DM/PC issues..... - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

DM/PC issues.....

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
akguardian777
Jun 17, 2009 9:31:30 Okay, a little background before we get started. My group has only recently started playing, and we've been working towards this point for quite some time. The group sees me as the most proficient when it comes to both creativity and to rules interpretation and/or knowledge of the rules, but one of the other players (currently the DM) agreed to do the work required for the DM, so we agreed that he should do it, since the rest of us didn't have time. Well, since then, the DM has made several decisions that have left the group wondering if we should continue playing; we all love the game, it's just that our DM isn't the best choice. A house rule that says that if you kill a monster and drop it to -10 HP it stuns the enemies around it for a round isn't fun for anyone but a DM who loves to throw status effects around and make the game easy. We had basically agreed to put up with the DM's eccentricities up until recently. The DM wasn't able to make it to an impromptu game I pulled a couple of the lads in for, so we decided that since it was just 3 of us, perhaps it would be best for one of us to DMPC. I volunteered, and we all had the most fun we've had since we've started. No strange house-rules, no Wands of Railroading, just a straight-up game that we all enjoyed. Now, the lads asked me, straight-up, not to let our DM DM for us again. Considering that he has a problem with taking things personally, and he's new to DM'ing, I think this is a cold decision to have pushed on me like this, but I'm afraid the whole group might grow tired of his Hitchhiker's Guide references and Wand of Railroading and leave.

If you have any advice as to what I should do in this situation, I would appreciate any input.
#2
mock26
Jun 17, 2009 9:44:28
Okay, a little background before we get started. My group has only recently started playing, and we've been working towards this point for quite some time. The group sees me as the most proficient when it comes to both creativity and to rules interpretation and/or knowledge of the rules, but one of the other players (currently the DM) agreed to do the work required for the DM, so we agreed that he should do it, since the rest of us didn't have time. Well, since then, the DM has made several decisions that have left the group wondering if we should continue playing; we all love the game, it's just that our DM isn't the best choice. A house rule that says that if you kill a monster and drop it to -10 HP it stuns the enemies around it for a round isn't fun for anyone but a DM who loves to throw status effects around and make the game easy. We had basically agreed to put up with the DM's eccentricities up until recently. The DM wasn't able to make it to an impromptu game I pulled a couple of the lads in for, so we decided that since it was just 3 of us, perhaps it would be best for one of us to DMPC. I volunteered, and we all had the most fun we've had since we've started. No strange house-rules, no Wands of Railroading, just a straight-up game that we all enjoyed. Now, the lads asked me, straight-up, not to let our DM DM for us again. Considering that he has a problem with taking things personally, and he's new to DM'ing, I think this is a cold decision to have pushed on me like this, but I'm afraid the whole group might grow tired of his Hitchhiker's Guide references and Wand of Railroading and leave.

If you have any advice as to what I should do in this situation, I would appreciate any input.

If you want to do nothing but on-shot adventures that have no impact on other adventures, then that is all well and good. But, before you are overly harsh on your DM try your hand at running an ongoing campaign for a while. It is not as easy as running a one-shot adventure. What type of a campaign did you want? Did you want a long-term campaign with a BBEG and a series of linked adventures? Or did you just want someone to DM you through a free-from campaign? If he is new to DMing then chances are he will not have on hand a lot of adventures to pick and choose from, and if you guys just want to run around and do stuff on the spur of the moment he will not be prepared for it. If he is new he also probably does not have the skills to make it up as he goes along. So, he is resorting to railroading to get you guys into the adventures that he does have planned. Talk to him about this. Let him know what you expect in regards to adventures. And if you guys want to randomly do whatever you want you need to give him as much advance notice as possible to prepare for an adventure. If, on game day, you guys suddenly decide to go hunt orcs and if he does not have an adventure prepared for that then what do you expect him to do? Some would say that he should have an adventure ready, but that is easier said than done. As for railroading, I suspect you would not mind it so much if he was a better DM. I have found that DM nudging us down the railroad tracks to keep us going on a great campaign arc is no big deal, so long as the adventures are fun. He might just need time to get better.

