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Help a player help a 1st time DM

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
saintj
Jul 25, 2009 18:36:32 My beautiful, lovely, and wonderfully geeky wife is getting ready to DM a game of 4th edition for me, and I am looking for advice on how to make this a great experience for her.

A little background, I started gaming in Jr. High, stopped a few years later got married, bought a house, and had kids. Around that time a 3rd edition handbook fell into my hands, and about a week later the starter adventure game was in front of me. Next thing I know I was running a group of 4-8 weekly for about 4 years. Then I got sick. It's been about a year and a half since the group fell apart (no one would DM but me, and I was too tired all the time to do the work). My wife has been wonderful this entire time, even missing two straight Origins. Now she's the gaming itch in my eye, and has agreed to run a 4th edition game for just me at the moment, but if it goes well, she wants to get a new group together for her to DM. She is a great storyteller with a wonderful imagination. She is terrified of the rules though.

She's going to be running a modified version H1 Keep on the Shadowfell set in her own home brew world. I'll be running two characters, a Dwarf Cleric and a Halfling Rouge. I have back stories and good motivations for both of them. The advice I want from all the players out there is this. What could a player do (espically in a one player playing multiple characters game) to make DMing as enjoyable as possible?

I'm open and listening to any and all advice!
#2
johnnyslick
Jul 25, 2009 18:57:02 1. Don't play 2 PCs.
2. Let the game play out the way it will. It's sometimes hard to tell where a new DM will be good and where they'll be otherwise until they've done a couple adventures. The fact that she's using existing material is a good sign (it's usually better to learn how the other aspects of DMing - RPing NPCs, coming up with good descriptions, being able to rule on mechanics in a way that sounds non-arbitrary, consistent, and non-waffley).
#3
Shiftkitty
Jul 25, 2009 19:29:54 Be forgiving and patient. Also, get her a DM screen. The tables will be invaluable for speedy reference.

If you were a DM before, you should be familiar with changing hats faster than Bartholomew Cubbins, so I personally see no problem with you playing multiple characters, especially if you act them out differently enough. Just don't get into lengthy conversations with yourself.
#4
johnnyslick
Jul 25, 2009 19:33:35 Eh, it's not so much an issue of "can he do it" as it is one of "should he needlessly complicate the part of the rookie DM by doing it".
#5
graxith
Jul 25, 2009 19:53:56
Eh, it's not so much an issue of "can he do it" as it is one of "should he needlessly complicate the part of the rookie DM by doing it".

I think that two might be a little better, 4 would be prefferable [becuase that's what she'll probably have to deal with normally] but it's a little to much for a person to do two let alone four. Although I agree that she should go slowly in my opinion I think that she should try a small group of PCs first [even after her husband gives her an intro]

Take everything slow. Don't rush her and help her out IF she asks for it. If she doesn't know a rule then helpfully say that you'll look it up for her [even if you know it, give her some sort of victory.]
#6
turbowombat
Jul 25, 2009 20:51:08 #1 rule for not alienating DMs who don't know the rules as well as the players:

If there is a rules argument between DM and player, inform the DM that it is their decision, ask for their judgement and accept it absolutely no matter how wrong it is. If the DM is amicable to the possibility that she might be wrong about this call, take note of the incident and look it up after the game or during a break.
#7
saintj
Jul 25, 2009 20:56:38 I don't think they'll be much of an issue with me running two characters. I'm used to running multiple NPC's, and I'm used to running my PC's by their characteristics not stats or munchkining. I"ve always been more about developing ny character than stats (even my NPC's). If it would help I can post my two character's back stories.

I think that two might be a little better, 4 would be prefferable [becuase that's what she'll probably have to deal with normally] but it's a little to much for a person to do two let alone four. Although I agree that she should go slowly in my opinion I think that she should try a small group of PCs first [even after her husband gives her an intro]

Take everything slow. Don't rush her and help her out IF she asks for it. If she doesn't know a rule then helpfully say that you'll look it up for her [even if you know it, give her some sort of victory.]

#8
alric
Jul 25, 2009 23:59:25 If you want to be really nice, you can try to go along with any hints she gives you. A lot of DM will try to nudge you along a path. It helps if you follow along that path and don't do anything totally unexpected. Otherwise she might have to make stuff up on the spot, and that makes it more difficult.
#9
Krusk
Jul 26, 2009 0:45:08 Depending on how much crap she will put up with from you could do like I did when teaching my girlfriend to DM.

