I’m hoping that nobody from my current group reads this but I’ll try not to be too one-sided regardless.
Warning:
~~~ Drama Alert ~~~
My 4e group has a lot of problems with me as a player…you know, personalities clashing. That being said, I tend to get irritated by the simplest of things but I usually don’t speak up about them. Some examples would be: saying “umm” or “uhh” in excess, chewing food like a horse, constant interruptions, and etc. These are things that annoy me that some players do each and every game. I’m impatient but I managed to hold my tongue 95% of the time. I’ve discovered that if it weren’t for this D&D campaign, I probably wouldn’t ever be caught hanging out with 2 or 3 of the 4 other players (6 total people, including myself and the DM). The fact that I wouldn’t just hang out with them doesn’t hurt my ability to enjoy playing D&D with them though.
People are different and I’m used to being around people with similar personalities; unfortunately, I’m the only one in our group with a personality such as this which I will continue defining. I was pulled aside by the DM to talk about some of these issues:
I make too many crude jokes- If someone sets themselves up for a joke, I usually take it. I’ve come to understand from the group that I shouldn’t do this at all…zero jokes at the expense of another player. Now I understand that I need to tone it down but it seems a little excessive to just not do it at all. I’m doing my best to stop it completely so that I can remain in the game but I’m a very blunt person and I’m not quick to cease all my normal personality traits that I’ve come to “develop” (Hard to break habits, whether good or bad).
I interrupt others- I absolutely hate being interrupted and there are 2 players that do this a lot. One of them likes to take over the spotlight and sometimes he will do so by interrupting others, other times he just takes a good “quiet” spot to jump in. I really can’t recall times that I interrupt people other than when I have to raise my voice a little to drown out the “spotlight guy” that’s trying to interrupt me. If my DM says I’m interrupting people then I probably am but I just don’t recall these incidents.
I have a bad attitude- My first thought is that this has a tie in with the fact that some of the other players are people I just don’t really like a whole lot. I don’t feel that I’m a negative person so I’d assume that there’s something happening within the group that’s prompting me to act in such a way. I guess that when I become irritated over someone that’s taking forever to act in-character, someone that can’t do things for themselves, someone starting yet another out-of-character conversation that is killing the mood, and etc., I tend to show it whether that be non-verbally (Which I think is the case most of the time) or speaking up.
I believe that covered all of the negative personality traits that the DM addressed. I’m sure that someone else in the group could easily give you their side but I think that based on all the info I gave, some of you should be able to pull up reasonable conclusions for and/or against both “sides”. I don’t want to leave the group, mainly because the DM makes things so interesting. No matter what group I’d join, there are going to be people that have a problem with my personality traits.
I’ve managed to change my quirks for the short-term but they slipped my mind the past 2 weeks and this week was apparently really bad. It’s difficult to be preemptive and stop the attitude or words from leaving your mouth when you’re not sure exactly what you’re looking for. For example, if we recorded our sessions with a camera and I could see what I’m doing wrong, then it’d be easy to keep my eye out for signs. At the moment, I have a couple minor examples from over a month ago and none for this last week. The DM isn’t willing to give me a signal when I’m slipping; however, he stated that he has 3 times over the past month on which I actually acknowledged, I just don’t recall those cases now.
I guess I’m posting this on here for opinions, suggestions, and the sort. Sorry that this is so long but I figured it couldn’t really hurt to get advice from people outside the group, I just hope that I provided enough information to help any of you still reading out with this. If it seems like I left parts out then ask away, I don’t mind.
Thanks ahead of time and I look forward to the replies. ^_^
(( I didn't proof-read...sorry. ))
It sounds like you already know this though.
My best suggestion would be to find people that you DO like to hang out with and ask them if they'd like to get a group together. You may need to be the DM though. At least at first. It's far easier to find players than it is to find a DM.
Yes, everyone has things that annoy them. I too passionately hate people chewing with their mouths open or getting things dirty without a care when it's 100% avoidable (Cheetos and new books, etc.).
They probably are wrestling with similar issues of "obliviousness" as they feel with you in terms of your jokes and display of disdain.