Now, if all of you are agreed that the DM is not working out then just tell him. Yes, his feelings might be hurt, but you need to do what you need to do. If you dislike playing with him as your DM more than you like playing with him then you should not be playing with him as your DM. If you decide to ask him to step down be sure to ask him to stay on as a player! If you do not then it is more likely he will leave. But, before you ask him to step down maybe you should try talking to him about what you do not enjoy about his DMing. Maybe he can change. Maybe he needs some help with some of the work load (the workload for a campiagn DM can be more than some people can handle). Maybe he needs regular breaks (as in one week off for every 3 weeks he DMs) where someone can run a one-shot game or even play another game. But you will not know unless you talk to him.

And when you do talk to him, DO IT AS A GROUP. Your so-called friends leave a lot to be desired by dumping this on your lap. Not only is it a crappy thing to do to you, but it is also quite cowardly. If your DM takes it badly they will be there, behind you (figuratively), pointing their fingers at you to take all the blame. Tell your cowardly "friends" that you all do it as a group or that you will not be their hatchetman/fall guy.
#3
trentl
Jun 17, 2009 9:56:29 Is he someone who you can take aside privately and talk about just playing the game as it was meant to play?

As a newb DM myself, I fall pray to railroading at times, and as an experienced player (20 years under my belt) I know its frustrating, but at the same time I know with new DM's that if you deviate from what they have planned the adventure can putter off and die.

But then again I don't mind being railroaded for a decent adventure, I do hate house rules though (Especially ones that crop up that nobody knew about )

Hopefully he'll understand and want to play the game the way it was intended (Easy on the house rules) or you could try something we used sometimes to get a new DM out, the "Hey I had this really cool Idea for a one shot adventure, is it okay if I run it this weekend? And we'll continue back with yours the weekend after.

Hopefully after he see's the affect of no house rules and a bit more open ended he'll enjoy being a player
#4
gr8tyrant
Jun 17, 2009 9:59:19 I agree. Being honest with him is the only way to make it work. When I DM, if my players aren't having fun than neither am I normally, so he may be just as unenthusiastic with the game as you all are. Also, if you have been voted DM, there is not much he can do about it. You need players for a game. Be nice about it and thank him for his time.

Another suggestion to make it a little easier to take. You could start doing a round robin DM sessino and have the party vote at the end. if it is you than great, if not than whatever, but this way it is a group decision.

Either way someone has to talk to the DM.
#5
Draco_Whitewind
Jun 17, 2009 20:55:43 there is no real excuse for railroading you to the point of boredom and being ****** off, and he should know that :-p seriously, if you explain it I don't think he'd be too devastated.
#6
pyromancer2k
Jun 17, 2009 20:59:44 I think the general rule for all games should be no house rules if your an inexperienced DM. First off the DM is not that familiar with the system at least from the DMs point of view so it is never a good idea to go changing rules on a system you don't know that well.

Also the DM has enough to worry about without having to worry about all the potential implications of a house rule. And make this clear to new DMs that the role of the DM is to use the rules and tools available to create adventures for the players and NOT to create new rules and mechanics for the game, which is the job of the DEVELOPERS!

New DMs should focus on story, encounters, and NPCs. Once they get fairly well established and comfortable with that. Then they still shouldn't house rule unless it's new content based such as races, classes, items, and etc. Because adding stuff is fine but changing fundamentals of the system throws the balance completely out of whack.

In closing I'm not saying DM's can't make new rules and add new mechanics to the game but rather it's something that should be left up to experienced DMs who know the system quite well already.
#7
akguardian777
Jun 23, 2009 19:42:42 All right, we've come up with a bit of a compromise; the DM bought DM'ing 4th Edition for Dummies, and he's playing as a PC for a while, to gain experience from the other side of the screen. This has been deemed acceptable by the players who wanted change, and he's not bitter about the change. Thank you all for your input and advice.
#8
Man_in_the_Funny_Hat
Jun 24, 2009 9:47:52
We had basically agreed to put up with the DM's eccentricities up until recently.

