Abilities like cure light wounds still work.
And it shouldn't be to hard for a rogue to play to his striker role and stay out of harms way.
one character running out of surges is a lot easier to work around. Hang back some.
in 4E endurance takes tactics. You need to spread the damage and heal efficiently.
Hint: having a cleric really helps out of combat healing.
Sure if you didn't have any casters you could last forever. But if you wanted to be effective you had druids clerics wizards etc and they ran out of their good spells very fast.
Healing limits makes getting hurt, hurt. Which is a very good thing when it comes to the feel of the game.
Oh crap the rogue is really hurt sounds ten times better than oh crap the wizard is out of web spells.
I also think your story sounds a bit.. off..? I mean if the battle did leave your party limping, just because it was outside the "tower" doesn't automatically make it a "easy" fight. I mean, the nice thing about 4e, is that by the numbers, you can sorta see if an encounter is going to be challenging (XP of the encounter vs level of the party). Now perhaps there was more to it than that, like not running headlong into the fight, you try jumping through the fire pit, you gonna get burned.
But anywho, the overarching point here I think is to identify and analyze healing surges as a game mechanic. as an encounter healing and tactical maneuver, I think the healing surges bring a lot to the game as PCs are no longer left to die in the front lines, or a cleric playing battlefield Medic running around healing people. But as an overarching adventure/session benefit? The debate is open, I can see that bumps and bruises will happen, I mean the paladin in my group soaks damage like a sponge and constantly has to heal himself via lay on hands or otherwise, I have yet to see a real log jam with healing until now. I do see that there is an interesting topic here, but I do not think I have the right answer but I will break it down to what I think needs debate:
-Potions of healing: Okay, give you static HP, cool, but uses a healing surge?
Issue: "then you could heal forever if it doesn't use up Surges!!!"
Answer: "It's a standard action, besides they cost money"
-Healing surge long term: tactically they're great! I can hold my own for a bit, but help me trigger it Mr. Cleric/Paladin/warlord
Issue: How do we heal over the course of a few tough battles?
Answer: ..perhaps play more tactically sound? ...This is where the extended rest comes into play
Subquestion: How do I extended rest if the current dungeon/tower is time depended?
Answer: Sorry?
-Wands: any more heal sticks for big patch ups after battle?
Issue: Its nice to spend money on a cleric in a stick for large patch ups because after all Cure Light Wounds is a .... DAILY? c'mon!
Plus, wands of vigor heal up to 550hp, and cost just 750gp each. Yes, your character had limitations, but it was possible to circumvent them using the right eq to better suit your campaign needs.
in 4e, out means out. No 2 ways about it. Still undecided if it is a good or bad thing though.
Out of combat healing in 3E was pretty much free. Damage was often meaningless. Damage should never feel meaningless.
Why can't you run away and come back the next day? What were you looking like when you decided to assualt the tower? How many surges did you have left at that point? What level is the encounter? How many encounters are there?
Ths simple answer is I do not know I am not the DM, but we went into this fully rested with all powers and surges availible, our DM like us is new to 4th ed but it following the DM's guide PS we have been playing for 6 years so we arent noobs. I am sure we could leave as that is still an option but I am not trying to just talk about my situation. I am trying to understand where the long dungeon crawls fit in now that we are limited in our abiltiy to push on in the course of one day
Long dungeon crawls fit in by simply having someone keep watch, and moving the six hour extended rest to an eight hour extended rest. You know, barricade the doors, etc?
And so, you've been playing for six years. Excellent. I've been playing for nearly 30, and I still find myself in conditions where discretion is the better part of valor. As for 4e, we're ALL noobs right now, so just get used to it.
The ability to push on in the course of a day is now replaced by endurance. Eventually, no matter who you are, you have to sleep for 6 hours. This is a way of making that more mandatory.
Question is why was the fight epic? Often times epic fights are epic because of the powerful creature you attack or because of the sheer odds of the fight. If it was the latter how many of the enemies where minions (one hit one kill creatures) because if they all where normal monsters that could have been the problem.
Which means a cleric is still the biggest boast to party endurance.
wands O infinite out of combat healing took that away from clerics
I'm glad it's back
I thought a major point of 4E was you no longer need a cleric in every adventure?
You don't, but you do need something extra in a high level encounter.
Like I said, I'd ask your DM what level the encounter was, or what his XP budget was.
What level was the party?
Healing surge long term: tactically they're great! I can hold my own for a bit, but help me trigger it Mr. Cleric/Paladin/warlord
Issue: How do we heal over the course of a few tough battles?
Answer: ..perhaps play more tactically sound? ...This is where the extended rest comes into play
Subquestion: How do I extended rest if the current dungeon/tower is time depended?
Answer: Sorry?
The big thing in 4E is that healing is a shared activity. Back it 1E or 2E it was 100% the cleric's job. Ah I did love having that monopoly, the party did what ever I wanted them to do :D
And if you've been fighting for a while, remember that, in real life, you can't fight for hours straight. Heck, a good game of soccer can really take it out of ya, and nobody's hitting you with stuff (well, maybe. Depends on who you play with).
How were the other people doing? If you're down 3/4 of your surges and nobody else is hurting, that might be an indication to hang back a little more during battles.
I know you don't want to make this about your battle, but , if you're level 1, a 700 XP battle isn't pretty hard. What kind of monsters were in it? What were their roles?
DMs have always been limited in how many encounters they could reasonably expect a party to be able to tough their way through. In 3e, this was four encounters. Now, with higher levels, certain parties, and wands and potions this changed - my 3.5 12th level party can probably reasonably handle 6-8 encounters a day, maybe more. But even such 3.5 parties did reach a point where casters are running out of choice spells, smites and special attacks have been used up, and the healing bill is getting heavy - and when the session starts to run long. At that point it's time for the party to take a rest and the group to call it a night.
In 4e, under the expectation that most classes are using about 1 healing surge per combat with the probability that defenders will use 1 or 2 surges and at least 1 or 2 party members use a daily power, a 5 person 4e party can go for about 4-8 encounters as well, even at low levels.
I'd also like to point out, how did you use multiple surges in one battle? Who applied the surges? Generally, you can use only the Second Wind. You said you were full up of 6 at the start, and you used two.
Is is very, very easy to blow through your healing surges. If his party has both a warlord and a cleric, and both used their words on him twice, and used his second wind and a potion, he could have used upwards of 6 surges, in as little as 2 rounds of combat.
I thought a major point of 4E was you no longer need a cleric in every adventure?
No but you are encouraged to take one Defender, one Striker, one Leader and one Controller. The leader 'role' has some healing stuffed in there.
Subquestion: How do I extended rest if the current dungeon/tower is time depended?
Answer: Sorry?
You don't. The game has Milestones for a reason, however the DM must be aware that it isn't the 50 potions of Healing (random number) that determine when the group has to stop but when the group is just unable to produce Surges.
Also do remember from your adventure, the group screwed up, if there was a time sensitive quest going on (save the princess) doesn't mean it will be victory. In this cause you push on and possibly die or you give up and accept defeat.
So how long had you been fighting before this? Rogue's get 6 surges per day. So either you've had to spend 4 after a particular fight (which means something went really bad in that fight) or you've been fighting for a while.
And if you've been fighting for a while, remember that, in real life, you can't fight for hours straight. Heck, a good game of soccer can really take it out of ya, and nobody's hitting you with stuff (well, maybe. Depends on who you play with).
Also remember that powers let you activate more than one Healing Surge per encounter. A Paladin can waste 2-3 in an encounter just on Lay on Hands and the Cleric and/or Warlord can allow an ally to use many. You can burn thru your allotted Surges rather quickly in one encounter.
