But getting down to the point, he has finaly become too raged to play. I know he likes d&d, i mean, he did spend a lot of time reading the book. But he does not understand that d&d is a far too vast and complicated game to understand all at once (for example, i have played it a lot and still use the book to look up things).
For the first situation that began to build his frustration:
We were entering a area that had just been destroyed, and we were going to check out the guard tower that was protecting the area. The door had been knocked down and we heard heavy breathing. It was an innocent man who had part of his side ripped off, exposing his punctured lung. We were going to help him and heal him. The player that I am talking about thought that, because the man had the same name as the person who was stealing his scrolls, he was the actual man. He pushed up the man against the wall and tried to stick his staff against him, but failed in doing so. He then said, "I am going to cast scorching ray on him", in game. The rest of the party and I agreed that if he were to do this we would probably kill him, as it was too evil of an act. We told him over and over and it became an argument. He still wanted to do it, so we all grappled him and cut his already broken leg off to screw up his concentration (The dwarf in our party decided to do this on the fly). The frustrated player began to get angry and demanded that the DM give him his leg back. We argued about the situation and explained to him that we couldn't let him carry out this act so something had to be done. He continued to demand his leg back. The DM said he would come up with something, but the frustrated player had already left the room. We took a break and the player came back willing to give the campaign a second try (we continued on). The DM gave him a new special leg and the rest of the party some special body parts to even it up. (For instance, I am a sorcerer and was given special hands). The being that was giving us these parts told us that we would figure out how to use them on our own.
The second and last situation that ended our session:
We met another mage who showed off his power to make sure we understood just how powerful he was. He was controling some sort of natural tower-like device. The device shooted something at one of the players that got near it. The DM described the device that shot at us. The frustrated player i've been talking about used the arcane knowledge skill on it. He said that all your able to recognize about it is that it was a tower-like thing that contained some magical energy (frustrated player had gotten a very high role). The frustrated player began an argument stating over and over that it had to be a magical turret construct. The DM stated that he could assume that, but your ingame character was not able to recognize it. This blew up into a big argument, which started to form into him against the group, as the rest of us agreed that the DM new best in this situation and that just because you get a high role does not mean its high enough. The argument escalated as we tried to calm him down and explain to him that the DM new best in this situation. Before the argument really got going, the tower like device had turned into a big tall thick vine (this isn't very important but hints that it could be different than a simple turret). The player became so angry that he ripped his character sheet in half and left enraged.
Some background:
This player was relatively new, and showed signs that many of his attempts were to gain XP. So it makes sense at why he got so frustrated. But what doesn't make sense is why these simple situations became so game wrecking for him. One thing that may be important to fixing the situation is that the player also has become very self centered to the point that he needed a buff that makes it so he gets no XP penalty to making scrolls and he can make them from the spells he didn't use for 2 hours a rest. This has caused him to get insane amounts of spells. So many that the sorcerer becomes a pointless class when you can get the quality of a wizard and quantity of a sorcerer only being the wizard class. Its one thing the group has considered fixing, but he has threatened that he will not play if we try to fix the imbalance. As you can see, we haven't discussed how to fix the imbalance yet, as this happened before we were able to do that.
Is there anything you guys know that could help the group and I? We dont want to lose a player, as he is our friend. But its becoming really insane that this stuff is getting so emotional. Is there anything we can do? This is so important, as it is more than just a game problem but a friend problem as well.
If he's going to be an immature ass, let him go.
Oh, and never allow evil PCs. That's just a recipe for disaster anyway.
Tell him not to let the door hit him in the rear on the way out.
~so we all grappled him and cut his already broken leg off to screw up his concentration~
Ok, well, that's a bit extreme....
I can see how that'd lead to some frustration.
The rest though? Your friend sounds like he's not mature enough yet to handle this type of game. Maybe it's for the best that he tore up his character sheet & quit. Maybe later.
~so we all grappled him and cut his already broken leg off to screw up his concentration~
Ok, well, that's a bit extreme....
I can see how that'd lead to some frustration.