What I am interested in hearing though is how you have done with previous groups for D&D, or any other group activity.
Were there times when you believed there were no negative issues from either yourself or the others involved? Why might that have been? Did you have a certain clique of friends?
I think there are a variety of ways to go about altering one's behavior for special occasions. But the most powerful is probably to recognize that what you're trying to avoid can be a genuine problem, and not just feel as if everyone else is "overreacting" and you just have to humor them.
Personal jokes, related to any kind of character trait, are really only appropriate with people you've known a long time and who you know appreciate that sort of humor.
Stifling your sense of humor is nearly prerequisite with any formal dealings with people out in the world, to avoid putting your foot in your mouth or stepping on a land mine, especially if you're aware your humor is of the more "offensive" variety, or heavy on sarcasm. While I find it horribly unfortunate on a philosophical level, sometimes it's best to put on an "outside face" mask for dealing with people outside your in-group of family and friends.
To get a sense of your humor tastes, which most people likely haven't given all that much thought to, I recommend taking a few minutes to write down a list of the TV shows, authors, comics and other things you regularly find suits your funny bone, and after that to do the same for things you're aware *some* people seem to like, but that you just don't care for at all or outright hate. A divisive kind of subject would be "Dennis Miller," whom people tend to love or hate with no in-between. Don't forget influential family members.
The point of this is to then see what it is you like, and so you can start thinking about what jokes you make that may replicate that kind of humor. Looking on it from the outside may give a more objective view of how the humor operates. The more "niche" a particular kind of humor, of course the less likely it will go over well with people you don't know.
Any mention of personal traits or implications of family or life situations is nearly always 100% out of the question with people you don't know well and for a long time. There's too much you don't know about the person; you don't "know your audience" at all.
It's like making racial jokes at a serious political affair; it may be funny to some of those people some of the time, in private, but not out of the blue and not in that situation, and not from a person they aren't expecting to principally be telling jokes.
A good first step would be to make an apology to every member of your group, explaining that you don't mean to offend anyone with your behavior, and that you are aware sometimes your sense of humor does not agree with people. Also say you are trying to control it, and invite them to let you know if you're doing something out of bounds. This opens up some good will on their part and makes them blame you slightly less for any offenses in the future.
However, it is really not their job to police whether you are grating on them or not. They are there to play D&D, not help you develop your interpersonal relations skills.
I don't know all about your situation, obviously.
Some steps which might work though, if the others you play with are amenable, could be to communicate with them and determine more specific instances of things you've done, or at least types, and work on your avoiding those kinds of things. Don't argue with what annoys people, don't minimize their concerns (it's counterproductive).
Another option is to see a professional, either some kind of counselor or therapist for one or two sessions, with the stated goal of their helping you to express yourself better in public. Probably would want a Behavioralist if you find a Psychologist, to help you "act" differently by changing habits, but I'm not entirely sure what would be best for this particular thing.
Speaking with family members who can engage with you seriously, like parents, may also be an option.
The least obtrusive option though may be to make a deal with yourself that you will act differently during game time, and will make an effort to not be bothered by things. Complement this with "How to Win Friends and Influence People," the classic by Dale Carnegie (it's not Machiavellian as its title may imply, not really). I suspect you can get it online used for $5 or less.
Several factors can derail your efforts, and recognizing those would also be a help. When you are tired, after a full day of school or work or whatever, it can be harder to restrain certain behaviors. Similarly when intoxicated in some fashion, or influenced even by intense caffeine or even sugar "highs." Lows of nicotine and the like as well if you smoke.
Strong feelings of boredom, leading into tiredness, are never helpful for maintaining a strong front. If possible, you may work out some more "breaks" during the session for you and the others to go move about and do something else for a few minutes, or just notify the players or at least DM that you will take breaks periodically to maintain focus for when you return.
Oldguygaming,
Yeah, I get what you're saying. I enjoy playing with a couple of the players and characters and love the DM's creative and unique worlds. It's D&D but so much more open and enjoyable. Thanks for the suggestions and input.
Kouk,
Thank you, I appreciate that you took the effort to give some great insight.