Presumably your DM is actually **** sapiens - a real, live human. If so that means he does NOT have ESP. He will never alter his approach or improve his decision-making if you do not TELL HIM YOU DON'T LIKE IT. It isn't hard to do:

"X, we should have told you this sooner but we just DO NOT LIKE some of your house rules and we feel we'd have much more fun if we could play without rules a, b, and c. Also, we feel awfully railroaded, as if our PC's have no choice but to undertake whatever adventure you throw at us. Having at least the ILLUSION of choice makes a big difference."

Considering that he has a problem with taking things personally, and he's new to DM'ing, I think this is a cold decision to have pushed on me like this, but I'm afraid the whole group might grow tired of his Hitchhiker's Guide references and Wand of Railroading and leave.

So your choices as you see them are to waste EVERYONE's time silently waiting for that game to die a horrible death, or to suddenly quit without even the courtesy of an explanation and, what? Continue the new game you started and not invite him even as a player?

If you have any advice as to what I should do in this situation, I would appreciate any input.

COMMUNICATE with him. TELL him what you think and why. You owe him that much as a friend if nothing else. If he's not intentionally being a jerk, if he's earnestly trying to provide the best game he can but YOU'RE NOT TELLING HIM YOU'RE NOT ENJOYING IT, then as a basic courtesy as a player in his game you owe him an explanation. Now you may not be able to control his reaction to your opinion, but if you talk politely and calmly about it then unless he has definite psychological problems he should be able to deal with it.
#9
ravenharm
Jun 26, 2009 11:51:44
All right, we've come up with a bit of a compromise; the DM bought DM'ing 4th Edition for Dummies, and he's playing as a PC for a while, to gain experience from the other side of the screen. This has been deemed acceptable by the players who wanted change, and he's not bitter about the change. Thank you all for your input and advice.

that sounds dangerous to me in some way, lol i can almost imagine this ex dm peering over his players handbook just waiting for the next dm to mess up (in some way he deems as bad) with the dummies guide to dm-ing hidding inside his player handbook like a comic hidden inside a school text book.

the moment you do somthing "questionable" then a resounding "HA!" or the ever famous "A-hA! ya messed up! right here in 4-6! how could you?!"

