Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Littha Dec 11, 2008 7:45:05	I have just started a new campaign and one of my players is playing a half celestial favored soul. He is worshiping one of the gods in my campaigns pantheon with the Fire and War domains and he wants to have Continual flame cast on his wings basically as an act of worship to the god. I'm fine with the idea but i want to know if there are any specific rules for doing this and if I'm missing something game breaking there.
#2 xcirrusx Dec 11, 2008 8:06:01	Sounds like this could be simply a flavor issue, why not just let his wings burn like this, but it grants no effect other than it looks like they're on fire. As for the the spell itself, he cannot cast it on his wings period, it says object.
#3 Littha Dec 11, 2008 8:23:56	i suppose i could do that but it would make little sense that giant burning wings spread no light... although i might let him have the continual flame and make him massively easy to spot by monsters, no sneaking around with big burning wings
#4 xcirrusx Dec 11, 2008 9:36:35	houserule a spell the grant continual flame on a body part.
#5 drmorganes Dec 11, 2008 10:28:04	Honestly? This is not a big deal. Half-celestials carry a pretty hefty Level Adjustment, so you're what? Level 5 at least? At this level, Continual Flame on somebody's wings just isn't a big deal. The spell does nothing except provide light, is easily countered by magical darkness, and does provide a pretty nifty look. Let him do it, and pay costs normally. I'd probably make him pay the 1.5 multiplier for non-affinity enchantments. It would be a good idea to make it clear to the other players that you're doing this as an exception based on valid roleplaying reasons, and that everyone else is NOT automatically cleared for enchanting hands, feet, tails, and other body parts.
#6 Littha Dec 11, 2008 11:31:58	well he will be happy, i was worried about being able to emit light without using a hand to hold the torch but i guess at 5th level that dosent really matter too much in any case Edit: well i spoke to him and he is happy about it and gave me a prestige class he made for his character, im all for making the player happy but it seems to have a lot of bonuses that i think would overpower the rest of the PCs [code]Bladefire Valkyrie/Banefire Hellion A bladefire valkyrie is the foremost of a deities hunters, they seek out evil in all places it hides and purges it with holy flames, Only angelic beings can realistically take this prestige class and even then they will most likely be Cleric, Paladins or Favoured Souls. (Note: This class can be taken by a fiendish servent of an evil god just as easily, replace all references of Good to Evil, Banefire Hellions are Lawful Evil) Requirements: To qualify to become a Bladefire Valkyrie, a character must meet all the following criteria: Size and Type: Outsider, Good alignment or subtype Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks, Knowledge (the planes) 4 ranks. Feat: Weapon Specialisation (Great sword, Trident or Long sword) Spells: Able to cast at least second level divine spells Special: Must have acted as a judge, inquisitor or related role (Seeking and finding Evil or chaos in any form counts, Bounty hunters do not as they are doing if for the money). Must Worship a god with the Fire or War Domain. Must be able to fly (good manoeuvrability or better). Hit Dice: d10 Skill points: 2 + Int modifer/level Class Sills: Craft, Concentration, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge(Religion),Knowledge( Arcana), Sense Motive Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special Spells Per Day/Spells Known 1st +1 0 0 2 Holy Order/ Divine Proclamation ---------- 2nd +2 0 0 3 +1 Existing 3rd +3 1 1 3 Burning Fury --------- 4th +4 1 1 4 Sight Of Alignments +1 Existing 5th +5 1 1 4 Heavens Wrath --------- 6th +6 2 2 5 +1 Existing 7th +7 2 2 5 Judgement --------- 8th +8 3 3 6 Meteor Attack +1 Existing 9th +9 3 3 6 Archangels Power --------- 10th +10 4 4 7 Flaming Apotheosis +1 Existing Weapon and Armour Proficiency: Bladefire Valkyries are proficient with all simple and martial weapons all kinds of armour and all Shields including tower shields. Spells per Day/Spells Known: At each even level, a Bladefire Valkyrie gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in a divine spell-casting class to which he belonged before adding the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (such as the bonus Turning Hit dice of a Cleric). If he had more than one divine spell-casting class before becoming a geometer, he must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining spells per day and spells known. Holy Order: A Bladefire Valkyrie is driven to seek out and destroy evil in all its forms; however they are not past working with evil characters for the greater good. Upon taking the first level of the class the valkyrie gains the Lawful and Good Subtypes and her alignment changes to Lawful good if it wasn’t already even if her deity’s alignment does not match this. Divine