The rest though? Your friend sounds like he's not mature enough yet to handle this type of game. Maybe it's for the best that he tore up his character sheet & quit. Maybe later.
I have to agree with the extremeness of that action. But it really wasn't an option as we were trying to disable him some how from casting that spell.
Guys, I know he is mature enough to play. There has to be a way to help him understand. He has already played this game with no problems once. Tomorrow I will see if the situation improves. He acts like the total opposite of his old character. Is it possible the arrogance in the game is some how getting to him in real life? He is not a very social guy, kind of like me, but I have gotten over arguing with DM's, as it never gets anywhere. Do you guys have an idea how to balance out the scroll thing, possibly alternative rules? I have a feeling that his frustration is ultimately coming from the group pressure to balance out his character. I could understand having that much power and having the threat of it being taken away. But he has to understand that he is OP. It totally nullifies the point of there being a sorcerer class.
I would recommend keep trying to talk to him. If he still won't cooperate kindly show him the exit. There's no excuse for ruining other's times.
If you really want to give him another chance, sit him down and let him know his behavior is unacceptable to the DM and the other players. Then scrap all your characters and start over. Maybe next time he'll make a character that he doesn't view as unstoppable.
I hope for your sake I'm wrong, but I suspect you'll have to remove him from your game before long. If he's killing the fun for everyone else, he's got to go.
ON THE OTHER HAND, it also sounds like your DM is deliberately **** on his parade, and the rest of you aren't taking his troubles too seriously- at least not until it turns into a ragefest. He does appear to have some valid concerns- and I don't give a damn about supposed powergaming- he has a right to have those concerns dealt with.
"I am going to cast scorching ray on him" INGAME? Really? It sounds much more as though- speaking from personal experience- he said it OOC, and everyone decided he said it IC as an excuse to metagame.
Cutting off his leg? Way too far. Sure, he's playing chaotic evil- and he probably picked that alignment so he could do whatever he wanted without the aligment fairies coming to get him. But at the same time, there does seem to be more to it then a powergamer having his toys taken away.
-High Arcana checks do not warrant complete and accurate answers about every single magical artefact or phenomena- HOWEVER, "It's a tower that's emitting magical energy" *rolls* "You know it's a tower that's emitting magical energy" just reeks of sheer laziness on your DM's part. In my experience, even for players like this- sometimes all they're looking for is a bit of support. They roll an awesome knowledge roll? Give them some history. "This appears to be blah blah blah blah, the [arcanobabble goes here]. You recall that [hint goes here] and obviously this wizard must be fairly powerful to utilize such a contraption."
That doesn't give him any way to really powergame, but it does reward him for his efforts- and I think that he definitely needs something along those lines.
ENTIRE PARTY + DM vs Him? Should. Never. Happen.
So don't let it.
I have to agree with the extremeness of that action. But it really wasn't an option as we were trying to disable him some how from casting that spell.
Guys, I know he is mature enough to play. There has to be a way to help him understand. He has already played this game with no problems once. Tomorrow I will see if the situation improves. He acts like the total opposite of his old character. Is it possible the arrogance in the game is some how getting to him in real life? He is not a very social guy, kind of like me, but I have gotten over arguing with DM's, as it never gets anywhere. Do you guys have an idea how to balance out the scroll thing, possibly alternative rules? I have a feeling that his frustration is ultimately coming from the group pressure to balance out his character. I could understand having that much power and having the threat of it being taken away. But he has to understand that he is OP. It totally nullifies the point of there being a sorcerer class.
I'm afraid I have to agree with the majority opinion here. There's a distinct maturity level one needs to play this game, and he seems to be short.
As far as he has to understand, he really doesn't. He technically doesn't *have* to do anything but die and pay taxes, and dependent on his lifestyle, he may not even have to do the second. You can tell him his 'toon is overpowered, and he need not understand where you're coming from, nor even really be bothered to hear you or the DM.
The XP costs for scrolls is accompanied by a gold cost, both of which must be paid for you to make a scroll. If I were your DM, I'd start docking his XP for the amount of the scrolls, and have his creditors after him in a big way.
