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| #1ysaraApr 04, 2008 2:36:06 | Hi. And help! I'm about to start my first campaign in years, and am working up a generalist wizard. Yes, I know it's not optimized for godhood, but it works well with the background I worked up. ;) I have access to the core books, the complete books, and the magic item compendium. Anything else requires DM approval, which is apparently usually granted as long as it's not obvious cheese. I was thinking of doing wiz?/motao?/archmage?(/???) for the progression. Probably human for the feat and skillpoints. The other party members are a barbarian, a rogue, a beguiler, and a cleric/shadowbane stalker. The world is normal to high magic. We'll be starting at level 10 with standard DMG wealth. Stats as rolled (under DM supervision even) are preliminarily allocated: str 14, dex 18, con 15, wis 14, int 18, cha 13. (I'm really hoping the dice gods don't decide those need to be balanced out by sucky rolls for the rest of my life). The level 4 and 8 stat points will of course go to int. I'm wondering what the best spells would be useful while avoiding overlap with the beguiler and cleric. What niche should I be aiming for? Is there anything that might be redundant but still a "memorize it anyway" spell? Also, some suggestions about feats that work well with a generalist build would really help. There's just way too much stuff to read! |
| #2cuindlessApr 04, 2008 2:48:20 | If you absolutely insist on going generalist, I recommend a Grey Elf with the Elven Wizard substitution levels from Races of the Wild. Both those options will give you more spells. As for spell selections that won't overlap with Beguiler and Cleric spell lists, you're looking at Conjuration, Transmutation and Necromancy. Evocation spells aren't that common in the Beguiler or Cleric spell lists, but the wizard Evocation options aren't that great. They are generally considered sub-optimal. Feats are largely dependent on the role you want your wizard to play. A battlefield controller would be best to go for Metamagic School Focus and Sculpt Spell, while a focused debuffer would probably go for something like Arcane Thesis, Split Ray and Twin Spell. I recommend Treantmonk, Dictum Mortuus and The Logic Ninja's guides on optimizing a wizard. They can be found on the CO boards. Lastly, I would recommend checking out the Incantatrix PrC. It is filled with awesome and win. |
| #3kerelisApr 04, 2008 7:58:13 | I always suggest figuring out what sort of mage you want and then work backward from there. Does he prefer to do subtle things like cast Suggestion? Does he like summoning extraplanar creatures? What is his alignment? Does he have some sort of philosophy that would affect what sort of spells he casts? Is he fascinated by magical theory or could he care less as long as he can cast a flashy spell? I always prefer to establish a personality before I figure out the spells/classes, etc. Figure out what sort of character you want to play, then the other details will become more and more obvious. The previous poster did give good advice. You should read those guides. Battlefield control IS very powerful. I use it a lot myself. Good builds are great, but I think it is more fun to create a character you really like to play rather than one that is necessarily build optimized. |
| #4lsmftApr 04, 2008 10:37:00 | With the beguiler in your party, it is pretty easy to avoid overlapping him. His spell list is fixed. Most of his spells are enchantments and illusions. And he has a very good selection of them. (I’m not a huge fan of specialization myself, but, with a beguiler in the party, I would at least consider it, dropping the two schools he favors.) With the cleric, it is a bit harder. He looks to be the primary healer, but at level 10 he could be thinking that he will leave most of that to items. In which case, he has a number of options, tank, buffer, utility. And he can change his focus daily. I would look at buff spells he does not have access to. Grab those for sure. My next priority is going to be defense. Greater Mage Armor (they dropped the material component in the updated, Spell Compendium, version) and a lesser rod of Extend spell. A mithral buckler gives you a shield bonus with no armor check or ASF. I round that out with some miss-chance granting spells or items: Displacement is always nice. And False Life. The more temp hit points the better. Works well Empowered. You also need a GFoD plan. (Get the **** outta Dodge). You’re a wizard: the best way to kill you is to either get the drop on you or tie you up so you cannot cast. I like to have a Silent