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Gold

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Chimerasame
Aug 08, 2009 20:15:39 I'm curious how other people feel about their gold intake in their games.

I've played two 4e campaigns, one near the birth of the system, from 1st-3rd level; we got about halfway through Keep on the Shadowfell before the game fell apart. The DM allowed us to sell mundane goods for 1/3 list price, which was very generous (especially since it applied even to goblin/kobold armor and weapons.) We never felt like we were lacking for money in that game, and although we couldn't simply buy anything we wanted, we could keep up with what the game seems to expect as you rise in level. I think we all had 1 magic item at some point when 2nd, and we were about average 2 each at 3rd when the game ended.

Now I've played a campaign from 4th-8th in the GM's homebrew world. He says he's being generous with rewards (giving us more than suggested because he wants us to feel free to spend money on rituals), but, in the 4+ levels of play I think my share of the party loot has amounted to about 1800gp. That includes the residuum gained from magic items we don't need, and from magic items I and other party members 'cash back in' when we upgrade. I run and divvy the party loot myself, so I know there's no monkey business there...

At no point in my adventuring career have I had enough money to purchase a single item of my level. I try not to waste it too much. I just bought Eagle Eye Goggles (level 2; 520gp) to give myself a +1 to one of my at-wills which happens to count as a ranged basic, and that's the only magic item I've bought. It'd be nice to actually be able to buy an on-level magic item I want, on occasion, instead of just being able to use what the DM hands out. (If it were a low-magic campaign I'd understand restricting our magic gain, but that's not it; the world itself seems to have about the average amount of magic. He even gave us Enchant Magic Item and Disenchant rituals for free... just seems we can never use them except to create some low-heroic incidentals.)

Personally I'm pretty comfortable with the items he's given out as rewards (with the exception of armor; I'd really like Tactician's... but I like his staffs and belts and stuff), but a couple other players seem to have issues with the weapons they're getting. I'm not sure if they've talked to the DM about what they want; I suggested they do that.

Has anyone else had this problem? How much 'money' is someone supposed to have? It seems to me that in an average-power campaign, a character should be able to purchase an item of their choice equal to their level at least once every 3-4 levels or so.

I feel like the "20%" rule for disenchanting/selling is too severe. Converting won treasure into choosable income is an advantage, so I don't think selling at 100% is appropriate, but I don't get why it has to be such a huge drop in price. I'm thinking that if I ran a campaign, which I'm considering doing sometime soon, disenchanting/selling might give more like 50%... would this break the game?
#2
Caeric
Aug 08, 2009 20:28:16 The DMG's treasure system has the pitfalls you list purposefully. The problem the designers have cited they found in 3.5 was that treasure in 3.5 was very often treated as piles of gold. Everyone sold whatever they bought and bought exactly what they wanted; in the end, no DM has a reason to give the PCs anything but heaps of gold.
So the designers made a system where you were dependant on your DM's treasure-dropping abilities, if you wanted a magic item of utility. The monetary gains are supposed to be a barrier, as you've felt them to be. When you start a character at a higher level, they say that you get gold of an amount equal to a magic item of your level - 1 in value (a level 5 gets a level 4 magic item's worth of gold). This system makes a magic item you find in a quest ideal, because it's a reward you definately couldn't afford otherwise.

If your DM isn't dropping loot that you can use and enjoy, then it might be a good idea to bring it to his attention. Have him change how he's dealing with the loot. He either pays attention to what items you guys want (which would involve you guys writing small lists, I suggest), or you guys work together to create a system that you all enjoy better for parcelling out rewards.

I like the system myself. But I'm pretty willy-nilly with which magic items I enjoy playing with. As long as my sorcerer isn't tossed a greataxe.
#3
Shiftkitty
Aug 08, 2009 20:45:15 I don't think your request is unreasonable, and I've been a DM for 26 years now. You should be able to buy at least one special item of your level. Whether or not they're available is another thing. I don't use Magic Emporiums in my game, but you might, if you look hard enough (read: let's roleplay!) you may find one in an exotic curio shop, or offered for sale by someone who desperately needs the money.

I had the opposite problem of inheriting a Monty Haul game where the players had stuff that was waaaaay above their level (2e). They had too much gold, too much stuff, too much everything. I had to fix the problem OOG by talking to the players about my concerns, and to my surprise, they accepted the game solution of being kidnapped and waking up in a slaver's compound, their goods (most of them, at least) already sold on the black market. Turns out they weren't having much fun with everything being a cakewalk.