I've run into this issue a time or three myself(the Wizard in question coached by The Cheater), and I finally had to stomp on it. Houserules like you have to use all your memorized spells before you could use a scroll at all put a quick stop to a lot of it, and there's always the cutpurse that steals his pack/scrollcase/whatever. I encourage your DM to do any or all of these things in order to get the current imbalance under control, and keep it that way. The XP Buff is esentially giving him free levels: Make it go away.
On the Arcana check giving him all the detailed information on a magic item, in theory, he is correct. You have to go back to the 3.0 Epic-Level Handbook to find a reference.
On an Arcana check of 50, a Mage may Detect Magic per the spell, and I think the DC is 100+ for identification of an item. OTOH, there is a first-level spell that does the same thing with no Arcana check: Identify. Costs 100gp per item in a pearl that may in fact be hard to find, but it obviates the need for an Arcana check. It even gives all the properties of an item short of an Artifact.
If he's going to be like that, though, it might behoove you to let him go on his merry way. Just let him know that the way out the door is one-way only. I played First edition for years, and every edition since the same. I'm relatively new to 4e, though. I'm occasionally wrong, and sometimes in very glaring ways.
That said, when found wrong, I'm adult enough to admit it, and work with the others around me to find the source of the issue, make sure everyone's clear, and then fix the issue in a permanent, and mutually agreeable way.
Your friend seems like he could learn a lesson in the way life works, and he'll have to calm down and stop being juvenile before you can even approach the problem. While the rage is an issue, you'll get nowhere.
Good luck to you. I hope you get it worked out, or at least don't lose a friend, even if you do lose a player.
-Sarena
PS: Oh, and for the record, crippling him was way over the top. All you had to do was thump him one, and force a concentration check. If he failed, he failed, with all the attendant consequences. An action comment should be taken as OOC, unless he says otherwise.
-Sarena
If the arcane knowledge thing was wrong, I will have to speak to the DM about it. I hope this will work out by wednesday which is our next session (mon, wed is our sessions).
I really have to say that the DM was not intentionaly trying to screw over the frustrated player. Infact, he's been helping him a lot. I would have to say by general observation that a wizard is probably not the best class for him, but he likes it by name only. He seems to like the brute force classes such as barbarians. Sorcerer probably wouldn't be too bad either, because then things are more "set in stone", and the sorcerer class is more based on quantity damage and buff spamming.
I play d&d in a friends group, it also includes my brothers (you can imagine some of the funny arguments that take place). One of the people in the group (he is relatively new, second time playing, but he only got to level 5 last time) is starting to rage quit. He has the belief that, because he has spent a lot of time reading the 3.5 book, he knows more than everybody else. For example, he thinks using arcane knowledge is always a guaranteed description of a magical object if he gets a high role. He is a wizard, so he uses this a lot. He also has a tough alignment to play as a wizard (chaotic evil), which causes him to do things against the recommended style of his class.
CE is not generally a group friendly alignment. What is the general alignment of the group (good, neutral, evil)? I've found that the game if more fun when everyone is working together, opposing alignments/goals can make this difficult. There's a reason that many DMs outright ban evil alignments.
On Knowledge: Arcana: Nowhere does the rules say you always know something. This should be a fairly cut and dry issue, read the skill description with him and ask him to point out where it says he will always know something. If he's reading something incorrectly, this will be a good time to correct the issue.
For the first situation that began to build his frustration:
We were entering a area that had just been destroyed, and we were going to check out the guard tower that was protecting the area. The door had been knocked down and we heard heavy breathing. It was an innocent man who had part of his side ripped off, exposing his punctured lung. We were going to help him and heal him. The player that I am talking about thought that, because the man had the same name as the person who was stealing his scrolls, he was the actual man. He pushed up the man against the wall and tried to stick his staff against him, but failed in doing so. He then said, "I am going to cast scorching ray on him", in game. The rest of the party and I agreed that if he were to do this we would probably kill him, as it was too evil of an act. We told him over and over and it became an argument. He still wanted to do it, so we all grappled him and cut his already broken leg off to screw up his concentration (The dwarf in our party decided to do this on the fly). The frustrated player began to get angry and demanded that the DM give him his leg back. We argued about the situation and explained to him that we couldn't let him carry out this act so something had to be done. He continued to demand his leg back. The DM said he would come up with something, but the frustrated player had already left the room. We took a break and the player came back willing to give the campaign a second try (we continued on). The DM gave him a new special leg and the rest of the party some special body parts to even it up. (For instance, I am a sorcerer and was given special hands). The being that was giving us these parts told us that we would figure out how to use them on our own.
