Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 vadyr Apr 24, 2009 22:43:11	So i am a beginning rogue who is playing 3.5 forgotten realms. I was just wanting some help or ideas for trying to start differnet cons or schemes to stump my Dm.... Any suggestions? i.e. breaking into a rich mans house and finding his deed and forging a signiture to make him give his house to me.... then kicking him out
#2 october_darkness Apr 25, 2009 0:15:17	.... And you want other people to help you out? You're being a storykiller, rather than being a player.
#3 Thyrwyn Apr 25, 2009 0:55:58	This isn't a competition between you and your DM - 'cause it isn't one you can win. If you and the other players want to play as con-men and thieves out for personal gain - talk to your DM and ask him to run that kind of game. He wants to have fun, too - trying to trick him or outsmart him (or the other players) within the game will only tick them in real life. If you're cool with that - why are you playing with these people in the first place?
#4 entropy_judge Apr 25, 2009 12:42:41	I was just wanting some help or ideas for trying to start differnet cons or schemes to stump my Dm.... Call the cops anonymously from a pay phone and tell them your DM's a drug dealer. That'll stump him for sure, and you've conned the cops. Disclaimer: This is probably illegal. Don't do it. If you do, I hope you get caught.
#5 vadyr Apr 25, 2009 20:16:10	Guys im not really trying to stump him just need help with ideas that are avaiable in the game. This is the first time i have ever play dnd and i was just curious what i could or couldnt do
#6 daigotsurezan Apr 25, 2009 20:20:18	Guys im not really trying to stump him just need help with ideas that are avaiable in the game. This is the first time i have ever play dnd and i was just curious what i could or couldnt do You can do anything, basically. The same way you, the player, can "do anything" in the real world. Some stuff is easy, some stuff is hard... I mean, seriously, it's open-ended. I don't know how to better describe it than that.
#7 vadyr Apr 25, 2009 20:24:07	Ok cool i guess i was just wonder what kind of cons other players have ran in past campaigns
#8 october_darkness Apr 26, 2009 0:14:39	I've never ran cons in a game. I'm guessing you're from a different country? I can see the way you type. Either that, or you're young.
#9 vadyr Apr 26, 2009 12:20:52	I am not young nor am I from another country, I am just new to this game. I was just curious of different ways people play their rogues. WHat ability routes they went, what prestiges they used, and so on. I am just new to the game, thats all
#10 october_darkness Apr 26, 2009 12:51:02	Ok, understood. If you want to find out ways to "combat" the DM, then I suggest reading Knights of the Dinner Table. It can be found either at a comics, or a gaming store. It's not only funny, but they have helpful roleplaying hints in the back of the issues. They generally help you with ideas for character templates, etc. etc. Good luck in your gaming.
#11 entropy_judge Apr 26, 2009 12:55:49	WHat ability routes they went, what prestiges they used, and so on. I am just new to the game, thats all And that is a completely different question than the one you started this thread with. The first effectively translates to "How can I screw over the DM and/or the other players?" The second is "What does a good Thief look like?" As for your age/nationality: frankly, you type like someone who's either ESL or too young to have gotten hold of grammar classes, which is what October_Darkness was probably referring to. As for abilities (note that I don't play 3.5, so I may be somewhat off): You'll want a good DEX - you don't need to 18 it, but it wouldn't hurt. Your next two scores are probably INT and CON - the former for the skill points and the latter in case a monster decides to eat the squishy members first. STR you can probably get by with no more than 12, if that - most of your damage is going to be coming from backstab (and hopefully crit modifiers), rather than straight damage, so STR isn't that useful. CHA is only really necessary if you're going to be a party face or a pseudo mage with UMD, WIS is fairly useless to you, except for Will saves (which are going to be bad anyway); it's pretty much a "do what you want." Since Thieves ae DEX-based, Weapon Finesse is almost a must-have (the only times it's no a must-have are if you're planning on going into a PrC/Multiclass where you aren't going to be using Light weapons a whole lot), and you'll probably not be too disappointed by going TWF as well. That's about the limit to my general knowledge, hopefully someone who knows more will read past your first post if you want more, or you could go to the ChaOps board and look for some builds there.
