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| #1brassbaboonJan 28, 2010 22:09:36 | Has anyone made effective use of magical ammunition for 4e? I understand the game balance argument for magic ammunition using the ammo bonus and not the weapon bonus, but it strikes me as creating an actual penalty for buying and using magical ammunition once you get to mid to upper heroic levels. Since ammunition price scales rapidly using a +3 magic arrow is more than ten times the cost of a +1 magic arrow. So you can shoot ten +1 arrows for the cost of one +3 arrow. So, if anyone actually does use magic ammo effectively, I'd like to know if they buy the cheapest versions so they get the most chances to hit at a lower bonus, or buy the most expensive version to keep their attack bonus in the right range for their level? Right now I'm leaning towards buying lots of cheap ammo and just shooting more of it. In general two shots with a +1 arrow have a higher chance to hit than a single shot with a +3 arrow, so for twin striking rangers it would seem that buying the cheaper stuff is the most effective way to get the effect to work. Or to put it another way, ten +1 arrows will likely hit at least four times while one +3 arrow may not even hit once. But, as I said, I'd be interested to hear from others. |
| #2shadow_viperJan 28, 2010 22:43:38 | In 4E, a magic projectile weapon no longer confers it's enhancement bonus to ammunition shot from it? |
| #3brassbaboonJan 28, 2010 22:48:36 |
It confers its bonus to NON-magical ammunition. So a normal arrow shot from a +3 bow is effectively a +3 arrow. BUT if you fire MAGICAL ammunition from a magical bow, you choose to either use the bow OR the ammunition's bonus. If you use the bow's bonus, you don't gain the effects of the ammunition's enchantment. So, if you have a "spider arrow +1" and shoot it from a +3 bow, if you take the +3 bonus, you don't get the spider effect, and if you take the spider effect, you don't get the +3 bonus, you get the ammunition's +1 bonus instead. That's how I read it anyway. Update: I actually think it's that you use either the bow's or the arrow's enchantment, so if you are using a bow with a property (like distance) and use that to shoot a magic arrow, you don't gain the arrow's enchantment effect, and if you use the arrow's enchantment then you don't gain the distance. It's not just the bonus, it's the whole enchantment. This was all wrong. ;) The most obvious "real world" effect of this is that buying a +1 magic arrow and using its enchantment when fired from a +3 bow is effectively taking a -2 attack penalty. So I'm wondering how many people pay 30 gold to take an attack penalty in order to gain the effect of the ammunition (such as "daze"). |
| #4sallaJan 29, 2010 13:19:54 |
You use the lower of the two bonuses between the ammo and the device that launched it. |
| #5beowuufJan 29, 2010 13:50:34 | I assume the reason to buy is to be able to hit creatures requiring magical damage at a distance. So yes, in this case you take the penalty but damage the critter. I'd also assume it's more likely you'd put magical ammo in the possession of NPCs than a bow that the players can keep. If the magical ammo is less of a bonus overall, you don't get some meta-game scramble for any ammunition after the fight. |
| #6brassbaboonJan 29, 2010 19:28:35 | I assume the reason to buy is to be able to hit creatures requiring magical damage at a distance. So yes, in this case you take the penalty but damage the critter. Is that how most people use ammo? That's not how I see it. To me magic ammunition is a way to gain some control capabilities for a character who may lack them. It's not about damaging enemies, but slowing or dazing them. Plus the firestorm arrow would seem to be an excellent tactic against minions. I'm just wondering if anyone uses magical ammo, and if so, how. I'm asking because I'm contemplating loading my ranger up with ammo to make him more versatile. Also, I checked out the Adventurer's Vault II at the bookstore and learned that I was wrong about using the bow's or ammo's enchantment, it is as Salla says, it's only the attack and damage bonus that you change when you use ammo. If you use the ammo's bonus, then the enchantments and criticals of the device and ammo both still apply, but if you use the bow's bonus, then the ammo's enchantment does not apply but it's used up anyway. |
| #7VaultDwellerJan 29, 2010 20:24:43 | I like magic ammo for characters that don't primarily use ranged weapons. It lets you make the occasional ranged attack with a level appropriate enhancement bonus with the small investment of buying a few enchanted arrows, rather than the much steeper cost of enchanting a bow. Also, my half-orc fighter/ranger loves Arrows of Transit. Baddies think that they can stay safe from his pointy shinies by keeping their distance? Tazok begs to differ, because his Arrows of Transit can get him up close and personal for some quality stabbity time. |