How experienced is your DM? Had this come up in a game I was running, I would have stopped the game as soon as PvP started. It sounds like all of you (players and DM) need to sit down and discuss what exactly you all want from the game. If you are all OK with PvP, so be it, but if there is little or no interest, then that should be respected. Again, having vastly differing alignments/goals isn't productive to promoting party cohesion.
The second and last situation that ended our session:
We met another mage who showed off his power to make sure we understood just how powerful he was. He was controling some sort of natural tower-like device. The device shooted something at one of the players that got near it. The DM described the device that shot at us. The frustrated player i've been talking about used the arcane knowledge skill on it. He said that all your able to recognize about it is that it was a tower-like thing that contained some magical energy (frustrated player had gotten a very high role). The frustrated player began an argument stating over and over that it had to be a magical turret construct. The DM stated that he could assume that, but your ingame character was not able to recognize it. This blew up into a big argument, which started to form into him against the group, as the rest of us agreed that the DM new best in this situation and that just because you get a high role does not mean its high enough. The argument escalated as we tried to calm him down and explain to him that the DM new best in this situation. Before the argument really got going, the tower like device had turned into a big tall thick vine (this isn't very important but hints that it could be different than a simple turret). The player became so angry that he ripped his character sheet in half and left enraged.
As a DM, I'm open to discussion about rulings I make, but those discussions will wait till a break in the session or after the session ends. If I make a mistake and a player corrects me on the spot, that's fine, as that usually only takes a couple seconds. Anything beyond that we can talk about later and, if an error of mine caused a large problem, I will retcon the situation as required and apologize for the error. This rule is something I let all players know at the start of the game and most players will respect the rule. In the rare event that a player wants to argue mid session, I will politely request they wait for a break, if they insist on continuing to argue, I will tell them in no uncertain terms that the discussion can wait or they can leave.
Some background:
This player was relatively new, and showed signs that many of his attempts were to gain XP. So it makes sense at why he got so frustrated. But what doesn't make sense is why these simple situations became so game wrecking for him. One thing that may be important to fixing the situation is that the player also has become very self centered to the point that he needed a buff that makes it so he gets no XP penalty to making scrolls and he can make them from the spells he didn't use for 2 hours a rest. This has caused him to get insane amounts of spells. So many that the sorcerer becomes a pointless class when you can get the quality of a wizard and quantity of a sorcerer only being the wizard class. Its one thing the group has considered fixing, but he has threatened that he will not play if we try to fix the imbalance. As you can see, we haven't discussed how to fix the imbalance yet, as this happened before we were able to do that.
Metagaming actions to gain XP will result in 0 xp in my games.
On the scroll (and other magic item creation) issue. I agree that charging the wizard, or other caster, XP for making items the entire party will benefit from is dumb. The house rule that we used was that XP cost for items that are for the entire group (most spell scrolls fell into this catagory) would be split between all members of the party. Items for an individual would come from that person's XP; for example: if the fighter wants a +2 strength item, the wizard would craft the item but the fighter would pay the gold and xp cost and would have to spend the same amount of time crafting (helping the crafter).
This house rule was made with the assumption that the players will not abuse the system and simply stockpile dozens or hundreds of scrolls/other items.
Keep in mind also that regardless of XP costs, there is a limit on how much can be crafted. Also, crafting scrolls in the field is nearly impossible given the constraints on crafting items.
Is there anything you guys know that could help the group and I? We dont want to lose a player, as he is our friend. But its becoming really insane that this stuff is getting so emotional. Is there anything we can do? This is so important, as it is more than just a game problem but a friend problem as well.
