Gray Elf Ability Adjustments - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 bortus Apr 18, 2008 20:37:39	I know that the Gray Elf incurs a -2 Str +2 Dex -2 Con +2 Int and that it's in the monster manual pg.104. I own the MM but what I am wondering since these Gray Elf ability adjustments aren't in my book is there a 3.5 version that has these?
#2 jokey665 Apr 18, 2008 21:12:11	You sure you have the 3.5 MM? It's on page 104.
#3 zeratulcraft Apr 18, 2008 21:36:45	The adjustments actually say "-2 str +2 int, in addition to normal elf adjustments" or the like, which could be where the issue lays.
#4 MrCustomer Apr 18, 2008 21:58:18	in 3.5 they clarify better, but it isn't directly listed in 3.0, but you can infer it by comparing the stats of grey elfs to those of the standard elf. Elfs in 3.0 are listed on page 85 as Str 10, dex 13, con 8, int 11, wis 11, cha 11 that is your typical elf with +2 Dex, -2 Con as listed in the players handbook Grey elfs are listed in 3.0, page 87 as: str 8, dex 13, con 8, int 13, wis 10, cha 11 so as you can see, the grey elf has an additional -2 Str and +2 int adjustment from your typical Elf. You could use this to infer the bonus's to the other Elf races listed in 3.0 if you don't have 3.5 (I have both) as well as the sub races of Dwarfs and gnomes.
#5 bortus Apr 19, 2008 0:17:36	MrCustomer thank you for your response and this answers my question for the most part. So there is a 3.5 MM and mine must be 3.0 and 3.5 IS where it states the ability mods for the Gray Elf on page 104 correct? I need a cut and dry answer or our DM won't allow it. Thank you all and I look forward to your responses.
#6 runestar Apr 19, 2008 0:23:39	If you have the 3.0 DMG, page 57 lists the gray elf's full racial stat mods. There shouldn't be any change in 3.5.
#7 Merestil_Haye Apr 19, 2008 7:49:25	MrCustomer thank you for your response and this answers my question for the most part. So there is a 3.5 MM and mine must be 3.0 and 3.5 IS where it states the ability mods for the Gray Elf on page 104 correct? I need a cut and dry answer or our DM won't allow it. Thank you all and I look forward to your responses. The 3.5 MM lists Grey Elves on page 104. it is explicit that the ability moddifiers for Int and Str are in addition to the racial adjustments for high elves.
#8 Nathreet Apr 19, 2008 8:10:37	Ya, the grey elf has the stat bonuses you listed. He also has the other elf stuff. See www.d20srd.org => monsters => elf => grey elf
#9 MrCustomer Apr 19, 2008 11:14:02	MrCustomer thank you for your response and this answers my question for the most part. So there is a 3.5 MM and mine must be 3.0 and 3.5 IS where it states the ability mods for the Gray Elf on page 104 correct? I need a cut and dry answer or our DM won't allow it. Thank you all and I look forward to your responses. Yes it states it directly in MM 3.5, as you said, otherwise if you are running off of the Moster Manual that only says Core Rulebook III then compare the numbers as I suggested to get the modifiers. 3.5 adds in the racial bonus's to monsters that are generally considered as being playable as PCs for your convenience. The DM's Guide, version 3.0, pg 23 or page 172 of the DM's guide 3.5 even lists the rules for how to determine the racial bonuses of creatures listed in the Monster manual under the heading Ability Scores for Monsters , which supports the method I described for determining the bonuses. Show the DM the rules in the DM's guide, they can be used for determining the racial bonuses of any creature in the MM, so you don't need to find the MM version 3.5 to confirm the racial bonuses.
#10 drmorganes Apr 19, 2008 17:53:52	Ya, the grey elf has the stat bonuses you listed. He also has the other elf stuff. See www.d20srd.org => monsters => elf => grey elf Direct Link The SRD is official material, by the way. d20SRD.org is a popular hyperlinked and searchable online version of the rich text version available directly from Wizards of the Coast. If that's not good enough for your DM... /shrug
#11 bortus Apr 20, 2008 0:04:15	You've all been great and very helpful and I thank you. Ya, my DM for some reason (probably because he's r-e-a-l-l-y old school) doesn't like the idea of using "alternative" if you will races for PC's. He always sets the limit to PH only races which as you all know pretty much limits an otherwise unlimited game. Now I can see exactly what he means in some cases such as the guy I heard about playing a Minotaur Cleric, which is probably atributed to me being from the "old school" days myself, but my idea for playing a Tiefling Rogue was shot down immediately. I figured if we ever get around to playing a Planescape setting there will be no denying me then lol......maybe a Bariur Ranger? Anyway, I really want the Gray Elf and I hope I can get away with it. I personally don't see why not myself. It's really no stretch to me but it might be to him...dunno? p.s Don't tell him I chose the Telling Blow feat for my Rogue from the PH2 or he'll have a coniption! lol
