On the flip side, Sehanine's church, which ordains clerics, is probably less rigidly organized and perhaps even capricious that that of many other deities, giving those who are remarkable but not necessarily perfect in dogma a better chance of being ordained. Furthermore, it's probably not an especially dogmatic body to begin with; Sehanine and her church seem likely to be fairly tolerant of "doing it your way".
My gaming world is leaning heavily towards traditional ideas of good versus evil - I would want clerics of Sehanine to at least be on the side of light. They would not act as fanatically as a traditional LG paladin. But the scope of the religion, and of the traditional image of D&D elves as a good race, if not a Good one, would make it conceivable that Sehanine would have Good clerics as a result. However, elves have never struck me as a race of inquisitors (unless you are talking about the FR sun elves), so they would be more flexible as a result. A human cleric of Sehanine would also adhere to this philosophy, of subtle, balance-assisting Good (ie NG in the old system) rather than inquisitorial, balance-destroying Lawful Good.
I have some issues with the 4e alignment system - I still want good and evil to matter in my world, and for races to be aligned on the old nine-point axes. I see the virtue of the set-up in 4e, but would want to tweak it somewhat to make sure that what began as Good gods end up as Good gods, which means altering the elvish/eladrin pantheon somewhat. (I am using traditional real-world human pantheons rather than the core gods, but will keep the D&D demihuman pantheons as they are currently published, including the exarch/deity split). Morality matters to me as a part of the game, but I do believe there is ample scope for a difference in Good and Lawful Good and would want PC deities, even those Unaligned ones, to reflect the maintenance of a Good balance in the known world.
I don't want to speak for anyone else but - there you go. Why not?!
Sehanine wants her followers to "avoid the blazing light of zealous good and the utter darkness of evil". I think she'd be totally cool with worldly, pragmatic, subtle good. She would hate crusades and the like, but she certainly has good clerics. (She's the god of love, which can be a powerful force for good, for goodness sakes.) Her clerics probably tend towards unaligned more than some other unaligned deities' do, but she can have followers of any alignment. (And an adventurer is an extraordinary person anyway. Even if good clerics of Sehanine are rarish, you still might be one.)
On the flip side, Sehanine's church, which ordains clerics, is probably less rigidly organized and perhaps even capricious that that of many other deities, giving those who are remarkable but not necessarily perfect in dogma a better chance of being ordained. Furthermore, it's probably not an especially dogmatic body to begin with; Sehanine and her church seem likely to be fairly tolerant of "doing it your way".
I actually agree with you but I still feel like I need to say this.
Evil needs love too. Evil wants love too....usually anyway.
At least that's my opinion.
I actually agree with you but I still feel like I need to say this.
Evil needs love too. Evil wants love too....usually anyway.
At least that's my opinion.
Love requires selflessness, and evil doesn't often do selflessness.
OK, sex and lust exist at any alignment, but true love requires a depth of feeling that evil with its selfishness and violence can't comprehend.
An evil character could hanker after some sort of love, but would suppress feelings of weakness within him because love often entails some sort of connection to another person, which an evil person would feel reduce his capacity for action. The evil character could be redeemed through love, but since love is considered effeminate or weak within evil societies, akin to compassion, then love in its truest forms requires some sort of higher understanding than evil can cope with.
The most "loving" example of an evil society I can think of is the Dragonlance Knights of Takhisis, who submitted their personal goals to a broader code or "Vision". However - I haven't read the last third of Dragons of Summer Flame, so this is my reading based on only getting to Tanis' death and not being able to read much further - the love Tanis shows for Steel Brightblade seems to me to set Steel on the road towards redemption rather than simply deepening his evil ways.
It may seem kinda weird, but it wouldn't be evil if it were right.
Its possible that a villain is motivated by what they believe to be love (its really an obsession). Or a villain could be redeemed through love.
Edit:
I can totally see a Good cleric of Sehanine.
Lestanley1979: That only holds true if you believe that someone who is "Evil" is absolutely Diabolic/Demonic/Daemonic in his evil. That said individual has absolutely no Goodness in him whatoever and is evil incarnate. Just because someone is Evil doesn't mean he/she cannot love.
Not necessarily.
