Here are three examples in tonight’s game with a little bit of background attached:
#1) After pulling a prank on a newbie N.P.C. joining the guild. The N.P.C. gets scared and runs off. The characters get worried and go chasing him down. They find the N.P.C. running back toward them and away from Mega-Monster, that our second level characters would die fighting. D.M. tells us to run back to the guild, so we do. We tell the guild master about Mega-Monster and spend a large majority of the time watching Super-N.P.C.'s beat up Mega-Monster. (Any player trying to fight gets shooed back into hiding to watch the fight.) Yes, at second level people in the guild are going to be better then you, but watching these better-people fight when your character is not even allowed to throw a stone at Mega-Monster is just annoying.
#2) Amongst the Super-N.P.C.'s fighting Mega-Monster is a twelve year old boy that the P.C.'s have formally had a run-in with. He is now a Super-N.P.C. When we complain the D.M. tells us that the twelve year old is a lot older then he appears. We can't help but ask 'How, when the boy is human?' The D.M. informs us that Super-N.P.C. twelve year old is an ancient master vampire... Uh, huh. We never noticed this why? Oh, and aren't we supposed to be the good guys fighting the evil guys? Super-N.P.C. twelve year old is an ancient master vampire. Come on we would have noticed if the boy was a vampire the last time P.C.-name got into a fight with him! Fine, you noticed before... *sigh*
#3) We come back in after burning the corpse of Mega-Monster. The only thing that we were allowed to do. Of course only one Super-N.P.C. is even wounded after all of this, and nothing serious at that. None of us felt like checking on Super-N.P.C. after all, he was back at the guild hall getting medical help right, and he is a Super-N.P.C. so what could possibly go wrong? D.M. didn't say anything about this. We tried to act all tough because at least we hadn't been closed up in the guild hall like this one particular N.P.C. that a lot of our characters have already gotten into a fist fights with and won. (Which we all thought was an improvement since the last game that this D.M. ran, at least one N.P.C. lower then us, Yay!) D.M. gets agitated now and tells us that this one particular N.P.C. can kick all of our butts... (We point out we have already beaten him in fights.) "Did you?" Says the D.M. "Or did he let you win?"
Arrgh!
So how do I gently but seriously get this D.M. to stop thinking that every N.P.C. in the world has to be better then our characters. I have already tried the isn't the story supposed to be for the characters thing on him... His answer: "You all did end up saving the world last time didn't you?" Well, yes we did, but we all felt lower then shoe scum while doing it.
Help!
The best approach to this problem (and it is a HUGE, disgusting problem) is to have all the players tell the DM what's wrong. Concisely state what exactly is wrong with the game - in this case, the players constantly being bludgeoned with the idea they aren't the main characters - without getting emotional.
If this doesn't work, you could have the party rebel and leave civilized areas. Though, knowing this DMing-style, you'll probably have an unkillable tag-along NPC or run into a super-powered recluse NPC...
The issue is not whether the game is "supposed to be about the players" or anything like that. It is fundamentally that the players are not having fun. If the DM wants to run a game for an audience, unfortunately he would have to find an audience other than the players he has now. Don't be confrontational, but tell him your concerns and reasons.
If you are playing 4th edition, suggest he reread the section on NPCs (or the entire book really).
If you are playing 3.5 edition, suggest he read the Dungeon Master's Guide 2. It's good for starting DMs, and has some mechanics in there too, like templates and items.
Most of the advice in either book is applicable to games in general regardless of the rules though.
If a book is lacking, well, it is that time of the year...
... At least most DMs only have a few Mary Sues....sounds like your entire world is full of them...
... Concisely state what exactly is wrong with the game - in this case, the players constantly being bludgeoned with the idea they aren't the main characters - without getting emotional...
...If this doesn't work, you could have the party rebel and leave civilized areas. Though, knowing this DMing-style, you'll probably have an unkillable tag-along NPC or run into a super-powered recluse NPC...
As a D.M. myself I know Mary Sues can be important at times, but I keep mine out of the main foray. They are there for information gathering, sage advice, and in rare circumstances rescuing the characters when I've let the P.C.'s get into something that they knew was way over their heads but wanted to try it anyway. A world full of them however is way too many.