You all need to sit down and talk. Don't turn it into an "us vs. them" situation with the group ganging up on your friend. Let everyone have a say in the matter. Address your issues in a calm manner and give his point of view a fair shake.
Your game might benefit from some ground rules. Some that I use are:
1. No evil alignments. I've been down that road plenty and I'm not interested in running an evil campaign.
2. The players are responsible for telling me why their characters are working together. I'm not coming up with some convoluted explanation of how the PCs all met and grouped up, that's up to the players.
3. The PCs will work together. I'm not interested in PvP. PCs don't have to always agree and there will be plenty of room for conflict, but if the group comes to the point that they want to open up combat on each other, then I've failed somewhere along the line and we need to stop and discuss what went wrong and get things back on track.
second - Honestly, he does have a right to complain about having a character crippled for what in the character's eyes was not so crazy if everyone had known it.
three - as far as knowledge arcana goes, There is nothing regional exactly stated about the DCs for the checks. If it's a completely unique effect, he should at least have SOME idea of what's going on, spellcraft + knowledge arcana + detect magic gives that much information as long as it's MAGIC, generally. but just being something he might not encounter on his plane is no reason to not hit it with a regular DC if all it does is emulate a spell. (and if an object is emulating a spell with a kind of trigger, period , it should be DC 15+ spell level as usual)
On the actual issue - Honestly he should know better than to play a CE character within a good party. not that it can't work, it's just that magical party glue should not have to hold characters together. (I just want to edit and add characters ACTIONS dictate their alignment, not what it says on their character sheet. alignment only means what spells that hit you might do or if you light up to a detect alignment spell. it's not a straightjacket of expectations, and no DM should EVER EVER EVER USE ALIGNMENT as a way to gauge the player's decisions for character actions to avoid highly exploitable situations.)
On the same vein, the party has the right to restrain and/or kill any evil wizards they come across, especially when they show a distinct lack of respect for the sanctity of human life. They're adventurers, after all, their chosen career path is the 'Slaughter of Evil Tyrants'.
However, your DM shouldn't have allowed good and evil characters within the same party. I run into enough problems with good and neutral characters as it is.
Secondly, the 'tower is some manner of construct with magical energy'. Could've been a Tesla Coil, could've been a radio tower. The wizard gets a high result on a knowledge roll and demands that it's 'magical turret construct'.
The DM, fairly, says that he can assume that, but he doesn't know for certain. It doesn't indicate outright failure, it's a plot hook to get the PCs to explore the tower. Or at the very least, the DM doesn't appreciate being told what his game is all about by a player.
In the end, your friend sounds like a petulant child who's not getting to do what he wants. He should have been prepared to deal with the consequences if playing an evil alignment in a good party and he shouldn't have broken down the game with a pointless argument over a knowledge check.
I think a reminder should be given that you are in control of your character. You can decide to react differently to the things that happen in game. Your characters personality is not set in stone.
I'd suggest reading this article and showing it to your gaming buddies. Specifically the section titled "Decide to React differently"
www.giantitp.com/articles/tll307KmEm4H9k...
At the end of the day, if your friend wants to cast an offensive spell on a wounded fellow, let him try. It fits his alignment. He should also be ready to eat the consequences, though. This is all part of choosing to play CE.
Rule 0 dictates that if the DM doesn't think a roll is high enough, it ain't. Suck it up. This is all part of playing D'n'D.
If your friend can't swallow either of these realities, and hasn't the maturity to take it in his stride, he's playing the wrong game. C'est la vie. Be happy that he quit before you had to force him to leave.
It sounds harsh, but it's the way it is.
we all grappled him and cut his already broken leg off
You seem to be in the wrong forum. The Saw RPG boards are over there. --->
that's not what rule 0 is or was. Rule 0 exists for whatever the rules doesn't cover and if something has to be changed. It's not there for arbitrary or ridiculous purposes though.
Actually no. Rule 0 is there to guarantee the DM absolute power at the table, above and beyond what the rules dictate. As a result, a good DM is crucial to a good game, because the DM really CAN change things however he pleases.