| #8brassbaboonJan 29, 2010 22:55:00 | I like magic ammo for characters that don't primarily use ranged weapons. It lets you make the occasional ranged attack with a level appropriate enhancement bonus with the small investment of buying a few enchanted arrows, rather than the much steeper cost of enchanting a bow. That's true for low level characters when you can buy a level appropriate magic arrow for 30 gold. Once you get to paragon you're looking at 650g for a +3 enchantment and it escalates from there. And all it takes to waste a 650g investment is to roll a 6 or something. Which takes me back to whether it makes sense to buy more cheaper versions instead of fewer more expensive versions. But I'm also wondering if magic ammunition is used by enough people to warrant it's actual existence. Do most people look at it and say "No way I'm gonna pay 30 gold a pop to take a -2 attack penalty, and 650 gold a pop is way too much to chance rolling poorly when I need to roll well." I'm just wondering. |
| #9Neutronium_DragonJan 29, 2010 23:31:51 | Yes, people use magical ammunition. The point to keep in mind is that it's like other consumables - it's something you use when you have a tactical need to apply a special effect, not something that you use (or should expect to use) every round. |
| #10MrCustomerJan 30, 2010 0:31:32 | This is really how it was in 3rd edition, the bonuses don't stack it is one or the other. The real benifit of magical ammo is in obtaining different magical effects with the ammo in question, not the straight to hit bonus, for this the magical bonus of the arrow is more desirable then that of the bow, a firestorm arrow or a spider bolt or dispelling bolt to mention a few. These ammo types are good for special case uses, and is really the type of magical ammo you want to carry along with your bow. For obvious reasons you would want the magical bonus from this ammo rather then that of the bow. This makes it possible for someone with a magical bow to have different types of ammo for different purposes and strategy. |
| #11VaultDwellerJan 30, 2010 7:02:03 | That's true for low level characters when you can buy a level appropriate magic arrow for 30 gold. Once you get to paragon you're looking at 650g for a +3 enchantment and it escalates from there. It's true for higher levels as well. 650 GP isn't a large amount to paragon tier adventurers - if the DM follows the DMG treasure guidelines, then the party will get 18,000 GP (or 3600 GP per player) of monetary treasure throughout the course of level 11. Besides, it's a matter of proportion. Buying a few 650 GP +3 arrows is dirt cheap compared to buying a +3 bow, which costs somewhere in the range of 9000 to 25000 GP. Thanks to magic ammunition, I can get a +1 Rebounding Longbow to get the enchantment property I want, and I will never need to make the massive investment required to upgrade it - it will always be much, much cheaper to buy the magical ammo that I need. |
| #12sallaJan 30, 2010 12:39:32 | That's true for low level characters when you can buy a level appropriate magic arrow for 30 gold. Once you get to paragon you're looking at 650g for a +3 enchantment and it escalates from there. However, you'll only have a +1 to attack and damage rolls with it. That loss of accuracy will come back to haunt you. |
| #13VaultDwellerJan 30, 2010 13:32:40 | However, you'll only have a +1 to attack and damage rolls with it. That loss of accuracy will come back to haunt you. No, I would have the enhancement bonus of the ammunition as a bonus to attacks and damage. There is no loss of accuracy, that's the reason for using the magical ammunition - I can get the higher enhancement bonus on the occasional shot without investing in improving the bow's enhancement level. AV2, page 26: "Ammunition applies an enhancement bonus to an attack roll and damage roll when used. If the projectile weapon is magical, use the ammunition's enhancement bonus in place of the weapon's enhancement bonus. The weapon's critical bonus and the properties from both the weapon and the ammunition still apply. Using magic ammunition doesn't prevent you from activating a magic weapon's powers." I don't see any errata published that contradicts this paragraph. You can use a low-level weapon with high-level ammo, and you will get the ammo's enhancement bonus as well as any properties and powers from both the weapon and the ammo. |
