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Duo Campaign

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
baltagh
Jan 10, 2013 21:39:34 A friend and I will be embarking on a campaign together with a DM. He will be playing a rogu, now I just need to figure out what I want to play. I'm thinking a defender character would be best to keep the attention away from him, so that he can apply the damage.

Now my question, a knight or a cavalier? I have an equal interest in both and have read guides on both. I'm not sure if the knights better tanking outweighs the light healing a cavalier can provide for a duo.

Any thoughts or tie breakers would be most appreciated.
#2
Matyr
Jan 10, 2013 22:33:01 A few questions:

Are you playing 4e? I assume you are. The rest of my comments will be based on this.

You say you have read the guides? If so you should know the answer is never Cavalier.

Will you two be the only two player?

What is the experience level of the DM?

What do you invision your character doing?

#3
baltagh
Jan 11, 2013 6:30:43 We will be playing 4e. I know the knight is supposed to be the ultimate defender, but with only two PCs wasn't sure if they cavalier's utility would give it an edge. The DM is quite experienced. My plan for the character was to grab and keep the attention of the baddies while the rogue kills them. Just the basic tank. Since the rogue will only be doing damage I wasn't sure if the knight would be able to just tank everything happily, or if the light healing/utility of the cavalier would be wanted to make the tank a little more self sufficient.
#4
Matyr
Jan 11, 2013 6:35:13 So the Knight is in no ways the ultimate defender. I wouldn't even list him in the top 5.

Why don't you make a Bravlord and do that? Make sure the rogue has some level of MBA you can grant him (being a brutal scoundrel and/or taking a melee training of some form. Or being a thief).
#5
baltagh
Jan 11, 2013 12:25:14 Wow I'm confused now! Been searching on here and googling looking at options, and just about everyone lists the knight as top dog.

I'm not trying to argue, just getting more info. All of my limited experience is with a shaman. So from what I'm seeing on the builder:
Warlord - Good defenses, tanks by enabling the quick death of its foes.
Knight - High defenses, keeps foes close and punishes those who done or attack others.
Cavalier - High defenses, Not as good at punishments, but master of mounted attacks and light healing

These are the guides that I've been looking at:community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

Not sure if they are outdated and I'm getting bad info. Thank you for taking the time to help me out.



#6
GelatinousOctahedron
Jan 11, 2013 13:33:20 Knight is fine if you want to go that way, but if any class is top defender its the weaponmaster fighter.

Warlord is a leader whose specialty is helping allies kill things quickly. It doesn't normally "tank", though it is a good choice for a second PC if the rogue has a good basic attack.

I would say a pre essentials paladin with lay on hands would give you some healing for the party and is close to a cavalier in play, but will be more effective if built right.
#7
Litmus
Jan 11, 2013 17:34:05 I'd go a leader over a defender. Leaders are designed to deal with damage output from challenges that are designed for a full party of five (slight oversimplification, but you get the idea); not something you should typically need for 2 player encounters. A hybrid Leader/Striker could be a good option (Sentinel/Ranger maybe?).
#8
Matyr
Jan 11, 2013 23:56:14
Wow I'm confused now! Been searching on here and googling looking at options, and just about everyone lists the knight as top dog.

I'm not trying to argue, just getting more info. All of my limited experience is with a shaman. So from what I'm seeing on the builder:
Warlord - Good defenses, tanks by enabling the quick death of its foes.
Knight - High defenses, keeps foes close and punishes those who done or attack others.
Cavalier - High defenses, Not as good at punishments, but master of mounted attacks and light healing

These are the guides that I've been looking at:community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

Not sure if they are outdated and I'm getting bad info. Thank you for taking the time to help me out.

It isn't that you are getting bad advice from the guides, but the guides focus on how to be a good version of the class you are going for. The vampire guide focuses on how to be a good vampire, but the class itself is terrible. The guides don't give you an idea of how the classes compare to the others (because they aren't designed to. That isn't their purpose).

The punishment of the knight is very limited, and they have a problem dealing with things that hinder them early on, or outside of their limited range. For defenders they don't have especially high defenses and have an average punishment. At low levels they don't have an easy way to double punish (like the berserker does for instance) and no way to keep things close.

Warlords are leaders, not defenders. And really nobody should be "tanking" in the MMO sense. As nobody is healing in the MMO sense either.

As far as cavalier goes, in almost every imaginable way the Opaladin is just better. At low levels both have an easy option for a double punish through Battle Awareness and neither one of them will heal enough to be really useful.

One of the big things is how the DM is going to tailor the game to you. DnD assumes, and the guides assume, you are playing in a party of 4 or more. It has to be changed into a much different game with only 2 of you and, at least until you get a good grip on what you are doing, the combinations of Striker/Leader or Defender/Leader are just going to be a better bet.
#9
baltagh
Jan 12, 2013 0:57:59 I get it now. Not really the best, just the best way to do those builds.

You and Litmus have certainly convinced me that a leader is the way to go. I'm not sure how the DM is going to run things, but it does make alot more sense to have such a well rounded character. Now I just have to decide which to go with.  Now I'm looking at Warlord, Templar, Runepriest, and Sentinel. Just happy I have a couple weeks to decide.
#10
Matyr
Jan 12, 2013 1:31:53
I get it now. Not really the best, just the best way to do those builds.

You and Litmus have certainly convinced me that a leader is the way to go. I'm not sure how the DM is going to run things, but it does make alot more sense to have such a well rounded character. Now I just have to decide which to go with.  Now I'm looking at Warlord, Templar, Runepriest, and Sentinel. Just happy I have a couple weeks to decide.