It's worth noting that changing the rules arbitrarily is pretty much always the fastest way to ruin the game for the players, though, to be sure.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely... ;)
that's not what rule 0 is or was. Rule 0 exists for whatever the rules doesn't cover and if something has to be changed. It's not there for arbitrary or ridiculous purposes though.
Actually no. Rule 0 is there to guarantee the DM absolute power at the table, above and beyond what the rules dictate. As a result, a good DM is crucial to a good game, because the DM really CAN change things however he pleases.
It's worth noting that changing the rules arbitrarily is pretty much always the fastest way to ruin the game for the players, though, to be sure.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely... ;)
, what I said and what you said were the same thing. however, I put it in the way of how actually things are, as opposed to "the way people say it when they want to lose a gaming group in record time" :-p which is what you said right after.
tiny difference in the way it comes off, but one has the wrong attitude in the way it is expressed.
About blasting the dude. The wizard is CE. If anything the wizard is being nice for his alignment right there. To me the way it was presented or stated by the player seemed to be a warning to the group and to the npc. Why not just do it and do it in game ASAP? He did take your stuff right? Or at least ya think he did and that's good enough reason to start killing.
Now the rest of the group cutting off the leg. A bit extreme but they're good and they're now fighting a chaotic evil raving lunatic (and possibly a murderer and if not not then will be in a few seconds). This is kind of what good players do. So sure cutting the legs seem a bit extreme in this situation but then again they don't want to kill their party mate (friend?), they just want to restrain him. And well badly. So their actions kinda makes sense. ya know, saving a man's life from someone that just snapped.
In my experience players that are power gamers or new usually want (like) to make evil characters. Not only does he seem new but he seems to be spending lots of time reading and memorizing the rules. Knowing them in and out. Something that I've seen done by myself, whom is know to power game from time to time, and by some of my friends that like to power game. When we wish to power game we'll be quick to use things like knowledge checks and rules loopholes. To me this kinda seems to be what this player is doing.
His scrolls shouldn't really be making him much more, if at all, more powerful than the sorcerer unless he has access to more wealth than what he should have and is given lots of down time to craft them. Some of the suggestions others made to help fix or balance this problem are nice. Sure the imbalance is partly caused by the player's craving for an OP character but it also seems caused by the DM allowing such in his game.
I have seen players b****, whine, complain and storm out of a room angry but I haven't quite seen a reaction like this. And yeah most of these reactions where from people that had made evil characters and that had made an OP character (or at least attempted it), of which resulted in their character death by either the hands of the DM (ya know town guards and such) or by the other PCs in the group (like I mentioned before I often make OP characters, though don't often use them to their full potential, and I don't tolerate stupid evil characters (but wont kill them for no reason in the game if the dm lets them in)). An evil character in a group will almost always lead to PvP within the group unless they are played well by a very experienced player (of which I've almost never seen happen). If PvP happens in a group then likely someone will get their feelings hurt. Especially in situations of group break downs caused by evil characters.
Oh, and never allow evil PCs. That's just a recipe for disaster anyway.
Incorrect, evil characters can work out just fine if done right.
Oh, and never allow evil PCs. That's just a recipe for disaster anyway.
Incorrect, evil characters can work out just fine if done right.
True, my all-time favorite character to play is an evil character. But in general I still agree that it is best to avoid evil characters until you know you've got very experienced players at the helm.
My evil character doesn't KNOW he's evil. That helps.
If people are still asshats they need to go.
Oh, and never allow evil PCs. That's just a recipe for disaster anyway.
Incorrect, evil characters can work out just fine if done right.
they can, but its a exception to the rule rather then the norm
Oh, and never allow evil PCs. That's just a recipe for disaster anyway.
Incorrect, evil characters can work out just fine if done right.
Sadly, that's a pretty big "if," dependant on the maturity of the player in question. Nine times out of ten, they AREN'T done right, because the motivation isn't "I want to explore what it's like to be an evil character," it's "I want to do whatever the f*** I want in-game." This is especially true for Chaotic Evil, and is usually a huge warning sign that the player is planning on being a disruptive @$$hat.
