Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 draaka Jul 02, 2008 14:43:11	Well, my real question is do you think we can play with a party like this?: Eladrin Rogue (Not sure) Eladrin Ranger (Archer) Tiefling Rogue (Not sure) Tiefling Ranger (Two bladed) Dragonblood Rogue (Not sure) The lowest stealth score in the party is 10, at first level. Is it possible to use stealth as the party's main survival tactic in 4E? Also, I know we will have massive damage out put, but our highest ac is like 18, is that workable?
#2 redcard Jul 02, 2008 15:03:49	I think with just strikers, you'll be in a lot of trouble. You'll only be able to take on one at a time.. you won't be able to control the encounters.. minions would utterly destroy you. You sure you can't get one of those rogues to go defender and one of the rangers to go leader?
#3 rainkiss Jul 02, 2008 15:47:01	I dunno about broken, but you're certainly crippling yourselves. I'd suggest the players sit down and have a chat about balancing the party out, or you're gonna get slaughtered. (Or, your DM is going to have to put in overtime keeping your cookies out of the fire. Me, I'd let you run with it just out of curiosity.)
#4 plague_wind Jul 02, 2008 16:00:12	So 3 rogues and 2 rangers . . . IMO ur not only crippling ur making things hard on the DM. Basically he has to put in a lot more effort in the campaign setup (encounters mainly). If he decides to put u up against a solo encounter monster g/l to whoever is tanking that beast. Don't get mad if he one shots one of your PCs. You also limit the amount of exploring time you have. With everyone having close to about 8 healing surges a day, u have to take more extended rest than normal. If the average monster does 5 damage to one pc thats about 1/6 of his life. Meaning he can only take about 3 hits before wanting to use a healing surge (assuming your lvl 1). Your quesion about stealth . . . can be done but what happens when u all are exposed. Plus one character is going to be taking damage during the encounter cuz the monsters are gunna go after someone. If you have a party of five best bet would be 2 defenders, 2 strikers and either 1 controller/leader.
#5 tyrandor Jul 02, 2008 16:53:02	Things might not be that bad... Make sure someone has 'Heal' has skill. You guys will be able to a Surprise round against practically everything. A surprise round means a lot of damage, tactical advantage and if you're smart, you'll be able to have Combat Advantage when the first round starts. With that many Sneak Attack + Rangers... you'll most likely always drop 1 foe during a Surprise Round. Because of this, you'll probably mow through equal level encounters... but anything with solo or with numerous enemies will tear you apart. The DM will have to build a game very carefully for you guys. It might not be worth the trouble.
#6 Alter_Boy Jul 02, 2008 16:58:46	It sounds like you're trying to be a clan on ninjas who sneak up on their foes and kill them in their sleep. Have you told your DM yet?
#7 jage Jul 02, 2008 18:49:54	Play it and see. Then come back and tell us. And don't have the DM customize the encounters for your party, but also don't spend a ton of time on backstory.
#8 inlicere Jul 02, 2008 19:07:13	Well, my real question is do you think we can play with a party like this?: ... Is it possible to use stealth as the party's main survival tactic in 4E? Also, I know we will have massive damage out put, but our highest ac is like 18, is that workable? It completely depends on your DM. I believe in creating stories/adventures to fit the party rather than the other way around, but not everyone feels that way. FWIW, I once created a game for tournament play in which all characters were Rogues, or part-rogues (via dual-classing or multi-classing). It was a huge hit. My advice: Ignore tactics, and play the game you want to play (assuming it's also the game your DM wants to play). You'll have a lot more fun that way.
#9 tipop Jul 02, 2008 19:20:23	I do agree that the adventure (and encounters) needs to be designed with the party in mind. If everyone is picking stealthy characters, that's sending a message to the DM... "We want to play in a story with a lot of sneaking around and taking out specific enemies quickly." Sounds like a good start for an espionage game.
#10 wildwalker Jul 02, 2008 20:00:34	You are not crippling anything...you've just clearly defined the type of game you want to play. I'd love to GM a group like that! WildWalker
#11 eluxis Jul 02, 2008 22:05:48	Play it and see. Then come back and tell us. And don't have the DM customize the encounters for your party, but also don't spend a ton of time on backstory. +1. I think it's too early to tell what will "cripple" a campaign. You will have to alter your tactics quite a bit from a traditional party's tactics though. Strike hard, strike fast, and get the hell outta there before the dust settles. Double up on bad guys to increase their chances of dying before getting to pound on you too much. Just remember that a fair fight is the last thing in which you want to be and you should do okay. Set up rally points to meet up at when you guys are forced to flee in all directions due to strong opposition. Then sneak back in and hit 'em again! Please come back and let us know how it works out.