We can try again to talk to him. What I really want to do is find a way to stress the point that not N.P.C.'s have too be great. Some of the best N.P.C.'s in my opinion would make incredibly lousy hero's.
He did make a tag-a-long. I convinced him to make her an N.P.C./P.C. and that she needed a regular old character sheet just like the rest of us... It worked for the most part at least. I like the idea of us all deciding to take off out of the Power-Mob N.P.C. area. I think that may help a lot.
Or how about having your PC's become NPC's so they can be super and the rest of you can go to the movies while he plays with himself. When you get back he can tell you all what happen. :rolleye2:
The first is where the DM lets the PCs have free choices but makes delicious looking hooks for the plot that they have thought up.
With the second the DM still allows the players to be center stage but sucks at the hooks, so the DM must railroad in order to see his/her story come to fruition.
The third is done most often (when the DM is new) like being center stage and/or doesn't have much trust in the PCs to fallow his/her story.
If the DM is the type that likes to be the center of attention then it may be hard to break him of this habit. If the DM feels like he has a lack of control then it may be a bit easier.
It seems as if the DM wants to use big bad monsters and have epic fights. If that is the case then maybe the DM should allow everyone to level up their characters.
Other advice would be for him to read the DM guides. The 4e DMG does a really good job explaining the DMs role within the game.
You could always PUT YOU FEMALE FOOT DOWN, and politely talk to him about the many different concerns that you have. You could possibly have him observe how other DMs play when he is a PC and for him to be a bit more perceptive of the PCs when he is DMing.
Other than this I've got nothing.
I It is fundamentally that the players are not having fun.
Exactly. We are playing 4th edition. I'll suggest to him that he might want to read the D.M. part again.
I did manage to point something out to him the game before this one, so it's kind of like a two step forward and one step back thing with him.
My first level warlock almost brought down a completly useless N.P.C. of 6th level, that had tried to kill him in session one of the game. (I'm a battle tactic monster when necessary.) This 62 hp character was down to 3 hp when the D.M. had the character suddenly 'teleport' away. (Not something N.P.C. race or N.P.C.'s class was capable of.)
Before getting mad I asked the D.M: "Is this character vital to your game?"
The answer was no.
So then I asked:"Then why take away my characters victory over this guy at the last minute, especially when the spell I had on him would have killed him next round before I even made my next move if he fails his save?"
The D.M. stared at me open mouthed: "I let you fight him because I didn't think your character could kill this guy alone!"
Me: "But, he is not a vital character, I can understand saving a vital character, did you have more plans for him?"
D.M: "No." Rolls dice. Frowns. "He failed his save, congratulations your first level character just killed a sixth level character."
(It might sound like a snooty ending to the fight, and yep, the victory felt a bit hallow, but seriously this was major progress. Last game we didn't get to kill an N.P.C. with a name until we were level ten!)
Or how about having your PC's become NPC's so they can be super and the rest of you can go to the movies while he plays with himself. When you get back he can tell you all what happen.
I actually did that at one point last game... "Here you run my character, you seem to have an idea of what you seem to think he should be doing during this fight. In the mean time I'm going to get some coffee, then come in and see my fight is going." ... and I did!
My character was rolled up as a highly acrobatic Jedi. Who boringly spent the fight slashing with his light saber while standing on the ground. While the D.M.'s N.P.C. did all kinds of aero-dynamic leaps... at least I didn't have to deal with it.
For the most part he seems a bit power happy.
The third is done most often (when the DM is new) like being center stage and/or doesn't have much trust in the PCs to fallow his/her story.
This one. He is very new at being a D.M. so I am hoping he will learn.
You could always PUT YOU FEMALE FOOT DOWN, and politely talk to him about the many different concerns that you have. You could possibly have him observe how other DMs play when he is a PC and for him to be a bit more perceptive of the PCs when he is DMing.
Planning this one, I wasn't sure it would work but I was hoping so. It's good to see that it was a decent idea after all. I have been D.M.-ing games for over ten years now, but I never thought that I would have to teach a D.M. how to D.M. while being a player... so, I thought if I started a game up... Thanks I feel more confident about doing this now.