Oh, and never allow evil PCs. That's just a recipe for disaster anyway.
Incorrect, evil characters can work out just fine if done right.
Sadly, that's a pretty big "if," dependant on the maturity of the player in question. Nine times out of ten, they AREN'T done right, because the motivation isn't "I want to explore what it's like to be an evil character," it's "I want to do whatever the f*** I want in-game." This is especially true for Chaotic Evil, and is usually a huge warning sign that the player is planning on being a disruptive @$$hat.
I second that. I've played evil characters and I've played with evil characters quite a few times. It is difficult to get it right, especially if you are new to the game or immature.
For example, my first character, a lawful evil fighter in a game of dragonlance in 2nd ed was a complete joke. I was just looking for an excuse to not have many moral restrictions at all. Yeah it got worse there was a chaotic evil wizard too just looking for an excuse to not have any moral restrictions at all and be a total arse on the others. And he was an fairly experienced player. So here comes the second part, you also have to be mature which he wasn't. Every character he made until we stopped playing with him was almost like this.
Thankfully I have come to a point that I think I can play properly an evil character but still I would never, ever choose a chaotic evil alignment. This is just asking for trouble.
Now to the problem at hand. Yeah, chopping off his leg is possibly over the top. Being a good party you could have just forcibly restrained him. As for the arcana check, the DM could have added some extra details mentioning that it could be something like a turret as the player thought but adding that although familiar parts existed on it, the whole contraption was beyond anything the player had ever seen or too advanced or both.
In conclusion, he seems eager to experience the game but he doesn't have a complete understanding of what the game is about. Get the DM (and just the DM, not the rest of the party because it's easier for a player to accept something when the DM says it in a confidential way) to have a talk with him, maybe ask him to change his alignment to something more cooperative and less sociopathic, even if it is still evil. Mainly he has to understand that being evil doesn't mean you have to show this to every person you meet or paint it on every wall for people to see to play your character right.
But in persisting and reading his actions and behaviours, I wonder if he really belongs in the hobby.
I am compelled to ask, how old is this person? I feel bad implying he has to be a young teen as if young teens are all easily able to be discribed as hot headed ill advised and immature. But his behaviour sucks.
I have a friend that is 40 years old, and I simply won't let him in my group simply because he's selfish self centered and immature. He's a good friend, I like having him in my company, we get along just fine. He's generous in the real world. But as a rolegamer he sucks.
My advice, let the person walk.
Oh, and never allow evil PCs. That's just a recipe for disaster anyway.
Incorrect, evil characters can work out just fine if done right.
Sadly, that's a pretty big "if," dependant on the maturity of the player in question. Nine times out of ten, they AREN'T done right, because the motivation isn't "I want to explore what it's like to be an evil character," it's "I want to do whatever the f*** I want in-game." This is especially true for Chaotic Evil, and is usually a huge warning sign that the player is planning on being a disruptive @$$hat.
Dead on. 99% of people who claim they can play evil characters want to play an evil character specifically for that reason. They fall into the same mythical group of people who have overpowered / broken / munchkin / characters but can roleplay them perfectly.
Often spoken of, but I never seem to find any.
Dead on. 99% of people who claim they can play evil characters want to play an evil character specifically for that reason. They fall into the same mythical group of people who have overpowered / broken / munchkin / characters but can roleplay them perfectly.
Often spoken of, but I never seem to find any.
Or they're a big fan of Ashram, Xellos, Mephasm, or Ammon Jerro.
Not all players of evil characters aspire to Belkar and Black Mage. Though even those can work if played for the appropriate style comedy.
My current evil character is a Xellos/Mephasm cross. As far as I'm concerned, no party is complete without a Token Evil Teammate.
Oh, and never allow evil PCs. That's just a recipe for disaster anyway.
Incorrect, evil characters can work out just fine if done right.
Sadly, that's a pretty big "if," dependant on the maturity of the player in question. Nine times out of ten, they AREN'T done right, because the motivation isn't "I want to explore what it's like to be an evil character," it's "I want to do whatever the f*** I want in-game." This is especially true for Chaotic Evil, and is usually a huge warning sign that the player is planning on being a disruptive @$$hat.