#12 MrCustomer Apr 20, 2008 0:29:14	I don't play old school but your DM should consider letting in some of the playable races from the MM and other source books. There is only ever a problem when people play races that arae far out to left field. As a general rule for my game I allow all humanoid races with a level adjustment of no more then +1 into the game (they have to pay the LA). Yea I would have a problem with a minator, but not with normal humanoids.
#13 ivellius Apr 20, 2008 0:42:44	I don't think it's been mentioned, but the 3.5 DMG has the ability adjustments on page 127.
#14 bortus Apr 20, 2008 3:12:11	I don't think it's been mentioned, but the 3.5 DMG has the ability adjustments on page 127. WOW!!! Ivellius you da man! That clears up everything, great catch! Thanks!
#15 Dark_Stryke Apr 20, 2008 14:38:04	Grey elves are a little hax, because they make just about the best wizards of any race (no level adjustment, possibility of 20 int at level 1). I could see why your DM would be a bit leery about letting you use it. Still, I wouldn't ban it from any of my games. Have fun!
#16 drmorganes Apr 21, 2008 15:03:20	A touch, perhaps, but the -2 CON and -2 STR mean he's going to be exceedingly fragile (as all elven wizards), and have a hard time carrying much more than his staff and spellbook. Minimal obstacles for a wizard, sure, but they'll be a royal pain until Level 5 or so. All in all, however, Grey Elves are a lot more balanced than Whisper Gnomes...
#17 shadowhowler Apr 21, 2008 23:25:03	All in all, however, Grey Elves are a lot more balanced than Whisper Gnomes... I'm going to file this one under 'Duh!' ;)
#18 Dark_Stryke Apr 22, 2008 15:15:04	All in all, however, Grey Elves are a lot more balanced than Whisper Gnomes... Ugh, true that. I remember a campaign where I played a halfling rogue. He was a fun character, not heavily optimized but well built. ...Then about 4 sesssions in, another one of our friends joined. He plays with other groups sometimes that optimize more heavily than us. So, not knowing what any of the other characters were, he made a whisper gnome rogue, using the same point buy, wealth, etc, as the rest of us. I remember him completely outpacing my character at EVERYTHING, so I took a look at his sheet. convo went like this: Me looking at sheet: So, you do everything I do, but way better? Him picking up my sheet and looking at it: Uhh, well... hmm. Yeah, I guess I do. Me: So, do I make a new character or do you?
#19 shadowhowler Apr 22, 2008 20:47:40	Me looking at sheet: So, you do everything I do, but way better? Him picking up my sheet and looking at it: Uhh, well... hmm. Yeah, I guess I do. Me: So, do I make a new character or do you? Whispergnomes were designed to be a Sneak-Thiefs wet dream. When it comes to Skulking about and sneak attack, they are the king. However... they have a Cha hit, so they do not make the best SOCIAL Rogues. Rogues have some usful social skills... and UMD is a Cha skill. For all quiet, sneaking, kill it and pick it's pockets type Rogues tho... whispergnome stands triumphant.
#20 yamishinobi Apr 29, 2008 19:10:02	i've homebrewed the sneaky finesse anime fan rogues wet dream, (the nekogami) though it was not as powerful as a whisper gnome, -4 str -2 con +2 dex +2 int, small size, darkvision, weapon finesse and elegant strike as one compound bonus feat and a half. (dex to atk and damage, with what, weapons that deal a d4 or d3) bonuses on listen spot and move silently. inability to weild 2hand weapons, wear heavy armor, or carry a heavy load. i could post the stats nekogami NEKOGAMI RACIAL TRAITS: • +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -4 Strength, -2 Constitution: Nekogami are smart and agile but physically weak and frail. • Fey: Nekogami are Fey that resemble humans, almost always resembling female human children aged 7-16 (though most appear 12 or 13, a few may appear 7-12 and others rarely 14 or 15) all nekogami are female • Small: As Small creatures, nekogami recieve a +1 to armor class, a +1 to attack rolls, +4 on hide checks, -4 on grapple checks, carrying capacity is 3/4 that of a medium character • Nekogami base land speed is 30 feet. • Darkvision out to 60 feet, a nekogami can see in the dark out to 60 feet • Nekogami are ageless, they do not die of old age and are not affected by ageing effects. They do not have a middle age, old age or venerable age, but adulthood for a Nekogami is 10 years • Nekogami receive weapon finesse as a bonus feat, even if they do not meet the prerequisites. on listen, and spot checks, and a +4 racial bonus on move silently checks. • Nekogami tend to stray away from law like most fey, they prefer to excersise their curiosity, most are chaotic good, chaotic neutral or neutral evil • Automatic Language: Common, Sylvan, Feline. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). See the Speak Language skill. • Favored Class: Rogue. A multiclass nekogami ’s rogue class does not count when determining whether she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.