| #14brassbaboonJan 31, 2010 11:41:51 | This is really how it was in 3rd edition, the bonuses don't stack it is one or the other. No, it's not. In 3rd and 3.5 the bonuses just don't STACK. You never are forced to use a LOWER bonus than your magic weapon to fire magical ammo. The resulting attack when using a magic weapon and magic ammo ALWAYS uses the HIGHER bonus to attack in 3 and 3.5. That's the whole point of this discusson. The real benifit of magical ammo is in obtaining different magical effects with the ammo in question, not the straight to hit bonus, for this the magical bonus of the arrow is more desirable then that of the bow, a firestorm arrow or a spider bolt or dispelling bolt to mention a few. These ammo types are good for special case uses, and is really the type of magical ammo you want to carry along with your bow. For obvious reasons you would want the magical bonus from this ammo rather then that of the bow. This makes it possible for someone with a magical bow to have different types of ammo for different purposes and strategy. What "obvious reason" would there be for me to "want the magical bonus of the ammo" (a +1) appy "than that of the bow" (a +3). You are asserting that as a bow wielding ranger I would WANT to have a +15 instead of a +17 to hit? Really? Yes, I acknowledge that the magical weapons are tactical decisions. That's not what I'm asking. I'm asking if there are players who have incorporated using magical ammo into their character's standard repertoire, and if so do they spend thousands of gold on level appropriate ammo, or do they buy lots of cheap ammo and take the attack penalty hit from using lower level ammo. In particular I'm asking if RANGED strikers who specialize in ranged attacks do it, or if they find standard arrows more effective due to their lower cost (virtually free) and utilization of the weapon's bonuses? Right now I'm leaning to buying several low level ammo items and just accepting the lower attack bonus, but I don't know how other people address the same issue. |
| #15brassbaboonJan 31, 2010 11:49:53 | However, you'll only have a +1 to attack and damage rolls with it. That loss of accuracy will come back to haunt you. Vault, this is similar to my approach. I basically decided that since my character is a melee/ranged attacker, and his ranged attacks are much less damaging than his melee attacks, that his ranged attacks really were more effective if used tactically to apply some special attack, such as a burst damage attack or a slow or daze attack. For that reason I actually decided to just use a normal, non-magical bow and just buy the magical ammo. I like your approach better now that I think about it, a relatively cheap +1 level bow would still apply the enchantment effect on a hit. However, I can't really see my character buying +3 ammo. At level 11 I'm still pretty broke if I buy other magical items needed, and so spending 650g per arrow is simply not feasible. Even spending 30g per arrow, I only have enough gold to buy four stacks of four magic arrows each, meaning I am looking at spending 480g for sixteen shots. That still sounds pretty extravagant to me, but I'll see how it works out in actual combat. Of course, as Salla points out, that means my attacks are with an attack bonus of +15 instead of +17, which at level 11 moves my ranged attacks from the "normal" range to the "below average" range. To address that I'll probably use Careful Attack with the magic ammo to get back to a +17 bonus.... As I said, we'll see. |
| #16deviknyteJan 31, 2010 16:42:00 | Yeah. In 3.5 buying magic ammo was awesome. Especially if you could get a GM to let you buy them one arrow at a time instead of bundles of 50. +25 enchanted shots! Buy a plus +1 Collision, Distance, Force, Psychokinetic, Screaming, Warning, Spellstrike* Long/Greatbow Buy a number of +1 Consumtive**, Corrosive, Flaming, Frost, Lucky, Shocking, Spellstoring, X*** IronWildwood Arrows *If you don't cast spells grab Desiccating instead. **If you can convince your GM, trade Consumtive for Teleporting a +1 enchantment. Get the arrow right back if you miss after Lucky. ***Something Baney. Bane, Desiccating, Magebane or Merciful. Now ignore the +1 on the arrows and +1 on the bow, so that's +18. Add in a 20th level Greater Magic Weapon on the Arrows from someone in the party, so that's +23. Add in Keen Edge on the Arrows, so that's +24. Add in Flaming Arrow, so that's +25. And there are many more spells you can add into arrows or on a bow. If you miss or hit and break an arrow, they are made of wildwood and fix themselves (this one if iffy because destoried items lose their magic IIRC). Lucky on the arrows gives you a rerolls on everyshot (until you start recycling arrows during the day if wildwood works). |