Dead on. 99% of people who claim they can play evil characters want to play an evil character specifically for that reason. They fall into the same mythical group of people who have overpowered / broken / munchkin / characters but can roleplay them perfectly.
Often spoken of, but I never seem to find any.
Your more likely to find powerplayers who can roleplay. Really is not as rare as you think.
Evil players turn into a monster of a problem eventually. Some groups may start off good, but most of the time all hell breaks loose and people end up fighting or not having fun. Well that is a mixed group of good players and evil. All evil parties are a bit easier
I played the character for three sessions, and every session my character was ridiculed by any NPC he came across and out-right shunned pretty much. As well as not being able to use any weapon longer then he was without using two-hands. (Including long-swords. ) So I just said it wasn't my game.
But ripping a char sheet in half? That's going a bit far, I'd have to agree with the other people here. Tell him to grow up or just let him walk.
As far as chopping his leg off? That's really not to bad. my Brother in law and a couple other friends (2) are running a game, BIL is the DM, we have a Chaotic Evil half-dragon with us and while we butt-heads alot in-game. It generally ends well. (Though not always so for the NPCs after the rest of us go to rest in camp.)
Killing the wounded dude, IMO was a proper and good reaction for the CE wizard. It's what evil people do, judge first ask later. Cutting his leg off worked to, he shouldn't have been pissed, I mean...it's one of those things you kind of have to accept what your teammates do when you go killing people.
As someone else said, have the DM talk to him alone and work things out, if the player won't accept the DM's rulings then well he should find another group that's better suited to him. Some people just don't play well together.
By the way, the powergamers in our group are all fine roleplayers.
A "powergamer" from what I can see is what I call a min/maxer right? Someone who only plays to get the absolute most out of every situation and their character? Sorry for this question, as I realize it's a pretty newb one but still.
I'm new to some of the lingo around here. (As we use different lingo at home.)
A "powergamer" from what I can see is what I call a min/maxer right? Someone who only plays to get the absolute most out of every situation and their character? Sorry for this question, as I realize it's a pretty newb one but still.
They don't "only play" to max.
It's more they use better feats/magic items and things that combine togther to make a PC deal more damage.
If someone sees your are making a power PC, they see it as a power gamer and you can't roleplay.
Some DMS hate to see any hint of a OPT PC. They rather see you make a medocore PC for whatever reason they choose
On the hand there are power gamers who just enjoy making there PC the best. Thesse people are competieve, but that is how they enjoy the game.
Ah the joy of being DM trying to keep everyone happy with how they enjoy the game
Then there are people who end up ruining everyones fun because they only enjoy power gaming and hate to lose.
But this all can be said for people who over roleplay
Sometimes the game system merely needs to sum up the alignment process better. Frankly the only game I know of that at least was able to label a 'jerk' appropriately was Paladium.
A player wishing to be a 'jerk' of a PC should be allowed to fully come to grips with what a 'jerk' PC can expect from the people they interact with. After all, why should a 'jerk' of a PC be treated any diferently that you would treat a 'jerk' in real life?
I DO have friends that DO occasionally act like jerks
Doesn't get them any further then it gets me when I am guilty of the same. Sometimes resolving issues in game, should be identical to how it would be resolved in real life.All things considered, as a player in that game, I'm fairly certain I wouldn't have chopped off his leg, I'd have simply killed his PC outright. But as the player was of a mind to rip up the PC himself, well frankly I'd take the DM aside and tell him if the person came back to the game, I was leaving the game.
Some stuff is simply unacceptable.
You can have a charming evil character, who hides his evil side from the group, for example(and might even turn out to be the BBEG later on!)
Of course sometimes they don't have to hide it, and still be accepted(eg: lawful evil style fighter who is simply ruthless, with no qualms whatsoever, the party might not always like his methods, but he gets the job done).
They should never be "I do evil stuff, cause I'm evil" caricatures.
Drama queen. Needs the boot. No questions asked.
T