Constructive criticism in a friendly manner usually goes farther in getting someone to do something you want them to.
Constructive criticism in a friendly manner usually goes farther in getting someone to do something you want them to.
I would go more with submissive manipulation and/or planting of ideas.
As a D.M. myself I know Mary Sues can be important at times, but I keep mine out of the main foray. They are there for information gathering, sage advice, and in rare circumstances rescuing the characters when I've let the P.C.'s get into something that they knew was way over their heads but wanted to try it anyway. A world full of them however is way too many.
We can try again to talk to him. What I really want to do is find a way to stress the point that not N.P.C.'s have too be great. Some of the best N.P.C.'s in my opinion would make incredibly lousy hero's.
He did make a tag-a-long. I convinced him to make her an N.P.C./P.C. and that she needed a regular old character sheet just like the rest of us... It worked for the most part at least. I like the idea of us all deciding to take off out of the Power-Mob N.P.C. area. I think that may help a lot.
As a writer, I am certain to make sure that none of my characters are Mary Sues. Powerful NPCs, on the other hand, are very important sometimes. In my campaign I have one such NPC leading the party on a particularly complicated journey that required his advanced magic. This then becomes a plot device, because he takes on the end boss, who is still far too powerful for the PCs to take on at this point, and sacrifices himself so they can escape. The PCs have now met the end boss and hate him, because the NPC, who was the most amazing person EVER (and the players agree with this), was killed by him.
Anyways... maybe show this to your DM to give him ideas for how to play powerful NPCs properly. Because if the world makes any sense, powerful NPCs will exist, and just like special rules apply to them in terms of subtextual gameplay, so do special rules apply to them in roleplaying.
I congratulate you that your NPC was believable enough to be viewed so favorably by your players.
Pull him aside and give him some hints. Tell him to go write a short story about his NPC's if he wants to see his characters be awesome, but to let the PC's have the limelight. Tell him that from DM to DM so that he doesn't alienate the players.
At this point, you might as well be playing a 1st level farmer.
2°.Perhaps he favors life beyond anything else (and he might want YOU to try a Paladin character).
3°.Perhaps your group, which is warrior-type, wonders (with a little anxiety) what a world without war would be like.
4°.Perhaps your group is really anxious of the "revenge" of the Very Superior Beings ruling their association...
Alternatively have him sit in on a session you DM where he doesn't play, but sits besides you and sees/learns how a real DM does it; an Apprenticeship if you will.
1. the DM wants games of a higher power level than exists with pcs even at 2nd level.
2. the monster mega monster trotted out to chase the pcs was too overpowered, and needs to be scaled back to what the pcs can handle, not what the guild senior vets can handle. This stems back to point # 1.
3. The DM in this case doesn't understand (as others have said) that it is the PCs story, not that of the NPCs with the pcs watching.
4. The DM doesn't yet grasp the idea that high level things can be beaten if the players are lucky and smart.
5. Yes, the DM has too much ego invested in NPCs.
Okay i think the following needs to happen, however it can be set up:
A) the party needs to be in a wilderness area, on their own, in the wilds, relying on only themselves.
B) The PCs clearly state to the DM, OOC : "We do not want to be a part of any NPCs, because they are stealing our story. We want to have dramatic conflict where we play the PCs, the DM plays the NPCs we are fighting against.
C) The DM needs to perhaps play for a while in a game that is properly run, as he is not yet really ready to run a game to i guess the commonly accepted standards. Thus the established DM teaches him by example.
D) The DM needs to re-read the 4e DMG, 3.5 DMG II, and some bookslike D&D for dummies, and Dungewonmastering for dummies and such, again as part of the training / breaking in.
E) I think that the DM isn't open to listening to anything other than direct confrontation. So i'd emphasize those points, as you have, I totally agree.
It seems to me that it is not a case of tweaking the game, it is rebuilding the DM and the game from the ground up.
Re-emphasize by specific ooc talks with the DM that the game is not fun, when the players are sitting there, but not allowed to play, participate in vital choices or affect the storyline.
Good luck. I applaud your efforts.