| #17brassbaboonJan 31, 2010 16:58:28 | Yeah. In 3.5 buying magic ammo was awesome. Especially if you could get a GM to let you buy them one arrow at a time instead of bundles of 50. I was sorta with you until you got to the "+24" part. How did you get to +24 from two stacked +1 bonuses (which would still be +1)? Just some notes.. Besides the arrow and the bow bonuses not stacking, neither does any other enhancement bonus, so if you are casting "greater magic weapon" that will simply override any existing enhancement bonuses, not stack with them. The same goes for many of the enchantments you mention, some of which (keen edge, frost, etc.) have no effect on attack bonuses and those that do almost universally have an "enhancement" bonus (the exception here would probably be a "luck" arrow). If you are talking about purely magical bonuses to your attack, you're going to be hard-pressed to get more than about +7 or so (greater magic weapon maxes out at a +5). Besides, at some point you get overkill with attack bonuses anyway since you will always miss on a 1. |
| #18deviknyteJan 31, 2010 17:37:07 | I edited. The total is +25 levels of enchantment, like a would be epic level weapon. Not a +25 to hit and damge. |
| #19brassbaboonJan 31, 2010 18:28:21 | I edited. The total is +25 levels of enchantment, like a would be epic level weapon. Not a +25 to hit and damge. In spite of all this expense and effort you've gone to (and this would total into tens of thousands of gold to do all these enchantments) you've still bascially got a +5 arrow that is not guaranteed to hit. (And might be defeated by a simple shield spell, even). Basically, if you did hit with one, this would be more powerful than most artifacts. Since no player in any of my campaigns has had mountains of gold to throw away, nobody has ever tried this. I'm not sure what I'd do if they did try it. I do know that it would be extremely expensive and time-consuming to make the sort of magic bows and arrows you are describing here, and I am quite certain such items would not be for sale. It might not be possible to combine all of the effects you've listed, unless that is done by a multi-classed spell caster since magic items have to be created from masterwork items (meaning you can't take an existing magic item and "add" a magic enchantment to it, it has to be done all in one creation process, according to RAW). Of course, since there is also an XP cost to this effort, your party wizard/cleric/druid multiclassed demigod might not be too keen on making them. In the end, if someone has the money, the components, the knowledge of spells, the feats, the time and wanted to do this, I'm not sure why I would object to it. After all, if they have that kind of money, they could be buying other things just as cheesy... |
| #20deviknyteFeb 02, 2010 22:20:32 | I never said it was practical. But with lucky on every arrow you shoot your good to go. And with many shot if you fire four arrows then you get 4 rerolls on one attack. And to be really effective requires some slack on your GM's side. As per all the making, you just hit the local magik mart, lol. An artificer is also a good option. And if you can get away with the wildwood trick then it's not very expensive at all, because you keep picking the ammo back up. Buy and upgrade a bow and buy and upgrade arrows. One of my players made a Kensei once. Picked up Exotic Weapon Prof Arrow. I let him make the ammo on the fly and divided the exp cost in the kensei class by 50. Quite fun and wasn't too over powered. |
| #21brassbaboonFeb 03, 2010 0:32:54 | I never said it was practical. But with lucky on every arrow you shoot your good to go. And with many shot if you fire four arrows then you get 4 rerolls on one attack. And to be really effective requires some slack on your GM's side. As per all the making, you just hit the local magik mart, lol. An artificer is also a good option. And if you can get away with the wildwood trick then it's not very expensive at all, because you keep picking the ammo back up. Buy and upgrade a bow and buy and upgrade arrows. See, it's the idea that you can buy such an arrow at the local magic shop that I find completely ludicrous. To make that arrow you'd have to be a multi-classed demigod and if you did, you'd be making it for your demigod buddy ranger, not selling them. If something like that was in a magic shop in one of my campaigns, that shop would be robbed in a heartbeat. You're talking about the D&D equivalent of a tactical nuclear weapon. They aren't gonna be laying around in magic shops. But I'm sure some people play D&D that way and have a blast doing it. It just hasn't happened in any of the campaigns I've ever been in, and frankly, I glad of that. Anyway, the point of this thread is to discuss if and how people use the very rigidly defined magic ammunition in 4e, not to get into a discussion of the acknowledged cheesiness of 3.5. |