No in 3E we had potions....wands.....scrolls...... **** a freakin rogue and use magic device was a welfare cleric. there were alot more options and you shouldnt have to have a cleric in every session and once again ur not answering my question..... no mater how much you "spred it out" huge epics battles no longer seem viable is anyone else out there that can chime in?
Healing now has a limit. Most characters will have enough healing surges and the like to completely heal themselves at least twice. That's plenty of healing.
If you ask me, one of the BAD things about 3.5 was infinite resources.
I'd also like to point out, how did you use multiple surges in one battle? Who applied the surges? Generally, you can use only the Second Wind. You said you were full up of 6 at the start, and you used two.
I know you don't want to make this about your battle, but , if you're level 1, a 700 XP battle isn't pretty hard. What kind of monsters were in it? What were their roles?
Second wind. Warlord and cleric can also let you expend additional surges.
You would burn through them very fast. Lets say all the kobolds focus fire on him. Considering that surges only let you recover 1/4 of your max hp (not accounting for effects like healing word which heal extra), this means that even a 1st lv fighter with 30hp needs to expend 3 surges just to heal 20 hp. And I can easily imagine a typical battle dealing much more damage than that.
That is also a problem. It doesn't matter if everyone else still have all their healing surges unexpended. If one is dry, you all have to rest, no way around it. What are you going to do? Leave him behind and continue adventuring?
And in real life my friend cant cast fireballs..... This isnt real life it's a game we are HEROES we are suposed to be able to fight harder and longer.
I like the current system as is. But if your group doesn't then all I can say is test some house rules. You said something about potions not being consuming a Healing Surge, that could work or you could run with something like Healing Surges reset after each encounter.
Going off the second one but more paper work involved the player could 'borrow' Surges of the next day. This way when you run out, between encounters, instead of resting you could pull a couple of those Surges and when you get to to rest and they should reset you lose the borrowed amount.
However you set a Houserule about this you may want to weaken the effects of milestones as you are in essence making them much easier to achieve.
I dont know why poeple keep refurring to the particular fight i was talking about.
Because thats what you gave us to work with. If you didn't want it used shouldn't have used it it as an example of your point.
I am asking in general how do we as dnd fans handle the fact that we are limited to a small nmber of heals per day
Houerule it or change the adventuring style to mimic the new rules.
Houerule it or change the adventuring style to mimic the new rules.
I just think wizzards missed the fact that those long drawn out dungeon crawls and castle seiges were a staple of dnd
Wasn't it only two or three weeks ago that people were complaining that healing surges made healing far too easy in 4e and made everything a cakewalk.
We seem to have come full circle....
Second wind. Warlord and cleric can also let you expend additional surges.
You would burn through them very fast. Lets say all the kobolds focus fire on him. Considering that surges only let you recover 1/4 of your max hp (not accounting for effects like healing word which heal extra), this means that even a 1st lv fighter with 30hp needs to expend 3 surges just to heal 20 hp. And I can easily imagine a typical battle dealing much more damage than that.
That is also a problem. It doesn't matter if everyone else still have all their healing surges unexpended. If one is dry, you all have to rest, no way around it. What are you going to do? Leave him behind and continue adventuring?
This is what i mean what are your options after you run out in a situation like this, thanks Tordek we know ur a total beefcake but you just got too tired go back and wait at the inn?
I just think wizzards missed the fact that those long drawn out dungeon crawls and castle seiges were a staple of dnd
I can do them just fine.
My players handle my long 8 encounter long dungeons without much problem. They find places to rest up and heal. They use caution when they heal. They run around and fight with their roles.
Wizards has playtested this game more than any other D&D game in the history of the line. I think they know quite well how long players should last.
One thing I'd like to note is that this game rewards people who work as a team now, more than ever. If you don't work as a team, you can get hurt badly.
I can do them just fine.
They find places to rest up and heal.
Give example and dont say bar the door and rest
Give example and dont say bar the door and rest
Bar door, rope trick and rest.
Give example and dont say bar the door and rest
Why not?
What's so wrong about barring the door and resting with someone keeping watch?
Bar door, rope trick and rest.
I am trying to get a contrustive answer, please dont be a troll
Why not?
What's so wrong about barring the door and resting with someone keeping watch?
Because I understand that tactic, I am asking what happens if in this situation you can't, then what do you do.
Because I understand that tactic, I am asking what happens if in this situation you can't, then what do you do.
You find somewhere to bunk down, and you rest. The rules have always specified that a party must have rest for a certain number of hours in the day to heal some, to recharge spells and what not.. this is nothing new. I've forced my players to stop fighting after a set of encounters so they can get that rest in too. Nothing really has changed here, other than what gets recharged.
This is what i mean what are your options after you run out in a situation like this, thanks Tordek we know ur a total beefcake but you just got too tired go back and wait at the inn?
Correct. To elaborate, it is not that you shouldn't run out, but what you can do if you do run out. Because surges are ultimately expendable. Yes, there are many ways you can do to really stretch your healing, but that still does not do away with the fact that supplementary healing is not as readily available as it once was. In fact, it is apparently now a very tightly controlled commodity. Even healing potions consume a healing surge, so there is a cap on how much hp you can regain at any one time.
It is like the old debates on the viability of a raise dead mechanic in dnd. You can give me a 101 reasons on why resurrection magic ruins your game, but at the end of the day, you still need to offer me a viable alternative for when I do die (because death is always a possibility regardless of how carefully I may play my PC). Same goes for healing surges.
Wizards has playtested this game more than any other D&D game in the history of the line. I think they know quite well how long players should last.
Considering the recent skill challenge fiasco, that doesn't really count for much, IMO.
You find somewhere to bunk down, and you rest. The rules have always specified that a party must have rest for a certain number of hours in the day to heal some, to recharge spells and what not.. this is nothing new. I've forced my players to stop fighting after a set of encounters so they can get that rest in too. Nothing really has changed here, other than what gets recharged.
And if that is not viable? What if they run dry while say, rushing against time to stop the enemy cleric from opening some portal and allowing Orcus to enter our world? Are we to assume that the enemies will wait 8 hours for them to recharge fully before attempting to free him, so that the PCs can burst in at just the right moment?;)
You find somewhere to bunk down, and you rest. The rules have always specified that a party must have rest for a certain number of hours in the day to heal some, to recharge spells and what not.. this is nothing new. I've forced my players to stop fighting after a set of encounters so they can get that rest in too. Nothing really has changed here, other than what gets recharged.
I dont understand why you dont realize I want an answer that doesnt involve rest..... just one valid answer is what i have been searching for
Correct. To elaborate, it is not that you shouldn't run out, but what you can do if you do run out. Because surges are ultimately expendable. Yes, there are many ways you can do to really stretch your healing, but that still does not do away with the fact that supplementary healing is not as readily available as it once was. In fact, it is apparently now a very tightly controlled commodity. Even healing potions consume a healing surge, so there is a cap on how much hp you can regain at any one time.
It is like the old debates on the viability of a raise dead mechanic in dnd. You can give me a 101 reasons on why resurrection magic ruins your game, but at the end of the day, you still need to offer me a viable alternative for when I do die (because death is always a possibility regardless of how carefully I may play my PC). Same goes for healing surges.
Considering the recent skill challenge fiasco, that doesn't really count for much, IMO.
And if that is not viable? What if they run dry while say, rushing against time to stop the enemy cleric from opening some portal and allowing Orcus to enter our world? Are we to assume that the enemies will wait 8 hours for them to recharge fully before attempting to free him, so that the PCs can burst in at just the right moment?;)
Finally someone who understand what I am saying.... I love how poeple think mosters will never figure out how to break a bared door down... But what do you consider for options once those healing surges are spent? Make do?
In 3.x there were a lot of rogue 'welfare clerics' running around with healsticks. Under that build, you could replace your healer with an additional mega-damage dealer, and could feasibly go through more combats.