Long ago, when i was a new DM i did stuff like this. I had people sit me down, and tell it to me straight, and I was ****** off, but soon (after a period of months) became a much better, well read, and well practiced DM because of it.
Hopefully, your DM will rise to the challenge, but like a carpenter, he needs a foundation and basic knowledge of the tools and materials at hand, before he can make a birdhouse, let along a multistory building.
to be honnest I used to use high power NPCs on occasion when I used to DM 1st ed games but only as occasional "guardians" for PCs such as when exploring dangerous dungeons (and said charicter was my old charicter from when I was a PC so there was no need to work out how he got involved with the charicters)
the options I can see are either....
A. talk your DM into scaling down the chalenges (no mega-monsters) and allow you to have more of a say in the course of a game. hey if you die, you make a new charicter it's all part of the game right.
B. ask your DM to maybe allow you to make a higher lever charicter (say everyone starts as a level 5 PC for example) that way he can have a game with bigger monsters and your charicters have a chance to win the fight, but you don't start at too high a level where you can wipe the floor with everything you encounter
C. maybe ask him to allow someone else as a DM for a game or two, or on a rota (I used to do that when I played it full time and it often added variaty as diffrent DMs had diffrent ways of making adventures).
it won't hurt just to have a brainstorming session, which was something I used to do with my old group after each game to discuss what they liked and didn't like, unfortunatly with my old group they liked the hack and slash dungeon crawl with lots of tresure and big powerful beasties to kill while I often liked the mind games, puzzles, traps and storyline meaning we often had to compromise as to what we did. though funny thing was their favourate adventure was one with a "kill limit" where if they killed too many enemy one or more of them would get trapped which caused them to think about how they handled enemies
I see a few things here, pretty clearly. Thanks for the good description.
1. the DM wants games of a higher power level than exists with pcs even at 2nd level.
2. the monster mega monster trotted out to chase the pcs was too overpowered, and needs to be scaled back to what the pcs can handle, not what the guild senior vets can handle. This stems back to point # 1.
3. The DM in this case doesn't understand (as others have said) that it is the PCs story, not that of the NPCs with the pcs watching.
4. The DM doesn't yet grasp the idea that high level things can be beaten if the players are lucky and smart.
5. Yes, the DM has too much ego invested in NPCs.
Okay i think the following needs to happen, however it can be set up:
A) the party needs to be in a wilderness area, on their own, in the wilds, relying on only themselves.
B) The PCs clearly state to the DM, OOC : "We do not want to be a part of any NPCs, because they are stealing our story. We want to have dramatic conflict where we play the PCs, the DM plays the NPCs we are fighting against.
C) The DM needs to perhaps play for a while in a game that is properly run, as he is not yet really ready to run a game to i guess the commonly accepted standards. Thus the established DM teaches him by example.
D) The DM needs to re-read the 4e DMG, 3.5 DMG II, and some bookslike D&D for dummies, and Dungewonmastering for dummies and such, again as part of the training / breaking in.
E) I think that the DM isn't open to listening to anything other than direct confrontation. So i'd emphasize those points, as you have, I totally agree.
It seems to me that it is not a case of tweaking the game, it is rebuilding the DM and the game from the ground up.
Re-emphasize by specific ooc talks with the DM that the game is not fun, when the players are sitting there, but not allowed to play, participate in vital choices or affect the storyline.
Good luck. I applaud your efforts.
Long ago, when i was a new DM i did stuff like this. I had people sit me down, and tell it to me straight, and I was ****** off, but soon (after a period of months) became a much better, well read, and well practiced DM because of it.
Hopefully, your DM will rise to the challenge, but like a carpenter, he needs a foundation and basic knowledge of the tools and materials at hand, before he can make a birdhouse, let along a multistory building.
Thank you! Wow, that was all really awesome advice. I am definitely going to follow those guidelines in helping him become a better D.M. because like a said they are really great story-lines, it's just the way that they a set up that makes everyone go crazy.