#12 Mad_Jack Apr 26, 2009 15:18:31	For a 3.5 rogue, there are three main abilities - DEX, INT, and CHA. Dexterity is obviously the most important, and should always be maximized - you can never have enough, so investing in magic items that pump it is always advisable. It affects your AC, your Reflex save, your ranged attacks, and many of your most important skills, such as Hide and Move Silently. Also, if you take the Weapon Finesse feat, it will affect your to-hit chances with melee attacks as well (assuming you're using standard rogue weapons). Although a rogue can benefit from a good Strength, Constitution or Wisdom, they're abilities that you can usually get by with having an average score in - depending, of course, on what kind of rogue you're playing. For a rogue's second-highest stat, it's almost always a toss-up between Intelligence and Charisma. Intelligence is usually the next most important, because it gives you extra skill points and affects a few of your "secondary" skills, i.e., the more situational stuff like Appraise and Knowledge skills. Whether you're a combat rogue maximized for damage, a skill-monkey built to be the party's Swiss army knife, or a frontman with maxed out Diplomacy and Bluff your Intelligence is going to be, if not your secondary stat, then almost definitely your third - just because a rogue's skills are what flavors the character and you get the most bang for your buck by getting more skill points per level. One additional skill point per level often means you have one more maxed-out skill on your list. Charisma doesn't affect any of your saves, your skill points, or your AC, so if you're not A) making a social character or B) planning to Bluff in combat to get Sneak Attack or C) planning to max out Use Magic Device to play back-up spellcaster, then you don't necessarily have to have a significant Charisma score. It may be more advantageous to have 13's or 14's in two other scores rather than try to have a 16 in Charisma. If you plan to mostly be a "face", which you seem to be, I'd put your highest score in Dexterity and your next highest in Charisma. Your third highest should be Intelligence, in order to keep as many of your social skills maxed out as possible. You'll want to max out Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate. You should keep your Use Magic Device ranks high as well, as this will allow you access to magic items that let you cast mind-affecting charms and enchantments later on in the game. Skills you might want to put a few points in are Gather Information, Disguise, Appraise, and maybe Forgery. The typical "rogue" skills to max out or at least keep fairly high are Move Silently, Hide and Tumble. (five ranks in Jump will give you a +2 bonus to Tumble as well.) Disable Device is very helpful, as are Search and to a slightly lesser extent Listen and Spot. Sleight of Hand can be fairly useful to a face character in some situations. As far as feats, armor and weapons... Rogues don't get many feats, so choose carefully. It may actually be inadvisable to take a feat that improves your social skills (your main focus) over something that helps round out other areas of your character. Dodge and Mobility are good. They get you clear of sticky situations when the talking didn't go so well. If you think you'll be getting into melee combat often, invest in Weapon Finesse at 3rd level. Adding Dex to your to-hit roll instead of Str on melee attacks is almost a no-brainer. If you plan to be a ranged character, take Weapon Focus instead, or possibly one of the other ranged weapon feats. Combat Expertise is also helpful. It's also the prerequisite for Improved Feint, which may be worth taking with your maxed-out Bluff skill if you plan to go into melee. Your weapons should probably be a rapier for melee as it's an elegant weapon that has a high crit and qualifies for weapon finesse, and probably a crossbow for ranged. This is a perfect time to point out why Strength isn't particularly important to a rogue unless they're going to be using the Two-Weapon Fighting route. It's important, from a combat perspective, to note that rogues really get most of their melee damage from their Sneak Attack rather than their weapon's damage. For ranged weapons, it's the opposite. There aren't many ways to get your Sneak Attack damage at range, so you'll want a decent ranged weapon like a crossbow or even a heavy crossbow. Since you're a social character, it will probably be worth it to take the -1 armor penalty to your Move Silently and Hide skills in order to wear studded leather armor for a better AC. Depending on how much sneaking around you see yourself doing, you might even go as far as taking the -2 on your skills to wear a chain shirt. Of course, as soon as possible you'll want to swap those out for the holy grail of rogue armor, the mithral chain shirt (no armor penalty to skill checks). As far as multi-classing and Prestige Classes, it's really up to you. A straight 20-lvl rogue can be an excellent social character. There isn't really anything in the PHB or DMG that really says "con man". The closest might be the Shadowdancer, which, while not giving you any social ability, will add some mobility and stealth. Which other books do you have access to? Off the top of my head, these are some places you might look: Beguiler...Player's Handbook 2 - The Beguiler is a rogue/spellcaster base class specializing in influencing people. They're all about Bluffing, both in and out of combat. From a multiclassing perspective, you'd be better off just being a straight beguiler or only taking a couple rogue levels if you want to use magic to influence people. Exemplar...Complete Adventurer - A Prestige Class that focuses entirely on enhancing a handful of skills you choose, giving you hefty bonuses to them. All skills are considered class skills for you, it gets 8 skill points per level and also lets you choose a couple of bonus feats from a moderately useful list. Personally, though, I'd just skip the multiclassing and PrCs and just go straight rogue. For ideas on what sort of stuff to do in the game, just watch any movie with a vaguely rogue-ish main character - there are tons of heist and action movies out there. Just remember two things... 1. The game isn't really about conning people and stealing stuff - the rest of your party may occasionally want to do things like go fight fight monsters and save people, etc. Unless it's important to the main story the party is involved in, any sort of criminal activity should take a back seat to the rest of the adventure. 2. If the DM is any good at all, actions you take in the game will have consequences - anytime you screw somebody over, con them out of something, or steal their stuff, they're probably not going to like it, and they may come after you. Failed scams or bad rolls can get you tossed out of town, tossed in jail, or physically attacked, so be very careful about just who you try to use your skills on. If your character ends up with a reputation as a shifty, untrustworthy guy who regularly takes advantage of people, it may become harder for you to accomplish the party's goals as fewer people will be willing to trust/help you, no matter how well you roll on your skill checks.