I agree that they are probably oblivious to a lot of these things they do that annoy the hell out of me.
I only had one REAL group before this group and we played together for years. There were times when I annoyed them, mainly early on. We had a brief and easy going talk about it and everyone worked to improve themselves rather than me solely doing nearly everything. In regards to this current group, almost each of them has some minor issue the DM has with them and he's spoke with them one-on-one but the thing with me has been very extreme. As for a clique with my last group, I suppose maybe so. We did a lot more than just D&D together and we lived within 10 minutes of each other. They were geeks (As all of us D&D nuts are to a degree) but I wouldn't ever be embarrassed to hang out with them on a daily/weekly basis outside of D&D. I'm not sure if that answered your question exactly. If I didn't then let me know and I'll try to fill you in a bit more.
And yeah, I understand that I'm "at fault" but I wouldn't say that it's all completely my fault. I'd think that working together to limit the number of triggers that can be prevented by others (ie.- interruptions, chewing with mouth open, and etc.) would help greatly but it's going to be up to me to not offend these guys with my "crude jokes". It just so happens that I'm the only one in the group that's like this and this has never been the case in my life with games, work, school, and so on.
As for everything else, I understand what you're saying. Again, I appreciate the time you took to assist me and I'll keep it all in mind.
I suggest something similar. Be up front about it.
I have a bad attitude- My first thought is that this has a tie in with the fact that some of the other players are people I just don’t really like a whole lot. I don’t feel that I’m a negative person so I’d assume that there’s something happening within the group that’s prompting me to act in such a way. I guess that when I become irritated over someone that’s taking forever to act in-character, someone that can’t do things for themselves, someone starting yet another out-of-character conversation that is killing the mood, and etc., I tend to show it whether that be non-verbally (Which I think is the case most of the time) or speaking up.
My guess is that this is the real problem, and that if you fixed it, your other traits would become much more tolerable to the others. There are two ways to fix it: 1) get massive amounts of plastic surgery so that you can't show facial expressions or 2) change your expectations of the game, and of the players you play with.
I'll assume that you'll go with #2. When you show up for game day, tell yourself before you walk in "This is NOT my old group. They're less focussed, they're less skilled, and we'll spend a lot of time just bull **** around. But I want to play with them because they're [insert good qualities here]." Hopefully you have at least one thing to fill in that last sentence, because if you don't, I don't think this group will ever be acceptable for you.
PS Just curious, what can't the other players do for themselves? And what kind of crude jokes do you make? I have an appreciation for some of them.
#2) decide if your personality just is not going to work with these people. if not, find a group that does.
But I can manage to game with new people.
Thing is, friends are easier to be with.
We all have quirks I have quirks. I am loud and I know it. My friends don't hassle me about it. They all have quirks too. We know some things can't be taken too far. We all have our weak spots.
But we all game knowing we are friends.
Off colour remarks won't fly if you are not all friends.
Rude behaviour amongst mainly strangers will not fly well either.
Hell I'm not above standing up and telling a group to piss off if the situation merits it.
That doesn't happen among friends generally speaking for a reason, they are your friends.
Some of your behaviour is no better than some of what bothers you.
My only advice, stop playing in groups you don't like.
We didn't all sit down to talk about it but the DM pulled me aside to talk about it and apparently he spoke with the others about it without me. So they're aware of it, I have apologized, and now I'm the only one with problems that needs to fix them now or I have to leave.
Tequila,
Thanks for the help. That's a good thing to keep in mind though, I'm expecting much more out of them than they seem to be capable of delivering at the moment.
When I said they can't do things for themselves, I was actually referring to one semi-new player. He always wants our OoC opinions of what he should do/say. It becomes a little irritating after it hits the fifth time he asks. On a good note, he's the one player that I can probably help to fix things like this. Because he's new, he's much more willing to listen.
And my crude jokes tend to be the South Park variety. Not solely from that show but Kouk asked earlier what kind of humor I enjoy and that's a great example. Granted, I like a variety of humor but that tends to be one I enjoy a little more.