When working as a team in 4e, and things don't go wrong, several big fights are possible. It also depends on your idea of epic fights, however. A ton of minions swarming through a breached wall is epic, but without some solid aoe attackers, it's going to be a daunting task.
example:
500xp encounter (lvl 2, for 4 PCs)
Goblin Hexer, Goblin Skirmisher, 10 Goblin Cutters.
With aoe? Cakewalk, most likely. Without aoe? Possible nightmare. A couple lucky hits and the PCs are going to be limping away. It is likely that a party that is rogue, ranger, paladin, warlord is going to use more healing surges than one that has a rogue, wizard, paladin, warlord. With a lack of aoe attacks, it could take 4-5 rounds just to deal with the minions.
An epic fight can be against one big bad and his few followers also.
500xp encounter
Orc Eye of Gruumish, 2 Orc Raiders.
Less baddies means less often is the rogue getting counter-flanked, means less healing surges spent on the rogue. Let the defender take the brunt of the damage, he has more to spare. A dragonborn fighter will easily have 11 at lvl 1, AND he gets a bonus when using one.
So, it's not limiting the epicness in fights, but the more baddies you see means the more careful you have to be to control the battlefield. Besides, epic is all in context. Fighting that first encounter as they've just breached the wall to the keep you've been helping defend is slightly more epic than encountering those same guys on a grassy knoll, while they're eating lunch.
But the XP is the same. :D
At that point in 3.5 you had hypothetically 1 cleric and one paladin in a party. This would mean you might have 2 clw and 1lay on hands for a grand total of 2d8+1 +4 + whatever cmw you have for the entire party per day.
Lets just say in 4.0 each player can theoretically heal themselves up completely and with a cleric a couple of times. Wizards kept the damage that enemies do you the same while tripling your hit points (the enemies were tripled as well but still)
This isn't even close for how much more healing you get in 4.0
besides 4.0 was designed so that you could have 4 encounters a day and to insure that they put a limit on healing (with all the at will powers they can't rely on the cap being spell totals)
If there were more healing surges all that would do is allow more encounters per day at the rate of about 1 per every 2 surges (the only other thing expended is daily abilities)
as possable solutions to the issue of one person running out its possible for him to be in the back with a ranged weapon for the rest of the day (except the defender (unless the leader or striker feel like going in) but he has lots) and your party goes on as before
Originally Posted by Joff-PatchworkSaint
I dont know why poeple keep refurring to the particular fight i was talking about.
I know your adventure isn't the issue of debate, but It has brought to light (to you) that healing isn't as liquid as it used to be (i.e. wands, scrolls, free potions)
what I'M interested in learning about is why Potions of Healing require the use of a surge. It seems sort of frustrating having requirements for something so necessary. But as I write this I can see the value of having it as it puts more usefulness onto a Cleric or class who can heal...........
..
..sorta.
Which brings me to my next interest: Why can't anyone heal well? I mean sure it's great having a cleric or warlord use their abilities to trigger your surges, but no one can do it for free (well the cleric can, once per day? yeesh)
Why is it like that? Maybe I am not clear on the utility spells, or the number of them, but is there anything else (at-will, encounter, daily, Utility) that lets healing happen for free?
I think Joff is trying to bring that general discussion to light. I am not saying there Should be heal stick in 4e but there is really limited healing always..
From Surge costing potions, to once per day Cure light Wounds ( a staple of any adventure)
I am just curious to see what people think of the general healing situation..
Originally Posted by Joff-PatchworkSaint
I dont know why poeple keep refurring to the particular fight i was talking about.
and getting back to your thing, sorry to say, but the encounter did its job, it was a challenging fight for 4 PCs (since one was not in the battle) and resources were used accordingly.
I just think wizzards missed the fact that those long drawn out dungeon crawls and castle seiges were a staple of dnd
I think that's possible, but in this example, if you are trying to rush you will get killed unless you're smart.
A dungeon can be rested in and spells/surges can be recovered. Sleeping in dungeons is also a staple of DnD.
Perhaps rushing the gate isn't always a good idea.
Considering the recent skill challenge fiasco, that doesn't really count for much, IMO.
To be fair the combat style probably got a wee bit more testing then the skill challenges.
I dont understand why you dont realize I want an answer that doesnt involve rest..... just one valid answer is what i have been searching for
If the question is 'I used up all my Surges but want to continue without resting' the answer is you can't. Well you can but with 0 surges. You can either change your playstyle, try to manage the tactics/surges of the team better (that only matters if your group isn't playing like a team) or houserule it.
As for the skill challenges.. if you use aid another, and you have adequate bonuses, they work just fine. I've been using them just fine.
Look, you over-extended yourself. There is no way on a level 2 fight that you should, as a rogue, with your starting hitpoints and a full complement of powers, be down to just two surges left. There's no way your party handled this fight. SOMEONE broke out of their roles or got too far away from the group/didn't handle the group.
It's a level two encounter, for Pelor's sake. What are you guys going to do when you have a level five or level six encounter? Those are the hard ones.
Which brings me to my next interest: Why can't anyone heal well? I mean sure it's great having a cleric or warlord use their abilities to trigger your surges, but no one can do it for free (well the cleric can, once per day? yeesh)
You can spend your healing surges after resting for 5 minutes, can't you?
There is no way on a level 2 fight that you should, as a rogue, with your starting hitpoints and a full complement of powers, be down to just two surges left.
Umm...a 1st lv rogue has just 26hp (assuming 14 con). An attack from say, a needlefang drake swarm deals 15 damage to a prone PC on average per hit. That is already 2 surges gone (assuming the rogue used second wind, and the cleric used healing word). And you have only used up 1/4 of your xp budget. So there is room for like...3 more of them? This is supposed to be a fair fight for a 1st lv party. And the rogue cannot heal any further without outside help.
So yeah...definitely a bummer.:P
what I'M interested in learning about is why Potions of Healing require the use of a surge. It seems sort of frustrating having requirements for something so necessary. But as I write this I can see the value of having it as it puts more usefulness onto a Cleric or class who can heal...........
..
..sorta.
I think it was put into place to limit a potentially unlimited effect. Go into a Dungeon with 50 potions and the only thing you need to worry about is resting for your Dailies to come back could lead to alot of plowing.
Which brings me to my next interest: Why can't anyone heal well? I mean sure it's great having a cleric or warlord use their abilities to trigger your surges, but no one can do it for free (well the cleric can, once per day? yeesh)
Why is it like that? Maybe I am not clear on the utility spells, or the number of them, but is there anything else (at-will, encounter, daily, Utility) that lets healing happen for free?
All classes have some healing, but all classes are tied to there Healing Surges. There is no separating this unless you Houserule it, personally I sorta like it myself. Note I could be sorely mistake on that but I'm pretty sure I'm not.
I am just curious to see what people think of the general healing situation..
Myself, I like it. I may as game play goes on change the affects of a Healing Surge (maybe the number of them or there heal ratio) but overall I find them to be good.
I think it was put into place to limit a potentially unlimited effect. Go into a Dungeon with 50 potions and the only thing you need to worry about is resting for your Dailies to come back could lead to alot of plowing.
But thats 50 standard actions worth of drinking potions and 2500 gp spent doesnt that kinda balance it out, using those 50 standard actions will get you seriously hurt as you are not attacking back so the mobs can hit you more
But thats 50 standard actions worth of drinking potions and 2500 gp spent doesnt that kinda balance it out, using those 50 standard actions will get you seriously hurt as you are not attacking back so the mobs can hit you more
You could use them in between combat. That would still let them fulfill their purpose of supplying an additional source of healing beyond what the party would normally be able to access.