Proclamation: The Native plane of the Vakire changes to that of her gods at her first level; she loses the native subtype if she had it. However she may still be resurrected as a native creature if she could be before entering this class. The Valkyrie is bound by the orders of her god to hunt and destroy evil at any cost; she will commit acts of great evil herself or assist evil creatures so long as the eventual outcome will be a diminishing of the world’s evil. Her alignment will not change from Good even whilst committing evil acts so long as her goal is the elimination of evil eventually. Burning Fury: At 3rd level and higher, a Bladefire Valkyrie can, as a move action, imbue any melee weapon she wields with cleansing flames. The imbued weapon deals an extra 1d6 points of Good and Fire damage on each hit. The effect lasts for 1 minute and may be dismissed as a free action. She can use this ability a number of times per day equal to her class level. If the weapon already has a magical effect that allows it to deal energy damage, that effect is suppressed for the duration of the elemental weapon effect. When a Bladefire Valkyrie reaches 5th level, this ability improves. The extra damage remains the same, but on a successful critical hit, the weapon releases a burst of energy that deals even more damage of the same type (for a total of 3d6). The additional damage is 2d6 points for weapons with a
#7 liquid150 Dec 11, 2008 14:12:57	just tell him that sure, you can do that. it's a permanent faerie fire effect, only red/orange.
#8 Littha Dec 12, 2008 6:34:52	UHH... this guy wont stop.. seriously considering posting him in the 101 worst players thread, can you use the Extra item space feat from SS to add an equipment slot to wings? as wings traditionally are limbs i cant see why not but it seems a bit... streched im getting to the point where i may just kill him and make him roll a core class+race combo
#9 liquid150 Dec 12, 2008 7:56:38	holy flying monkeys!!! i just looked at that PrC... this guy trying to break your campaign or something? what are the other PC's? they better have some serious power for him to even be remotely considered to be allowed to do this....
#10 Littha Dec 12, 2008 8:07:10	We have a Wizard a Cleric and a Rogue, his argument is that with the -4 level ajustment he would have as a celestial with Favoured Soul 6/Valkyrie 10 competing with a 20th level wizard or cleric he wouldnt be overpowered.... im considering letting him have it and just filling the campagn with monsters with fire immunity...
#11 liquid150 Dec 12, 2008 8:13:11	We have a Wizard a Cleric and a Rogue, his argument is that with the -4 level ajustment he would have as a celestial with Favoured Soul 6/Valkyrie 10 competing with a 20th level wizard or cleric he wouldnt be overpowered.... im considering letting him have it and just filling the campagn with monsters with fire immunity... that's fairly dependent on the skill and experience of the other players. and you might have an idea there ;) he's got the character he wants, and doesn't decimate the campaign. he might not like it but hey, lots of outsiders are immune to fire...what can he expect :D
#12 Zherog Dec 12, 2008 9:43:31	I didn't look closely at the benefits of the Prestige Class; the "basics" (BAB, saves, spells, etc), look decent. It seems from other comments, though, that there's some serious issues with the abilities. However, it's missing skill points and a list of class skills. ;) Also, I think the pre-reqs could be written a bit better. My hunch is he meets the pre-reqs without any trouble at all. That's pretty typical of player-designed classes. I'd look for a feat that fits the flavor of the class but is mechanically weak and add it to the pre-reqs. There's lots of them around - Toughness, for example. can you use the Extra item space feat from SS to add an equipment slot to wings? as wings traditionally are limbs i cant see why not but it seems a bit... streched Help an old man out. What's SS?
#13 Littha Dec 12, 2008 9:49:22	Savage Species
#14 Zherog Dec 12, 2008 9:52:45	Doh! I should've known that. Damn senility. I'll try to remember to take a peek at it tonight, but just off the top of my head I don't see any problem with exchanging a feat for allowing his wings to serve as another set of limbs for a magic item.
#15 Fireclave Dec 12, 2008 10:30:19	im considering letting him have it and just filling the campagn with monsters with fire immunity... Giving your players the OK to have broken awesomeness and then intentionally keep them from ever being able to use it is much worse then ever allowing it in the first place. Just looking over the Prc briefly, it is obvious your player is very biased to making this class a vision of what he would like his character to be rather than creating a viable, balanced class. Were I you, I have the player do (most of) the work to make it balance. Suggest to him to submit it on the boards for more experienced homebrewers to pick apart, then get back to you. Simply don't allow it until you are comfortable with the final result.