Purposfully go as far away from any plot hints as I can. "Oh, a group of bandits are raiding the caravans leaving town? I better not leave town, I wouldnt want to get robbed, thanks for the heads up." "Oh you want me to gaurd your caravan as it leaves? What about the bandits?" "Oh from the bandits? I could do that, but it sounds real dangerous." After defeating bandits "I find a letter detailing the bandit lords plans to attack the town at dawn tommorow? Can I make it back to town in time to warn everyone? So they can fight him?" "His fortress is near by? I better go sneakily so I don't run into him by accident" After arriving "I bet they can handle this bandit army, they have their gaurds. I am going to investigate that plothook you mentioned about some squeeky doors in the inn." "Hey do I get a bonus to that quest? my backstory says my father was a locksmith so I know a bit about squeeky doors?"

Basically doing my best to get her improvising and used to actually DMing for my players/our group. Where players run away from every plot, and insist on investigating every minor detail you make up on the spot because someone asked about the weather that day.

Although you could consider being nice, and doing things like following obvious plot hooks, and forgiving some inconsistancy with the rules and generic-ness in the plots.

Also offer suggestions on monster tactics, and help with encounter design. Help her, but dont do it for her. Things like "I usually do a couple melee guys to each ranged guy as a good ratio" over "You need 3 goblin blades if you want 2 sharpshooterS"
#10
Shiftkitty
Jul 26, 2009 11:13:28
Eh, it's not so much an issue of "can he do it" as it is one of "should he needlessly complicate the part of the rookie DM by doing it".

Curious, why do you say it will complicate things? (Assuming the player in question can make the voices, mannerisms, etc. different enough to make it clear who is speakig or acting.)
#11
johnnyslick
Jul 26, 2009 21:16:50 IMO the primary reason why the players only play one PC is that it is really, really hard to get into the head of more than one character at a time. The DM is sort of asked to do it except that they're doing it primarily with minor characters and villains who trot in, do their thing with the characters, and trot out. Also, the DM has the advantage of pre-planning everything whereas the players have to be reactive. It's hard enough to take in a turn of events in a "what would my character do" way within a reasonable period of time; it's darn near impossible to do in a "what would both my characters, who have different personalities, backgrounds, and attitudes do" way.

In some ways this could make things easier for a DM in that having to stretch oneself by portraying two characters is likely to dilute the player's own attitudes towards the game. This might mean that the DM wouldn't have to worry about dealing so much with an instigator or a storyteller player, for example. And it might be easier for the DM to railroad a campaign with a player who's doing this. Thing is, IMO once you get the hang of DMing I think you find that it's if anything easier to run a non-railroaded campaign and the players get a lot more enjoyment out of things as well. The bits where it's easier for the DM in this case will make it harder for her in the long run.
#12
crossblade
Jul 26, 2009 22:41:08 Compliment the DM after the session. Point out things you liked that the DM did. People are their own biggest enemy, and their own worst critic. Set a positive mindset towards your DM's abilities to help them grow and better their self esteem.
#13
eini
Jul 26, 2009 23:57:41 I Joined a game as a player with a 1st time DM once after 15 years as a DM. Reputation had proceeded me and the guy was fully intimidated. The first few times I suggested things my character might do he allowed it without much consideration. I really didn't think that was a good way to go about relaxing as a player so I came up with this.

I wrote notes (To keep my requests private and not open to outside debate). I emphasized that what I was asking wasn't specifically covered by the rules and that I would definately stand by his ruling decision without complaint. It worked. The DM began to realize that our perpectives might be different but that I wasn't going to hold a negative decision against him.

If your wife is unnaware of a rule then help her locate it. If she reads the rule differently then don't debate it. Let her game flow and give her the respect you feel would be due to an experienced DM.
#14
tourq
Jul 27, 2009 0:11:08
Compliment the DM after the session. Point out things you liked that the DM did. People are their own biggest enemy, and their own worst critic. Set a positive mindset towards your DM's abilities to help them grow and better their self esteem.

This.

Compliment the DM after the session. Point out things you liked that the DM did. People are their own biggest enemy, and their own worst critic. Set a positive mindset towards your DM's abilities to help them grow and better their self esteem.

And this.

Compliment the DM after the session. Point out things you liked that the DM did. People are their own biggest enemy, and their own worst critic. Set a positive mindset towards your DM's abilities to help them grow and better their self esteem.

And this.

It seems like the two of you will not have any problems. Just treat her as a GM should be treated, and help when she asks. Afterwards, thank her for running.
#15
gregt_314
Jul 27, 2009 2:07:18 Throw the rules out the door. Whatever she says the rules are at any given time, go, "Yes, that sounds great!"

Afterwards, talk about what you enjoyed. Say, "I enjoyed it when I wanted to do X and you handled it by saying Y." Say, "It was pretty awesome when I did Z, but did you know there are some rules for that kind of thing right here?"