You could use them in between combat. That would still let them fulfill their purpose of supplying an additional source of healing beyond what the party would normally be able to access.
Which is what I think they should be used for, those surges come in great during combat but out of cambat I dont wanna blow 4 just to be fully healed again.
I think it was put into place to limit a potentially unlimited effect. Go into a Dungeon with 50 potions and the only thing you need to worry about is resting for your Dailies to come back could lead to alot of plowing.
Yeah, but isn't that kinda the Catch 22. Like "plowing" may happen, it will just taper off when your dailies and stuff are dripping away.
plus I agree with Joff, the actions and GP required to use them is a pretty significant burden.
I guess my question is, what do people think about removing the Surge required for a potion. There seems to be no other way to get some healing (somewhat) freely into the party.
Sure it might make the party last longer, but is that so bad? They may need to rest for other reasons (powers, items etc)
I am just curious as to why the surge requirement is there.
20+ years or so of playing D&D, and we've spent thousands of in game nights sleeping on the cold, cold floors of an unforgiving dungeon.
As for the needlefang drake swarm.. umm.. a Rogue is a striker, not a defender. He doesn't and shouldn't be handling that swarm. I'd have a fighter mark it and then I'd move somewhere else.
I'd run with a brutal scoundral tactic build, carrying a dagger and sneak attacking all over the board. I'd be using riposte and deft strike and bouncing all over, interrupting, attacking, and everything else.
But that's just me.
But thats 50 standard actions worth of drinking potions and 2500 gp spent doesnt that kinda balance it out, using those 50 standard actions will get you seriously hurt as you are not attacking back so the mobs can hit you more
Gold doesn't balance it out to me.
But even if you give up your standard action to drink, you still get a minor and move action to play with. There are some nifty powers that in those action sets.
Yeah, but isn't that kinda the Catch 22. Like "plowing" may happen, it will just taper off when your dailies and stuff are dripping away.
plus I agree with Joff, the actions and GP required to use them is a pretty significant burden.
I guess my question is, what do people think about removing the Surge required for a potion. There seems to be no other way to get some healing (somewhat) freely into the party.
Sure it might make the party last longer, but is that so bad? They may need to rest for other reasons (powers, items etc)
I am just curious as to why the surge requirement is there.
The problem is that at high levels, where buying even 100+ potions are just a drop in the bucket in terms of cash, you'll have parties that never needs to rest except to recover their dailies.
Oh, and everyone, drinking potion is a minor action.
Well, you've heard my advice.
20+ years or so of playing D&D, and we've spent thousands of in game nights sleeping on the cold, cold floors of an unforgiving dungeon.
As for the needlefang drake swarm.. umm.. a Rogue is a striker, not a defender. He doesn't and shouldn't be handling that swarm. I'd have a fighter mark it and then I'd move somewhere else.
I'd run with a brutal scoundral tactic build, carrying a dagger and sneak attacking all over the board. I'd be using riposte and deft strike and bouncing all over, interrupting, attacking, and everything else.
But that's just me.
I actually took the dogder and snuck all around the boared sneak actacking flanking deft striking everthing......... doesnt stop an arrow in the back for out of a tree... yes in a perfect world the mobs would never touch a striker they would see the beef guy and attack him 100% of the time. It doesnt always happen. Rogues get hurt, fighters get ignored, it happens, the question in this board that you really have done nothing to answer is if your out of surges, and rest is not an option what are, with the focus being on why potions have a surge cost attached...
Yeah, but isn't that kinda the Catch 22. Like "plowing" may happen, it will just taper off when your dailies and stuff are dripping away.
But with exception to Surges and Dailies what else tapers off? Nothing I can think of so if you manage the Daily powers (both yourself and your items) you could clear that Dungeon much easier.
plus I agree with Joff, the actions and GP required to use them is a pretty significant burden.
Only if the DM is enforcing some control on your intake of wealth. I know one of the books gives you a wealth guide but I've been many DM's that toss that guidebook to the wayside and money can become of no object.
I guess my question is, what do people think about removing the Surge required for a potion. There seems to be no other way to get some healing (somewhat) freely into the party.
Weaken milestones, you've made them easier to get. Also make sure that the DM looks at the cost vs. how much gold he gives out. Could make them a little more rare to find so that the player watches over his stash.
Sure it might make the party last longer, but is that so bad? They may need to rest for other reasons (powers, items etc)
I am just curious as to why the surge requirement is there.
To my knowledge Dailies and Surges where the only rechargeable effect. Unlike before when the caster ran out of spells you pretty much stopped, same thing but applied in a broader light.
The standard encounter would be 500XP only, this one was indeed supposed to be hard.
Hint : don't be the first to get into melee, let the fighter start, and only then go. If you go to flank, good, but not if it means that you will be yourself flanked by several opponents.
Is you play smart (and your DM doesn't thow another big hard encounter), you should be able to be effective in several more encounters. Sure, you will have to go less into melee range (don't forget that daguers and shuriken can do some effective damage, and for minions you don't even have to hit hard)
When you can't heal anymore , your characters are just plain tired, and they must rest. I know you don't like that answer, but that's the answer.
During the fight my rogue took the most dmg...
This is the real crux of the issue. The Striker should not be taking most of the damage. The Defender should. With more HP, more healing surges, and more ways to activate said healing surges, the entire party can go for much longer before the defender is, well, defending. That's where they shine. A Strike just isnt designed to lay siege to a tower in the front lines.
That is also a problem. It doesn't matter if everyone else still have all their healing surges unexpended. If one is dry, you all have to rest, no way around it. What are you going to do? Leave him behind and continue adventuring?
You press on. The guy with low (or no) healing surges just needs to be more cautious. Take cover in fights, stay near the defenders, use ranged attacks against melee opponents, etc.
If a fighter or paladin is standing in the middle of the room crunching bandits, it's unlikely that anyone's going to be too concerned about the rogue taking cover in the back of the fight.
And to address the title of this thread: how epic was your fight if everyone comes out of it fresh as a daisy? If it was a truly epic fight, you should be banged up, questioning how much further you can press your luck.
This is the real crux of the issue. The Striker should not be taking most of the damage. The Defender should. With more HP, more healing surges, and more ways to activate said healing surges, the entire party can go for much longer before the defender is, well, defending. That's where they shine. A Strike just isnt designed to lay siege to a tower in the front lines.
Once again yes in a perect world the defender would take all the damage, but this is not WoW, sunder does not keep a moster on you through the whole fight, if one person is decimating ur allies you will focus on that person, did you read farthur where i said the dmg i took was from two "snipers" in trees who both hit me with sneak attacks... defenders job is to take the damage yes, but that doesnt mean monsters will want to attack them over someone else
Which brings me to my next interest: Why can't anyone heal well? I mean sure it's great having a cleric or warlord use their abilities to trigger your surges, but no one can do it for free (well the cleric can, once per day? yeesh)
Why is it like that? Maybe I am not clear on the utility spells, or the number of them, but is there anything else (at-will, encounter, daily, Utility) that lets healing happen for free?
In my games, warlords and clerics are pretty good healers. In my main game, our warlord has a knack for healing almost double our healing surge every time he uses his minor action power. And in my online game, our cleric regularly heals for 6-8 plus our healing surge value. That's often enough to go from bloodied to full hp.
Healing surges reflect your long-term health and stamina. When you're out of healing surges, not even magic can keep you going much longer. From a game design perspective, healing surges are your primary long term resource. Managing healing surges properly determines how long you can adventure. Providing a cheap, unlimited healing source basically removes any reason for a party to rest aside from recuperating daily powers.
I've found the healing surges limitation to be a refreshing change in 4e. No longer is the party endurance determined by how many spells the wizard has left, or how much healing magic the cleric still has. It's determined by how banged up everyone is, which makes a lot more sense to me.
