Our group (all newbies) have just started playing. Anyway, we are on an adventure that is recomended for levels 1-3. It is probably because of lack of tactics but we barely beat the first combat encounter and cant beat the seconds (we all are level 1). Do you suggest we just rough it out or maybe start at a higher level (2 or 3).
Thanks
The umodified adventure can be a real newbie-grinder. I generally dislike it extremely, and think for it to be useable a GM would have to make extensive changes to suit his/her group of players and characters.
You really want to focus on your team dynamic, because even getting past the fact that you're all low levels, you don't want to rely on having much better stats than everything you're fighting. Otherwise, you're going to end up having to "free level" yourselves to fight everything.
I'd really suggest sitting down with your group before playing and discussing your characters' abilities, how you can coordinate damage, and how you can aid each other. If you all come to a consensus, you will have a useful pattern for battle. And if, during battle, you have vastly different initiative checks, you can always delay so that you all take your turns in your desired order.
I didnt know you can change the initiative order. That helps a ton. I think we will have a tactics meeting next time. We fell apart and got mauled (the wyrm priest killed us with his acid blasts).
Two questions...
-When a wizard is shoots flame do allies get hit if they are in range?
- If you move around an enemy (not away) are you still subject to an Opportnity Attack?
The game is great. We're just getting tired of getting whupped on..lol.
Thanks Guys,
Curt
Second: Yes. If you move. You can shift one square as a move action to avoid Opportunity Attacks, but as long as you move (like, walk or run, or attempt a jump, etc.) and leave a square threatened by your enemy (a square they can attack via melee) then you provoke opportunity attacks.
I didn't know you were using the pregenerated characters. How are they handling? I looked at those and thought they were garbage, but that's just my opinion. My party uses all custom characters, even though it's our first campaign.
Hard to say how the pregen guys are handling. Like I said we barely beat the first encounter and are 0-3 on the second. Im not sure if it is a character weakness or we dont know how to fight as a team.
If we make our own characters does anyone have advice on an optimal party (how many melee, magic users, etc)?
Personally, I like the rogue, because it's a really tactical class, relying on consistently getting combat advantage to deal massive damage, but if you're not doing too well, a good starter class would be something more like a fighter or cleric. My friend Pringles keeps wanting to play a wizard, but he really sucks at finding optimal spell placement (for the bursts) to avoid hitting us while hitting a bunch of enemies, so you want to make sure you can avoid that if you play a controller class.
Overall, you can do well with any party configuration, so just put a bit of variety in it and you should be fine. And when you find yourself facing off against a bunch of minions and then some strong monsters, you should ALWAYS kill the minions first. They die fast, and reduce the amount of damage you ultimately take.
Yeah you guys guessed it. It is Keep on Shadowfell. Im glad to hear that it is a tough encounter. We are just using the pregenerated characters so far.
I didnt know you can change the initiative order. That helps a ton. I think we will have a tactics meeting next time. We fell apart and got mauled (the wyrm priest killed us with his acid blasts).
Two questions...
-When a wizard is shoots flame do allies get hit if they are in range?
- If you move around an enemy (not away) are you still subject to an Opportnity Attack?
The game is great. We're just getting tired of getting whupped on..lol.
Thanks Guys,
Curt
First answer: No. All ranged attacks are considered to travel through your allies, and you have line of sight through your allies. This applies to all characters, not just wizards. I like to think of it as "Hey, get down!"
Second: Yes. If you move. You can shift one square as a move action to avoid Opportunity Attacks, but as long as you move (like, walk or run, or attempt a jump, etc.) and leave a square threatened by your enemy (a square they can attack via melee) then you provoke opportunity attacks.
I didn't know you were using the pregenerated characters. How are they handling? I looked at those and thought they were garbage, but that's just my opinion. My party uses all custom characters, even though it's our first campaign.
Worried there might be a disconnect in the communication
Are you refering to Scorching Burst which hits all creatures in an area? Than yes the target line says creatures so it does not distinguish friend from foe. Some powers will say enemy only so you do not have to worry if an ally is in the area affected by the power.
Making your own characters helps because for one thing, you are more interested in them and it makes the game more fun, and also since you chose and built them, you should understand their mechanics better. Note that the starting rules and the pregen characters are both from a non-final version of the rules, as well as being intentionally somewhat "rules-lite" as an intro.
SPOILERS: Which second encounter are you referring to? Actually, the first three in the original version can all kill you for whatever reason.