I first will show to you Marvel Super Heroes Adventure Game SAGA sytem's "Running a series":
"nine archetypal series styles":
1.rock-'em-sock-'em
2.street-level
3.explorative
4.idealistic
5.pathos
6.battle-scarred (there's a photo of the dark phoenix)
7.future-past
...
now DMG 4E (sorry I havn't DMG 2 3.5)
(sorry I (perhaps (also)) missed the point)
7 ways to NPC creation
:surrender
myne version was:
1. birth world (from Hinduism mythology)
2. skill enhancers (from Champions 4E rpg)
3. 6 senses (the 5 common + the mental sense)
4. 6 perfections (from Buddhism)
5. engines (theorically there should be 6, I know only 5 of them which were named luck,confidence,combativity,merit,ingenuity; as there is a lack here don't follow this path if you're from world 1 aka Brutes)
6. cults (6 cults, that you translate hazardously with famous AD&D 6 stats, as if Strength had something to do with "imprécision")
7. stars (6 stars, alertness(CE),independance(NE),justice(LE),freedom(CG),nobility(LG),coolness(NG))
an example (my own NPC definite sheet):
1.Brutes
brutes world gives you 5 builtin stats, which are:
traveler
ear
*WARNING* "concentration"
"effort" (that you translated with Constitution) aka karma-yoga
alertness
2.scientist
3."taste"
4.enthousiasm
5."adresse" (that you translated with Dexterity)
6.merit (as I call it)
7.Nobility
the message above will sure lead to confusion (to some folks at least):ingenu ity is NOT what I have written in my post;
I have written ingenuity (that is, without blank between "ingenu" and "ity");
is this computer programming (under script language mode ??)look at the nine playable levels within Civ 4:
1."colon"
2."chef tribal"
3.battle-scarred
4."régent"
5.prince
6.king
7.emperor
8.immortal
9.divinity
relative to Marvel, Jean is "only" on Civ 4 Mode 3
:embarrass I personally give my preference to Sir Stan
oh sorry I did forgot mention Sanity Fair Dalaï Lama XIV (ehm )ohf... beyond level 7th-type encounter, there are:
8 comic relief
9 dirty;
now say it again:
1 hack and slash (here in France we have 36000 tribal kings)
2 regency
3 wilderness
4 religious affairs
5 quests
6 battle-scarred veterans ( (c) Angband))
7 divinities
8 comic relief (see you in Italy)
9 dirty movies
take a note that EVEN the great Sid Meyer is like a toy in the dirty hands of Sir Stan:
look at the nine playable levels within Civ 4:
1."colon"
2."chef tribal"
3.battle-scarred
4."régent"
5.prince
6.king
7.emperor
8.immortal
9.divinity
relative to Marvel, Jean is "only" on Civ 4 Mode 3
:embarrass I personally give my preference to Sir Stan
ohf... beyond level 7th-type encounter, there are:
8 comic relief
9 dirty;
now say it again:
1 hack and slash (here in France we have 36000 tribal kings)
2 regency
3 wilderness
4 religious affairs
5 quests
6 battle-scarred veterans ( (c) Angband))
7 divinities
8 comic relief (see you in Italy)
9 dirty movies
... Can someone help this guy learn English? This is the second post today I've seen, and I still can't figure out what he means.
eeh serry it's hopeless...:embarrass you can't possibly learn english in one year or two
(un gugusse sans nom qui passe à la télé sur F2 (Ruquier) me demande de lui tirer la langue:P )
Jean is for Jean Grey (look at the OP photo)
I'm all for a DM occasionally reminding low-level characters that there are things and people far more powerful than themselves in the world, but to actually stop the game to run a combat against himself when 2-3 sentences of description would do is so far past acceptable DMing that I don't even know what to think.
Take time to remind him that he took something that could have been a nice adventure hook and turned it into a complete waste of an hour or so of game time. What if drawing that monster back to the guild opened a passage into the mountains where the PCs could have found a level-appropriate adventure that was blocked off previously? What if the monster's nest contained eggs (now conveniently unguarded) that might hatch and become a new menace if not taken care of by the players? When the players get there, they find some level-appropriate demonic minions trying to steal the eggs to raise monsters to train for their own purposes. Once dispatched, they leave clues pointing back to the campaign's BBEG, or introduce a new one.
I agree with the others who say that you need to talk to him to curb this behavior, and perhaps one of the best things to say might be to point out where his penchant for dramatic flair might work for, rather than against, the PCs enjoyment of the session.