You press on. The guy with low (or no) healing surges just needs to be more cautious. Take cover in fights, stay near the defenders, use ranged attacks against melee opponents, etc.
If a fighter or paladin is standing in the middle of the room crunching bandits, it's unlikely that anyone's going to be too concerned about the rogue taking cover in the back of the fight.
And to address the title of this thread: how epic was your fight if everyone comes out of it fresh as a daisy? If it was a truly epic fight, you should be banged up, questioning how much further you can press your luck.
I am in no way saying my fight was epic, I am saying is there still room for epics fights in a system that limits ur healing capabilities
Potions have a surge cost attached to them because of the fact that Hit Points are NOT DAMANGE points, and are instead an abstraction taking into account many different factors. One such factor is stamina/endurance.
When you can't heal anymore , your characters are just plain tired, and they must rest. I know you don't like that answer, but that's the answer.
Actually......... I do like it. ;) It actually brings to the surface something I have been trying to put in the game through fluff "Misses that hurt" i.e. not every "hit" is a bodily wound, as you said HP is an abstraction.
regardless, you just dawned on me why there is a limit, cause dern it, your hero gets tired!
on the flip. I can hear someone saying "But it's magic healing! why can't it give me more endurance and heal my wounds"
Plus... if you have no surges, the Potion Does not work, correct?
if that is true.. I can hear one player saying that "this magic potion isn't that magical If I am not effected by it."
But I will refute that along the lines of something like your body is overwhelmed or immune to the magical effects of this potion. Since we always joke making potions like 1 gallon jugs that don't work unless you consume all the liquid.
In my games, warlords and clerics are pretty good healers. In my main game, our warlord has a knack for healing almost double our healing surge every time he uses his minor action power. And in my online game, our cleric regularly heals for 6-8 plus our healing surge value. That's often enough to go from bloodied to full hp.
Healing surges reflect your long-term health and stamina. When you're out of healing surges, not even magic can keep you going much longer. From a game design perspective, healing surges are your primary long term resource. Managing healing surges properly determines how long you can adventure. Providing a cheap, unlimited healing source basically removes any reason for a party to rest aside from recuperating daily powers.
I've found the healing surges limitation to be a refreshing change in 4e. No longer is the party endurance determined by how many spells the wizard has left, or how much healing magic the cleric still has. It's determined by how banged up everyone is, which makes a lot more sense to me.
I see what your saying and I agree, I just think they should have given some more surges or a extreamly hard/expensive way for players to regain surges or heal for free wihtout resting that would allow players the oportunity to still be able to do those long drawn out fights where resting might not be an option
I am in no way saying my fight was epic, I am saying is there still room for epics fights in a system that limits ur healing capabilities
And the answer is, YES.
There is still room for epic fights and epic battles.
No, a group of five isn't going to take out 4 straight encounters that are "hard" (+3 or more from their level). But one level up? Sure.
Your problem was that you tried to attack a fortified position through a choke point. Don't blame the system because the fortified position held.
Your problem was that you tried to attack a fortified position through a choke point. Don't blame the system because the fortified position held.
You prove a dern good point.
And the answer is, YES.
There is still room for epic fights and epic battles.
No, a group of five isn't going to take out 4 straight encounters that are "hard" (+3 or more from their level). But one level up? Sure.
Your problem was that you tried to attack a fortified position through a choke point. Don't blame the system because the fortified position held.
Red you need to stop talking or realize i am NOT TALKING ABOUT MY PARTICULAR BATTLE.................. I am asking a question not blaming a system I clearly stated I LIKE THE SYSTEM I am ASKING if poeple think that they are limited on a epic long drawn out scale due to healing limitations most people have given great feedback and I thank THOSE PEOPLE.
Once again yes in a perect world the defender would take all the damage, but this is not WoW, sunder does not keep a moster on you through the whole fight, if one person is decimating ur allies you will focus on that person, did you read farthur where i said the dmg i took was from two "snipers" in trees who both hit me with sneak attacks... defenders job is to take the damage yes, but that doesnt mean monsters will want to attack them over someone else
Okay, then use tactics. Dont charge a tower. Its foolish, and with only four party members and no one a defender, it SHOULD have been a TPK. Stealth is ridiculously easy in 4e, if you havent noticed the tons of threads on it. Smart playing, less bashing in the door mentality would be one solution. "Charge!" gets you hurt, yup. Learned a lesson.
Personally, I love the limited healing surges/potions. It is a grant game management for the flow and progress of adventures, and prevents the PCs from being consistently being careless.
regardless, you just dawned on me why there is a limit, cause dern it, your hero gets tired!
I think that's exactly right. When a character is out of healing surges, his/her body has hit its limit. Not even magic can extend your health indefinitely.
Red you need to stop talking or realize i am NOT TALKING ABOUT MY PARTICULAR BATTLE.................. I am asking a question not blaming a system I clearly stated I LIKE THE SYSTEM I am ASKING if poeple think that they are limited on a epic long drawn out scale due to healing limitations most people have given great feedback and I thank THOSE PEOPLE.
"I fought badly, but that's not the point! There's not enough healing surges!"
That's really kinda sad. You're asking to house rule your bad play, and then you're sniping at people because they point out that your bad play DOES INDEED have an effect on whether or not you use healing surges.
MY group works JUST fine with what they have. MY group can finish basically a level 2 encounter as 5 level ones without much work at all.
Healing surges aren't the problem here. The problem is one of tactics. If you played this with good tactics, you shouldn't have been in nearly the condition you were in.
You went in the FRONT LINES as you attacked the FRONT GATE OF A TOWER. What did you really think was going to happen? The advantage goes to the defender in this situation.
Seriously. Why are you continuing to argue that your play had nothing to do with it? Isn't it obvious that if you need 4 healing surges in a L2 encounter, that SOMETHING is going wrong here?
Now, seriously. The forum is called "Player Advice."
Here's my advice. Be more roguelike. Don't lead in battle. Scout the area if you're going to attack it. If you're going to go through the most defended point, then be ready for it to be defended. Be FAST.
Don't tell me to shut up when you tell people to enjoy the thread. Everyone here knows really what the problem is, even your GM. It's NOT that players run out of healing surges too early.
I've told you repeatedly, my group and other groups here get through large encounters just fine. Mine got to the bottom of a pretty nice sized dungeon without too much problem.. and if I build my 300 encounter dungeon like I'm planning on (for levels 1 to 30) , then I imagine players will get through THAT just fine too.
You just don't like the fact that you have to rest. Well, too damn bad. It's always been there, only now, it's judged by actual tiredness, and not by the wizard shooting off his wad.
The funny thing is, more people believe and support me than you. Even your damn GM has figured out WHY the healing surges work they way they do and why they make sense.
To the OP:
No you can't go through several hard encounters in one day(except with extreme luck), there is a reason they're called hard encounters.
Your party has options besides resting if you're out of surges(although you should), you can always press on and risk death if time is a factor, that's what a real hero would do.
People here are posting to help you and have good thoughts, especially redcard; and yet you respond with many angry, bitter outbursts instead of any sign of gratitude. It might not have been what you wanted to hear, but that doesn't excuse your behaviour.
You managed to take "Find a room and barricade it for a rest" and turn it into a fight. You managed to take this topic from "Healing Surges Ruin Epic Fights" to "I mean, over the day, don't they kinda limit you badly?" to "Gee, Redcard, you're a prick because you suggested the ONLY THING in the RAW to get more healing surges."
You are the one who said it ruins epic fights, and then you gave a single example of where you guys severely botched a fight.
I've run probably between twenty and thirty encounters since this new version came out. And.. surprise.. if you botch the encounter, you'll use more surges, and you'll be able to do less in a day before requiring an extended rest.