Dimension Door prepared for when the monk with Silence on him grapples me. After that, offence. I look for direct damage to an area and to an individual. I like to have a lot of energy options open, but also force. (With the energy types, I’m not looking so much at bypassing resistance as hoping to target a vulnerability. You can get this with having a wide mix of spells in you book, but access to Energy Substitution, rod or feat, is also good. In your case, maybe rod as you might eventually get Mastery of Elements from your Archmage High Arcana.) In addition to damage, I want save-or-die/suck spells. Try to have options that target will and fort saves. But debuffs are really the best way to go, in my opinion. Most are very reliable and can whittle an opponent down to where the melee guys can mop them up easily. Enervation is a fave and those that sap strength, dex, intelligence are also very effective. Area control: You want to control the battlefield. Walls, Evard’s, and clouds. Movement: Teleportation, planar travel, these things are yours. After that, utility. Detections, the ability to see invisible or in darkness, these sorts of things. Finally, your cleric is probably going to suck up most of the healing stuff, but what happens when his is cursed, enchanted, poisoned? Some of those Remove and Neutralize spells should be available to you. If you read that, you clearly saw this involves knowing far more spells than you can get for free and having access to more spells than you can dream of casting in a day. Even with a feat like Collegiate Wizard (almost doubles the spells I get in my book for free), I will be investing about 15% of my starting wealth in my spellbook. As a generalist, you have to have access to the spells. Also, I’m looking at another 20% maybe in items like scrolls and wands. Less likely to be used/more expensive in scrolls. Lower-level/frequent use in wands. That’s a huge investment. But, you can shift the equation in your favor with some item-creation feats. Craft Wondrous has the most versatility, use it to cover your stat-boosting items at the very least and you can regain some of that wealth you sunk into spells and scrolls. (You can save 8,000 gp by crafting instead of buying a Headband of Intellect +4. That 8,000 gp you saved is the cost of 53 spell-levels added to your book or 22 fourth-level scrolls.) |
| #5cuindlessApr 04, 2008 15:34:25 | See, I'm of the opposite mind of LSMFT. I love specialists. I especially love Focused Specialists (Controllers and Transmuters mainly, though I have run a Focused Necromancer or two). The additional spells with the minimal drawbacks are the primary motivator (read Treantmonk's awesome guide for ideas). I also loathe direct damage and save or die/suck in all their various forms. Direct damage is too easy to overcome. Save or die turns you into a glory hog or a glass cannon. For me a mix of buff, debuff and battlefield control is the ultimate caster. I'm also not a big fan of single use and/or charge based magic items because, well, they run out. I'd much rather spend my disposable income on things that give me more spells (Rings of Wizardry, Headbands of Intellect, Pearls of Power, et cetera). Also, for that supposedly missing versatility from being a specialist: Mage of the Arcane Order PrC. Spellpool is probably the single coolest thing available. My favorite is Focused Conjurer 5/Master Specialist 4/Mage of the Arcane Order 7/Paragnostic Apostle 1/Archmage 3. For a generalist, though, I'm not sure. Check out Paragnostic Apostle, Archmage (always) and possibly Mage of the Arcane Order. |
| #6ysaraApr 05, 2008 3:27:50 | Thanks to everyone who responded. It gave me some useful directions to go in, especially If you absolutely insist on going generalist, I recommend a Grey Elf with the Elven Wizard substitution levels from Races of the Wild. Both those options will give you more spells. I'm definitely going to try to convince the DM to let me take that. I was kind of annoyed at the lack of +int classes in the PHB. Lots of really useful stuff. This is exactly what I needed, since sorting through all the various spells and trying to compare them (ok, trying to *remember* them) has been frustrating. Check out Paragnostic Apostle Oh, I love love love that. Somehow I missed it when scanning through the books, but this and Collegiate Wizard are both perfect for the character who's been floating around in my head the last few days. If there's a next time though, I'll definitely have to do a specialist of some kind, since everyone seems to be really into them for some reason ;) |