Icedcrow,
So could you give me an example of what things I've done that makes you say that I'm taking myself too seriously?
Tsukinousagi,
Yeah, I seem to keep getting that from people. I need to watch the "crude humor" until I'm sure that it's a person that enjoys that kind of humor or until we know each other enough for them to not take me so seriously when I joke.
In regards to this current group, almost each of them has some minor issue the DM has with them and he's spoke with them one-on-one but the thing with me has been very extreme.
Do you mean to tell us that the DM has taken every member of the game group aside and voiced concerns about their behavior?
Yeah, from what he told me. It sounds like every person has had some minor thing that he's needed to address. But the use of minor is just how I'm saying it, he didn't say how big the issues were. Why do you ask?
Kouk,
What exactly is stuff best not to ignore that you're referring to?
I also find it a bit unusual for a DM to have a heart to heart with each player about something he would prefer they stop, though, as usually setting some ground rules of mutual respect is enough.
But things like doing activities other than playing the game during the game session, laptops/cell phones etc., not bathing adequately before the sessions, physical contact with the other gamers without their appreciating any such, constantly disrupting the game with "Oh I just remembered this movie," and cheating and the like would warrant individual talks at least.
EDIT: "Talks" not necessarily being more than, "You seem to be doing X a lot, please stop doing that."
Nearly anything a player does consistently and that takes away from the enjoyment of the other players, including the DM, should be addressed in some way or other. The DM being direct to the person involved, rather than stating your issues at the game table, can then be seen as consideration.
I don't know your DM in question, but typically I think a new player is given one or two sessions to adjust to the atmosphere of the existing group, and then things that stand out are addressed.
Either the DM perceives that something is bothering the other players (potentially him or herself), or has been alerted to such by one or more of those players who would like the DM to address the issue.
A lot of players will "put up with" stuff an unnecessarily long time to not "cause conflict" or because they worry it is only them who has a problem with what's happening, and so I think normally the DM notices it as a trend, or is told privately (EDIT: by a fed up player, long after the behavior has been noticed).
Some players may of course just punch you in the face; you never know with strangers.
Speaking of which, two of them have raunchy BO. And it's not just, "Forgot to put deodorant on and kind of smell like a gym" BO, it's the "Sour and makes you want to hurl" BO. -_-'
And I have a feeling that the problems that the group have with me was brought up by a player behind my back to a bulk of the rest of the group. If this is the case then I believe that this would have happened before he spoke with me. I'm guessing that this is the case because of how some of the conversations went.
What I see happening is as you get botherd by the other players' quirks and keep quiet about it, eventually you can't keep quiet about it, but instead of saying what it was that bothered you an hour ago, you make a rude joke about something that happened at the moment. You making that joke is relieving yourself the tension you built up.
Even if given something another player is doing is a "legitimate gripe", you're not in a position to say anything to be taken in serious consideration. To lighten the tension of the group, perhaps you can try a little self-deprecating joke akin to the Curse Jar. When you get out of line with a rude joke, hit your forehead with the palm of your hand and put a dollar in a There I Go Again Jar. Every $5 or so use the money to buy snack food for everyone. Eventually the idea would be the jar remains empty or a dollar sits there for a long time before it gets a friend. Perhaps other players could contribute their own dollars for a particular annoying quirk they might have, but let them volunteer the idea on their own when they see you smacking your forehead a few times. You know things are going really well if they let you take a dollar back out of the jar. However, be warned. If you start to resent the There I Go Again Jar and sarcastically hit your forehead, then the situation is getting worse. You may find you can't be D&D friends with these people. That wouldn't be making you a bad person or a villain, just that the personality clash is too much to make things work.
Here are a few techniques that may help you work through some of the anger and defuse your triggers as well as help you be more positive about your group in general: Anchor Hunting, Submodalities,More Submodalities, Anchoring. The NLP (Neuro-Linguistic Programming) techniques I'm suggesting here work well in finding out what bothers you, help you experience your triggers in more useful ways and allow you to create positive triggers - making habits easy to not "break" but "remake." And you don't need any high-cost professional or massive training to use them. The above are some of the better sites (some others talk as if NLP were an odd form of legaleese!) I found (lol and with the least amount of pushy advertising) in looking up the subjects.