Sex and lust are easy as an evil character: they are indulging their personal whims and gratification. What complicates the issue is when they come to feel love for the object of their gratification; they begin to feel motivated to care for that person and start to become good. They may still be a vile torturer and priest of an evil god, for example, but they have begun to feel love and do not act in an evil way towards the person they love.
For it to be true love, and not just obsession, or co-dependency, or lust, or fear, or one person in thrall to someone, it would have to be somewhat unselfish (putting the other person first, which an evil person would not necessarily do, particularly if personal gain was involved). I know a real lout who was somewhat redeemed by having a wife and a handicapped child. If anyone I know is outrightly evil, he was. Once he started caring for his son, loving his son, his whole outlook on life changed and he is now what I would call good (though he is still quite selfish and quite lazy at times).
No-one is wholly evil or even wholly good (well, OK, aside from demons/angels). The idea of true love flies in the face of evil. Someone in love with a minion would have to be capable of selflessness to protect that minion even in a situation where they stand to lose their own life - something evil rarely is. So while evil people can be in love, love itself is incompatible with evil. The moment the person sacrifices personal advantage for someone, they become good (or at least start thinking about becoming "unaligned", because they are acting selflessly.
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NB Disclaimer as to some of my posts here.
I'm sorry, you will have to excuse me, I'm a bit of a traditionalist, both IRL and in-game. I'm really uncomfortable with the moral relativist "evil is just another alignment/cultural outlook/etc." idea - there should be something that distinguishes evil characters from the good PCs. I'm surprised by the way D&D is going - the emphasis on unaligned characters, the dependence on demons/devils in 4e, the World of Warcraft/MTG feel rather than the original high fantasy flavour. I don't see why a cleric of a hitherto good god (Sehanine has been CG in every edition up to now) should not be good now. What distinguishes the PCs from evil people is their capacity for selflessness and their loyalty to their friends and challenge to their evil enemies. Now the emphasis is on "OK, so evil cultists and drow and orcs are people too, let's all team up and go and beat up Asmodeus and rob shopkeepers and kill babies because we're unaligned". As someone who left all that back in college ten years ago I'm having a hard time getting my head back around it.
BTW I'm a liberal Christian, I go out with a Jew, but we don't bring our respective religions to the gaming table. I actually think 4e is great, it's just these moral dilemmas aren't necessarily unique to Christianity. I'm aware that Asmodeus is a villain in the game. But both of us find it uncomfortable that there is so much emphasis on this aspect of the game and think there should be more emphasis on Good as a concept of heroism in the game. I'd once have recommended D&D to kids but I'm not sure I'd do so now - I'm 30 btw and my sister is starting a family so it's a salient point for me.
Which is why I think they should have given the new gods... New names. >_>; Having a Sehanine who bears very little resemblance to Sehanine Moonbow and is Unaligned as opposed to CG just confuses people. (Much like Corellon vs Corellon confuses people and brings Corellon's previous baggage of being 'that elf god' forward into 4e even though he's no longer 'that elf god'.)
Don't you mean Demihuman Deities, Karsus? :P
Don't you mean Demihuman Deities, Karsus? :P
-Yes.
-I, uh, must've been temporarily confused because Sehanine Moonbow really doesn't exist, and that she's really Selûne, and Selûne has a write-up in Faiths and Avatars...Yeah...
The same applies for good, of course. Even the nicest guy of a paladin can have dark thoughts, commit questionable acts, etc. A paladin of law, virtue, honour, and making sure that puppies have someone to hug them whenever they need it, this paladin can still swear when he stubs his toe on something. He can still walk past a starving beggar without giving a donation. He can still wipe out an entire bandit warband without worrying exactly what is going to happen to said warbands families, children, etc.
Nobody is perfect. Equally, nobody is perfectly evil. perfect evil would still feel love anyway. It is not tied to one alignment in any way. Love is simply the desire to spend your life with someone, and see them happy. How many stories feature an innocent queen / princess / whatever, who lives with a despot / tyrant / warlord, where they are happy together, but he simply hides his evil acts from her? The bad guy knows she would not approve, so takes steps to keep her happy, even if escape from his palace is impossible and he could keep her prisoner without any effort at all.