#12 zillah Jul 02, 2008 22:09:15	against a controller encounter, you will get mowed down
#13 tipop Jul 03, 2008 0:30:39	against a controller encounter, you will get mowed down Only if the enemy controllers know what's happening. In a group like that, they'll be scouting ahead, planning their attacks, and probably killing enemy controllers in the first round. Hit'n'run tactics. *BOOM* An explosion to the left of the orc encampment. The guards rush to investigate while the others wake up and gather their gear. Then suddenly the shadows come alive and the air is full of arrows and shuriken... the orc witch is dead! The orc warleader is enraged, as she was his mate as well as the spiritual leader of his troops. But before the orcs can do anything, the attackers are already gone! Vanished into the shadowy trees... It might be fun!
#14 weederguy Jul 03, 2008 12:49:15	Only if the enemy controllers know what's happening. In a group like that, they'll be scouting ahead, planning their attacks, and probably killing enemy controllers in the first round. Hit'n'run tactics. *BOOM* An explosion to the left of the orc encampment. The guards rush to investigate while the others wake up and gather their gear. Then suddenly the shadows come alive and the air is full of arrows and shuriken... the orc witch is dead! The orc warleader is enraged, as she was his mate as well as the spiritual leader of his troops. But before the orcs can do anything, the attackers are already gone! Vanished into the shadowy trees... It might be fun! I doubt they are doing that, scouting ahead, planning their attacks and all that. I get the feeling they are thinking, Highest Melee and range damage. And players that only think along those lines, are trying to use numbers over tactics.
#15 tipop Jul 03, 2008 13:09:15	You have a point. It depends on the players and how intelligently they approach the game... but isn't that true of any group? You could design the perfect team of PCs, but in the hands of foolish players they will get slaughtered. My point is just that the above team of rangers and rogues might, in the hands of skilled players, prove an exciting and dynamic example of what can be done, rather than necessarily getting "mowed down" as Zillah suggests.
#16 skywyze Jul 03, 2008 16:17:04	A lot can be handled by itemization still. You can get healing, invisibility (to set up better ambushes) and all kinds of benefits through items. However, the reason I don't think this would work as well as it might seem is because encounters in 4th are all about attrition and sustained damage. Not about burst. It's very hard in my (limited) experience with 4th to kill things. I mean, assume you're level 10 and you do 6[W]+Dex (let's assume you have a Dex of 20) reliably, and you're using a Rapier (1d8). That's still only a maximum of 53 points of damage. And that's your absolute max using a disgustingly high-powered attack with a superior-quality weapon. And it assumes you land the blow. And even THAT would only take them your average 10th level monster to half health at best. My point being, monster hps are huge compared with burst damage output. So relying on burst damage might not work so well in 4th. You could always multiclass later to cover and slack though - multiclass ranger+Cleric for instance, could heal almost as well as a pure cleric. And with enough Armor feats and maybe a dip into Warlord or Paladin, your rogue could get an astronomical armor class. That being said, it's an awesome idea and I'd love to hear how it ends up going.
#17 rowl Jul 03, 2008 23:28:49	Only if the enemy controllers know what's happening. In a group like that, they'll be scouting ahead, planning their attacks, and probably killing enemy controllers in the first round. Hit'n'run tactics. *BOOM* An explosion to the left of the orc encampment. The guards rush to investigate while the others wake up and gather their gear. Then suddenly the shadows come alive and the air is full of arrows and shuriken... the orc witch is dead! The orc warleader is enraged, as she was his mate as well as the spiritual leader of his troops. But before the orcs can do anything, the attackers are already gone! Vanished into the shadowy trees... It might be fun! LOL- that's awesome! Yeah, I think this definitely illustrates that it depends a lot on how you intend to play the game, and making sure your GM is ok with that. Mostly, he needs to be able to run that kind of game. If he's running from modules or 'canned' material, you guys might be in for some serious hurtin'. But if he's the kind of GM that can roll with it and is good with writing his own adventures, then it should be a lot of fun (as pointed out in the quoted reference).