I threw out the 20% deal on selling items right off the bat. That was too damned low. 50-75% depending on the rarity of the item, condition, etc. is what we've been doing since 1e and it hasn't bothered anyone yet.

It looks like he's stiffing you on the magic goods. Have you asked him about your concerns? It may be a good idea to talkto him. It doesn't sound like you're being unreasonable.

A flipside question is, has not having the items stunted your party? Are encounters harder than they should be? If there is a mechanical concern, getting the loot count up to snuff might be game-saving.
#4
kouk
Aug 08, 2009 22:11:06 If there are 5 players, and you've been playing levels 4, 5, 6, 7 and are pretty much done with 8, you would have gotten about 19,280gp, and split 5 ways would be 3,856gp each. This is not considering your old gear.

So after 4 levels, you should actually be able to buy an item of your level (8).

I don't know if you're just going by memory that you got 1,800gp total or what, but if that's the case, including resale/disenchantment of old items, then you are actually a fair bit poorer than the books would say you should be.

Note that any time the DM throws in "extra" stuff he likely takes it from the gold value. If you get more than about 4 items per level, he may be putting in those extra items in place of gold. Also, potions come out of your gold supply as well, as do reagents and other consumables most likely.

A problem with the DM giving too many "gifts" is that he's spending your money for you, and may not make the same choices you would have.

Money is extremely rare though in 4th edition. You're supposed to value what you find above anything you make or buy.
#5
Chimerasame
Aug 09, 2009 11:45:30
The problem the designers have cited they found in 3.5 was that treasure in 3.5 was very often treated as piles of gold. Everyone sold whatever they bought and bought exactly what they wanted; in the end, no DM has a reason to give the PCs anything but heaps of gold.

Yeah, I agree, 3.x was silly in that regard unless the DM homebrewed more difficult item-acquisition rules or item-selling rules. I think the game intended DMs to do this (you simply can't find a market for that +4 Flame Burst weapon, unless maybe you go to Sigil or City of Brass or something!), but many didn't, so 4e made it more rigid; more severe. Personally, I think it overshot. Any drop from 100% and you're inherently losing equivalent-item-levels by cashing in items. So, stuff you find is still generally more valuable than stuff you buy (or make!)--just not five times more. I think 50%, a drop of half, is fine. Or perhaps 30ish percent, modifiable by skills like diplomacy and streetwise for selling, or Arcana/Religion for disenchanting, up to a maximum of 50%. I'd have to playtest and run some math to see how that would work out in the long run.

When you start a character at a higher level, they say that you get gold of an amount equal to a magic item of your level - 1 in value (a level 5 gets a level 4 magic item's worth of gold).

While it's true you start with less gold than your level, you also start with three items of your choice, including one above your level! In my experience, I've never been able to afford one of my choice of my level, much less one above. Characters have considerably less choice in their items as they rise up. Now, I'm not saying we haven't gotten good items. DM gave us a defensive staff +3, which is really above and beyond for 8th level. The sorc likes his weapon, so I took it. (Invoker.) We have no wizard, so one of its properties is useless (So I'd say it ranks in usefulness as 12th level and not 13th.) But I'm still using a +3 weapon where I had +2 before, and +1 to NADs to boot. I couldn't have gotten a +3 by creating an 8th (or even 9th) level character. This is excellent, and is one of the reasons I'm saying I don't feel too personally hindered by this DM's reward style.

Other players are having the same issues with their weapons and armor that I'm only having with my armor. Tacticians is superb for me, and my backpack's still got the +1 Tacticians I brought in at character creation. I was hoping I'd be rich enough to just 'upgrade' the enchantment on that to +2/+3 etc (and perhaps transfer the enchantment to braidmail/finemail as appropriate), but it looks like I'll only ever be rich enough to upgrade it to iLvl 10th when I'm about 12th or 13th or so; rich enough to upgrade it to 15th when I'm 17th? (Again, not a huge deal; I'd rather have my staff and worse armor than a +2 staff and +2 tactician's.) Some people are feeling that their weapon choices are prohibitive, though, which to me is somewhat of a bigger deal than armor; it takes more of an active role in what you do round to round.

A flipside question is, has not having the items stunted your party? Are encounters harder than they should be? If there is a mechanical concern, getting the loot count up to snuff might be game-saving.