| #7lsmftApr 06, 2008 11:09:03 | I also loathe direct damage and save or die/suck in all their various forms. Direct damage is too easy to overcome. Save or die turns you into a glory hog or a glass cannon. For me a mix of buff, debuff and battlefield control is the ultimate caster. I have the same values. But, as a generalist, your watchword is options. You want as many options available to you as possible. I'm also not a big fan of single use and/or charge based magic items because, well, they run out. I'd much rather spend my disposable income on things that give me more spells (Rings of Wizardry, Headbands of Intellect, Pearls of Power, et cetera). Those are all great, but scrolls and wands are gap-fillers, tool boxes. All those things are on my list, but none of them help you when you need the right spell, and don't have access. In the long run, srcolls and wands are pretty cheap, scrolls especially as you craft them yourself. Also, for that supposedly missing versatility from being a specialist: Mage of the Arcane Order PrC. Spellpool is probably the single coolest thing available. My favorite is Focused Conjurer 5/Master Specialist 4/Mage of the Arcane Order 7/Paragnostic Apostle 1/Archmage 3. It takes a minute to access the spellpool, so in combat is out. You have limited access per day. It is one of the best ways to deal with the loss of access, but generalists don't have to deal at all. The other thing I dislike about them, specialists, is that, core, there is nothing they can do that a generalist can't. Non-core, variants like those in UA and PHBII as well as PrCs like Master Specialist do a lot to remedy this though. This is exactly what I needed, since sorting through all the various spells and trying to compare them (ok, trying to *remember* them) has been frustrating. I tend to look at spells in terms of roles. (Direct damage, debuff, battlefield control, etc.) My priority is getting all those areas covered. But how you cover them is still pretty wide open. When it comes to that, I’m all about what seems cool and fits the way the character feels. |
| #8cuindlessApr 06, 2008 11:28:30 | I have the same values. But, as a generalist, your watchword is options. You want as many options available to you as possible. I think that the generalist's versatility is a house of cards. In fact, I think a generalist has less options than a specialist or focused specialist because of the fewer number of spells. CORE only, a specialist gets one more spell per day. If you cut out evocation and enchantment (fairly useless schools anyway) then you aren't sacrificing anything for one more option per day. I think Treantmonk's opinion paper says it best, though. I don't want to just repeat everything he said. Those are all great, but scrolls and wands are gap-fillers, tool boxes. All those things are on my list, but none of them help you when you need the right spell, and don't have access. In the long run, srcolls and wands are pretty cheap, scrolls especially as you craft them yourself. Once again, Treantmonk's guide to "Being God" spells out why self-crafted scrolls are a fairly bad idea. Who wants to spend XP and be forever weaker and behind everyone else. Item creation cripples spellcasting. As for charged items, I'd go with a slightly more expensive use-per-day item. You can use it forever. It takes a minute to access the spellpool, so in combat is out. You have limited access per day. It is one of the best ways to deal with the loss of access, but generalists don't have to deal at all. I don't have the book with me right now, so I'll have to take your word on that full minute thing. It sounds about right, though. Regardless, considering the schools that you're dropping are schools you don't really want anyway. Spellpool is more for access to utility spells that aren't combat necessary anyway. Specialists might have to deal with a missing school, but generalists have to deal with a missing spell. I personally think it's a good trade. The other thing I dislike about them, specialists, is that, core, there is nothing they can do that a generalist can't. Non-core, variants like those in UA and PHBII as well as PrCs like Master Specialist do a lot to remedy this though. Whereas I think the "direct damage" role is better covered by the other party members. A wizard can fulfill all the roles, but even the most optimized generalist can't fulfill all of them at the same time. That's why I prefer the Focused Specialist. It allows you to leave the damge to the damage dealers and stick to the stuff that only a spellcaster can do. To the OP: Check out Treantmonk's guide series called "God's Tools" in the CO boards. If you're a generalist you have to pick your spells wisely, and no one has as comprehensive a spell-selection guide as Treantmonk. |
