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Forced to take imbalanced power

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
wepfmokk
Oct 05, 2010 13:19:40 Hi!
I play a leader (bear shaman) for a very small party consisting of me, a warden and a druid.

Last session we hit lvl 10 and the other players want me to take the utility power Call forth the spirit world, wich is basically a "regeneration 5 for all bloodied allies" encounter power. (I think it was meant to be a daily).

Having DMed 4e myself i feel this power is much too strong when it comes to out of combat healing. Yet our recent dm allows it the way its in the character builder. I have voiced my concerns but the other players are pressuring me to take it because they want good healing. I just dont feel well taking it, but i also dont want to be blamed for everything that goes wrong in future encounters, because i made subpar decisions for my character. And this will happen.

help.
#2
FlashbackJon
Oct 05, 2010 14:20:13 I don't know, healing to (slightly above) bloodied value isn't all that fantastic out-of-combat (best case scenario it saves a dying character 4 healing surges), and its use in combat isn't that much better. It eats up your minor and only lasts as long as your companion does. I'm pretty sure it's intended to be a daily, but obviously that hasn't been corrected.

Bottom line is: take what you want to take. Tell them you're going to take what you want to take. Let them know that you don't want to hear one thing about your power selection and the first time one of them pipes up, nip it in the bud.

I mean, really, it's not the healer's fault if the other players are really bad at their jobs.
#3
t_stalker
Oct 05, 2010 15:09:40 What FlashbackJon said.

Or...

Do it, on the condition you get to pick their powers. >:D

#4
Kaganfindel
Oct 06, 2010 10:58:20
I don't think it's reasonable to expect everyone at the table to optimize. It's reasonable to expect the DM to scale the campaign to challenge the party, but player character building resources are strictly and entirely at the discretion of their players to spend, individually.

If they ever complain that you might've won an encounter if you'd taken that power, maybe it would be helpful to tell them that you're pretty sure that power is headed for errata, so they shouldn't get used to relying on it to save them. Remember pacifist healers before the surge free healing was nerfed? If a power or feat is a make-or-break thing for more than the odd corner case, it's too powerful.
#5
salla
Oct 06, 2010 11:21:01 I agree with FlashbackJon ... the power's good, but hardly the fall-down broken 'Push the button, we win' power your group seems to think it is.

Take what you want.
#6
CCS
Oct 06, 2010 22:23:31 Not seeing the conflict here.

If you don't think the power fits your character/personal style of play? Then don't take it.

If you for some reason cave in? Make the power your own. Use it as YOU see fit. IE; not at all, once per day, etc. Maybe only once someone actually drops.
And if your fellow players complain about how your using the power? Politely suggest that they're free to run the next healer as they see fit. Until then.....
#7
lysiander
Oct 07, 2010 4:42:04 Your party is not seeing the caveat of the power. While the healing is nice and the hit penalty helps, it effectively makes your spirit companion a target with a big "hit me" sign over its head. At 10th level, 15 damage in one attack is relatively common for artilery monsters and losing your spirit companion has much more opportunity costs than just losing the regeneration and hit penalty.

The power is fine as an encounter power and nowhere near overpowered. Comparing it to other powers of the level, it is nice and a solid pick, but its not the one pick available.

On a more general note, power picks are your choice. If you don't want the power, don't take it. The party has to work with the ressources it has not the ones it thinks it should have. If your party feels the need to rely on a squishy regeneration 5 while bloodied, there is something else going wrong entirely.

Are they even consistently bloodied on a regular basis for the power to trigger and have more value than a healing surge? Level 10 characters are usually between 54 and 85 hitpoints. In a best case scenario, that gives the player a 42 HP threshhold in which the power works, but it only has value if it heals at least one HP, so its 41. With the damage levels at level 10, relying on that power is a very dangerous game to play.
#8
tenrin
Oct 08, 2010 2:04:48 You're worried about out of combat healing? It only heals up to bloodied, right? You know what that means? You spend less healing surges. You know what spending less healing surges means? You get to keep adventuring.

What's wrong with that? So you go take a long rest after 6 encounters after 4, how is that bad? How is that broken? If it's seriously that big a problem for you, when the party decides to keep going just say "Yeah my character is going to go make camp" and pull out your gameboy for the next 2 fights or whatever.
#9
thundersteel1918
Oct 08, 2010 6:42:50 Well, if you don't want the power, don't take it. It is your character, play it the way you want to. If the rest of your party wants better healing, tell them to pick up some healing abilities.

However, it is not really that "unbalanced" a power. At best it may save 1 or 2 players a healing surge, maybe two, after an encounter. The regeneration stops when they are no longer bloodied. If two players are bloodied after an encounter, only they get the regeneration, and it will stop when they are 1 to 4 HP above bloodied, saving them at most, 2 surges, though likely only 1. Maybe it was intended to be a Daily, maybe not.
#10
dragonface
Oct 08, 2010 11:19:26 Don't know what the power is, don't care what the power is, doesn't matter what the power is. You don't want to take that power for your character, you don't take that power. It's your character, play it how you want to play it.