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 akguardian777 Jun 17, 2009 9:31:30	Okay, a little background before we get started. My group has only recently started playing, and we've been working towards this point for quite some time. The group sees me as the most proficient when it comes to both creativity and to rules interpretation and/or knowledge of the rules, but one of the other players (currently the DM) agreed to do the work required for the DM, so we agreed that he should do it, since the rest of us didn't have time. Well, since then, the DM has made several decisions that have left the group wondering if we should continue playing; we all love the game, it's just that our DM isn't the best choice. A house rule that says that if you kill a monster and drop it to -10 HP it stuns the enemies around it for a round isn't fun for anyone but a DM who loves to throw status effects around and make the game easy. We had basically agreed to put up with the DM's eccentricities up until recently. The DM wasn't able to make it to an impromptu game I pulled a couple of the lads in for, so we decided that since it was just 3 of us, perhaps it would be best for one of us to DMPC. I volunteered, and we all had the most fun we've had since we've started. No strange house-rules, no Wands of Railroading, just a straight-up game that we all enjoyed. Now, the lads asked me, straight-up, not to let our DM DM for us again. Considering that he has a problem with taking things personally, and he's new to DM'ing, I think this is a cold decision to have pushed on me like this, but I'm afraid the whole group might grow tired of his Hitchhiker's Guide references and Wand of Railroading and leave. If you have any advice as to what I should do in this situation, I would appreciate any input.
#2 mock26 Jun 17, 2009 9:44:28	Okay, a little background before we get started. My group has only recently started playing, and we've been working towards this point for quite some time. The group sees me as the most proficient when it comes to both creativity and to rules interpretation and/or knowledge of the rules, but one of the other players (currently the DM) agreed to do the work required for the DM, so we agreed that he should do it, since the rest of us didn't have time. Well, since then, the DM has made several decisions that have left the group wondering if we should continue playing; we all love the game, it's just that our DM isn't the best choice. A house rule that says that if you kill a monster and drop it to -10 HP it stuns the enemies around it for a round isn't fun for anyone but a DM who loves to throw status effects around and make the game easy. We had basically agreed to put up with the DM's eccentricities up until recently. The DM wasn't able to make it to an impromptu game I pulled a couple of the lads in for, so we decided that since it was just 3 of us, perhaps it would be best for one of us to DMPC. I volunteered, and we all had the most fun we've had since we've started. No strange house-rules, no Wands of Railroading, just a straight-up game that we all enjoyed. Now, the lads asked me, straight-up, not to let our DM DM for us again. Considering that he has a problem with taking things personally, and he's new to DM'ing, I think this is a cold decision to have pushed on me like this, but I'm afraid the whole group might grow tired of his Hitchhiker's Guide references and Wand of Railroading and leave. If you have any advice as to what I should do in this situation, I would appreciate any input. If you want to do nothing but on-shot adventures that have no impact on other adventures, then that is all well and good. But, before you are overly harsh on your DM try your hand at running an ongoing campaign for a while. It is not as easy as running a one-shot adventure. What type of a campaign did you want? Did you want a long-term campaign with a BBEG and a series of linked adventures? Or did you just want someone to DM you through a free-from campaign? If he is new to DMing then chances are he will not have on hand a lot of adventures to pick and choose from, and if you guys just want to run around and do stuff on the spur of the moment he will not be prepared for it. If he is new he also probably does not have the skills to make it up as he goes along. So, he is resorting to railroading to get you guys into the adventures that he does have planned. Talk to him about this. Let him know what you expect in regards to adventures. And if you guys want to randomly do whatever you want you need to give him as much advance notice as possible to prepare for an adventure. If, on game day, you guys suddenly decide to go hunt orcs and if he does not have an adventure prepared for that then what do you expect him to do? Some would say that he should have an adventure ready, but that is easier said than done. As for railroading, I suspect you would not mind it so much if he was a better DM. I have found that DM nudging us down the railroad tracks to keep us going on a great campaign arc is no big deal, so long as the adventures are fun. He might just need time to get better. Now, if all of you are agreed that the DM is not working out then just tell him. Yes, his feelings might be hurt, but you need to do what you need to do. If you dislike playing with him as your DM more than you like playing with him then you should not be playing with him as your DM. If you decide to ask him to step down be sure to ask him to stay on as a player! If you do not then it is more likely he will leave. But, before you ask him to step down maybe you should try talking to him about what you do not enjoy about his DMing. Maybe he can change. Maybe he needs some help with some of the work load (the workload for a campiagn DM can be more than some people can handle). Maybe he needs regular breaks (as in one week off for every 3 weeks he DMs) where someone can run a one-shot game or even play another game. But you will not know unless you talk to him. And when you do talk to him, DO IT AS A GROUP. Your so-called friends leave a lot to be desired by dumping this on your lap. Not only is it a crappy thing to do to you, but it is also quite cowardly. If your DM takes it badly they will be there, behind you (figuratively), pointing their fingers at you to take all the blame. Tell your cowardly "friends" that you all do it as a group or that you will not be their hatchetman/fall guy.
