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group tactics issue

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
wrekkless
Jan 06, 2010 12:09:16 (This post is on behalf of the Bard in the "Ooh shiney" post by myself in the "What is a DM to do?" section)

We were playing our campaign, and we had a newcomer to the group. He was new to playing and had 7 hp left, everyone else in the group was telling him to use second wind. I suggested that he move closer to me so that he wouldn't be flanked, and I could heal him with one of my spells which does more than his second wind. The party just looked at me and then continued to tell him to use his second wind. They weren't listening to what I was trying to get them to do, and he ended up going into death saves again, at which point they wanted me to heal him.

How can I get my party to realize that I have good ideas as far as combat goes without them starting to die?
#2
commander_cain
Jan 06, 2010 17:03:42 erdana">
Two things come to mind and one is more extreme than than others so I'll start out easy. The first thing that usually happens in this kind of situation is a rush to make the next move. If the party has spoken their piece then take a stand and say "Hey, calm down for a second, I have a suggestion too." The idea is for the player to hear out all people involved, after which you say "Those are our suggestions but he's/she's your character, play him/her how you think is best". Then even if he does something you would not have done, as long as he is playing his character its ok, just as long as he knows better (which is the job of experienced players to inform him of his potential options).

The second thing you can do, and I don't normally recommend this, is just to stop supporting them as a healer until they at least let you get a word in. However, this can easily cause a lot of friction and bad blood between players and I would only use it as a last resort and only if you really know how these people would react to this. In the end you're best bet is the first thing I mentioned.

#3
BlueOgre
Jan 07, 2010 7:52:17 I think the best way to learn is the hard way. Maybe next time the newcomer respects being flanked more and moves away to safety of the bard.

Anyway since there was many people saying one thing and one person saying another, it is understandable that the newcomer chose the action many people were saying. Maybe after that incident he has more respect on your advice.

I guess you could discuss combat tactics before the combats. They seem to be so eager in combat shouting advices that they will fail to listen. The most important tactic for others to remember is that your healing powers have range limits.
#4
dirtyfrank
Jan 07, 2010 15:03:07 This thread seems to be posted by the bard that is mentioned in that other thread. So me will keep that in mind.

From the other thread it seems that the paladin was unconscious and was healed with a healing check, which expending the paladin's second wind for the encounter. So technically the paladin would not be able to use the second wind again and so such should not have been an option. The other options would have been to use a lay on hands on himself (if they have not been used) or, depending on how soon later the bard's turn was, attack an enemy or take a defensive stance.

The second wind thing I think is one of the easier rules to learn/remember so if nobody at the table caught that error I'd suggest that everyone go and reread the phb (as well as the errata) for it seems that even the experienced players were almost just as clueless about second wind as the new person.

Now the big problem probably isn't group tactics. What the probably seems to be is jut blatant ignoring of a member of the group. Now it is sorta the DM's duty to make sure everyone has a chance to hold the floor. however at times you as a player might need to take the floor yourself. If getting loud doesn't do it then you can do what the women at my table do. give the evil eye followed by some sort of threat. Well it works for them cuz it's just their normal personality and all. If you're not normally like that then it might be taken as being bitchy.
#5
marc_byrne
Jan 08, 2010 2:06:55 I don't know how much help I can offer, but I can offer insight on what may be a similar situation to what you find yourself in.

I DM a game for my friends, and one of my players is my wife. She is new to D&D, and there are two other players in our game that are (and more importantly are considered by her to be) experienced role-players. They aren't loud, per se, but they are not afraid to share their opinions and generally do their best to help the other players. In some situations this causes problems.

First, in combat, they have a tendency to try to run the battle, being that they know more and that the other players assume they know more. In this case, there are occasional situations when a less experienced player gets a bit irritated when she/he feels he cannot do what they want to because its against the 'expert advice'.

Second, in role-playing situations, the lesser experienced players tend to take a backseat because they feel the more experienced players know better what to do. The assumption here is that they don't know enough and will just get in the way, so let the exp guys do the talking.

The general problem is that the less experienced players feel that the more experienced players know what they are doing in all situations. This is totally false. (here is the point that may help you.)

Just because the experienced players have more knowledge of the rules, and been involved in more game sessions throughout their lives, does not mean they have a better understanding of thesocial or tactical situation that currently presents itself. In fact, they may have much worse of an understanding due to preconceived notions from past games. So, you should never feel an idea, thought, questions or plan is less worthy than one from someone who 'has more experience'.

Hopefully I'm making sense. But here is a specific example. The end of my last session had my players talking with a reclusive kobold shaman. The players had just arrived on a mysterious island and this shaman was their chance to ask questions and learn what they could about the situations they may be soon walking into.
My players mostly left the questioning to the two experienced players and they promptly got themselves all twisted up in misconceptions and generally failed to ask any straightforward questions.
Later, while talking to my wife about the game, I ask about this and what she thought of how it whet. She basically said she wanted to ask several simple, straightforward questions but did not, feeling intimidated by the perceived knowledge of the experienced players. Turns out, if she had handled the social encounter, the group would have learned much, where the exp'ed guys didn't even ask simple questions like, what's your name, what do these 'big ones' look like. Where is 'blah blah blah'.