Keep on the Shadowfell received some updates in the form of a a substantial online remake, your DM can download here: www.wizards.com/DnD/TryDnD.aspx
At the same link, you can get the Character Builder, which makes it somewhat easier to make level 1-3 characters once you figure the program's oddities out.
Honestly, Keep on the Shadowfell, as a whole, is a meat grinder. Several encounters were apparently toned down in the updated version, but there's no easy "update" printout.
I did not like the original version at all as a player, and I think it's a terrible introduction to D&D 4th edition due to skewed rules, excessive difficulty and almost entirely meaningless encounters, and (at least in the original version) a dearth of loot. But, some people do like it.
That aside, if you view it purely as a little, "railroady" intro, "get used to the rules a bit while hanging out with your friends" sort of thing rather than "this is exactly how D&D 4e is," you might have a better time.
Also I agree with some above, the characters that come with that adventure are not very well made. Grab the Character Builder and build yourself a character. For a group of 4-6 players you should have at least one person for each 'role' in the game. Note that the Character Builder is free for making 1st lvl characters but if you want to go higher you need to get a subscription to DDI. Some groups share a single subscription and everyone chips in for it, but its up to you. There are some very handy tools for DMs on there not to mention the magazine content.
Also have your DM download the starter set on the website. It includes a digital version of Keep on the Shadow Fell that has been updated with changes, balances, fixes and such. So your DM can make sure he or she is on top of things when you play. Mind it is still quite a challenging adventure, so good luck!
Rather than examine the possibility that perhaps the encounter was unbalanced - a theory supported now by many anecdotal testimonials - coupled with the fact that this was all of our first time playing 4e, he declared that if we couldn't even handle the first encounter in a beginner module we were hopeless, ended the game right there, and refused to run 4e for us ever again.
Everything said here has been great advice.
- Make sure the encounters are balanced to your number of players.
- Fill the roles. Maybe make a quick visit to the CharOp boards to get some ideas of solid builds. NOT to make crazy optimized characters, just to see some solid choices.
- Try to find a complementary party. Having a Taclord granting melee attacks is only good with a couple of people who can make melee basics with reasonable hit and damage.
- Have fun!
Edit: It is a very combat heavy module so just keep that idea in mind. The Keep on the Shadowfell is a BIG dungeon.
1) As mentioned by several people already, Keep on the Shadowfell is notably difficult for it's intended level range. You might wish to start with a less difficult adventure/module to begin with.
2) Don't use the pre-gen characters. Yes, it will take a bit more getting used-to to figure out how to build a character from scratch, but it will be worthwhile. In my experience, pre-gen characters usually have the most bland and generic feats available; they represent an average character rather than a good one. I suspect this is even more so for pre-gen characters bundled with KotS; the date of the module means the characters are probably Core rules only, and so much has been released since then.
2a) Rather than use pre-gens, I suggest you create optimized characters. You'll be able to complete more challenging encounters with them. The Character Optimization section of these boards has numerous guides devoted toward optimizing any class.
3) As an extension of optimization, try to ensure that your party members have good synergy. For example, if you have a Warlord that grants melee basic attacks with his powers, make sure someone else in the party can make strong melee basic attacks (like a Fighter or Paladin). Some classes and powers work less well with each other than others.
Edit: Lol, trickster beat me to it.
All said and done, we are having a blast. Even when we lose the combat is tense, deep and exciting.
Love 4e so far.
Oh, and another common mistake when transitioning to 4e is to have everyone sort of spread out and do their own thing. You should really concentrate on one or two targets at a time, and work together to eke out every bonus possible (flanking, Dazing etc.).
Ahhh. Thats exactly what we have been doing. "You take that guy, and I'll handle the ranged kobold...etc"
So focus the whole party on one or two baddies? I suppose taking out a foe on a turn or two is worth the risk of leaving some of yourself exposed to non-engaged bad guys.
Actually since we are on the subject...
The scenerio we are in there are:
3 Kobold Dragonsheilds
1 Kobold Skirmisher
1 Wyrm Priest
Would you suggest going after the Wyrm Priest first? He seems to be the most dangerous.
Note that sometimes it's worth it to spread out. Like the defender that's alone holding back the group, while the rest pile up, or it's the striker that goes to the back and kills the wyrm priest, or the controller can hit 5 creatures, even if the focus fire one isn't near by.
But generaly you'll want to focus on 1-2 creatures till they drop.
