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| #1sareldMay 15, 2008 5:44:16 | I have very little expirience with level 10+ play, so this is all new to me; I am fighting a huge green dragon this weekend! Obivously I am in for one hell of a fight, so I will need my battle strategy critiqued before I proceed. The dragon: We know that the dragon is a huge green dragon, so I assume that it it adult, though it can easily be mature adult as our DM likes to make us fear for our lives, and once in a while present us with encounters that we cannot win and have to flee from. The party: I am playing the wizard in a party of four, but more on my build later on. My party members are: Half-ogre mystic 7/Knight of Neraca 4... this guy has some minor healing spells, but usually does nothing more than boosing himself and go tanking. He wields a bastard sword +1, a mythril shield and a magical full plate. Good AC, decent HP, low damage output. Human Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 4/Dervish 6... Wears a mythril shirt, and dual wields schimitars like there was no tomorrow. low AC, decent HP, good damage output. Human ranger 6/rogue3/blackguard 3... Dual wields shortswords, and primarily relies on sneak attacks. Somewhat ineffective against most things we encounter, but survives through cowardice. low AC, decent HP, low damage output. My build: 1 Conjurer 1 feat (SpF: Conjuration), bonus feat (Scribe Scroll) 2 Conjurer 2 3 Conjurer 3 feat (Agument Summoning) 4 Master Specialist 1 bonus feat (SkF: Spellcraft) 5 Master Specialist 2 Test of High Sorcery, average score 4: bonus feat (Empower Spell), +1 int 6 Master Specialist 3 feat (Improved Initiative), bonus feat (GSpF: Conjuration) 7 Master Specialist 4 8 Master Specialist 5 9 Master Specialist 6 feat (Split Ray) 10 Master Specialist 7 11 Master Specialist 8 12 Master Specialist 9 feat (SpF: Transmutation) I have virtually unlimited time before the battle, and enough money to burn to get any spell I want as long as it is not enchantments, evocations or shivering touch. My planned spell loadout for the battle is (including bonus spells for int 28): 1st: 6x True Casting 1x Mage Armor 1x Shield 2nd: 1x Alter Self 1x Rope Trick 2x Summon Monster 2 3x Glitterdust 3rd: 2x Haste 2x Dispel Magic 3x Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement 4th: 1x Solid Fog 1x Polymorph 4x Enervation 5th: 1x Teleport 4x Contignient Energy Resistance 1x Shadow Evocation 6th: 2x Disentegrate 1x Summon Monster VI The master plan: I´ll cast the following spells before the battle: Mage armor, contignient energy resistance and ploymorph (into something that helps me defend myself, suggestions?). I´ll cast shield if I see the dragon before it is in range of my serious spells. My comrades will each recieve a contignient energy resistance pre-battle. Once the dragon gets close, I´ll cast solid fog to stall it, and then summon a giant fiendish constrictor snake with summon monster VI and have it force the dragon to the ground. Once the dragon hits the deck the fighters will be all over it, and I´ll haste them in order to speed up their attack speed. Once that is done, I´ll start pelting the lizard with enervation rays enhanced with true casting, and once Im out of them I´ll start disentegrating it, likewise enhanced with true casting. If it still stands afterwards, I´ll be casting empowered ray of enfeeblements on it, hoping that the fighters will kill it off for me. If all else fails, I´ll teleport to safety with whoever is within arms reach atht e time. Now, where is my plan most likely to fail or backfire? And how can I improve it? All suggestions would be greatly appreciated. |
| #2runestarMay 15, 2008 8:10:41 | The first problem I can see is successfully making that will save vs its frightful presence. With a dc of 23 at least, it seems like none of your fighters can expect to make it reliably. Try to access heroes' feast somehow, maybe via a scroll or something. I don't see the point of contingent energy resistance. You already know you are facing a green dragon, just prepare 4 castings of protection from energy or resist energy and cast on all your PCs. The decently long duration means that it should last until you encounter said dragon. Nor am I sure how useful AC is for you at this juncture (since the dragon's to-hit seems higher than whatever value you can crank it to, though in the least, it might prevent the dragon from using power attack indiscriminately). Personally, I would cast phantom speed and rely on its high fly speed (240ft/round) to