| #9chibishuffleApr 07, 2008 7:59:17 | Hello Im going to second both the collegiate wizard feat from complete arcane as well as grey elf and the elf wizard sub levels. Im also going to recommend you pick up players guide to faerun and ask your DM about the incanatrix. It is the single greatest arcane casting prestige ever. I know its not one of your allowed books but this prestige is so good its worth asking. shuffles |
| #10lsmftApr 07, 2008 21:05:35 | I think that the generalist's versatility is a house of cards. In fact, I think a generalist has less options than a specialist or focused specialist because of the fewer number of spells. CORE only, a specialist gets one more spell per day. If you cut out evocation and enchantment (fairly useless schools anyway) then you aren't sacrificing anything for one more option per day. I think Treantmonk's opinion paper says it best, though. I don't want to just repeat everything he said. I've read it. Mostly. I think you and he are making the same error. You are looking at versatility after you've prepared your spells for the day. Your options and versatility come not then, but when you are looking at all the options from which you can select to fill you slots. If I have 2 slots of a level, the specialist will have 3. And that's big especially at your top tier; I don't deny that. But when I look at picking and choosing which spells to fill my two slots with, it is from a far larger pool than yours. And that what I, at least, mean by versatility. This wider pool of options also extends to items like scrolls and wands as well. Enchantment and evocation are, I agree, the easiest schools to live without, but every school has spells that are worth having. The specialist can make due, but the generalist doesn't have to. I can live without Otiluke's Resilient Sphere. But I'd rather have it on my list. I don't claim that Dominate is absolutely necessary to complete a mission, but when I choose something else, I'd rather do so because I thought that other spell would meet my goals better, not because I didn't have the choice. Once again, Treantmonk's guide to "Being God" spells out why self-crafted scrolls are a fairly bad idea. Who wants to spend XP and be forever weaker and behind everyone else. Item creation cripples spellcasting. As for charged items, I'd go with a slightly more expensive use-per-day item. You can use it forever. Per use items depend a lot on what your DM thinks of crafting. As far has his analysis of crafting in general, I’m not sure what he said. Now, don’t get me wrong: I’m not a huge advocate of crafting. Flavor-wise, not a fan, but, look at the example I already used: 10th-level, crafting a Headband of Intellect +4 and rolling the saved 8,000 into your spell book or scrolls. That is a base cost of 32,000 gp. You’ve saved 16,000 gp by crafting yourself. You spent 825 xp to do it. With 11,000 xp necessary to go from 10th level to 11th, you are 1.5 encounters back from the non-crafter (based on 13.333 encounters per level). And for this, you are possessed of almost a third more wealth than the average starting 10th-level character. It is a trade off, certainly, and value is subjective so whether the trade is worth it is a matter of opinion. But it seems pretty decent to me. In all honestly though, I do not take a lot of crafting feats for wizards, besides Scribe Scroll. But, it is the opportunity costs, the other feats I want instead, that results in this more than the possibility of spending a few xp. Whereas I think the "direct damage" role is better covered by the other party members. Me too. For the most part, why kill myself when I can set up the fighter and let him do it? But, there are things they cannot do. I mean, off the top of my head, I just ran an encounter that went on for six rounds longer than it needed too. They were fighting a mess of weak undead. With one fireball, it would have been a two-to-three round contest, but the sorcerer insisted on using his reserve feats. Every blow from the fighter-guys killed, but you can’t kill more than two or three per round. He saved his slots, but the cleric had to spend his on healing as a result. Had the zombies’ master stuck around, instead of leaving like I decided he would before the encounter started, his minions would have had all of them all tied up, and things could have gone very badly for the PCs. Next time, he isn’t running. I don’t want direct damage to compete with the barbarian’s battle ax. But there I things I can do with damage that he cannot. A wizard can fulfill all the roles, but even the most optimized generalist can't fulfill all of them at the same time. Blasphemer!!!! Yes we can!!! :D |