With only one player it's not important that you be mediated against other players so it doesn't matter if her rules calls make you too tough or too weak, provided she doesn't get you killed.
#16
saintj
Jul 27, 2009 7:56:05 Thanks for all the ideas and suggestions, and please keep them coming. We'll probably be starting this week, so I'll keep the thread updated.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 saintj Jul 25, 2009 18:36:32	My beautiful, lovely, and wonderfully geeky wife is getting ready to DM a game of 4th edition for me, and I am looking for advice on how to make this a great experience for her. A little background, I started gaming in Jr. High, stopped a few years later got married, bought a house, and had kids. Around that time a 3rd edition handbook fell into my hands, and about a week later the starter adventure game was in front of me. Next thing I know I was running a group of 4-8 weekly for about 4 years. Then I got sick. It's been about a year and a half since the group fell apart (no one would DM but me, and I was too tired all the time to do the work). My wife has been wonderful this entire time, even missing two straight Origins. Now she's the gaming itch in my eye, and has agreed to run a 4th edition game for just me at the moment, but if it goes well, she wants to get a new group together for her to DM. She is a great storyteller with a wonderful imagination. She is terrified of the rules though. She's going to be running a modified version H1 Keep on the Shadowfell set in her own home brew world. I'll be running two characters, a Dwarf Cleric and a Halfling Rouge. I have back stories and good motivations for both of them. The advice I want from all the players out there is this. What could a player do (espically in a one player playing multiple characters game) to make DMing as enjoyable as possible? I'm open and listening to any and all advice!
#2 johnnyslick Jul 25, 2009 18:57:02	1. Don't play 2 PCs. 2. Let the game play out the way it will. It's sometimes hard to tell where a new DM will be good and where they'll be otherwise until they've done a couple adventures. The fact that she's using existing material is a good sign (it's usually better to learn how the other aspects of DMing - RPing NPCs, coming up with good descriptions, being able to rule on mechanics in a way that sounds non-arbitrary, consistent, and non-waffley).
#3 Shiftkitty Jul 25, 2009 19:29:54	Be forgiving and patient. Also, get her a DM screen. The tables will be invaluable for speedy reference. If you were a DM before, you should be familiar with changing hats faster than Bartholomew Cubbins, so I personally see no problem with you playing multiple characters, especially if you act them out differently enough. Just don't get into lengthy conversations with yourself.
#4 johnnyslick Jul 25, 2009 19:33:35	Eh, it's not so much an issue of "can he do it" as it is one of "should he needlessly complicate the part of the rookie DM by doing it".
#5 graxith Jul 25, 2009 19:53:56	Eh, it's not so much an issue of "can he do it" as it is one of "should he needlessly complicate the part of the rookie DM by doing it". I think that two might be a little better, 4 would be prefferable [becuase that's what she'll probably have to deal with normally] but it's a little to much for a person to do two let alone four. Although I agree that she should go slowly in my opinion I think that she should try a small group of PCs first [even after her husband gives her an intro] Take everything slow. Don't rush her and help her out IF she asks for it. If she doesn't know a rule then helpfully say that you'll look it up for her [even if you know it, give her some sort of victory.]
#6 turbowombat Jul 25, 2009 20:51:08	#1 rule for not alienating DMs who don't know the rules as well as the players: If there is a rules argument between DM and player, inform the DM that it is their decision, ask for their judgement and accept it absolutely no matter how wrong it is. If the DM is amicable to the possibility that she might be wrong about this call, take note of the incident and look it up after the game or during a break.
#7 saintj Jul 25, 2009 20:56:38	I don't think they'll be much of an issue with me running two characters. I'm used to running multiple NPC's, and I'm used to running my PC's by their characteristics not stats or munchkining. I"ve always been more about developing ny character than stats (even my NPC's). If it would help I can post my two character's back stories. I think that two might be a little better, 4 would be prefferable [becuase that's what she'll probably have to deal with normally] but it's a little to much for a person to do two let alone four. Although I agree that she should go slowly in my opinion I think that she should try a small group of PCs first [even after her husband gives her an intro] Take everything slow. Don't rush her and help her out IF she asks for it. If she doesn't know a rule then helpfully say that you'll look it up for her [even if you know it, give her some sort of victory.]
#8 alric Jul 25, 2009 23:59:25	If you want to be really nice, you can try to go along with any hints she gives you. A lot of DM will try to nudge you along a path. It helps if you follow along that path and don't do anything totally unexpected. Otherwise she might have to make stuff up on the spot, and that makes it more difficult.