This is hard to tell. I think the DM likes to design overpowered encounters from time to time, and then scale back behind the scenes if he thinks we're being overwhelmed. I can't be sure of that, but we always seem to do considerably better when the DM is by himself, than when we have 'guest' players come in, and the DM lets them run a couple of the soldiers/brutes/artillery etc, or a group of minions. I think the guests tend to be out for blood, playing their selected monsters to the best of their ability, whereas the DM usually plays monsters in whatever way maximizes players' overall enjoyment. (Tactically hard when they need to be, soft if it's heading for a TPK, etc.) I think overall we're not too hindered tactically by using the DM's choice of weapons as opposed to what our choice would be--but it's more of an issue of players' personal preferences than overall skill. We wouldn't be hindered tactically if I was a wizard instead of an invoker, but I like being an invoker.

If there are 5 players, and you've been playing levels 4, 5, 6, 7 and are pretty much done with 8, you would have gotten about 19,280gp, and split 5 ways would be 3,856gp each. This is not considering your old gear.

Are you counting magic item rewards or only monetary rewards?

I don't know if you're just going by memory that you got 1,800gp total or what,

Well, before I bought those goggles, I had 1700, and I'm figuring I had spent a total of about 100 on rituals and random incidental expenses and such. I might be underestimating slightly, but only by another 100 or so. Still much less than 3856.

Now, one thing I will say, is that a few times, rituals and potions have been purchased right out of the party fund before it got divvied. This is a more substantial amount, maybe totalling 1250 gp or so over our whole adventuring career. (500 of that was a raise dead.) Five ways, that's another 250 out of my cut, so accounting for that, I would have gotten maybe 2200 or so?

Overall it sounds like our DM is being tighter with gold than he thinks he is being, but that even if he were not doing so, the players wouldn't have as much gold as we'd like. However, we would at least be able to afford on-level items if we don't waste too much money.
#6
kouk
Aug 09, 2009 14:51:18
Are you counting magic item rewards or only monetary rewards?

I just totaled the amount of monetary rewards the DMG shows for levels 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8. That would be everything except for 4 higher-level magic items per level.

By the way, it's generally becoming more accepted that the party won't split their cash evenly, but instead fills in holes for the party altogether. Not always easy to do if your characters like their own personal hoards, but it does make purchases more frequent.
#7
pyromancer2k
Aug 15, 2009 13:20:52
Are you counting magic item rewards or only monetary rewards?