| #11cuindlessApr 07, 2008 22:55:12 | I've read it. Mostly. I concede that there's more choice, but choice doesn't necessarily equate to versatility. There are a number of ways that Conjurers and Transmuters can be better at Enchantment and Evocation than the so-called Enchanter and/or Evoker. Granted, this is largely because of what I consider poorly written spells, but RAW it stands. Granted, there are spells in both Evocation and Enchantment that are worth having, but I can think of a dozen or so Conjuration, Transmutation and Necormancy spells that do roughly the same thing with barely diminished capacity. Unless you have a cleric willing to cast the divinations necessary to find out what you're going to be facing that day (most of the one's I've met are too busy persisting their buffs), I'm willing to make that trade. Per use items depend a lot on what your DM thinks of crafting. Now wait a second... we're not just talking about money and xp here. We're also talking about feats! Item creation feats take up slots for what I consider to be much more useful feats like Sculpt Spell or Metamagic School Focus. Why should I expend a feat on something that will only require me to expend money and xp on something that will just run out anyway? I'd rather pay an exhorbitant gold cost on a per-day-use item. I even give up Scribe Scroll for Improved Initiative ("Fighter Feats" variant from UA) any day of the week. Me too. For the most part, why kill myself when I can set up the fighter and let him do it? And I think this is where it comes down to personal preference. I'd much rather expend my spell choices on buffs that make the beatsticks better at beatsticking than try to replace them in one or two scenarios. In other words, I'd rather be God than Glass Cannon. I'll grant that blasting is cool from an FX perspective, but I'd rather control the battle than just be a part of it. Blasphemer!!!! Yes we can!!! :D Not with a generalist... too few spells. :P |
| #12lsmftApr 08, 2008 11:15:52 | I concede that there's more choice, but choice doesn't necessarily equate to versatility. The number of choices I have is how I define versatility. Isn’t that why the wizard is considered more versatile than the sorcerer? Granted, there are spells in both Evocation and Enchantment that are worth having, but I can think of a dozen or so Conjuration, Transmutation and Necormancy spells that do roughly the same thing with barely diminished capacity. Right, you can deal with it. Conjuration and Transmutation are enormously powerful schools. But I don’t know of anyways to Charm with transmutation. Now wait a second... we're not just talking about money and xp here. We're also talking about feats! Oh, I acknowledged that. I face the same tough choice and my personal love of metamagic usually wins. But, I get one for free, and one other, like Craft Item, can be very worth the investment. Why should I expend a feat on something that will only require me to expend money and xp on something that will just run out anyway? I assume you will use those items anyway. If you do, then you are paying less in gold, with a very small investment in xp. I'd rather pay an exhorbitant gold cost on a per-day-use item. Entirely within DM’s discresion, especially if you have to find unique items for sale or enlist a crafter. And, at level 10, you may have some weath for stuff like this, but if you are slogging up from the low levels, you just don’t. I even give up Scribe Scroll for Improved Initiative ("Fighter Feats" variant from UA) any day of the week. Ick. And I think this is where it comes down to personal preference. I'd much rather expend my spell choices on buffs that make the beatsticks better at beatsticking than try to replace them in one or two scenarios. In other words, I'd rather be God than Glass Cannon. I'll grant that blasting is cool from an FX perspective, but I'd rather control the battle than just be a part of it. The thing is, when I DM, the BBEG is trying to control the battle too. Filling the arena with low-level minions is a cheap easy way to do it. Clearing the field of those minions is essentially battlefield control. It is all preference though. Discussion of competing theories on what works best are not bad. The more information, the better. Not with a generalist... too few spells. :P Oh, please. :D I will have only 80% of the spells of the specialist, but at level 10, I’m still able to cast over 20 spells per day, not even counting cantrips. And I’m augmenting that with items. |