#21 robbypants May 01, 2008 8:33:06	i've homebrewed the sneaky finesse anime fan rogues wet dream, (the nekogami) though it was not as powerful as a whisper gnome, -4 str -2 con +2 dex +2 int, small size, darkvision, weapon finesse and elegant strike as one compound bonus feat and a half. (dex to atk and damage, with what, weapons that deal a d4 or d3) bonuses on listen spot and move silently. inability to weild 2hand weapons, wear heavy armor, or carry a heavy load. i could post the stats nekogami NEKOGAMI RACIAL TRAITS: • +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -4 Strength, -2 Constitution: Nekogami are smart and agile but physically weak and frail. • Fey: Nekogami are Fey that resemble humans, almost always resembling female human children aged 7-16 (though most appear 12 or 13, a few may appear 7-12 and others rarely 14 or 15) all nekogami are female • Small: As Small creatures, nekogami recieve a +1 to armor class, a +1 to attack rolls, +4 on hide checks, -4 on grapple checks, carrying capacity is 3/4 that of a medium character • Nekogami base land speed is 30 feet. • Darkvision out to 60 feet, a nekogami can see in the dark out to 60 feet • Nekogami are ageless, they do not die of old age and are not affected by ageing effects. They do not have a middle age, old age or venerable age, but adulthood for a Nekogami is 10 years • Nekogami receive weapon finesse as a bonus feat, even if they do not meet the prerequisites. this applies to damage as well as attacks, as if they had the precicise blow class feature, this does not stack wih the feature itself, it does not stack with strength bonus, it overlaps. • +2 racial bonus on listen, and spot checks, and a +4 racial bonus on move silently checks. • Nekogami tend to stray away from law like most fey, they prefer to excersise their curiosity, most are chaotic good, chaotic neutral or neutral evil • Automatic Language: Common, Sylvan, Feline. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). See the Speak Language skill. • Favored Class: Rogue. A multiclass nekogami ’s rogue class does not count when determining whether she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing. Subraces CATBLESSED RACIAL TRAITS: these are in addition to nekogami racial traits except where noted • +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma, -4 Strength, -2 Constitution: Catblessed are Social and agile but physically weak and frail, they are a relative of the nekogami. This replaces nekogami racial modifiers • +2 racial bonus on Bluff, and Gather information checks, no bonus on listen and spot checks KITTENBORN RACIAL TRAITS: These are in addition to nekogami traits except where noted +2 dexterity -4 strength +2 wisdom -2 constitution, these replace nekogami racial modifiers • +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy, and gather information checks, no bonus on listen and spot checks
#22 yamishinobi May 01, 2008 16:38:58	Well, the problem with that race is that you gave it very powerful bonuses that completely negate the penalties. Getting Weapon Finesse for free is nice (esepcially when you have +2 Dex, -4 Str). Getting to add your Dex to damage is even better (in that there is next to no other way to do it), and it completely negates the Str penalty (aside from encumberance and grapples). Adding in a restriction prohibiting the use of two-handed weapons and heavy armor is meaningless at this point. With the above mentioned bonuses, no one is going to use either anyway. The Str penalty and Dex bonus give you a net +3 difference when using a light weapon. They also necesitate the use of light armor. The only way to begin to balance a race like this is with a level adjustment. the dex to damage is now a racial feat. and feats are precious. not everybodies going to take the feat for the dex to damage. though it is an optimal choice. whats the most damage they are going to deal at level 1 (assuming 28 point buy.) 1d4+3 (not much. they do not deserve l.a. for a mere racial feat. i also made that feat an option for other races with higher prerequisites.) trust me that is nothing compared to the, whisper gnomes, strongheart halflings, anthropormorphic bats and dragonwrought kobolds who are much more broken. this gives them a partial competition to those 4 races. the hit to con is pretty bad. they are not the best rogues. they have to waste a precious feat to be uber rogues. a feat. a feat that a 1st level character cannot afford. they are good rogues, horrible everything else. that's what balances them.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