I tend to interrupt too - usually when I'm excited about something or want more information. One thing that might help there is to have a notepad and as someone else is talking, jot down any observations or questions you have so that you don't forget them.
Also, is the DM giving each of your PCs enough time to shine? For instance, you talk about the one player who likes to take the spotlight. Can you talk to the DM and discuss a better way to handle this so that everyone gets spotlight time?
IMO, interrupting another PC in character isn't always a bad thing - if you're having a talk with a prospective employer, or other important NPC, you might be perfectly in your rights to bring up a point. In this case it's generally called a CONVERSATION, not an interruption.
If your DM hasn't already done so, ask him to specifically state under what circumstances he feels an interruption is warranted and when you should be silent and wait, and ask him to make sure that everyone has a chance to talk. As for your jokes, each person has their own sort of humor that grates. For instance my roommate loves bathroom and sexual humor to the point where I'm often ready to pull out a sword and lop his head off (for REAL, not IC, ah if I could only get away with it). And for me, racist humor makes me purely furious. Joking about someone's shortcomings is probably not wise, and for that, Navar's There I Go Again Jar might be especially appropriate, while you're working with the above methods. Even better, whenever someone ticks you off, fire off your "happy anchor" and you might not feel the need to make unwanted jokes.
For me, really witty jokes - especially if done in character, are the lifeblood of a fun D&D game. They're not a problem for me as a DM unless they then derail the session.
Again, for all your alleged faults, lack of courage is one you don't have. Much luck to you.
It sounds as if this group of people is not a group you're going to be able to hang out with comfortably. I really like this game, but it's not worth the level of struggling your current group is going to require to achieve sufficient harmony just to share a room for a few hours at a stretch. The fact that you find two of the members of the group physically intolerable, the fact that the DM feels he needs to teach everyone else in the room how to act among other adults and the level of effort you're claiming to have to exert to share space with these people are pretty big hints that you should stop spending time with them.
I asked because it seems really odd to me that the DM should have to correct the behavior of everyone in the group. There's some deeper dysfunction there than your impulse control or your sense of humor.
It sounds as if this group of people is not a group you're going to be able to hang out with comfortably. I really like this game, but it's not worth the level of struggling your current group is going to require to achieve sufficient harmony just to share a room for a few hours at a stretch. The fact that you find two of the members of the group physically intolerable, the fact that the DM feels he needs to teach everyone else in the room how to act among other adults and the level of effort you're claiming to have to exert to share space with these people are pretty big hints that you should stop spending time with them.
Very much agreed. I had wanted to point this out, but got off track.
Now if the OP has had similar problems in the past, it certainly cannot hurt him to work on his own issues. And hey we ALL have issues. But the DM needing to have private talks with everyone is a blazing red flag. LOL as a DM my private talks with my players mostly either involve, "umm, so-and-so is a bit of a wallflower, do you think you could focus a bit on drawing them out and RPing with them," or are RPs of secret information/quests that the PC is involved in.
Only 4 times in 30 years have I had to have a talk about behavioral issues with my players. Once when a bf/gf pair were dragging their bad relationship into gameplay, once when I banned a disruptive player, once when I banned a very derranged other DM from our group and once when a RP issue was misinterpreted as a potential discomfort between players.
The fact that the DM has had behavioral issues with every single player leads me to think that either 1) the group is made up of some hugely dysfunctional people or 2) the DM is highly dysfunctional (which might be the simplest explanation).
Since the OP has mentioned some issues which could potentially be real ones, I hesitate to give him a "tell them to bleep themselves" response. At the same time, I begin to wonder if it's all as bad as the DM seems to state.
In regards to the DMs handling of the other players issues, it sounds to me like the DM was trying to soften the impact of his behavioral decree by making it sound like it was normal. If i feel uncomfortable telling someone something like that i might say the same thing. He may not have been comfortable with the role he had to fill. If you and him dont have an issue, but the other players were telling him "deal with this", his crown compelled him to ablige.