#3 trentl Jun 17, 2009 9:56:29	Is he someone who you can take aside privately and talk about just playing the game as it was meant to play? As a newb DM myself, I fall pray to railroading at times, and as an experienced player (20 years under my belt) I know its frustrating, but at the same time I know with new DM's that if you deviate from what they have planned the adventure can putter off and die. But then again I don't mind being railroaded for a decent adventure, I do hate house rules though (Especially ones that crop up that nobody knew about ) Hopefully he'll understand and want to play the game the way it was intended (Easy on the house rules) or you could try something we used sometimes to get a new DM out, the "Hey I had this really cool Idea for a one shot adventure, is it okay if I run it this weekend? And we'll continue back with yours the weekend after. Hopefully after he see's the affect of no house rules and a bit more open ended he'll enjoy being a player
#4 gr8tyrant Jun 17, 2009 9:59:19	I agree. Being honest with him is the only way to make it work. When I DM, if my players aren't having fun than neither am I normally, so he may be just as unenthusiastic with the game as you all are. Also, if you have been voted DM, there is not much he can do about it. You need players for a game. Be nice about it and thank him for his time. Another suggestion to make it a little easier to take. You could start doing a round robin DM sessino and have the party vote at the end. if it is you than great, if not than whatever, but this way it is a group decision. Either way someone has to talk to the DM.
#5 Draco_Whitewind Jun 17, 2009 20:55:43	there is no real excuse for railroading you to the point of boredom and being ****** off, and he should know that :-p seriously, if you explain it I don't think he'd be too devastated.
#6 pyromancer2k Jun 17, 2009 20:59:44	I think the general rule for all games should be no house rules if your an inexperienced DM. First off the DM is not that familiar with the system at least from the DMs point of view so it is never a good idea to go changing rules on a system you don't know that well. Also the DM has enough to worry about without having to worry about all the potential implications of a house rule. And make this clear to new DMs that the role of the DM is to use the rules and tools available to create adventures for the players and NOT to create new rules and mechanics for the game, which is the job of the DEVELOPERS! New DMs should focus on story, encounters, and NPCs. Once they get fairly well established and comfortable with that. Then they still shouldn't house rule unless it's new content based such as races, classes, items, and etc. Because adding stuff is fine but changing fundamentals of the system throws the balance completely out of whack. In closing I'm not saying DM's can't make new rules and add new mechanics to the game but rather it's something that should be left up to experienced DMs who know the system quite well already.
#7 akguardian777 Jun 23, 2009 19:42:42	All right, we've come up with a bit of a compromise; the DM bought DM'ing 4th Edition for Dummies, and he's playing as a PC for a while, to gain experience from the other side of the screen. This has been deemed acceptable by the players who wanted change, and he's not bitter about the change. Thank you all for your input and advice.
#8 Man_in_the_Funny_Hat Jun 24, 2009 9:47:52	We had basically agreed to put up with the DM's eccentricities up until recently. Presumably your DM is actually **** sapiens - a real, live human. If so that means he does NOT have ESP. He will never alter his approach or improve his decision-making if you do not TELL HIM YOU DON'T LIKE IT. It isn't hard to do: "X, we should have told you this sooner but we just DO NOT LIKE some of your house rules and we feel we'd have much more fun if we could play without rules a, b, and c. Also, we feel awfully railroaded, as if our PC's have no choice but to undertake whatever adventure you throw at us. Having at least the ILLUSION of choice makes a big difference." Considering that he has a problem with taking things personally, and he's new to DM'ing, I think this is a cold decision to have pushed on me like this, but I'm afraid the whole group might grow tired of his Hitchhiker's Guide references and Wand of Railroading and leave. So your choices as you see them are to waste EVERYONE's time silently waiting for that game to die a horrible death, or to suddenly quit without even the courtesy of an explanation and, what? Continue the new game you started and not invite him even as a player? If you have any advice as to what I should do in this situation, I would appreciate any input. COMMUNICATE with him. TELL him what you think and why. You owe him that much as a friend if nothing else. If he's not intentionally being a jerk, if he's earnestly trying to provide the best game he can but YOU'RE NOT TELLING HIM YOU'RE NOT ENJOYING IT, then as a basic courtesy as a player in his game you owe him an explanation. Now you may not be able to control his reaction to your opinion, but if you talk politely and calmly about it then unless he has definite psychological problems he should be able to deal with it.
#9 ravenharm Jun 26, 2009 11:51:44	All right, we've come up with a bit of a compromise; the DM bought DM'ing 4th Edition for Dummies, and he's playing as a PC for a while, to gain experience from the other side of the screen. This has been deemed acceptable by the players who wanted change, and he's not bitter about the change. Thank you all for your input and advice. that sounds dangerous to me in some way, lol i can almost imagine this ex dm peering over his players handbook just waiting for the next dm to mess up (in some way he deems as bad) with the dummies guide to dm-ing hidding inside his player handbook like a comic hidden inside a school text book. the moment you do somthing "questionable" then a resounding "HA!" or the ever famous "A-hA! ya messed up! right here in 4-6! how could you?!"