#13 etarnon Apr 26, 2009 21:32:39	Thieves in D&D do things like (Not always, but typically): Spot and disarm the traps. Sneak around in the dark and remove guards silently. Make the long range bow shot that takes out the tower guard. Trip an underground guards ambush and kill a guard with an accurate thrown dagger. Sneak around while the party is battling in a courtyard, and surprise the party's foes from behind. Con games and such are elaborate adventures that are typically part of a mostly rogue / Assassin type game, since they are more plotting and deception, and subterfuge than straight up action. The ideal con, there's no sword swing, nor healing, nor spells needed, and the mark is duped without realizing it, until the con man is long gone. So it leaves a party of non-rogues with not much to do, other than lie, or play thier parts. As to your con... If you forged your name on a title, it would mean not much.. you'd have to kill the guy who owned the title. Then when you go to claim, first off the title has not been registered with the clerk of courts, second off there's the matter of the dead or missing guy, whom has relatives that stand to inherit, and the local law will ask questions, focussing on you, since you are claiming the land of the dead or missing guy. Stuff that works a bit better are traditional things they did... like painting lead coins with gold leaf...which is why merchants would bite into a coin to see if it was real. Other things were merchants would rip off someone buying flour by pressing down on the scale with their thumb, so that it looks like they are selling you 2 pounds of flour except it was 1 lb 3/4. Merchants also used to have weights that were off, but local law would come around and check weights and such at fairs to make sure they were accurate...kind of like they do today with gas pumps to make sure for each gallon of gas you pay for you are getting a full gallon of gas...that's why those gas pumps are sealed with a sticker, usually of the state of issue. there are scams, most of them for thieves only. google "Common Scams" Good luck.
#14 vadyr Apr 27, 2009 19:01:13	Guys thank you very much for your insight. I think that all of your suggestions will be very helpful in creating a funfilled game for my friends and I. Initally I was really looking into the prestige class of Shadowdancer, but after the suggestions I may just go straight Rogue. I guess now you all have brought up a few more in game questions. It's also the prerequisite for Improved Feint, which may be worth taking with your maxed-out Bluff skill if you plan to go into melee. I wasnt aware that you could use the bluff skill in combat. Is Feint the only action it is used for? And again guys thank you for bearing with me and trying to help me out.
#15 Mad_Jack Apr 28, 2009 21:10:33	In 3.5, as a standard action in combat you can make a Bluff check to feint or to cause a distraction so you can make a Hide check... Feinting: You make a Bluff check opposed by the target's Sense Motive skill plus their Base Attack Bonus... If you win, they lose their Dex Bonus to AC against the next attack you make. This attack must be either during the same turn (usually not possible unless you have some way to get two standard actions in a turn) or on/before your next turn. Causing them to lose their Dex bonus to AC sets up Sneak Attack. Hiding: You make a Bluff check... If you win, you cause a distraction sufficient to allow you to make a Hide check even though people are aware of you. If you have the Improved Feint feat, feinting in combat becomes a move action rather than a standard action, allowing you to Sneak Attack on the same turn, rather than having to make the SA on your next turn. As a side note, if you plan to be feinting in combat alot, you'll pretty much need to keep your Bluff skill maxed out, and most likely take this feat. Also, feinting in combat has variable effectiveness - characters/monsters with either high Wisdom scores or high Base Attack Bonuses are less likely to fall for it. Basically, monsters that are really good at hitting you, as well as divine spellcasters and some animals are bad targets for feinting.
#16 ace_of_time Apr 28, 2009 22:08:31	Are you looking for Build help for your PC in 3.5 or things you can do in the game like the Ocean's Eleven type stuff where the story revolves around the con jobs like the old Grey Hawk series with Gord? (I think that was the name.)