In case you wondering here is what you should have at the end of each level in total value including item value. Note these are averages and due to differences in item levels it can vary a bit among players in the group.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Chimerasame Aug 08, 2009 20:15:39	I'm curious how other people feel about their gold intake in their games. I've played two 4e campaigns, one near the birth of the system, from 1st-3rd level; we got about halfway through Keep on the Shadowfell before the game fell apart. The DM allowed us to sell mundane goods for 1/3 list price, which was very generous (especially since it applied even to goblin/kobold armor and weapons.) We never felt like we were lacking for money in that game, and although we couldn't simply buy anything we wanted, we could keep up with what the game seems to expect as you rise in level. I think we all had 1 magic item at some point when 2nd, and we were about average 2 each at 3rd when the game ended. Now I've played a campaign from 4th-8th in the GM's homebrew world. He says he's being generous with rewards (giving us more than suggested because he wants us to feel free to spend money on rituals), but, in the 4+ levels of play I think my share of the party loot has amounted to about 1800gp. That includes the residuum gained from magic items we don't need, and from magic items I and other party members 'cash back in' when we upgrade. I run and divvy the party loot myself, so I know there's no monkey business there... At no point in my adventuring career have I had enough money to purchase a single item of my level. I try not to waste it too much. I just bought Eagle Eye Goggles (level 2; 520gp) to give myself a +1 to one of my at-wills which happens to count as a ranged basic, and that's the only magic item I've bought. It'd be nice to actually be able to buy an on-level magic item I want, on occasion, instead of just being able to use what the DM hands out. (If it were a low-magic campaign I'd understand restricting our magic gain, but that's not it; the world itself seems to have about the average amount of magic. He even gave us Enchant Magic Item and Disenchant rituals for free... just seems we can never use them except to create some low-heroic incidentals.) Personally I'm pretty comfortable with the items he's given out as rewards (with the exception of armor; I'd really like Tactician's... but I like his staffs and belts and stuff), but a couple other players seem to have issues with the weapons they're getting. I'm not sure if they've talked to the DM about what they want; I suggested they do that. Has anyone else had this problem? How much 'money' is someone supposed to have? It seems to me that in an average-power campaign, a character should be able to purchase an item of their choice equal to their level at least once every 3-4 levels or so. I feel like the "20%" rule for disenchanting/selling is too severe. Converting won treasure into choosable income is an advantage, so I don't think selling at 100% is appropriate, but I don't get why it has to be such a huge drop in price. I'm thinking that if I ran a campaign, which I'm considering doing sometime soon, disenchanting/selling might give more like 50%... would this break the game?
#2 Caeric Aug 08, 2009 20:28:16	The DMG's treasure system has the pitfalls you list purposefully. The problem the designers have cited they found in 3.5 was that treasure in 3.5 was very often treated as piles of gold. Everyone sold whatever they bought and bought exactly what they wanted; in the end, no DM has a reason to give the PCs anything but heaps of gold. So the designers made a system where you were dependant on your DM's treasure-dropping abilities, if you wanted a magic item of utility. The monetary gains are supposed to be a barrier, as you've felt them to be. When you start a character at a higher level, they say that you get gold of an amount equal to a magic item of your level - 1 in value (a level 5 gets a level 4 magic item's worth of gold). This system makes a magic item you find in a quest ideal, because it's a reward you definately couldn't afford otherwise. If your DM isn't dropping loot that you can use and enjoy, then it might be a good idea to bring it to his attention. Have him change how he's dealing with the loot. He either pays attention to what items you guys want (which would involve you guys writing small lists, I suggest), or you guys work together to create a system that you all enjoy better for parcelling out rewards. I like the system myself. But I'm pretty willy-nilly with which magic items I enjoy playing with. As long as my sorcerer isn't tossed a greataxe.
#3 Shiftkitty Aug 08, 2009 20:45:15	I don't think your request is unreasonable, and I've been a DM for 26 years now. You should be able to buy at least one special item of your level. Whether or not they're available is another thing. I don't use Magic Emporiums in my game, but you might, if you look hard enough (read: let's roleplay!) you may find one in an exotic curio shop, or offered for sale by someone who desperately needs the money. I had the opposite problem of inheriting a Monty Haul game where the players had stuff that was waaaaay above their level (2e). They had too much gold, too much stuff, too much everything. I had to fix the problem OOG by talking to the players about my concerns, and to my surprise, they accepted the game solution of being kidnapped and waking up in a slaver's compound, their goods (most of them, at least) already sold on the black market. Turns out they weren't having much fun with everything being a cakewalk. I threw out the 20% deal on selling items right off the bat. That was too damned low. 50-75% depending on the rarity of the item, condition, etc. is what we've been doing since 1e and it hasn't bothered anyone yet. It looks like he's stiffing you on the magic goods. Have you asked him about your concerns? It may be a good idea to talkto him. It doesn't sound like you're being unreasonable. A flipside question is, has not having the items stunted your party? Are encounters harder than they should be? If there is a mechanical concern, getting the loot count up to snuff might be game-saving.
#4 kouk Aug 08, 2009 22:11:06	If there are 5 players, and you've been playing levels 4, 5, 6, 7 and are pretty much done with 8, you would have gotten about 19,280gp, and split 5 ways would be 3,856gp each. This is not considering your old gear. So after 4 levels, you should actually be able to buy an item of your level (8). I don't know if you're just going by memory that you got 1,800gp total or what, but if that's the case, including resale/disenchantment of old items, then you are actually a fair bit poorer than the books would say you should be. Note that any time the DM throws in "extra" stuff he likely takes it from the gold value. If you get more than about 4 items per level, he may be putting in those extra items in place of gold. Also, potions come out of your gold supply as well, as do reagents and other consumables most likely. A problem with the DM giving too many "gifts" is that he's spending your money for you, and may not make the same choices you would have. Money is extremely rare though in 4th edition. You're supposed to value what you find above anything you make or buy.