| #22thomasjtheobaldFeb 03, 2010 4:30:08 | Hypothetical monster arrows aside, and in answer to the OP, I run a cunning bard whose main weapon is a +3 songbow - and I keep a few +1 fire, frost, and lightning arrows (as well as some heroic-tier alchemical silver) for situational shots. If I see a gang of baddies clustered up on one of my allies, I'll pick someone and pop a fire arrow in among them to do the extra 1-6 damage guaranteed to all adjacents in order to wipe out any minions among them. If something is moving a little too quick, I'll hit it with frost to slow it for a turn. Lightning for a daze (haven't really needed that yet). If I see something that would have an obvious vulnerability (say, a fire-critter who I suspect is vulnerable to cold) or one of my allies installs a temporary vulnerability, I pop it with a special arrow. It's not something I consider for every shot, I keep normal arrows around for my usual stuff...but if the opportunity presents itself, *boink* with a bit of extra nuisance. T |
| #23brassbaboonFeb 03, 2010 10:53:55 | Hypothetical monster arrows aside, and in answer to the OP, I run a cunning bard whose main weapon is a +3 songbow - and I keep a few +1 fire, frost, and lightning arrows (as well as some heroic-tier alchemical silver) for situational shots. This is the type of thing I was considering. Using fire arrows for minions, slowing groups at a time and dazing. The problem with the lightning arrow is that it only dazes until the end of the TARGET's next turn, which generally means you can't use it to gain combat advantage on YOUR next turn. However, you can use it with an immediate interrupt such as "disruptive strike" and if you are clever, then you can use it to gain combat advantage for a turn. But you have to hit with it, and that's where the +1 becomes a potential problem. Well, we have our next session this Sunday, and my ranger has about four each of the basic +1 ammo. I'll see how it works out. If it works OK, I'll buy more. |
| #24Ventus_FragoFeb 05, 2010 13:50:23 | I have a player who is a Drow Rogue who uses the bolts at level with his character. He's especially fond of Surprise bolts which guarantee him combat advantage on his attack. Whenever he buys anything they are of the current level, but he doesn't use them indiscriminately. Like others have said he uses them to help his control, or create advantages for himself or others in combat. He usually buys enough per level to expend his consumables gold he receives via the parcels system. Additionally since he's made it a key point to his character I make it a point as a DM to have a couple creatures use them as well so he can get them as treasure. Consumable's are valid requests on your request list to the DM. |
| #25brassbaboonFeb 07, 2010 23:23:11 | Well, we had our first session using the ammo, and it worked beautifully. I was able to daze a target using the lightning ammo, and gain combat advantage for an action point and offhand attack so that I hit four out of five times. So even with a +1 instead of a +3 the ammo worked as I had hoped. I think I'll be buying more ammo in the future. Plus I'll be asking our party arcane spellcaster to please enchant some un-enchanted ammo for me to restock while adventuring. Ammo is cool folks. You should try it. |
| #26takeFeb 08, 2010 11:33:02 | In the group I play in we have a gnoll ranger who uses enchanted bolts; along with his enchanted crossbow. Since there are only three players trying to take on a five person module, it generally behooves us to think before we dash in. Bolts such as the Transporting Bolt, Dazing Bolt, and the Dispelling Bolt really came through at key times when we were spread a bit thin. One measure was luring a group of enemies into a packed corridor and the gnoll shooting to get out of the passage way before my character leveled Wall of Swords on the area (I was playing a hybrid class Invoker/Cleric). The ammunition gives a good measure of versatility. I know that with the main party we travel in, we end up having a good deal of loose coin laying about; so shelling out say half of the gold for versatility split between ritual components and ammunition works out for the best in the long run for us. In the recent endeavor the DM allowed the dispelling bolt to help in a skill challenge involving disrupting a wizard's enchantment over the Formorian King. The ammunition is useful, not quite powerful, but useful. We ended up working out a bag of holding more or less for the enchanted ammunition, while carrying around an endless quiver for times when the expenditure of the magic ammo is not necessarily needed. Expensive, however when it comes down to splitting a five person party's loot between three people, we have room to spare. Take |