Oh, and another common mistake when transitioning to 4e is to have everyone sort of spread out and do their own thing. You should really concentrate on one or two targets at a time, and work together to eke out every bonus possible (flanking, Dazing etc.).
I find people who have played previous editions are more prone to being dead-ed in 4E. We had a simple encounter last game that almost killed the Rogue because she rushed two goblins, leaving the rest of the party behind. Okay yes, she managed to Sneak Attack one but she thought Goblins in 4E would have the 1-8hp or whatever that they used to. She wasn't expecting each of the two to have over 50. Or to work together with Goblin Tactics to pen her in.
Oh, and another common mistake when transitioning to 4e is to have everyone sort of spread out and do their own thing. You should really concentrate on one or two targets at a time, and work together to eke out every bonus possible (flanking, Dazing etc.).
I find people who have played previous editions are more prone to being dead-ed in 4E. We had a simple encounter last game that almost killed the Rogue because she rushed two goblins, leaving the rest of the party behind. Okay yes, she managed to Sneak Attack one but she thought Goblins in 4E would have the 1-8hp or whatever that they used to. She wasn't expecting each of the two to have over 50. Or to work together with Goblin Tactics to pen her in.
Agreed. Heck, I've got an old-timer in my group that still comments about how 'tough' kobolds are and we've been playing 4e since it was released.
Having played Keep on the Shadowfell I can say with coviction EVERY PREGENERATED CHARACTOR SUCKED MASSIVE BALLS and if we'd played the mod with actual first level player built PCs (which you can't do) we would have had a much easier time. The first combat by the way IS NOTHING comared to the final one who in their right mind thought it was good idea to have a bunch of poorly built first level PCs FIGHT AN ELITE DEMON LORD talk about a back loaded adventure
Ummm... By the end of KotS, you should be right about level 3, and have at least *some* survivabliity.
-Sarena
So focus the whole party on one or two baddies? I suppose taking out a foe on a turn or two is worth the risk of leaving some of yourself exposed to non-engaged bad guys.
Actually since we are on the subject...
The scenerio we are in there are:
3 Kobold Dragonsheilds
1 Kobold Skirmisher
1 Wyrm Priest
Would you suggest going after the Wyrm Priest first? He seems to be the most dangerous.
Enemies just don't die nearly as fast and easy, so if you don't focus then they just end up standing there and attacking you anyway. It doesn't matter if you "engage" them or not usually: Either way one of your group will be attacked.
With Controllers and Artillery, it may be worth one or two of you making a dash for them, because they can really screw things up for you guys and frequently don't have lots of HP. However, if they're Elite monsters, just one guy running off after him to do damage will just leave you all getting attacked much longer by all the other enemies.
Getting the Controllers and Artillery first is desirable, but frequently not possible, and it may actually be better to take a few lumps and clear out their guardians first.
I will also note, that since you've played the encounter a couple of times, you should know that (all) kobold monsters have an at-will Shift 1 as a minor action, so one melee guy running off after an enemy will spend a lot of time chasing and not so much else. Goblins also have a pretty annoying ability.
Some of my general tips for transition are:
Make sure your characters add their entire Con SCORE to their level 1 HP, not just Con Modifier. HP gained from leveling up are based on your class and not your Con score at all, but if you later increase your Con, you also raise HP on a one-for-one basis.
Focus Fire: Unless they're minions, almost all monsters have at least as many hit points as any member of your team, and usually much more. Adventurers always got to push themselves.
Don't dismiss small bonuses like Flanking and Dazing. The system uses little numbers to great effect.
At low levels, you pretty much just have your at-wills. Don't blow your Encounters and Dailies first thing, but also don't save them overlong. Use them when it will be the most effective (or when you're desperate). There's no prize for still having encounter powers left over after a fight though (you will rarely if ever face a second encounter right away before a short rest unless your DM specifically wants you to).
Yes, you can move and then charge. You don't have to run in a "straight" line along horizontal, vertical or diagonal; the square system skews the world's dimensions, so pretty much all "jagged" movement is straight.
When choosing powers as you level up, think about what the actual rules ramifications are for the powers in practice. For instance, Fireball is a pretty bad power, because it just does a little damage across a wide area. If you wanted to clear out minions, then the damage doesn't matter, but doing just a piddling amount of damage to everything is probably a near-waste of your time, but may make you a bigger target.