keep you out of harm's way. Or go with mirror image+displacement (it should be more reliable that way). Because ray of enfeeblement inflicts a str penalty, multiple castings will not stack (you merely use the best of the lot), so there is little point to memorizing more than 1 unless you think you may have problems overcoming its sr. Likewise, instead of a boa constrictor, you may want to try a fiendish centipede instead. Though it has a slightly smaller str score, it is gargantuan, which gives it a better chance of successfully grappling the dragon. Definitely keep 1-2 castings of dispel magic at hand in case the dragon has buffs up (it does have sorc casting after all). Glitterdust can be very useful, if you think it can get through (the dragon has excellent saves). Maybe pelt it with a few enervations to lower its saves first before trying one, but it is good if you succeed (blind = 50% miss chance). And try to get assay resistance if you can. This should ensure that you have no problems trying to overcome the dragon's sr. Doubt disintegrate will be useful, the dragon's fort saves will simply be too good. So a typical scenario might go something like... Start of the day: eat heroes' feast, get a phantom steed. Prior to entering dragon's lair - energy resistance or resist energy on everyone. If you can time it right just prior to battle, haste the party, shield and cast assay resistance. 1) Summon a centipede in the beginning of combat. 2) Ray of enfeeblement the dragon (pray it gets through), order the summon to grapple the dragon. 3) Glitterdust? Enervation? Dispel any buffs it appears to have on it? Hopefully, the fighters are doing decent damage to it. 4+) Depends...I guess...:P |
| #3iserithMay 15, 2008 8:16:07 | Do you know the terrain? Because given its swim speed, as a DM, I would most definitely force you into some heavy bog (x4 movement plus other nasty penalties). Any potential land areas would be dotted with quicksand. A thin mist in the air might even obscure and hinder ranged attacks at a certain range. Further, I'd make its lair a network of tunnels underneath the water with entrances and exits all around so it can use hit and run tactics to attack from all angles to wear you down. I'd also fill the area with a number of minions loyal to the dragon which have climb and/or swim speeds. Where you fight a dragon is almost as important as how. You may find yourself as the only one who can navigate the terrain, in which case, you're the primary target. Grab yourself a dimension door spell accordingly. That said, slow is a good choice and if you expect it will be flying, try wingbind. If you are attempting to cast the snake onto the dragon in midair, check out the summoning spell details - I don't have my books in front of me, but I'm fairly certain you have to bring summoned creatures in "on the ground." You want to slow its movement and reduce its number of attacks while protecting party members from its acid breath. Blinding it will not be terribly effective. Short duration debuffs will also not work well unless you can hold it in place as I would just have him go underwater and chill out until the spell wears off. In short, you need to pin it down quick, reduce its attacks, protect yourself from acid, and keep it there until the rest of the party can throw some damage on it. |
| #4sareldMay 15, 2008 8:28:28 | Great posts I´ll post a better reply once I get home, I just needed to add a little detail as to where the fight takes place.We killed the dragons wyrmlings for sport back at level 3, and it has been chasing us ever since. Chances are that it will attack us where we are as soon as we make our prescense know to it, so we are considering the city we are currently residing in, in which case we will be fighting it from the roof tops. Collateral damage will be a factor to the knight, but I as a mean SOB dosent really care. I just want the lizard dead. |
| #5logicninjaMay 15, 2008 9:10:57 | Any plan that involves the party melee characters engaging the dragon *in* melee is a bad plan. The Dervish can actually hit and run relatively safely, as long as he has Freedom of Movement (to protect form grapples), since he can full attack and then move. But no one should let the thing full attack them. The quick way to kill a dragon, for you, is Empowered Ray of Clumsiness + Ray of Exhaustion. That drops its DEX to 0, which maks it unable to move. |
