FORGETTING to DIVIDE the encounter EXP by the number of players
But yes, the general rule in DM guide is 10 encounters per level. Encounters dont necessarily have to be combat, it could be a tough skill challenge or a great roleplaying session.
Ok this makes more sense to me because we have been doing skill challenges like crazy.
As far as the captains name thing I think it might be more of aplot twist later on but the last session went a lot smoother than the one I described in my OP.
My guess would be he had expected/intended your group to talk more with the guard boss when he was initially introduced. I've seen the same thing happen in the past when a party doesn't act in the manner expected, or possibly fails to make the RP effort the GM wants/intends, the GM can get a bit snippy about things they had intended to come up during the RP encounter.
I had a similliar experience from the other side of the screen a few months back, when my SW Saga players were supposed to be investigating a theft of a necklace. None of the characters asked for a description and it just seemed like such a huge oversight it really annoyed me. Though, to be fair, they are a huge hack and slash bunch so I should have expected it.
I didn't hold it against them in game though. When someone asked their characters what the necklace looked liked, I did provide the details then. Though I seem to recall a few snide comments were included in the belated description.
Another option is to ask if you can DM a session yourself, nothing is as useful as a good example.
Or buy him a premade adventure, if he chooses to run it he gets to see what a good adventure should look like. Even if he just reads it he might pick up a few things about adventure writing.
Another nice thing would be to show him this forum, he could pick up a lot of good things here and might be more comfortable asking questions when its people he doesn't know.
There is a chance however slight that he doesn't have the DMG and MM. From what you have already written it seems that you haven't fought anything (unless the tournament included monsters) that couldn't be generated from the PHB, I actually played with a guy who was new to the game and had gotten the PHB for his B-day and was trying to run a campaign out of it. If he doesn't have them then that would make a great B-day/Christmas/I just felt like it present.
Or buy him a premade adventure, if he chooses to run it he gets to see what a good adventure should look like. Even if he just reads it he might pick up a few things about adventure writing.
Before doing this, ask for advice on which one to buy. I hear some of them are, shall we say, rather less well done than they ought to be.
(I've never played any of them, so I won't offer any specifics.)
There is a chance however slight that he doesn't have the DMG and MM.
DMG1 very strongly recommended. In fact, if you guys were to decide right now to abandon D&D and start playing some other gaming system entirely, with a different and more experienced DM, I would still recommend DMG1. It's that good in terms of teaching the DM how to run a game.
I've run AD&D, Rifts, World of Darkness, Floating Vagabond, and Orcs, and read a few others, and played all of those and several others with over a dozen DMs. I don't claim to be the best DM in the world, or the most experienced, but I am definitely not clueless. And I learned from DMG1.
DMG2 is, I think, less useful for games other than D&D. But it has a lot of stuff that is good for D&D, as a supplement to DMG1.
Now as for the campaign... you are leveling rather fast, it's tough to get through ten meaningful encounters a session. Although it's probably faster if few of them are combat. And while low-combat D&D is unusual, there is nothing wrong with it and it can be lots of fun for those who are inclined that way.
The campaign I'm currently in has been pretty low combat. In fact, we went through Shanghai past a casino owned by the same company whose casino in Chang'an we trashed, sailed across pirate-infested seas to Hiroshima, traveled up Japan to a mountain north of Kyoto, picked up a very important document that is being sought by at least one hostile entity, traveled back south, learned that a couple of warlords near Kyoto are basically having a near-war, helped a yakuza commander's daughter-in-law escape from him, got past the trouble in Kyoto, and are now almost back in Hiroshima - with no combat so far.
Also we had no combat at all while we were level 2. But we still had ten identifiable encounters, and it took us a few four-hour sessions.