#18 gufnork Jul 04, 2008 1:51:45	I think that if played well they'd outperform a balanced group by far, but I don't have any actually play experience yet. I think they need to go all melee for it to work well, though. All ranged might work, but a mix will be bad.
#19 sebby Jul 04, 2008 15:11:28	This group of stealthy characters could be fun to play. To make up for the specialization in roles, you may want to try any or all of the following: Have one rogue switch to Warlock. It adds a different type of striker (your group's theme stays the same!) AND as he can be trained in Arcana from 1st level, can become a Ritual Caster more easily than others. Use different builds for the rangers (edit: ah, you're already doing it) and for the rogues. Multiclass everyone to cover for the lack of healing, tanking and battlefield control. We once had a game (3.5e) with a ranger, a rogue, a monk (3 "strikers"), a wizard and a cleric. It required careful tactics, mistakes were deadly, and everyone had to pick up feats or class levels to cover up for the group's weaknesses, especially the lack of tanks. We could setup a mean ambush, though! It was fun.
#20 CCS Jul 04, 2008 16:25:43	In my experience (both as a player & a DM in all previous editions, and many other systems) you can make any type of party work. I've not played 4e yet. But I also see nothing in my new books that would make me believe anythings changed to invalidate nearly 30 years experience..... The thing to keep in mind is that your options & responses to various encounters will be different based upon the types of characters you choose to play. Keep any limitations in mind & play to whatever your strengths are. If you continue to play as though you have missing archtype x, then you'll be in trouble. You'll also end up in trouble if you don't play characters you like. When one person ends up playing a character only because "that's what the party needs", then there's a problem. So do not listen to advise suggeting talking someone into playing an _____ istead.
#21 sagelyone Jul 04, 2008 16:26:49	I doubt they are doing that, scouting ahead, planning their attacks and all that. I get the feeling they are thinking, Highest Melee and range damage. And players that only think along those lines, are trying to use numbers over tactics. Well, he DID say they were going to use stealth as their primary defense. If they're smart about it (as they should be) scouting, planning and execution will be key to their survival. It sounds more like they want to play a delta force mission rather than just maximize single target damage. And I think it would work amazingly well in most cases. 2 rangers to pluck off the lookout in 1 round before he sounds the alarm, the rogues stealth in, take patrolling guards out one at a time, rig some doors/traps, then take out the leader before he knows what hit him. No alarms sounded, no patrols returning to report, no shock troops because of the jammed doors, reversed traps and missing gear. The element of surprise is a BEAUTIFUL thing, I only wish more people took advantage of it.
#22 sebby Jul 04, 2008 19:07:15	I agree with what you say, but this: So do not listen to advise suggeting talking someone into playing an _____ istead. is obviously subject to the condition that someone is willing to switch class without being unhappy about it.
#23 half_dragon_infernal Jul 04, 2008 20:57:41	For example, I personally would not like being a defender, but if my group lacked one (not a problem, we have a fighter-obsessed kid) I would pull out the Dragonborn Paladin build I have worked out.
#24 robinjapan Jul 04, 2008 21:37:13	I don't think you crippled yourself as yet, as long as your DM writes adventures that play to your characters' strengths. though I would suggest multiclassing early into defender and leader/controller roles. perhaps 1 ranger into defender and 1 rogue into a leader/controller, or even 2 rogues into one of each, then keep 1 ranger and 1 rogue "pure" for the striker role.
#25 medhia_nox Jul 07, 2008 14:38:13	Hey, if it's good for Harry Potter (all Wizards), or 13 Warrior (all warrior types), or.. umm.. West Side Story (all rogues?) then it's good for my D&D campaign. Run with it.. if you're all having fun ((ALL of you, not just your players)) then modify the quests to really fit into the theme of this very espionage oriented group. If you don't enjoy (or feel you aren't good at) running this kind of campaign... you have no choice but to run the campaign you feel is your strongest (or most enjoyable.. and preferably both) and hope the player group survives. They MUST know how very focused their group is.. Also, the multiclassing options do open up quiet a range of possibilities even with a group of all one class.
#26 Drecon84 Jul 07, 2008 17:25:01	All kinds of groups should be playable. And seeing how much time and effort was put into 4th edition I think there is a good chance that with some minor efforts from the DM you can have a tremendous amount if fun by going over the regular lines. Just try and play that all-paladin or all-warlock party. It would be really awesome if it works and makes for awesome storytelling.