*Alignment shift time!*
I too have been in your situation. One slightly manipulative, yet perfectly acceptable tactic might be what i call reverse submission therapy (paten pending). Basically getting THEM used to YOU. Its hard to get used to someone if you only spend 1 day a week with them. So take the people your fine with, find out what thier other hobbies are, and invite them to go do stuff with you.
Make sure you dont invite yourself, you set it up, and invite them. Short activities or things that require focus but are still layed back. Like Ren-Fairs or movies. Sadly its kinda like dating. lol
If it goes well then after a few weeks your friends and thats 1 less person likely to have an issue with you. All the better if you do it with several.
The issue is double edged, your not used to them and they arent used to you. Difference is that they are established already. Get people used to you and you can in turn work towards getting them to shower and use a feedbag... This doesnt mean you dont still have to work on your faults too, It just means that you have a bit more of a behavioral safezone.
Another solution that might help them loosten up is adding a parody game to your schedual. Offer to run a game of paranoia, or play munchkin while you wait for others to arive.
Finally, im curious, you stated that you didnt like it when people broke character, but if your staying in caracter so much, how do you find time to make jokes?
Thanks for those techniques, I'll see if I can use them and get them to work for me. The DM tries to give chances for characters to shine but with the one I mentioned before, he tries to sort of create shining moment where not normally intended. When we have big IC group conversations, he always tries to speak up first. Not sure if that helps you any on that topic.
And those jokes that I say that upset some of the players is OOC, otherwise it wouldn't be such a problem. =P
Kaganfindel & LionLemur,
Yeah, it's possible that it could be something greater. As for quitting the group, that's a last resort type of thing.
That's a good point that it should be a red flag that he's having to speak with everyone about different issues. I guess there are a lot of possibilities that we're not going to know about unless I was to confront the DM about all these things but I don't know how well that conversation would go. lol
Gogocharlie,
The DM told me that he doesn't like these problems he has with me either, it's not strictly a problem among a couple players. A couple of the players are difficult for me to be around at times so I've been trying not to spend too much time with said players in order to maintain my sanity. -_-'
There are people that break character on a VERY regular basis. Sometimes it's fun to jump in with inside-jokes and funny little things; however, there are some players that just break character non-stop and it gets redundant. I admit that when I'm with people like this, I break character more than I normally would but because I'm an impatient person. I still get annoyed when it happens too much because it slows things down and very little gets done as a result. You can have fun and joke OOC (You could think of joke time like little breaks) but limit yourself so that we can enjoy D&D for what it is.
Thanks for the great replies, everyone. I've enjoyed reading your opinions and suggestions. Monday is going to be our next session, which will be a "grab bag" game but if things don't go well then I'm not allowed to play in our Thursday D&D campaign. Worst case scenario, I can just avoid talking OOC as much as possible...it's worked before but is FAR from a long-term solution.
Theres different types of groups out there.
My group plays D&D like others play poker. When its your turn do what you need to, when its not...
Drink, smoke, spit, and brag about your girth while offering to take your buddy's girls off thier hands for a while...
Ok we can't smoke or spit where we play, there are kids about, im the onlyone with a GF, and half of them are allergic to booze... but the mentality is there! lol
If RP is the focus for you, and you have issues with people... Try finding a play by post game. You can RP all you want, and all OoC happens in a seperate thread.
I use mythweavers for my fix between gamedays.
Another option that you could search for... I used to play with a group that had half thier members MOVE a week after it started. So we played it entirely over skype with maptools. Maybe theres a site out there specifically for these types of games?
And whats a 'grab bag' game?
As for your quirks...well, everyone else has already addressed them and I can't really argue with sound advice like "don't make offensive jokes/don't interrupt people." Without actually seeing you guys play its difficult to address the "bad attitude" line, do you complain/get grumpy if you get bad rolls or if someone goes with a plan you don't agree with etc? It might just be a combination of the interrupting/joke thing as combining those two would certainly make for bad attitude. I dunno, bad attitude is incredibly vague and I imagine each person would have a different definition of what qualifies as bad behavior...and unfortunately asking about it can come off as rather offensive and would likely make the DM cite that as an example.