Rules are operating as intended.
-Potions of healing: Okay, give you static HP, cool, but uses a healing surge?
Issue: "then you could heal forever if it doesn't use up Surges!!!"
Answer: "It's a standard action, besides they cost money"
Potions of healing, recovery and vitality are minor actions. PH pg 255.
A wand of inspiring strike (cleric 13) wouldn't use surges, heals 15+cha and would attack also.
A few warlord abilities would work as wands also, like bolstering blow or others that add temp HP.
That said, I like the healing surges overall. Though I can see where they might be an uneeded cost for pots since as pointed out it does cost money to get them.
I find myself hoping that the Tome of Treasures coming has rules for dailies on scrolls. Or anything on scrolls for that matter.
To use one not your class you would have to multi-class into it also, so it is kind of limited, but it's possible as an aid.
- Take less damage so that you do not use them as often. This involves tactics before and during combat. If you are in a situation where you know that you will not have an opportunity to rest, take that extra time to figure out exactly where everyone should be and what they should be doing *before* the fight happens. Send scouts ahead of the party to make sure no monsters take you by surprise. Secure each room before plodding on ahead to make sure nothing comes up behind you. In general, be cautious. It may take way more time to do things, but if you wont be able to rest then that time is well spent.
- Find ways to use your At-Will and Encounter powers instead of your daily powers. Save the daily powers for when their effects will be maximized, or for when they will stop you from taking damage.
- Use ranged combat whenever possible. When fighting at a range you will be taking much less damage from enemies. Try to use the terrain to keep enemies away. If you can lure them into a hallway, for example, where only one can be involved in melee combat with the fighter at once, your group will take less damage.
- Keep defensive abilities ready - especially ones that are triggered. If you won't be able to rest you need to conserve those hit points more than you need to deal damage. The fight will take longer, but you can keep fighting for much longer.
- Find jobs that are not quite as dangerous for the injured characters. If the rogue is injured, and the rest of the party is alright, it should be the rogue that holds the artifact / Pushes over the boulder from above / Operates the Machinery / Distracts the smaller enemies while the more dangerous ones are dealt with immediately.
- Figure out ways to overcome your enemies without direct combat. See if you can recover the trap a ways back rather than simply disarming it. Maybe you can use it later on. See if you can sneak around enemies, or even use environmental hazards to subdue them.
- Use limited resources that you normally conserve. If you are the kind of character that wouldn't use the Necklace of Fireballs except wen depleted of other resources, do it anyways. Your magic item might be used up, but your hit points aren't.
- And, if all else fails, suck it up and quit whining. You can't always have it your way. Everyone has to rest sometime.
Likewise, just as the party may use better tactics, so too can the DM. I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that both cancel each other out, such that either party isn't really any better off. At most, they just negate the advantage the other party may have had from using those superior strategies. At the end of the day, you may be no better off than the crap player vs the sloppy DM.
What if I rephrased my question to "We are a group of fairly optimized PCs who are fairly adept at coordinating our efforts and working well together. However, our DM is also a master strategist, and no slouch when it comes to optimizing his xp budget and coming up with monster combinations that work unusually well together. In addition, he is fairly good at the smart usage of appropriate difficult terrain which can stymie the party while keeping any inconvenience caused to his own npcs to a minimum. As a result, despite out best efforts, we find ourselves steadily being drained of our healing surges at an accelerated rate, and because of the nature and constraints of the campaign, it is not feasible nor viable to expect to be able to take an extended rest as and when we please. However, it is so fun testing our mettle that we wouldn't have it any other way, and would thus like to know how we can extend ourselves past our current healing limits."
Discuss.
My point is that the goal of this thread is simply to find solutions to continue surviving even after you have expended your surges, nothing more, so please stop using this as an avenue to lord your supposed mastery of 4e over the rest of us. How well or poorly the OP played is immaterial, IMO.
For instance, there is that suit of armour in the PHB which lets you transfer healing surges at a 2-for-1 rate. Inefficient, but it at least allows some form of portability by allowing you to funnel surges from PCs least likely to require them (such as the controller) to PCs who are in dire need of them the most NOW (like the sample rogue who just ran dry). Better to have 10 surges you do use rather than 20 that will just get wasted/unexpended.
The OP said that it "completely ruins epic fights."
Now he's changed it.
He said he wanted to know what to do with the RAW. I told him the best thing to do is to find a place and bar the doors, put a guy on watch, and take an ER. Hell, the book says to do that.
He got aggressive and upset, and wanted some other answer using the RAW.
There IS no other answer, really, using the RAW. Once the healing surges are gone, they're gone. Yes, you can transfer them around using some items. The paladin can use his instead of you using yours.. but once they are all gone.. if you want to follow the rules as written, you bar the door and take a nap.
The book even says that players should be Fatigued if they do not sleep for a minimum of 6 hours every 24 hours. So you should be, if you're following the rules as written, like the guy asked to, taking your ERs.
Now, you can house rule, you can make potions free, you can do whatever you want to do in your game of D&D. You always have had that capability. But don't ask what you can do, and then get aggressive when you are told that there's only one real surefire solution under the rules. Don't assume that wizards didn't know about epic battles because you got your hat handed to you in one single battle because you tried to come through the front door of a fricken guarded tower.
It's like using a Yugo and then deciding that all cars suck because they are tiny, cramped, and have bad acceleration. It's a hasty generalization, no matter how many times you change your question from what you asked to make it look like something else when you're unhappy with the answer given.
I am not saying i wont stay in the back again ur missing my point... and because in 3.5 you always had potions or a wand or something, in 4th i am limited to 8 healing a day... there is no back up there should be some alternative that doesnt limit the DM when saying o well I want to make this epic... oh wait they can only heal like 8 times each... still not answering the question of how are more then 1-2 hard fights per day possible anymore
In 3.5, you only had all of those things if your DM let you have them. I'm of the belief that you can't really buy a wand or potion from a simple country store. Typically, you wither had to find or make them yourself. So, if you know what you are doing, you could win in a fight like that.
The Paladin and Fighters should take the brunt of the attack with the Cleric aiding them. The Ranger should be used to scan for ambushes after your ambush. As the Rogue, you should be on anti-ambush duty. If there is a sniper in a tree, sneak up and give him a bad day. The Wizard should put his magic where it is needed.
As for the 1 or two hard fights a day, I take a page from the Lord of the Rings. How many actual fights did the fellowship participate in during the first, second, and third movie?
Fellowship of the Ring: Moria goblin fight, Uruk'Hai fight.
The Two Towers: Warg rider ambush, Battle of Helms Deep
Return of the King: Battle at Minis Tirith, Battle at the Black Gate
Two major battles in each movie, but they were still epic. There were amazing use of skills for encounters and who could forget the "running with tail between legs" in Moria after the crypt fight?
It doesn't take combat to make an epic adventure, it takes a well thought out plan and a good DM. Oh, and even when injured, there are ways of not dying. Just because you are a rogue does not man that you can't use a ranged weapon.
There's no "mastery" to lord over.
The OP said that it "completely ruins epic fights."
His opening message did indeed sound somewhat crude and inflammatory, but it does delve into a rather legitimate issue which I feel is worth taking a second look into. This is the crux of the matter we should be focusing on - what he said, not how he said it.
Limited healing surges - bug or feature? Yes, I admit it does feel good that the fighter can now evidently heal himself based on his own merit without having to rely on the party cleric, and that they overall have access to more healing at lower lvs (unless the 3e party took the effort to scribe scrolls of vigor) but it definitely seems far more limiting compared to 3e in terms of how far your party can afford to stretch themselves.