| #6sinfire_titanMay 15, 2008 12:15:45 | Empowered Ray of Clumsiness? Try Shivering Touch (Frostburn) and Spell-storing Arrows. If that doesn't shut it down, nothing can and nothing will. Of course, that's the easiest way out. The hard way is to actually give it a fighting chance. |
| #7timlagorMay 15, 2008 12:50:33 | Where's the Mass Fly? (he said he can't get Shivering Touch -and quite right too) |
| #8logicninjaMay 15, 2008 13:41:54 | Empowered Ray of Clumsiness? Try Shivering Touch (Frostburn) and Spell-storing Arrows. If that doesn't shut it down, nothing can and nothing will. Much like Polymorph, Shivering Touch doesn't exist. |
| #9sareldMay 15, 2008 14:24:24 | Polymorph does indeed exist, but I suck at abusing it. Any nasty ideas are welcome. Usually I just use it to get fly or burrow, and use troglodyte form through alter self for natural AC. Contignient energy resistance is what I have at the moment, and I dont think that the situation calls for me to get an entirely new spell to cover for it, unless you can point out something else I need those 5th level slots for. I will most definately look into those spells you suggested, and post an updated spell list asap ![]() |
| #10nightwyrmMay 15, 2008 14:38:13 | If you have the spell, replace some of those empowered enfeeblement rays with unluck. |
| #11logicninjaMay 15, 2008 14:42:52 | Polymorph does indeed exist, but I suck at abusing it. Any nasty ideas are welcome. Usually I just use it to get fly or burrow, and use troglodyte form through alter self for natural AC. I don't recommend abusing Polymorph. The obvious use is to to turn the Fighter from zero to hero, preferably using humanoid-shaped forms. The Treant may well be close enough, even for him to hold a weapon. Shivering Touch is in Frostburn. It involves a touch attack, however, and I don't think you want to be that close. It's a no-save touch spell that does 3d6 Dex damage. Contignient energy resistance is what I have at the moment, and I dont think that the situation calls for me to get an entirely new spell to cover for it, unless you can point out something else I need those 5th level slots for. Why Contingent Energy Resistance, much less so many? Have the cleric prepare Mass Resist and use it when you think you'll need it. 5th-level slots get you: -Overland Flight. Fly all day. This doesn't help that much against the green dragon, but it keeps you safe from like 50% of everything else. -Baleful Polymorph. That lets you swap the Disintegrates out for, say, Mass Suggestion (higher DC than Confusion and such, and a Suggestion can include things like "do whatever I tell you") or Split Ray Enervation. (Split Ray Enervation followed by a Will-save-or-lose should take the thing out.) -Split Ray of Exhaustion. Guaranteed Exhaustion if both hit. On top of your Emp. Ray of Enfeeblement, this should even let you guys engage the dragon in melee (although Ray of Clumsiness + Ray of Exhaustion should just get its dex to 0). Incidentally, prepare Assay Resistance to get past its SR easily. Oh, and prepare Heart of Water so you can trigger Freedom of Movement when it grapples you. |
| #12pappabear5May 20, 2008 8:14:48 | Did you fight the dragon? How did you fare? If not, I'd like to offer alternative spell selections and a different strategy. Since you said that you can dictate the location and time of the fight. I suggest you find a huge cave. Find a nice corner of this cave and if this area is higher than 10 feet, cast a horizontal wall of stone about 10 feet above the floor of the cave. This wall will be 10 feet across and 60 feet deep (12 - 5 foot squares). Cast another wall of stone perpendicular to the first at the opposite side of the natural cavern wall. You now have a 10 foot by 10 foot opening by 60 feet deep "building" in the huge cave. Note that the walls do not support each other; the cave walls support them! Conjure two additional horizontal and vertical walls a couple of inches outside the others. There are now 9 inches of stone walls (top and side). Cast Continual Flame on 8 poles and stand them along the two walls at 10, 15, 20, and 25 feet into the "building." (Hopefully, this will make the dragon have trouble adjusting its vision from, inside to outside of the "building.")Toss a few hundred gold and silver pieces around the room (make certain to polish the coins first) and, perhaps, a few large semi-precious gems and, if possible, any items from the wormlings known to the huge green dragon.. If the ceiling is too high, place another wall of stone strategically above the "roof" of the "building" to keep the dragon focused on the building and not on tring to destroy it. The day of the big battle, let the dragon