bortus

Apr 18, 2008 20:37:39

I know that the Gray Elf incurs a -2 Str +2 Dex -2 Con +2 Int and that it's in the monster manual pg.104. I own the MM but what I am wondering since these Gray Elf ability adjustments aren't in my book is there a 3.5 version that has these?

jokey665

Apr 18, 2008 21:12:11

You sure you have the 3.5 MM? It's on page 104.

zeratulcraft

Apr 18, 2008 21:36:45

The adjustments actually say "-2 str +2 int, in addition to normal elf adjustments" or the like, which could be where the issue lays.

MrCustomer

Apr 18, 2008 21:58:18

in 3.5 they clarify better, but it isn't directly listed in 3.0, but you can infer it by comparing the stats of grey elfs to those of the standard elf.

Elfs in 3.0 are listed on page 85 as
Str 10, dex 13, con 8, int 11, wis 11, cha 11

that is your typical elf with +2 Dex, -2 Con as listed in the players handbook

Grey elfs are listed in 3.0, page 87 as:
str 8, dex 13, con 8, int 13, wis 10, cha 11

so as you can see, the grey elf has an additional -2 Str and +2 int adjustment from your typical Elf.

You could use this to infer the bonus's to the other Elf races listed in 3.0 if you don't have 3.5 (I have both) as well as the sub races of Dwarfs and gnomes.

bortus

Apr 19, 2008 0:17:36

MrCustomer thank you for your response and this answers my question for the most part. So there is a 3.5 MM and mine must be 3.0 and 3.5 IS where it states the ability mods for the Gray Elf on page 104 correct? I need a cut and dry answer or our DM won't allow it. Thank you all and I look forward to your responses.

runestar

Apr 19, 2008 0:23:39

If you have the 3.0 DMG, page 57 lists the gray elf's full racial stat mods. There shouldn't be any change in 3.5.

Merestil_Haye

Apr 19, 2008 7:49:25

MrCustomer thank you for your response and this answers my question for the most part. So there is a 3.5 MM and mine must be 3.0 and 3.5 IS where it states the ability mods for the Gray Elf on page 104 correct? I need a cut and dry answer or our DM won't allow it. Thank you all and I look forward to your responses.