Bravlord does really well in small groups. Especially if you can convince your rogue to be a good little weapon.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 baltagh Jan 10, 2013 21:39:34	A friend and I will be embarking on a campaign together with a DM. He will be playing a rogu, now I just need to figure out what I want to play. I'm thinking a defender character would be best to keep the attention away from him, so that he can apply the damage. Now my question, a knight or a cavalier? I have an equal interest in both and have read guides on both. I'm not sure if the knights better tanking outweighs the light healing a cavalier can provide for a duo. Any thoughts or tie breakers would be most appreciated.
#2 Matyr Jan 10, 2013 22:33:01	A few questions: Are you playing 4e? I assume you are. The rest of my comments will be based on this. You say you have read the guides? If so you should know the answer is never Cavalier. Will you two be the only two player? What is the experience level of the DM? What do you invision your character doing?
#3 baltagh Jan 11, 2013 6:30:43	We will be playing 4e. I know the knight is supposed to be the ultimate defender, but with only two PCs wasn't sure if they cavalier's utility would give it an edge. The DM is quite experienced. My plan for the character was to grab and keep the attention of the baddies while the rogue kills them. Just the basic tank. Since the rogue will only be doing damage I wasn't sure if the knight would be able to just tank everything happily, or if the light healing/utility of the cavalier would be wanted to make the tank a little more self sufficient.
#4 Matyr Jan 11, 2013 6:35:13	So the Knight is in no ways the ultimate defender. I wouldn't even list him in the top 5. Why don't you make a Bravlord and do that? Make sure the rogue has some level of MBA you can grant him (being a brutal scoundrel and/or taking a melee training of some form. Or being a thief).
#5 baltagh Jan 11, 2013 12:25:14	Wow I'm confused now! Been searching on here and googling looking at options, and just about everyone lists the knight as top dog. I'm not trying to argue, just getting more info. All of my limited experience is with a shaman. So from what I'm seeing on the builder: Warlord - Good defenses, tanks by enabling the quick death of its foes. Knight - High defenses, keeps foes close and punishes those who done or attack others. Cavalier - High defenses, Not as good at punishments, but master of mounted attacks and light healing These are the guides that I've been looking at:community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... Not sure if they are outdated and I'm getting bad info. Thank you for taking the time to help me out.
#6 GelatinousOctahedron Jan 11, 2013 13:33:20	Knight is fine if you want to go that way, but if any class is top defender its the weaponmaster fighter. Warlord is a leader whose specialty is helping allies kill things quickly. It doesn't normally "tank", though it is a good choice for a second PC if the rogue has a good basic attack. I would say a pre essentials paladin with lay on hands would give you some healing for the party and is close to a cavalier in play, but will be more effective if built right.
#7 Litmus Jan 11, 2013 17:34:05	I'd go a leader over a defender. Leaders are designed to deal with damage output from challenges that are designed for a full party of five (slight oversimplification, but you get the idea); not something you should typically need for 2 player encounters. A hybrid Leader/Striker could be a good option (Sentinel/Ranger maybe?).
#8 Matyr Jan 11, 2013 23:56:14	Wow I'm confused now! Been searching on here and googling looking at options, and just about everyone lists the knight as top dog. I'm not trying to argue, just getting more info. All of my limited experience is with a shaman. So from what I'm seeing on the builder: Warlord - Good defenses, tanks by enabling the quick death of its foes. Knight - High defenses, keeps foes close and punishes those who done or attack others. Cavalier - High defenses, Not as good at punishments, but master of mounted attacks and light healing These are the guides that I've been looking at:community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... Not sure if they are outdated and I'm getting bad info. Thank you for taking the time to help me out. It isn't that you are getting bad advice from the guides, but the guides focus on how to be a good version of the class you are going for. The vampire guide focuses on how to be a good vampire, but the class itself is terrible. The guides don't give you an idea of how the classes compare to the others (because they aren't designed to. That isn't their purpose). The punishment of the knight is very limited, and they have a problem dealing with things that hinder them early on, or outside of their limited range. For defenders they don't have especially high defenses and have an average punishment. At low levels they don't have an easy way to double punish (like the berserker does for instance) and no way to keep things close. Warlords are leaders, not defenders. And really nobody should be "tanking" in the MMO sense. As nobody is healing in the MMO sense either. As far as cavalier goes, in almost every imaginable way the Opaladin is just better. At low levels both have an easy option for a double punish through Battle Awareness and neither one of them will heal enough to be really useful. One of the big things is how the DM is going to tailor the game to you. DnD assumes, and the guides assume, you are playing in a party of 4 or more. It has to be changed into a much different game with only 2 of you and, at least until you get a good grip on what you are doing, the combinations of Striker/Leader or Defender/Leader are just going to be a better bet.
#9 baltagh Jan 12, 2013 0:57:59	I get it now. Not really the best, just the best way to do those builds. You and Litmus have certainly convinced me that a leader is the way to go. I'm not sure how the DM is going to run things, but it does make alot more sense to have such a well rounded character. Now I just have to decide which to go with. Now I'm looking at Warlord, Templar, Runepriest, and Sentinel. Just happy I have a couple weeks to decide.
#10 Matyr Jan 12, 2013 1:31:53	I get it now. Not really the best, just the best way to do those builds. You and Litmus have certainly convinced me that a leader is the way to go. I'm not sure how the DM is going to run things, but it does make alot more sense to have such a well rounded character. Now I just have to decide which to go with. Now I'm looking at Warlord, Templar, Runepriest, and Sentinel. Just happy I have a couple weeks to decide. Bravlord does really well in small groups. Especially if you can convince your rogue to be a good little weapon.