However he's making the mistake of not putting in multi-tiered encounters so that action is happening all over the place.
For a recent movie reference I would point out "Cloverfield"
the protagonists are the goofy people at the party
-It has a Giant monster named clover field- The military (ie high level people) fight him and is largely cinematic at a distance using the big guns (Tanks/helicopters/missiles).
-It also has ravenous bug monsters the size of Dogs- Marines and some cops fight these things
-And it has civilian level-riots/environmental issues like fire/flood/building collapses
I could easily imagine a game being run with the players at any one of those levels and everyone having a good time, as long as they work on the part that would be a suitable challenge. Sure if the civilians fight clover field they become pancakes, but he's still cool in the background and they can absolutely affect plenty of secondary and tertiary problems (like the girlfriend the lead man tries to rescue).
---
If you could talk him into something along those lines he could still have his bad ass epic fights, but the players would be able to have fun also. Maybe there are a number of smaller monsters or cultists who worship the thing attacking the local villagers while the "real" heroes are distracted. You would still get to see "Wakazashi Yojimbo" cut a building in half to crush the "Evergaunt the Horror from Beyond" and see how totally bad ass he is, however that way you could feel a little bad ass yourself.
--
The alternative is that the next time an NPC says not to fight, tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine, then do whatever you wanted to, maybe your character dies, but at least you did -something-. And of course don't forget to ask for your -equal share of the XP if you get raised (after all your still entitled to XP if the encounter was a success, even if you died during it) That should be enough to level you a couple times :P
all in all, my option for you is this: if he wants an uber NPC, make it somebody you guys WILL kill as part of the story. He'll be prepared for the inevitable, and you guys will have the fun a gaming group should.
In your discussion, you need to tell him what you expect to when you play, what would be fun for you and what he is doing that is not fun. Bring up things such as your characters' having some impact on important encounters and have some influence on the events in the campaign.
Also, ask him what he expects out of the players. It seems like what the player's idea of how a game is supposed to go is different from what the DM expects. Find out what makes the game fun for him and what does not.
You need to let him know that you want to have fun, but not at his expense. He should also have fun, but not at your expense either. The ultimate goal for everyone, DM and players, should be for everyone to have fun. The game does not solely belong to the DM. It belongs to everyone and everyone needs to have fun and make it fun for everyone else around the table.
Good luck. Also, you can ask him to come to these boards for advice as well. There is one for DM's where he can ask for advice if he is not sure how to accomodate some of the players' wishes.
Is this DM a big enough person to listen to people give him constructive criticism and will he be willing to change?
Often times people with the kind of ego that he seemingly has are not capable of changing their ways.
Never place a player in a no-win scenario. No NPC, trap, lock, or riddle should ever be unbeatable by any PC.
I've recently had a game with a demon in it. The demon however, didn't kill the players and ultimately could be defeated (avoided) by solving a mystery/riddle.
This was pretty cool.
But there was a way to defeat it that was painfully obvious from the get-go. We knew all along that something triggered the appearance of the demon and it was clear that to defeat this obstacle, that riddle had to be solved.
Even these situations should be used sparingly, however.
Any DM that consistently has things around the PCs that are more powerful than they are is breaking the first and most important rule of being a DM. Do not place things in the game that the characters cannot overcome.
It's hard enough on the PCs to get over the obstacles when they have a reasonable chance of doing so (because they don't always succeed). Never put up an obstacle that they cannot overcome.
I believe this advice is present almost verbatim in the 4.0 books as well.
As others have said, I'd simply talk to the DM in question, or point him to this thread. I think many have articulated the issue very well, as did you yourself, pheynixx.
I could easily imagine a game being run with the players at any one of those levels and everyone having a good time, as long as they work on the part that would be a suitable challenge. Sure if the civilians fight clover field they become pancakes, but he's still cool in the background and they can absolutely affect plenty of secondary and tertiary problems (like the girlfriend the lead man tries to rescue).
Our current DM did a cloverfield type situation in a 3.5 game once and it worked out very well, although in his case it was an excuse to kill off the most powerful NPC we knew for plot reasons.