What is the purpose of imposing such a strict and hard cap that is virtually impossible to work around in any manner? The whole idea behind offering at-will and encounter powers seems to be exactly that - to let your party break away from the limiting 4-encounter threshold in 3e, and allow you the flexibility of customizing how many encounters you want your party to be able to face at any 1 time before they get a chance to rest. Instead, we seem to have just traded 1 drawback for another. My wizard may never run out of spells (not that it was ever a problem for me in 3e), but his effective hp is now much less (because he only has so much healing, not taking into account effects like using sunburst every 5 minutes as an infinite source of healing), which then puts a damper on the number of encounters the party can face, arguably even moreso than the vancian spellcasting system.
Now, you can house rule, you can make potions free, you can do whatever you want to do in your game of D&D. You always have had that capability.
The issue here is that we should not have to. The whole point of us paying so much for existing dnd material is exactly that we trust wotc to supply us with an internally consistent and well-balanced ruleset which we can just play right out of the box without having to worry that it was poorly designed and would upset the game.
It seems inconceivable that wotc's answer to such an issue would simply be to "suck it up", "too bad, loser" or "go take a 6-hour nap", without considering the realities of differing styles of play or recognizing that said solutions may not always be plausible, rather than acknowledging and tackling this problem head-on.
As it stands now, the healing surges are a bit of a limitation, especially - as I see it - at lower levels and higher levels. At lower levels it will be because you still are weak and aren't equipped to take on 3-5 encounters in a day (where many will often take about 4 encounters a day). At higher levels it will be for the same reason, but because you are fighting enemies that are so strong, even if you have proper items (potions, Wands of Healings, etc.) and gear, you are limited in how many healing surges you have in a day before you need to 6-hour rest.
I can also attest to that it does ruin epic fights. For my group of 3 (Fighter, Rogue and Ranger) we did our absolute best for our final encounter in our first 4e session; us against 40 minion zombies and 1 zombie brute - we used our daily and encounter powers wisely, with the Rogue killing 12 zombie minions with his daily in one move - and we still lost because, even after we healing surged, we still had about a dozen zombie minions and a zombie brute hurling black goo at us.
My suggestion is that you will have to house rule on that potions heal w/o using a healing surge or go a little easy on the encounters so that the party can survive and keep on going.
I will admit that it does force the party to think more about how to kill the most in the least number of turns without attempting to use daily's or encounters (like having a fighter regenerate while he double moves to try and bum rush a group of longbow hobgoblins, screaming and drawing their attention away from the rest of the party while the rest of the party responds and hits the longbow hobgoblins with their own ranged weapons), but the game should be fun and these healing surges take away some of the fun in it.
What I have seen is:
1. go rest
2. you played badly
3. you are right, the rules are broken.
Here is my opinion:
One of two things happened after this (assuming you didn't rest), either you got banged up pretty badly, possibly even including deaths of characters or TPK, or
Your DM will adjust the difficulty of the encounters.
One of the best adventures I ever came up with was for a 5th level party, all they had to do was deliver a message to a kingdom that was about a week away. All that was in their way was orcs, groups of 10 to 20 at a time. Cakewalk, right?
After the first day, just before they went to rest, an exausted courier ran up to them. The message had to be delivered in 3 days. The only way the party could do it was by moving non-stop, without sleep. I imposed a -2 to attacks and AC, and -1 to damage after the first night without sleep, and a -4/-2 on the third day of travel. Orcs became brutal, spells ran out, party barely made it in time.
A fifth level party remembered battling orcs more than any other fight I ever gave them.
But since they couldn't rest to recover their spells and fatigue, obviously the game is broken and you can't have epic battles in 3rd ed (grin).
You notice he compains about too few healing surges, but I bet he hates that wizards now have nearly unlimited spells.
I don't see what the problem with that is.
So in a way, yes, the new system ruins the feelings you may have had regarding 'epic' fights in previous versions. But largely with the old system fights were not so much epic as "ridiculously padded with healing opportunities". In the old system, investing in stuff like vigor was almost mandatory, and combat became even more of a videogame than it is now. You fight, rest for 5 minutes to be fully healed and go slaughter new stuff.
Now, you have to be mindful of your PC role and mortality. A striker isn't meant to be soaking damage, they weave in and out, hit and run, or more or less stand back behind the meat shields and nuke. Low level games also remove the artificial padding that came into play with cheap healing.
We cannot just jump into the fray because of wands of vigor anymore.
It is also worth noting that vigor was basically worthless during battle itself. It did nothing to let you survive combat. Its advantage was to allow you to patch up after battle, such that you can keep going, and not put a damper in the pace of the campaign when everyone is all fired up by saying "Guys, I need to rest".
Indeed, healing during combat itself was for part a rather inefficient course of action, until you got access to heal/mass heal.
I would argue that it is also how you fight the battle itself which makes the fight epic, and less so of how you heal outside of it. In the very least, I don't see how it makes the campaign any less epic if my party has enough healing to tough it out all the way to the BBEG's lair and confront him for a final climatic showdown, rather than run out half-way and be forced to rest for the day. If anything, it should enhance the epic feel, because it would enable them to make it from point A to point B in one shot.
A striker isn't meant to be soaking damage, they weave in and out, hit and run, or more or less stand back behind the meat shields and nuke. Low level games also remove the artificial padding that came into play with cheap healing.
Shrugs. Maybe he wasn't trying to be a tank. Just that the enemies were able to get to him somehow despite his best efforts and focus fire on him. Enemies could ready standard actions to attack him as he moves in to attack them. Even with front-loaded hp and a healing surges, 20+ hp doesn't really last long against a round of concentrated attacks.
In 3.5, you only had all of those things if your DM let you have them. I'm of the belief that you can't really buy a wand or potion from a simple country store.
Country store? Nah, I go to MagMart, it is might have started as a simple store but it has now grown to a massive superstore that has everything an adventurer can need. Retired adventurers greet you on the way in and there friendly staff and there to help you to the any department.
The issue here is that we should not have to. The whole point of us paying so much for existing dnd material is exactly that we trust wotc to supply us with an internally consistent and well-balanced ruleset which we can just play right out of the box without having to worry that it was poorly designed and would upset the game.
I've found that the RAW healing surge mechanic is well balanced (for my group). Our characters feel like they can handle a few decent fights, but we're always having to make tough decisions about if we should push on or stop for that extended rest.
But I understand that not everyone plays the same kinds of games as my group. It seems to me that the healing surge mechanic is a pretty straight-forward thing to house rule. If you want to run a game where the PC's can last longer, it's relatively simple to increase the number of healing surges that everyone gets.
As far as the issue of, "I shouldn't have to make house rules for my game if it's well designed", keep in mind that not all of us play the same kind of game as yours. If 4e RAW was written to perfectly suit your play style, I'd likely have to make a few house rules to fit my group's play style. A well designed game will almost always require house rules to fit everyone's preferences.
Joff the reason why people keep going back to your example is that it has a big part of what you are saying.
So yes if the party goes into a fight that is harder than their intended level (700 exp encounter vs the recommended 500) AND the rogue takes most of the damage AND uses all (or most of) his healing surges AND the rest of the party had to use their powers to heal the rogue AND the defender doesnt do much of the defending AND you cant rest to refil your healing surges than yes you wont have extended long term dungeon crawls. I dont necessarily see that as a broken system or that wotc had overlooked it.
I think the system is fine. If there aren't limits than the party just brings a portable hole with kegs of healing in them. 4ed is about resouce management. There isnt anymore taking out healing wand #28 when #27 runs empty.
Healing potions taking a surge I think is fine. They are for in combat emergencies.
2. Get armor that gives you resist damage
3. Use stuff or powers that grant temporary hp
4. Paladin lay on hands uses up the paladin healing surges instead of the target's.
5. Several warlord/cleric powers allow healing "as if the player spent a healing surge". This is a way to heal without using up a surge.