I think in this situation what I would want to do is sit everyone down and hash out issues. I think one of the issues might be the DM essentially trying to do that on his own...which might be one of the reasons why he had to pull every player aside. From your attitude it seems like your games run fairly well, and the fact that you're making this post shows that its at least good enough for you to want to continue playing, plus you've only cited the interrupting player as doing something that really irks you so unless you're just an incredibly patient player there shouldn't be a reason for the DM to have to pull everyone aside. In any event, I'd say just have a group discussion...I'd suggest making it more of a playstyle conversation instead of "This is what I hate about you, please stop." Point out your own flaws first and ask if there's anything else that irks them, then in a non-offensive/polite manner talk about the stuff that irks you. It'd be a good idea to mention the players strengths too, even if they're just small compliments like "you had a really good plan back when we were doing X" or "You saved our butts against that ogre" etc. Basically, just don't come off as hostile/push people to the defensive.
No, they don't get agitated unless it drastically slowing down as a result of another character's (IC, not really OOC) actions. And I've tried to play on RPG boards but they never work out.
The "grab bag" games are smaller time RPG's that aren't very well known, or at least not to the community here: Penny For Your Thoughts, Dread, and a couple others I can't think of are some we've done so far.
Chaosturtle,
I agree that there really wasn't any info given to specify a bad attitude. I think you're right, it just might be a combination of things that they wrapped up to call a bad attitude. Unfortunately, when I was confronted about all of this, none of the times was I given very solid examples of what I did that I couldn't really catch on my own.
I had more issues with people other than them interrupting. Hmm, I'm not sure how well sitting down and talking about it as a group will go. Pointing out what you already realize are your flaws and then having others add to it if you missed anything could help but if it doesn't become a "This is what I hate about you, please stop" type of convo then I don't think things will really be getting fixed. That quote for the convo, which I used from your words, has already taken place on a smaller scale so I don't think it would hurt anymore to go through with that. But hey, that's just my guess.
I agree, if people are conscious of these problems then they might actually catch themselves, kind of like they want me to do for my jokes and "bad attitude". And yeah since I was out to fix my problems all on my own and I have slipped, apparently, because it's a habit that I can't always catch on my own.
It's a fairly long list, divided amongst all the players; however, I get annoyed by lots of little things. The major things that I have trouble just trying to ignore isn't very big.
I actually got them all to have a sit-down with me after our "grab bag" game. I took the suggestion someone made earlier and made it mostly a discussion about what I do that irritates others. It was going smoothly to start until it come to the one douche (Can we say that here? O-o) that I always have problems with. Things went up and down a lot and I thought I made many good points that constantly got swat to the ground. They made some good points to but it wasn't as calm of a discussion as I had hoped for, mostly thanks to the douche.
To keep a long story short, you guys were right...this group is not for me. I discovered that the DM is also a little bit...I want to say under-handed but I don't know if that's the right word for it, with some of the way he says things. Like, there's more to what he's saying than he's actually leading on. On another note regarding the DM, when he spoke with me weeks ago where he gave me the whole "shape up or ship out" sort of speach, he said something that I now find to be laughable. He said, "If you leave now (the group campaign) then I will have no hard feelings. If you stay and work to improve but fail, I will have hard feelings." Something I'm missing with that one? I'd think that walking about without trying would be lame but actually giving effort to improve for the entirety of the group would be a little nobler; regardless of the being unsuccessful part, at least you tried.
I think that this will probably be a good thing in the long run. Having to bite my tongue so much with this group was making me go crazy. Oh well, guess it's time to find a better group with fewer mind-numbingly frustrating players. ^_^'
"If you leave now (the group campaign) then I will have no hard feelings. If you stay and work to improve but fail, I will have hard feelings."
Err?
Very very strange. Consider yourself well rid of these crazy people.
Hope you find a new/better group soon!
He talked to you about issues, that he felt warranted a "shape up or ship out" stance.
If you left the group, then he'd chalk it up to incompatibilities and not care about you too much personally, and likely never really think of you again.