The 3.5 MM lists Grey Elves on page 104.

it is explicit that the ability moddifiers for Int and Str are in addition to the racial adjustments for high elves.

Nathreet

Apr 19, 2008 8:10:37

Ya, the grey elf has the stat bonuses you listed. He also has the other elf stuff. See www.d20srd.org => monsters => elf => grey elf

MrCustomer

Apr 19, 2008 11:14:02

MrCustomer thank you for your response and this answers my question for the most part. So there is a 3.5 MM and mine must be 3.0 and 3.5 IS where it states the ability mods for the Gray Elf on page 104 correct? I need a cut and dry answer or our DM won't allow it. Thank you all and I look forward to your responses.

Yes it states it directly in MM 3.5, as you said, otherwise if you are running off of the Moster Manual that only says Core Rulebook III then compare the numbers as I suggested to get the modifiers.

3.5 adds in the racial bonus's to monsters that are generally considered as being playable as PCs for your convenience.

The DM's Guide, version 3.0, pg 23 or page 172 of the DM's guide 3.5 even lists the rules for how to determine the racial bonuses of creatures listed in the Monster manual under the heading Ability Scores for Monsters , which supports the method I described for determining the bonuses. Show the DM the rules in the DM's guide, they can be used for determining the racial bonuses of any creature in the MM, so you don't need to find the MM version 3.5 to confirm the racial bonuses.

#10

drmorganes

Apr 19, 2008 17:53:52

Ya, the grey elf has the stat bonuses you listed. He also has the other elf stuff. See www.d20srd.org => monsters => elf => grey elf

Direct Link

The SRD is official material, by the way. d20SRD.org is a popular hyperlinked and searchable online version of the rich text version available directly from Wizards of the Coast.

If that's not good enough for your DM... /shrug

#11

bortus

Apr 20, 2008 0:04:15

You've all been great and very helpful and I thank you. Ya, my DM for some reason (probably because he's r-e-a-l-l-y old school) doesn't like the idea of using "alternative" if you will races for PC's. He always sets the limit to PH only races which as you all know pretty much limits an otherwise unlimited game. Now I can see exactly what he means in some cases such as the guy I heard about playing a Minotaur Cleric, which is probably atributed to me being from the "old school" days myself, but my idea for playing a Tiefling Rogue was shot down immediately. I figured if we ever get around to playing a Planescape setting there will be no denying me then lol......maybe a Bariur Ranger? Anyway, I really want the Gray Elf and I hope I can get away with it. I personally don't see why not myself. It's really no stretch to me but it might be to him...dunno?
p.s Don't tell him I chose the Telling Blow feat for my Rogue from the PH2 or he'll have a coniption! lol

#12

MrCustomer

Apr 20, 2008 0:29:14

I don't play old school but your DM should consider letting in some of the playable races from the MM and other source books. There is only ever a problem when people play races that arae far out to left field.

As a general rule for my game I allow all humanoid races with a level adjustment of no more then +1 into the game (they have to pay the LA). Yea I would have a problem with a minator, but not with normal humanoids.

#13

ivellius

Apr 20, 2008 0:42:44

I don't think it's been mentioned, but the 3.5 DMG has the ability adjustments on page 127.

#14

bortus

Apr 20, 2008 3:12:11

I don't think it's been mentioned, but the 3.5 DMG has the ability adjustments on page 127.

WOW!!! Ivellius you da man! That clears up everything, great catch! Thanks!

#15

Dark_Stryke

Apr 20, 2008 14:38:04

Grey elves are a little hax, because they make just about the best wizards of any race (no level adjustment, possibility of 20 int at level 1). I could see why your DM would be a bit leery about letting you use it.

Still, I wouldn't ban it from any of my games. Have fun!