Hmm, looks like most everybody else has already said what I'm saying. Carry on...
#11
salla
Oct 08, 2010 11:29:53 As a side note ... you could always take the power and refuse to use it, but that's kind of a jerk move. But I can be spiteful sometimes.
#12
mock26
Oct 08, 2010 17:34:51 Thank the other players for their imput but tell them that you prefer to take a different power. It really is that simple.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 wepfmokk Oct 05, 2010 13:19:40	Hi! I play a leader (bear shaman) for a very small party consisting of me, a warden and a druid. Last session we hit lvl 10 and the other players want me to take the utility power Call forth the spirit world, wich is basically a "regeneration 5 for all bloodied allies" encounter power. (I think it was meant to be a daily). Having DMed 4e myself i feel this power is much too strong when it comes to out of combat healing. Yet our recent dm allows it the way its in the character builder. I have voiced my concerns but the other players are pressuring me to take it because they want good healing. I just dont feel well taking it, but i also dont want to be blamed for everything that goes wrong in future encounters, because i made subpar decisions for my character. And this will happen. help.
#2 FlashbackJon Oct 05, 2010 14:20:13	I don't know, healing to (slightly above) bloodied value isn't all that fantastic out-of-combat (best case scenario it saves a dying character 4 healing surges), and its use in combat isn't that much better. It eats up your minor and only lasts as long as your companion does. I'm pretty sure it's intended to be a daily, but obviously that hasn't been corrected. Bottom line is: take what you want to take. Tell them you're going to take what you want to take. Let them know that you don't want to hear one thing about your power selection and the first time one of them pipes up, nip it in the bud. I mean, really, it's not the healer's fault if the other players are really bad at their jobs.
#3 t_stalker Oct 05, 2010 15:09:40	What FlashbackJon said. Or... Do it, on the condition you get to pick their powers. >:D
#4 Kaganfindel Oct 06, 2010 10:58:20	I don't think it's reasonable to expect everyone at the table to optimize. It's reasonable to expect the DM to scale the campaign to challenge the party, but player character building resources are strictly and entirely at the discretion of their players to spend, individually. If they ever complain that you might've won an encounter if you'd taken that power, maybe it would be helpful to tell them that you're pretty sure that power is headed for errata, so they shouldn't get used to relying on it to save them. Remember pacifist healers before the surge free healing was nerfed? If a power or feat is a make-or-break thing for more than the odd corner case, it's too powerful.
#5 salla Oct 06, 2010 11:21:01	I agree with FlashbackJon ... the power's good, but hardly the fall-down broken 'Push the button, we win' power your group seems to think it is. Take what you want.
#6 CCS Oct 06, 2010 22:23:31	Not seeing the conflict here. If you don't think the power fits your character/personal style of play? Then don't take it. If you for some reason cave in? Make the power your own. Use it as YOU see fit. IE; not at all, once per day, etc. Maybe only once someone actually drops. And if your fellow players complain about how your using the power? Politely suggest that they're free to run the next healer as they see fit. Until then.....
#7 lysiander Oct 07, 2010 4:42:04	Your party is not seeing the caveat of the power. While the healing is nice and the hit penalty helps, it effectively makes your spirit companion a target with a big "hit me" sign over its head. At 10th level, 15 damage in one attack is relatively common for artilery monsters and losing your spirit companion has much more opportunity costs than just losing the regeneration and hit penalty. The power is fine as an encounter power and nowhere near overpowered. Comparing it to other powers of the level, it is nice and a solid pick, but its not the one pick available. On a more general note, power picks are your choice. If you don't want the power, don't take it. The party has to work with the ressources it has not the ones it thinks it should have. If your party feels the need to rely on a squishy regeneration 5 while bloodied, there is something else going wrong entirely. Are they even consistently bloodied on a regular basis for the power to trigger and have more value than a healing surge? Level 10 characters are usually between 54 and 85 hitpoints. In a best case scenario, that gives the player a 42 HP threshhold in which the power works, but it only has value if it heals at least one HP, so its 41. With the damage levels at level 10, relying on that power is a very dangerous game to play.
#8 tenrin Oct 08, 2010 2:04:48	You're worried about out of combat healing? It only heals up to bloodied, right? You know what that means? You spend less healing surges. You know what spending less healing surges means? You get to keep adventuring. What's wrong with that? So you go take a long rest after 6 encounters after 4, how is that bad? How is that broken? If it's seriously that big a problem for you, when the party decides to keep going just say "Yeah my character is going to go make camp" and pull out your gameboy for the next 2 fights or whatever.
#9 thundersteel1918 Oct 08, 2010 6:42:50	Well, if you don't want the power, don't take it. It is your character, play it the way you want to. If the rest of your party wants better healing, tell them to pick up some healing abilities. However, it is not really that "unbalanced" a power. At best it may save 1 or 2 players a healing surge, maybe two, after an encounter. The regeneration stops when they are no longer bloodied. If two players are bloodied after an encounter, only they get the regeneration, and it will stop when they are 1 to 4 HP above bloodied, saving them at most, 2 surges, though likely only 1. Maybe it was intended to be a Daily, maybe not.
#10 dragonface Oct 08, 2010 11:19:26	Don't know what the power is, don't care what the power is, doesn't matter what the power is. You don't want to take that power for your character, you don't take that power. It's your character, play it how you want to play it. Hmm, looks like most everybody else has already said what I'm saying. Carry on...
#11 salla Oct 08, 2010 11:29:53	As a side note ... you could always take the power and refuse to use it, but that's kind of a jerk move. But I can be spiteful sometimes.
#12 mock26 Oct 08, 2010 17:34:51	Thank the other players for their imput but tell them that you prefer to take a different power. It really is that simple.