If you stayed in the group but *failed* to "shape up," that means you continued to annoy the group while you were a part of it, which adds up to (for them) a less enjoyable time for those sessions, and likely involved your character more tightly in the campaign so it's harder to make the PC *poof* out of existence.
Since he was not your friend and apparently had no interest in being such, it was a "business" proposition, of "Let's not waste each other's time here" at that first talk with you. And failing to "reform" meant that in fact you "wasted each other's time" whereas "succeeding" would have meant you all continued swimmingly. If you doubt an employee can do a task, but he insists he can and you OK it, and then he screws up and you lose a client, yeah it's more annoying.
That's not a 100% equivalence obviously -- because this is a social game we're talking about and not high stakes anythings, he's not your boss and so on -- but it was along those lines for that DM.
Not the tack I would have probably taken, but I also don't run campaigns with more or less "strangers" in the first place.
No, that statement makes sense.
He talked to you about issues, that he felt warranted a "shape up or ship out" stance.
If you left the group, then he'd chalk it up to incompatibilities and not care about you too much personally, and likely never really think of you again.
If you stayed in the group but *failed* to "shape up," that means you continued to annoy the group while you were a part of it, which adds up to (for them) a less enjoyable time for those sessions, and likely involved your character more tightly in the campaign so it's harder to make the PC *poof* out of existence.
Since he was not your friend and apparently had no interest in being such, it was a "business" proposition, of "Let's not waste each other's time here" at that first talk with you. And failing to "reform" meant that in fact you "wasted each other's time" whereas "succeeding" would have meant you all continued swimmingly. If you doubt an employee can do a task, but he insists he can and you OK it, and then he screws up and you lose a client, yeah it's more annoying.
That's not a 100% equivalence obviously -- because this is a social game we're talking about and not high stakes anythings, he's not your boss and so on -- but it was along those lines for that DM.
Not the tack I would have probably taken, but I also don't run campaigns with more or less "strangers" in the first place.
I understand where you're coming from...and at the same time, "if you stay but work to improve, and fail" is pretty screwy.
If you work to improve you should gain some kudos. He tried, it didn't work as per the desires of the DM. They can mutually say goodbye. "I tried, you tried, we all tried, we're obviously incompatible."
If he stays and doesn't work to "improve" THEN the DM is within his rights to kick him out, and the player is in the wrong for not trying.
But the DM is pretty much setting it up as "go now or go soon. Play/be my way or screw you, and I pretty much expect you to end up leaving." IOW the DM seems pretty much determined that the player WILL screw up and will leave.
If that's the case the DM should just come out and say, "look, I feel you and I are incompatible, and sorry but we should go our seperate ways, because I as a DM am not going to cut you a bit of slack even for trying." Don't hold out false hope. Don't accuse someone of failing in advance.
Now if as a DM you feel this...well that's sad, but that's what it is. Again, be honest and admit you'll never be compatible rather than stringing them along.
So he expected that the player should know himself whether it was something he could do, or not do, and took him at it.
That said, have you ever been tested for Asperger's Syndrome? Just from your own self-description you seem to have some of the lack of social awareness and the tendancy towards being 'over-stimulated' by little things that someone with Asperger's might have. Not understanding people's expectations of social behavior is another red flag.
People with Asperger's often have above average intelligence. They also often have intense obsessions with one or two specific subjects or hobbies. In short - I suspect that statistically there is a high concentration of people with Asperger's among the D&D community!
If you do have AS it's not really a thing that gets 'cured'. But understanding it and yourself could help you out, and you could benefit from talking with other AS people as well.
I may be way off base with this, and if so I'll beg your pardon in advance. I'm definitely not a psychologist. But if you experience this kind of thing a lot in your life it is definitely worth looking into. You can read a lot about Asperger's on the internet, but you should definitely see a professional for a real diagnosis.
Best of luck either way.
Thanks for the input. I looked into it but based off those few pages about it that I read, I highly doubt that's something I have.
Anyways...seems that this thread is pretty much done. Thanks for all the replies, everyone. I already found a new group. =P