#16

drmorganes

Apr 21, 2008 15:03:20

A touch, perhaps, but the -2 CON and -2 STR mean he's going to be exceedingly fragile (as all elven wizards), and have a hard time carrying much more than his staff and spellbook. Minimal obstacles for a wizard, sure, but they'll be a royal pain until Level 5 or so.

All in all, however, Grey Elves are a lot more balanced than Whisper Gnomes...

#17

shadowhowler

Apr 21, 2008 23:25:03

All in all, however, Grey Elves are a lot more balanced than Whisper Gnomes...

I'm going to file this one under 'Duh!'

;)

#18

Dark_Stryke

Apr 22, 2008 15:15:04

All in all, however, Grey Elves are a lot more balanced than Whisper Gnomes...

Ugh, true that. I remember a campaign where I played a halfling rogue. He was a fun character, not heavily optimized but well built.

...Then about 4 sesssions in, another one of our friends joined. He plays with other groups sometimes that optimize more heavily than us. So, not knowing what any of the other characters were, he made a whisper gnome rogue, using the same point buy, wealth, etc, as the rest of us.

I remember him completely outpacing my character at EVERYTHING, so I took a look at his sheet. convo went like this:

Me *looking at sheet*: So, you do everything I do, but way better?
Him *picking up my sheet and looking at it*: Uhh, well... hmm. Yeah, I guess I do.
Me: So, do I make a new character or do you?

#19

shadowhowler

Apr 22, 2008 20:47:40

Me *looking at sheet*: So, you do everything I do, but way better?
Him *picking up my sheet and looking at it*: Uhh, well... hmm. Yeah, I guess I do.
Me: So, do I make a new character or do you?

Whispergnomes were designed to be a Sneak-Thiefs wet dream. When it comes to Skulking about and sneak attack, they are the king.

However... they have a Cha hit, so they do not make the best SOCIAL Rogues. Rogues have some usful social skills... and UMD is a Cha skill.

For all quiet, sneaking, kill it and pick it's pockets type Rogues tho... whispergnome stands triumphant.

#20

yamishinobi

Apr 29, 2008 19:10:02

i've homebrewed the sneaky finesse anime fan rogues wet dream, (the nekogami) though it was not as powerful as a whisper gnome, -4 str -2 con +2 dex +2 int, small size, darkvision, weapon finesse and elegant strike as one compound bonus feat and a half. (dex to atk and damage, with what, weapons that deal a d4 or d3) bonuses on listen spot and move silently. inability to weild 2hand weapons, wear heavy armor, or carry a heavy load.

i could post the stats

nekogami

NEKOGAMI RACIAL TRAITS:
• +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -4 Strength, -2 Constitution: Nekogami are smart and agile but physically weak and frail.
• Fey: Nekogami are Fey that resemble humans, almost always resembling female human children aged 7-16 (though most appear 12 or 13, a few may appear 7-12 and others rarely 14 or 15) all nekogami are female
• Small: As Small creatures, nekogami recieve a +1 to armor class, a +1 to attack rolls, +4 on hide checks, -4 on grapple checks, carrying capacity is 3/4 that of a medium character
• Nekogami base land speed is 30 feet.
• Darkvision out to 60 feet, a nekogami can see in the dark out to 60 feet
• Nekogami are ageless, they do not die of old age and are not affected by ageing effects. They do not have a middle age, old age or venerable age, but adulthood for a Nekogami is 10 years
• Nekogami receive weapon finesse as a bonus feat, even if they do not meet the prerequisites.
on listen, and spot checks, and a +4 racial bonus on move silently checks.
• Nekogami tend to stray away from law like most fey, they prefer to excersise their curiosity, most are chaotic good, chaotic neutral or neutral evil
• Automatic Language: Common, Sylvan, Feline. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). See the Speak Language skill.
• Favored Class: Rogue. A multiclass nekogami ’s rogue class does not count when determining whether she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.