6. Take the toughness feat and get 5/10/15 more hitpoints (and recover more hp when you use a surge)
7a. Accept that whatever the circumstances, the hand you were dealt was that you are in really bad shape, but your friends are still 100% so for this one day you will have to be really careful. (A comparable situation to 3.5 would be say you got diseased and the cleric won't have cure disease until tomorrow, or you got con drained and no one will have lesser restoration until tomorrow - I remember this stuff happening a lot to my group)
7b. Suck it up and risk your life for the mission if you can't (or won't) rest. This above all else sounds epic to me.
It seems inconceivable that wotc's answer to such an issue would simply be to "suck it up", "too bad, loser" or "go take a 6-hour nap", without considering the realities of differing styles of play or recognizing that said solutions may not always be plausible, rather than acknowledging and tackling this problem head-on.
Telling them to rest up and continue later is a perfectly reasonable expectation. Especially when poor tactics have caused things to go badly. There are consequences to actions.
Saying that this shouldn't be the issue because it doesn't take inconvenient circumstances that characters might find themselves in doesn't make sense. It would be like complaining that I can't throw my bastard sword three hundred feet straight up with a 10 strength when I run out of arrows, or that I should be able to flap my arms and fly away if my character gets trapped.
When a first level character dies they can only come back if someone can cast Raise Dead and has the cash to spend on it. That's not always possible. Its on the same level of fairness as recharging healing surges.
When you run out of ammo, you can no longer use your bow to attack at range until you purchase or find more ammo. When you run out of gold you can't purchase items until you find more gold. And when you run out of healing surges you can no longer heal as easily until you take time to rest and recover them.
These are all resource using situations. If you feel that the consequences of using up a resource (either foolishly or through bad luck) is unfair, then why use rules at all?
Besides, no system embodies all play styles. That's why there is Rule 0.
A rogues role is striker. Either get in and dispatch the guy and get out, or don't go in.
And if that is not viable? What if they run dry while say, rushing against time to stop the enemy cleric from opening some portal and allowing Orcus to enter our world? Are we to assume that the enemies will wait 8 hours for them to recharge fully before attempting to free him, so that the PCs can burst in at just the right moment?
Then you have failed your mission. You can attempt a mad dash and try a suicide attempt, or you can fall back and face defeat. Either your DM has made the encounter too difficult, or you guys screwed up and got beat up worse then expected. In 4e, you CLW Wand isn't an 'I-Win' button anymore. You actually have to rely on yourself. :P
Same scenario in 3.5, all your spellcasters are out of Spells. No matter how many wands of healing you have, you simply won't defeat 'Orcus' or whoever with only melee attacks.
The flaw of your argument is that you implie that in 3.5, party never ran out of resources. If they didn't, then your DM wasn't challenging you enough.
We are a group of fairly optimized PCs who are fairly adept at coordinating our efforts and working well together. However, our DM is also a master strategist, and no slouch when it comes to optimizing his xp budget and coming up with monster combinations that work unusually well together. In addition, he is fairly good at the smart usage of appropriate difficult terrain which can stymie the party while keeping any inconvenience caused to his own npcs to a minimum. As a result, despite out best efforts, we find ourselves steadily being drained of our healing surges at an accelerated rate, and because of the nature and constraints of the campaign, it is not feasible nor viable to expect to be able to take an extended rest as and when we please. However, it is so fun testing our mettle that we wouldn't have it any other way, and would thus like to know how we can extend ourselves past our current healing limits."
Once again, if your DM is throwing hardcore battle at you guys and he's fully aware of how taxing it is on your characters, then he will plan his game accordingly... or he isn't much of a 'tactical genius'. While several hard battle in a row in a Dungeon Crawl can be problematic (I'm not a big fan of sleeping for 8 hours in the middle of the enemy stronghold myself... total lack of logic there), you simply have to change the fight to 'wilderness' encounter, and you can throw as many hard fight in a row as you want since player can more realistically 'set up camp' in the wilderness/underdark.
To put it bluntly, if you're level 2 party is running a dungeon and every single room is a level 6 encounter... they shouldn't be attempting it at level 2.
If you're DM is playing every single kobold or goblin as a tactical genius that never makes mistakes... he's metagaming.
Limited healing surges - bug or feature? Yes, I admit it does feel good that the fighter can now evidently heal himself based on his own merit without having to rely on the party cleric, and that they overall have access to more healing at lower lvs (unless the 3e party took the effort to scribe scrolls of vigor) but it definitely seems far more limiting compared to 3e in terms of how far your party can afford to stretch themselves.
See, the funny thing is my DM's last campagin was in a world where magic items were rarer then the usual. We didn't have Wand of Vigor or CLW. We didn't have infinite healing potions. And believe me, we had to stop when our caster ran out of spell.
In essence, we were playing a game closer to 4e's healing surge management as far as healing go then the 'typical' 3.5 'there's a magic shop on every corner' scenario.
We couldn't afford to 'fight half assed' and take some damage because we'll be able to restore ourselves to full at the end of the encounter. We had to fight at 100% at each attempt, because if we took to much damage, we'd need to stop (Since the Cleric would expend all his spell into healing).
What 3e did really, was make the game over reliant on magic items and gold. In many way, the Wand of CLW and Vigor were just as important (if not more so!) then an individual party member. They are what allowed you to keep going fight after fight - more so then strategy.
You could even afford to screw up a fight and take way more damage, because, 'heh, no big deal, we'll vigor it!'. >_>
What is the purpose of imposing such a strict and hard cap that is virtually impossible to work around in any manner?
To have the characters, not their equipments and consumable items, be the heroes. To put the emphasis back on tactic, strategy and being 'good' at the game.
My wizard may never run out of spells (not that it was ever a problem for me in 3e), but his effective hp is now much less (because he only has so much healing, not taking into account effects like using sunburst every 5 minutes as an infinite source of healing), which then puts a damper on the number of encounters the party can face, arguably even moreso than the vancian spellcasting system.
To me, this show exactly the difference in gameplay here.
I used my spells all the time as a Wizard. I'd quite often run out and that'd be why we'd need to stop and use Rope Trick. But my Cleric, hardly ever needed to heal us - and we didn't have healing wands. He used his spell offensively and buffed. As treeantmonk says in his guide to playing a God - if you need healing, someone isn't doing their job right. Namely you, the Wizard.
But Wand/Scroll of healing and the metagaming that come with it, kinda screw that up.
So when the decision to cast Web to save tons of damage to the party... or let the party take the damage, because it won't kill you anyway and you can just heal back to full... Well, let see... Option 1 lowers my limited resource (Spell slots). Option 2, doesn't. Gee, I'll pick option 2!
Nevermind that you probably wouldn't want to see your friend get skewered. Nevermind that your character shouldn't know that the fighter has enough 'hit point' to survive the incoming damage.
Your DM had to pressure you enough that you needed to use your character to their fullest in order to survive... otherwise you could just 'weather it' and heal back up afterward. The fact that you mention never running out of spell makes believe this might have been the case here.
The concept of no infinite healing and healing surge, is probably the greatest thing this edition brought to the game. It makes being hurt... hurt. It makes being smart and strategic, pay off. How long you'll be able to go, how many fights you can do before you need to rest, now depends squarely on how good you are a dealing with the encounters, and not how much gold you gave to your local apothecary.
You are in this battle, but you have limited healing. You know your potions and such and surges are gonna run out.
okay, so rest.
Period, end of story, full stop.
Or press on, and risk death.
If I was DMing this, I wou;dn't feel like I was limited in how much damage the NPCs could do, because the party was limited in surges. I'd feel like okay they can rest or they can press up to them.
If they make it, they do. If not, roll new pcs.
Maybe I missed something.