know where you are. Spells: zero level: 2 x message phb p.253 1st level: 2 x true casting 1 x mage armor 1 x shield 4 x lesser orb of cold (ranged touch 5d8 no save; no SR) 2nd level: 2 x dimension hop phbII p.110 (teleport 60 feet) 1 x alter self 1 x rope trick 1 x glitterdust 2 x cat's grace 3rd level: 3 x dispel magic 2 x tongues 2 x haste 4th level: 1 x resist energy, mass acid 2 x dimension door 3 x orb of fire (ranged touch 12d6 no save; no SR) 5th level: 2 x wall of force 2 x transmute rock to mud 2 x wall of stone 6th level: 2 x summon monster VI 1 x disintegrate Immediately prior to combat: mage armor, resist energy, mass (120 minutes), tongues (120 minutes), transmute rock to mud (days) in front of "building" 1 - 10 foot cube inside "building," 11 more in front and outside (so anything standing in front or along side will sink), cat's grace on self and ranger/rogue/blackguard. Immediately upon visual contact with dragon: message (120 minutes) - point to dragon and own allies, message "Over here ughly. We are ready to end this. Are you?" Whisper in his ear anything that will encourage him to become angry and attack. As soon as dragon comes within 50 feet. Cast wall of force vertically in front and above of the "roof" of the "building" to prevent the dragon from gaining access above and to "building." 4 - 10 foot squares tall by 3 - 10 foot squares left to right. (duration 12 rounds) Cast dimension hop on self. Hop 60 feet to outside of wall of stone side of "building." Whisper "Oops! The dragon will sink in the mud and it will be easier for it to enter our lair." Summon monster VI a large earth elemental. Cast dispel magic on mud as soon as allies whisper (it takes a foot of stone to stop message; you have 9 inches), "the dragon is in mud!" Dragon should be 10,feet deep in the mud turned rock. Send LEE to fight the dragon. When dragon uses its breath again, dismiss the wall of force. Have LEE and allies fight the dragon. Gain position to attack dragon with orb of fire spells. Good luck! |
| #13sareldMay 21, 2008 13:19:42 | My bluff skill isnt worth a damn, so Im afraid that your strategy wouldnt do me much good. Also I suppose that an Int 16 dragon could, despite its temper, see through the plan and take countermeassures. The centipede grapple trap idea worked like a charm, and once it hit the ground the fighters charged it from all sides, and I placed a solid fog over it to prevent it from getting airborne again, which it didnt. The fighters chose to trade blows with it, disregarding my (Actually LogicNinjas) advice about not letting it full attack them. Two of them died, but good riddance I say, thats what fighters do. By the way, I got an empowered ray of enfeeblement, three enervation rays and a disentegration ray through on it, resulting in 8 strength damage, 8 negative levels and 70 hit points of damage through on the bastard before it finally succumbed (to HP damage), and I also managed to boost the fighters with haste, resist elements acid and enlarge person before the battle, so I personally think I did my duty as a wizard and dominated the battle. I would have used ray of clumsiness + ray of exhaustion, but the DM ruled that I could not find PHB spells in the local mage academy. Too bad, but we won anyway. Thanks for your advice ![]() EDIT: Oh, and we DID choose to take the fight in the city, and are now wanted by the crown for the collateral damage we inflicted. |
| #14logicninjaMay 21, 2008 14:14:02 | So the fighters started trading full attacks with a dragon and died? Gosh. It's almost like I saw that coming. |
| #15sinfire_titanMay 21, 2008 19:59:28 | My bluff skill isnt worth a damn, so Im afraid that your strategy wouldnt do me much good. Also I suppose that an Int 16 dragon could, despite its temper, see through the plan and take countermeassures. Wow. And you only lost the Fighter? I'd call that a good day and a cheaply earned footstool (costing about as much as Animate Dead). |
| #16timlagorMay 22, 2008 12:42:08 | Can't you blame the collateral damage on those idiot fighters? (better hire a bard to go and represent you in court;) ) |
| #17sinfire_titanMay 22, 2008 13:56:19 | Can't you blame the collateral damage on those idiot fighters? (better hire a bard to go and represent you in court;) ) LoL. You're suggesting he presses charges against his new footstool and mindless minion. |
| #18runestarMay 22, 2008 23:31:40 | Couldn't you direct the authorities to the green dragon's hoard and state how the gold inside should more than suffice for rebuilding the city?:P |