Try to choose attacks that can target a couple of different defenses if possible. Monster defenses can vary wildly. Some big bruisers might have a Fortitude or AC 8 points higher than their Reflex for instance.
Remember that players and creatures can only make Immediate actions when it isn't their turn.
Most encounter areas favor the monsters, or at least don't help the players any. If you think you can get them to follow you, it may be worth changing locations.
When KotS was brand spanking new our group decided to give it, and 4e, a spin. We hit that first encounter and it was a total meatgrinder. We eventually won with no character losses but we exhausted a huge amount of our dailies and resources in doing so.
Well, I feel awesome now. Just started it last thursday and we in fact blew through this with only the barbarian and cleric becoming bloodied, which the cleric fixed with healing word alone (healing word actually being the only encounter/daily used IIRC, though the shielding swordmage may have popped blazing pursuit). My assualt swordmage got hit once despite his best efforts to the contrary which didn't do anything since the enemy he was engaging happened to be marked by the shielding swordmage :3.
So yeah, I would venture a guess that the lack of tactics and the use of pregen charries are the primary issues here.
The last time we played encounter 2 (H-1) we got down to the Kobold Wyrmpriest who killed our last character. This time only one character got ko'd (who just got swamped) but we cleaned house. Having lost that scenerio 3 times before, this was pretty awesome. Its like a whole new game when you kind of know what you are doing.
Anyway, I just wanted to say thanks to all the advice you guys gave. I appreciate it.
Curt
Taking all your advice our group made new characters. We looked ate eachothers powers/abilities and formulated a plan. We focused on 1 enemy at a time and had our healer(s) charge up anyone that was taking too much damage.
The last time we played encounter 2 (H-1) we got down to the Kobold Wyrmpriest who killed our last character. This time only one character got ko'd (who just got swamped) but we cleaned house. Having lost that scenerio 3 times before, this was pretty awesome. Its like a whole new game when you kind of know what you are doing.
Anyway, I just wanted to say thanks to all the advice you guys gave. I appreciate it.
Curt
Heh. My whole group played DnD for the first time back in May and I can definitely attest that there's a fairly steep 2-4 game learning curve to the game. (As a side note, I can also attest that the "Escape from Sembia" adventure is NOT appropriate for brand new players and characters. Not exactly fun to have a TPK on your first game ever.) After that first period though, things get a lot simpler, faster, and more fun.
All the suggestions given here have been spot on, and you would have discovered them in time I'm sure. Watch your tactics, work together, concentrate fire and find your roles in the party. Oh, and do your best to find interesting ways to do things, don't just rely on powers. I started trying to encourage combat creativity at a certain point in our games but it just wasn't clicking with people. Then in game once I was playing two different chars. One char pushed a monster off of an open stairwell for some falling damage onto some beds below, then spent an action point and jumped down on top the monster, dealing more damage (and taking some), breaking the beds in the process. At that point the sorcerer comes into the room to find my char lying on a broken bed in a 69 position with a monster.
Meanwhile the other character I was playing is fighting on a balcony in the next room and uses a power to teleport the enemy two squares to the right ... off the balcony, and promptly falling for some extra damage. (Yes, technically it was a rules violation, but the DM allowed for the purposes of fun.) It was that round that you could see the light bulbs come on in people's heads. "Oh, so that what 'using your environment' means..." Can I mark/quarry/curse this turn?
Can I move into flank?
If I charge, did I do everything else before hand?
Can I give anyone else a bonus?
Things like this help you remember until it becomes second nature. I feel like there is a lot and even too much to try to remember all the time in 4e anyways.
Big hint but not spoiler. Have your DM (if he will) change the magic items in the adventure to ones that your new classes can use and would want. Otherwise, you will come up very low on useful magic items at the end of the adventure.
> allies, and you have line of sight through your allies. This applies to all
> characters, not just wizards. I like to think of it as "Hey, get down!"
This should probably be clarified further.
Allies don't provide cover to enemies when an attack is passing through their space on the way to its destination. A wizard can cast Magic Missile at an enemy and the ally between them is in no danger, and likewise the rogue throwing a dagger. Likewise, Scorching Burst will not endanger the ally simply because he's between the wizard and the spell's destination.
However, allies *will* be affected if the attack is a burst/blast, they are within th area of the attack, and the power targets "all creatures in burst/blast" instead of "all enemies in burst/blast". The default wizard's Burning Hands is dangerous to allies as well as to enemies, for example, and Scorching Burst will hurt an ally if he's in the burst at its destination.