#21

robbypants

May 01, 2008 8:33:06

i've homebrewed the sneaky finesse anime fan rogues wet dream, (the nekogami) though it was not as powerful as a whisper gnome, -4 str -2 con +2 dex +2 int, small size, darkvision, weapon finesse and elegant strike as one compound bonus feat and a half. (dex to atk and damage, with what, weapons that deal a d4 or d3) bonuses on listen spot and move silently. inability to weild 2hand weapons, wear heavy armor, or carry a heavy load.

i could post the stats
nekogami

NEKOGAMI RACIAL TRAITS:
• +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -4 Strength, -2 Constitution: Nekogami are smart and agile but physically weak and frail.
• Fey: Nekogami are Fey that resemble humans, almost always resembling female human children aged 7-16 (though most appear 12 or 13, a few may appear 7-12 and others rarely 14 or 15) all nekogami are female
• Small: As Small creatures, nekogami recieve a +1 to armor class, a +1 to attack rolls, +4 on hide checks, -4 on grapple checks, carrying capacity is 3/4 that of a medium character
• Nekogami base land speed is 30 feet.
• Darkvision out to 60 feet, a nekogami can see in the dark out to 60 feet
• Nekogami are ageless, they do not die of old age and are not affected by ageing effects. They do not have a middle age, old age or venerable age, but adulthood for a Nekogami is 10 years
• Nekogami receive weapon finesse as a bonus feat, even if they do not meet the prerequisites. this applies to damage as well as attacks, as if they had the precicise blow class feature, this does not stack wih the feature itself, it does not stack with strength bonus, it overlaps.
• +2 racial bonus on listen, and spot checks, and a +4 racial bonus on move silently checks.
• Nekogami tend to stray away from law like most fey, they prefer to excersise their curiosity, most are chaotic good, chaotic neutral or neutral evil
• Automatic Language: Common, Sylvan, Feline. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). See the Speak Language skill.
• Favored Class: Rogue. A multiclass nekogami ’s rogue class does not count when determining whether she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.

Subraces
CATBLESSED RACIAL TRAITS:
these are in addition to nekogami racial traits except where noted
• +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma, -4 Strength, -2 Constitution: Catblessed are Social and agile but physically weak and frail, they are a relative of the nekogami. This replaces nekogami racial modifiers
• +2 racial bonus on Bluff, and Gather information checks, no bonus on listen and spot checks

KITTENBORN RACIAL TRAITS:
These are in addition to nekogami traits except where noted
+2 dexterity -4 strength +2 wisdom -2 constitution, these replace nekogami racial modifiers
• +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy, and gather information checks, no bonus on listen and spot checks

#22

yamishinobi

May 01, 2008 16:38:58

Well, the problem with that race is that you gave it very powerful bonuses that completely negate the penalties. Getting Weapon Finesse for free is nice (esepcially when you have +2 Dex, -4 Str). Getting to add your Dex to damage is even better (in that there is next to no other way to do it), and it completely negates the Str penalty (aside from encumberance and grapples). Adding in a restriction prohibiting the use of two-handed weapons and heavy armor is meaningless at this point. With the above mentioned bonuses, no one is going to use either anyway. The Str penalty and Dex bonus give you a net +3 difference when using a light weapon. They also necesitate the use of light armor.

The only way to begin to balance a race like this is with a level adjustment.

the dex to damage is now a racial feat. and feats are precious. not everybodies going to take the feat for the dex to damage. though it is an optimal choice. whats the most damage they are going to deal at level 1 (assuming 28 point buy.) 1d4+3 (not much. they do not deserve l.a. for a mere racial feat. i also made that feat an option for other races with higher prerequisites.) trust me that is nothing compared to the, whisper gnomes, strongheart halflings, anthropormorphic bats and dragonwrought kobolds who are much more broken. this gives them a partial competition to those 4 races. the hit to con is pretty bad. they are not the best rogues. they have to waste a precious feat to be uber rogues. a feat. a feat that a 1st level character cannot afford. they are good rogues, horrible everything else. that's what balances them.