The major druid camp was attacked by some epic level giant plant monster along with a lot of lower level creatures and the head druid of the order went out to fight the big monster while our party of about 6th level characters took on the other invaders of the area. The big duid/plant monster fight was still going with both near death and we had finished taking out all the minor enemies so my druid decides to be brave and go help out since he has one anti plant spell left in his arsenal (I think it was dehydrate or some other spell that did con damage to plant creatures). DM takes pity on me and says go ahead since the only way this spell will do anything is if he rolls a 1 on his save and that is exactly what he did so my druid all of a sudden is a hero to his order for getting in the kill shot. Head druid still died from the wounds he got in the battle, but it worked real well for the plot and my character all of a sudden had earned a lot more respect among his peers.
Our previous DM tended to insert characters he had played from previous campaigns that most of had not played in and made them the big NPC heros that let our characters tag along. That sort of DMing is the reason he is no longer our DM.
Never place a player in a no-win scenario. No NPC, trap, lock, or riddle should ever be unbeatable by any PC.
Any DM that consistently has things around the PCs that are more powerful than they are is breaking the first and most important rule of being a DM. Do not place things in the game that the characters cannot overcome.
It's hard enough on the PCs to get over the obstacles when they have a reasonable chance of doing so (because they don't always succeed). Never put up an obstacle that they cannot overcome.
Unless the point of the game is horror, as in Call of Cthulhu.
Maybe Most of the time. CoC DMs know how to run it, and PCs should never escape.
The reason I make my NPC's more powerful than my players, is because they're all pompous, and a while back, they decided to just start killing every character then could get their crubby little hands on.
So i said hey, why not do the same thing to them? Yeah, I know, DM vengeance, never good, blah blah... but really, killing off every one of my characters shows no respect for me, or for the effort I put into writing my campaign.
I know this is pretty much a completely different situation, but that might be one explanation for why the DM does that.
Sounds kinda like me.
The reason I make my NPC's more powerful than my players, is because they're all pompous, and a while back, they decided to just start killing every character then could get their crubby little hands on.
So i said hey, why not do the same thing to them? Yeah, I know, DM vengeance, never good, blah blah... but really, killing off every one of my characters shows no respect for me, or for the effort I put into writing my campaign.
I know this is pretty much a completely different situation, but that might be one explanation for why the DM does that.
I've run into that. Arrogant players.
I gave them a kobold dungeon. A big one. So when they saw the 20 kobolds out front and went to hack them up... Super. They won that battle.
It was the other 1500 they weren't ready for.
But they still weren't overpowered by the world around them, except by their own invitation for hordes of things to nettle them to death.
We (all of the players) sat down with the DM and asked to see the NPC/GMPC character sheets and a few representative stat blocks from baddies.
The NPC/GMPC (we had three with us at all times) were all rolled and ended up with scores equivalent to 50ish points if they had been built. We negotiated with the DM to increase our stats by 8 points and got the NPCs/GMPCs gone except for brief visits (mostly during downtime for training - never during combat).
This arrangement let the GM keep the badass baddies and NPCs/GMPCs but the PCs became the focus of the story.
We also encouraged the GM to write stories about what the NPCs were doing while we were off fighting in other parts of the world. It kept them out of our game but they were still "involved" and "being badass". They were emailed to us and our characters knew the stories IC, sort of like word of mouth stories being passed around about important happenings on other continents.
We also encouraged the GM to write stories about what the NPCs were doing while we were off fighting in other parts of the world. It kept them out of our game but they were still "involved" and "being badass". They were emailed to us and our characters knew the stories IC, sort of like word of mouth stories being passed around about important happenings on other continents.
That's actually a really good idea...I have my npcs vaguely mention what they've been doing while the pcs are off adventuring and what not, usually only going into huge detail if they either ask or it's plot essential, but I think it would really immerse the players more into the world if they had little stories to read, and if nothing else it's something to do whenever I have random downtime irl.
We (all of the players) sat down with the DM and asked to see the NPC/GMPC character sheets and a few representative stat blocks from baddies.
That's actually a really good idea. Just do a quick comparison to alert him to the problem, show some evidence of it, and let him ponder on it a bit.
Good idea, Kistra.