#5 Chimerasame Aug 09, 2009 11:45:30	The problem the designers have cited they found in 3.5 was that treasure in 3.5 was very often treated as piles of gold. Everyone sold whatever they bought and bought exactly what they wanted; in the end, no DM has a reason to give the PCs anything but heaps of gold. Yeah, I agree, 3.x was silly in that regard unless the DM homebrewed more difficult item-acquisition rules or item-selling rules. I think the game intended DMs to do this (you simply can't find a market for that +4 Flame Burst weapon, unless maybe you go to Sigil or City of Brass or something!), but many didn't, so 4e made it more rigid; more severe. Personally, I think it overshot. Any drop from 100% and you're inherently losing equivalent-item-levels by cashing in items. So, stuff you find is still generally more valuable than stuff you buy (or make!)--just not five times more. I think 50%, a drop of half, is fine. Or perhaps 30ish percent, modifiable by skills like diplomacy and streetwise for selling, or Arcana/Religion for disenchanting, up to a maximum of 50%. I'd have to playtest and run some math to see how that would work out in the long run. When you start a character at a higher level, they say that you get gold of an amount equal to a magic item of your level - 1 in value (a level 5 gets a level 4 magic item's worth of gold). While it's true you start with less gold than your level, you also start with three items of your choice, including one above your level! In my experience, I've never been able to afford one of my choice of my level, much less one above. Characters have considerably less choice in their items as they rise up. Now, I'm not saying we haven't gotten good items. DM gave us a defensive staff +3, which is really above and beyond for 8th level. The sorc likes his weapon, so I took it. (Invoker.) We have no wizard, so one of its properties is useless (So I'd say it ranks in usefulness as 12th level and not 13th.) But I'm still using a +3 weapon where I had +2 before, and +1 to NADs to boot. I couldn't have gotten a +3 by creating an 8th (or even 9th) level character. This is excellent, and is one of the reasons I'm saying I don't feel too personally hindered by this DM's reward style. Other players are having the same issues with their weapons and armor that I'm only having with my armor. Tacticians is superb for me, and my backpack's still got the +1 Tacticians I brought in at character creation. I was hoping I'd be rich enough to just 'upgrade' the enchantment on that to +2/+3 etc (and perhaps transfer the enchantment to braidmail/finemail as appropriate), but it looks like I'll only ever be rich enough to upgrade it to iLvl 10th when I'm about 12th or 13th or so; rich enough to upgrade it to 15th when I'm 17th? (Again, not a huge deal; I'd rather have my staff and worse armor than a +2 staff and +2 tactician's.) Some people are feeling that their weapon choices are prohibitive, though, which to me is somewhat of a bigger deal than armor; it takes more of an active role in what you do round to round. A flipside question is, has not having the items stunted your party? Are encounters harder than they should be? If there is a mechanical concern, getting the loot count up to snuff might be game-saving. This is hard to tell. I think the DM likes to design overpowered encounters from time to time, and then scale back behind the scenes if he thinks we're being overwhelmed. I can't be sure of that, but we always seem to do considerably better when the DM is by himself, than when we have 'guest' players come in, and the DM lets them run a couple of the soldiers/brutes/artillery etc, or a group of minions. I think the guests tend to be out for blood, playing their selected monsters to the best of their ability, whereas the DM usually plays monsters in whatever way maximizes players' overall enjoyment. (Tactically hard when they need to be, soft if it's heading for a TPK, etc.) I think overall we're not too hindered tactically by using the DM's choice of weapons as opposed to what our choice would be--but it's more of an issue of players' personal preferences than overall skill. We wouldn't be hindered tactically if I was a wizard instead of an invoker, but I like being an invoker. If there are 5 players, and you've been playing levels 4, 5, 6, 7 and are pretty much done with 8, you would have gotten about 19,280gp, and split 5 ways would be 3,856gp each. This is not considering your old gear. Are you counting magic item rewards or only monetary rewards? I don't know if you're just going by memory that you got 1,800gp total or what, Well, before I bought those goggles, I had 1700, and I'm figuring I had spent a total of about 100 on rituals and random incidental expenses and such. I might be underestimating slightly, but only by another 100 or so. Still much less than 3856. Now, one thing I will say, is that a few times, rituals and potions have been purchased right out of the party fund before it got divvied. This is a more substantial amount, maybe totalling 1250 gp or so over our whole adventuring career. (500 of that was a raise dead.) Five ways, that's another 250 out of my cut, so accounting for that, I would have gotten maybe 2200 or so? Overall it sounds like our DM is being tighter with gold than he thinks he is being, but that even if he were not doing so, the players wouldn't have as much gold as we'd like. However, we would at least be able to afford on-level items if we don't waste too much money.
#6 kouk Aug 09, 2009 14:51:18	Are you counting magic item rewards or only monetary rewards? I just totaled the amount of monetary rewards the DMG shows for levels 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8. That would be everything except for 4 higher-level magic items per level. By the way, it's generally becoming more accepted that the party won't split their cash evenly, but instead fills in holes for the party altogether. Not always easy to do if your characters like their own personal hoards, but it does make purchases more frequent.
#7 pyromancer2k Aug 15, 2009 13:20:52	Are you counting magic item rewards or only monetary rewards? In case you wondering here is what you should have at the end of each level in total value including item value. Note these are averages and due to differences in item levels it can vary a bit among players in the group.