Anyway, hope my ramblings help.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 wrekkless Jan 06, 2010 12:09:16	(This post is on behalf of the Bard in the "Ooh shiney" post by myself in the "What is a DM to do?" section) We were playing our campaign, and we had a newcomer to the group. He was new to playing and had 7 hp left, everyone else in the group was telling him to use second wind. I suggested that he move closer to me so that he wouldn't be flanked, and I could heal him with one of my spells which does more than his second wind. The party just looked at me and then continued to tell him to use his second wind. They weren't listening to what I was trying to get them to do, and he ended up going into death saves again, at which point they wanted me to heal him. How can I get my party to realize that I have good ideas as far as combat goes without them starting to die?
#2 commander_cain Jan 06, 2010 17:03:42	erdana"> Two things come to mind and one is more extreme than than others so I'll start out easy. The first thing that usually happens in this kind of situation is a rush to make the next move. If the party has spoken their piece then take a stand and say "Hey, calm down for a second, I have a suggestion too." The idea is for the player to hear out all people involved, after which you say "Those are our suggestions but he's/she's your character, play him/her how you think is best". Then even if he does something you would not have done, as long as he is playing his character its ok, just as long as he knows better (which is the job of experienced players to inform him of his potential options). The second thing you can do, and I don't normally recommend this, is just to stop supporting them as a healer until they at least let you get a word in. However, this can easily cause a lot of friction and bad blood between players and I would only use it as a last resort and only if you really know how these people would react to this. In the end you're best bet is the first thing I mentioned.
#3 BlueOgre Jan 07, 2010 7:52:17	I think the best way to learn is the hard way. Maybe next time the newcomer respects being flanked more and moves away to safety of the bard. Anyway since there was many people saying one thing and one person saying another, it is understandable that the newcomer chose the action many people were saying. Maybe after that incident he has more respect on your advice. I guess you could discuss combat tactics before the combats. They seem to be so eager in combat shouting advices that they will fail to listen. The most important tactic for others to remember is that your healing powers have range limits.
#4 dirtyfrank Jan 07, 2010 15:03:07	This thread seems to be posted by the bard that is mentioned in that other thread. So me will keep that in mind. From the other thread it seems that the paladin was unconscious and was healed with a healing check, which expending the paladin's second wind for the encounter. So technically the paladin would not be able to use the second wind again and so such should not have been an option. The other options would have been to use a lay on hands on himself (if they have not been used) or, depending on how soon later the bard's turn was, attack an enemy or take a defensive stance. The second wind thing I think is one of the easier rules to learn/remember so if nobody at the table caught that error I'd suggest that everyone go and reread the phb (as well as the errata) for it seems that even the experienced players were almost just as clueless about second wind as the new person. Now the big problem probably isn't group tactics. What the probably seems to be is jut blatant ignoring of a member of the group. Now it is sorta the DM's duty to make sure everyone has a chance to hold the floor. however at times you as a player might need to take the floor yourself. If getting loud doesn't do it then you can do what the women at my table do. give the evil eye followed by some sort of threat. Well it works for them cuz it's just their normal personality and all. If you're not normally like that then it might be taken as being bitchy.
#5 marc_byrne Jan 08, 2010 2:06:55	I don't know how much help I can offer, but I can offer insight on what may be a similar situation to what you find yourself in. I DM a game for my friends, and one of my players is my wife. She is new to D&D, and there are two other players in our game that are (and more importantly are considered by her to be) experienced role-players. They aren't loud, per se, but they are not afraid to share their opinions and generally do their best to help the other players. In some situations this causes problems. First, in combat, they have a tendency to try to run the battle, being that they know more and that the other players assume they know more. In this case, there are occasional situations when a less experienced player gets a bit irritated when she/he feels he cannot do what they want to because its against the 'expert advice'. Second, in role-playing situations, the lesser experienced players tend to take a backseat because they feel the more experienced players know better what to do. The assumption here is that they don't know enough and will just get in the way, so let the exp guys do the talking. The general problem is that the less experienced players feel that the more experienced players know what they are doing in all situations. This is totally false. (here is the point that may help you.) Just because the experienced players have more knowledge of the rules, and been involved in more game sessions throughout their lives, does not mean they have a better understanding of thesocial or tactical situation that currently presents itself. In fact, they may have much worse of an understanding due to preconceived notions from past games. So, you should never feel an idea, thought, questions or plan is less worthy than one from someone who 'has more experience'. Hopefully I'm making sense. But here is a specific example. The end of my last session had my players talking with a reclusive kobold shaman. The players had just arrived on a mysterious island and this shaman was their chance to ask questions and learn what they could about the situations they may be soon walking into. My players mostly left the questioning to the two experienced players and they promptly got themselves all twisted up in misconceptions and generally failed to ask any straightforward questions. Later, while talking to my wife about the game, I ask about this and what she thought of how it whet. She basically said she wanted to ask several simple, straightforward questions but did not, feeling intimidated by the perceived knowledge of the experienced players. Turns out, if she had handled the social encounter, the group would have learned much, where the exp'ed guys didn't even ask simple questions like, what's your name, what do these 'big ones' look like. Where is 'blah blah blah'. Anyway, hope my ramblings help.