#16 liquid150 Dec 12, 2008 11:05:46	Here's how I'd balance that PrC.... The fire/good damage from the weapon is not dual effective, it's flat 2d6 damage, half good and half fire (as per flame strike). Change the save DC on the judgement effect. 10+HD+MOD is too high. Make it 10+Bladefire Valkyrie Level+charisma modifier Change the Meteor Attack ability drastically. The Valkyrie should only be able to create as many fireballs as her Bladefire Valkyrie level, not HD, and these fireballs should cap at the caster level equal to her bladefire valkyrie level (not HD or caster level). Additionally, the Valkyrie can only throw the number of fireballs in one round that she would have melee attacks derived from her BAB. Change Archangel's power to only offer Good maneuverability, not perfect. IIRC this character should have clumsy or poor manueverability naturally, average at best. Your player may not like these changes, but they balance the class well IMHO and generally keep his desired effects. The idea that he could cast 20 fireballs in one round for a special ability is way off base.
#17 Littha Dec 12, 2008 11:05:51	well i edited the class and toned it down a lot (read above), it should be more balanced now and still has the same essential flavor so i will probably allow it if he accepts my revisions Edit: wow i got ninjad on my revisions... you stated most of them I'm keeping the perfect maneuverability though as a half celestial has good to begin with more wings should improve it
#18 liquid150 Dec 12, 2008 11:08:48	well i edited the class and toned it down a lot (read above), it should be more balanced now and still has the same essential flavor so i will probably allow it if he accepts my revisions Edit: wow i got ninjad on my revisions... you stated most of them I'm keeping the perfect maneuverability though as a half celestial has good to begin with more wings should improve it i made a couple suggestions right above this post, but it looks like you made some of the exact changes i did. i'd adjust that meteor blast ability a bit more. edit-oh, it's just a fiery blast. he might not be too happy with that, but it's really up to you in the end. i proposed an alternate solution above.
#19 Littha Dec 12, 2008 11:21:06	well i think ill let that in as it stands now, the other worry is that losing the bonus feats half the burning fury damage the actual fireball effect of the meteor attack and the additional weapon specialisation from the weapon proficency box it may be a bit underpowered now... he can play it if he is actually devoted to the character image and not overpowered and broken abilities and i may let him have some of the abilities back
#20 Zherog Dec 12, 2008 11:40:04	Change the save DC on the judgement effect. 10+HD+MOD is too high. Make it 10+Bladefire Valkyrie Level+charisma modifier Just a quick note that this is the standard formula for a prestige class ability's saving throw. This is the most balanced way to handle it, overall. The idea that he could cast 20 fireballs in one round for a special ability is way off base. :OMG! Was that seriously one of the abilities? Maybe I should go read it. I could use a good laugh... Anyway, I wouldn't worry about it being underpowered. In my experience, it's much easier to adjust something to be more powerful than to make it less powerful. Players don't like losing stuff, but if you give them stuff they're generally happier.
#21 Littha Dec 12, 2008 12:24:50	just realised i didnt put a limit on the times/day on judgement... wouldnt want the PC spamming death effects on everything...
#22 liquid150 Dec 12, 2008 13:48:07	Just a quick note that this is the standard formula for a prestige class ability's saving throw. This is the most balanced way to handle it, overall. ah, well that works then, that wasn't the true broken part :OMG! Was that seriously one of the abilities? Maybe I should go read it. I could use a good laugh...he edited the PrC post with his revised version. the original had the ability to use the ability to throw an equal number of fireballs to the HD of the character, either all in one round or spread out among rounds. responses in red. overall i think the class has been put back into balance. OP might want to reinstate the higher DC value, but it's up to him.
#23 Zherog Dec 12, 2008 14:12:35	Just to clarify... when I say "that's the standard" I was referring to what you suggested -- 10 + prestige class level + ability modifier. The other alternative is to go with the standard formula for monster abilities, which is 10 + 1/2 Hit Dice + ability mod. I'd personally lean towards the former rather than the latter.
#24 liquid150 Dec 12, 2008 16:59:40	Just to clarify... when I say "that's the standard" I was referring to what you suggested -- 10 + prestige class level + ability modifier. The other alternative is to go with the standard formula for monster abilities, which is 10 + 1/2 Hit Dice + ability mod. I'd personally lean towards the former rather than the latter. oh, well i misread you then.