#9 Krusk Jul 26, 2009 0:45:08	Depending on how much crap she will put up with from you could do like I did when teaching my girlfriend to DM. Purposfully go as far away from any plot hints as I can. "Oh, a group of bandits are raiding the caravans leaving town? I better not leave town, I wouldnt want to get robbed, thanks for the heads up." "Oh you want me to gaurd your caravan as it leaves? What about the bandits?" "Oh from the bandits? I could do that, but it sounds real dangerous." After defeating bandits "I find a letter detailing the bandit lords plans to attack the town at dawn tommorow? Can I make it back to town in time to warn everyone? So they can fight him?" "His fortress is near by? I better go sneakily so I don't run into him by accident" After arriving "I bet they can handle this bandit army, they have their gaurds. I am going to investigate that plothook you mentioned about some squeeky doors in the inn." "Hey do I get a bonus to that quest? my backstory says my father was a locksmith so I know a bit about squeeky doors?" Basically doing my best to get her improvising and used to actually DMing for my players/our group. Where players run away from every plot, and insist on investigating every minor detail you make up on the spot because someone asked about the weather that day. Although you could consider being nice, and doing things like following obvious plot hooks, and forgiving some inconsistancy with the rules and generic-ness in the plots. Also offer suggestions on monster tactics, and help with encounter design. Help her, but dont do it for her. Things like "I usually do a couple melee guys to each ranged guy as a good ratio" over "You need 3 goblin blades if you want 2 sharpshooterS"
#10 Shiftkitty Jul 26, 2009 11:13:28	Eh, it's not so much an issue of "can he do it" as it is one of "should he needlessly complicate the part of the rookie DM by doing it". Curious, why do you say it will complicate things? (Assuming the player in question can make the voices, mannerisms, etc. different enough to make it clear who is speakig or acting.)
#11 johnnyslick Jul 26, 2009 21:16:50	IMO the primary reason why the players only play one PC is that it is really, really hard to get into the head of more than one character at a time. The DM is sort of asked to do it except that they're doing it primarily with minor characters and villains who trot in, do their thing with the characters, and trot out. Also, the DM has the advantage of pre-planning everything whereas the players have to be reactive. It's hard enough to take in a turn of events in a "what would my character do" way within a reasonable period of time; it's darn near impossible to do in a "what would both my characters, who have different personalities, backgrounds, and attitudes do" way. In some ways this could make things easier for a DM in that having to stretch oneself by portraying two characters is likely to dilute the player's own attitudes towards the game. This might mean that the DM wouldn't have to worry about dealing so much with an instigator or a storyteller player, for example. And it might be easier for the DM to railroad a campaign with a player who's doing this. Thing is, IMO once you get the hang of DMing I think you find that it's if anything easier to run a non-railroaded campaign and the players get a lot more enjoyment out of things as well. The bits where it's easier for the DM in this case will make it harder for her in the long run.
#12 crossblade Jul 26, 2009 22:41:08	Compliment the DM after the session. Point out things you liked that the DM did. People are their own biggest enemy, and their own worst critic. Set a positive mindset towards your DM's abilities to help them grow and better their self esteem.
#13 eini Jul 26, 2009 23:57:41	I Joined a game as a player with a 1st time DM once after 15 years as a DM. Reputation had proceeded me and the guy was fully intimidated. The first few times I suggested things my character might do he allowed it without much consideration. I really didn't think that was a good way to go about relaxing as a player so I came up with this. I wrote notes (To keep my requests private and not open to outside debate). I emphasized that what I was asking wasn't specifically covered by the rules and that I would definately stand by his ruling decision without complaint. It worked. The DM began to realize that our perpectives might be different but that I wasn't going to hold a negative decision against him. If your wife is unnaware of a rule then help her locate it. If she reads the rule differently then don't debate it. Let her game flow and give her the respect you feel would be due to an experienced DM.
#14 tourq Jul 27, 2009 0:11:08	Compliment the DM after the session. Point out things you liked that the DM did. People are their own biggest enemy, and their own worst critic. Set a positive mindset towards your DM's abilities to help them grow and better their self esteem. This. Compliment the DM after the session. Point out things you liked that the DM did. People are their own biggest enemy, and their own worst critic. Set a positive mindset towards your DM's abilities to help them grow and better their self esteem. And this. Compliment the DM after the session. Point out things you liked that the DM did. People are their own biggest enemy, and their own worst critic. Set a positive mindset towards your DM's abilities to help them grow and better their self esteem. And this. It seems like the two of you will not have any problems. Just treat her as a GM should be treated, and help when she asks. Afterwards, thank her for running.
#15 gregt_314 Jul 27, 2009 2:07:18	Throw the rules out the door. Whatever she says the rules are at any given time, go, "Yes, that sounds great!" Afterwards, talk about what you enjoyed. Say, "I enjoyed it when I wanted to do X and you handled it by saying Y." Say, "It was pretty awesome when I did Z, but did you know there are some rules for that kind of thing right here?" With only one player it's not important that you be mediated against other players so it doesn't matter if her rules calls make you too tough or too weak, provided she doesn't get you killed.
#16 saintj Jul 27, 2009 7:56:05	Thanks for all the ideas and suggestions, and please keep them coming. We'll probably be starting this week, so I'll keep the thread updated.