[ Help ] Free/Not action dispute with DM - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

[ Help ] Free/Not action dispute with DM

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
pcosmin
Mar 16, 2010 13:21:00 Greetings fellow Dungeon crawlers,
I post with a serious question ( a bet was made about me receiving 20000XP or losing 2 levels :D ). My party was in a combat, I only entered the room and used my move action, I had two weeds in my hands that I had to give to two party memebers.
As I was in a square near both of them, was the DM right by not allowing me to give them the herbs in a 3sec action ( the one I had left ) ?

Also, can handing out herbs be considered a FREE action as it takes little to no time and doesn't require any special skill ?

Thank you
#2
Movanic
Mar 16, 2010 13:42:21
I'd rule it as a minor action. But if both your allies are adjacent and you have both herbs in hand, I'd rule you could offer both as a single minor action.

I'm using the "getting an item from your backpack action" and the "drink a potion action" as compare values. Both are minor actions.

All this being said (and not editing to show thought process), it's very un-heroic to have to spend the whole round just to hand out herbs...

Final ruling : either spend your minor action or have the other characters spend their minors to get them from you. That leaves you your standard to do something fun.

Unless the herbs were an ultra-important, story-element, key to victory and handing them out was a most heroic action : then they warrant the full sacrifice of your complete turn.
#3
Shiftkitty
Mar 16, 2010 14:10:07 Seconded. Sounds like your DM did not want them to have the herbs for some reason. He should have found a better way to do it, however, or just live with the fact that the best laid plans of mice, men and DMs often go astray.
#4
phytoon
Mar 16, 2010 14:33:32 If your friends were knocked out and the only way to give them the herbs was to administer them yourself, then it's a standard action. Otherwise, it's a free action to simply hand them over. This reminds me of the commoner rail-gun, but in this case you're just passing herbs, not a rock. I would totally rule it as a free action, especially if they're laying down and you can just drop the herbs on them.
#5
princess_artemis
Mar 16, 2010 17:03:12 It doesn't take three seconds in real life to pass off weeds to two people if you've got them both in each hand and the other two reach for them at the same time. I think you should have been allowed to do that; it would be a minor action at most. It REALLY doesn't take 3 seconds in real life if you just need to drop them on the others.

Not sure about handing out herbs--if they're already in your hand, that might be free, but if you have to take them out of a pocket or pouch, no, that's not free.
#6
pcosmin
Mar 16, 2010 17:15:45 Cheers for your answers so far, helpful, hopefully I'll win the bet, if you have any more input, I'll take it ;)
The situation was not that important, the herbs were in my hands, the characters to which I was trying to give the herbs were not ACTIVELY INVOLVED in combat so their focus was not distracted for the period
#7
jehojen
Mar 16, 2010 19:04:54 Im going to start this post by saying that the situation must be important if the number and type of actions used to complete a simple task came into question.

By that merit, I will say that not enough information is given to give a "bet winning" response to this question.

But, going off of the information given here is how I would rule this:

Handing off the herbs would be no action if the exchange took place completely outside combat. And by completely outside combat, I mean during a short rest or a purely roleplaying situation.

Handing off the herbs would be at least a minor action if the action at all affected a battle/skill challenge that was starting immediately or if you were in combat already. This ruling is one of both mechanical balance and in game logic as follows:

Mechanically, I assume the herbs did something important (again not enough information given) otherwise the actions being used wouldn't be debated, in which case handing them over should cost some kind of action in order to balance the benefit that would be received by their use.

And logically, the argument of "they were adjacent so it should take no time" sounds right to begin with, but then you must remember that in a standard D&D game each square consists of a 5 foot by 5 foot block, and your character is considered to need the entire area to maneuver in combat. Now it is entirely possible that the two adjacent allies where waiting to receive the herbs (again situational) but more likely they were (if in combat) maneuvering around their square, and so a bit of time would be given to scooting across their square and then drawing their attention to taking the herb or for your character to aim and toss. A minor action in that case sounds about right, or perhaps the characters receiving the herbs should spend the actions as Movanic suggested.

Again, all this is making a bunch of assumptions, and I would also base the outcome on the effectiveness of these "weeds" or "herbs" which could, with the information given, be both a full heal when consumed or they could be a simple "+1 to saves vs poison." That would weigh my DM decision as well.

So, I guess I would side with the DM and require at least some sort of action.
#8
Neutronium_Dragon
Mar 17, 2010 18:32:54 Either way, if the character had used a move and still had a minor AND standard left, that should've easily been enough to hand small items to two adjacent characters on the same turn.
#9
kouk
Mar 17, 2010 20:41:14 I would go with a Minor to offer both of them adequately, assuming the other PCs were willing to take them from you.

It's a free action to drop something in your or an adjacent square, but this is like sticking your hands out in an offering way for someone else to respond to and act on.

Alternately, it could be a minor action for the other player to take it from you, assuming you weren't against that.
#10
Orcboss
Mar 19, 2010 20:40:47
Either way, if the character had used a move and still had a minor AND standard left, that should've easily been enough to hand small items to two adjacent characters on the same turn.

I'd have to agree. Also, take a look at the description of a Minor Action:

"Examples: pulling an item from a pouch or a sheath, opening a door or a treasure chest, picking up an item in your space or in an unoccupied square within reach."

If you could trade your Standard down for another Minor, you'd be able to open two adjacent doors or treasure chests. Hold your hands out and saying, "Here, guys!" can't be that involved.
#11
oldguygaming
Mar 19, 2010 22:13:07 Imho, whatever we may think is completely irrelevant. It is the DM's game and his rulings are his to make. Taking a census here won't change that. You may gather some good arguments here. However, he's apparently already made his ruling. I'd suggest just accepting it and moving on.
#12
deviknyte
Mar 19, 2010 22:17:21 I would have let you give both out as a minor if they were already in hand, even if they were in the same hand.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 pcosmin Mar 16, 2010 13:21:00	Greetings fellow Dungeon crawlers, I post with a serious question ( a bet was made about me receiving 20000XP or losing 2 levels :D ). My party was in a combat, I only entered the room and used my move action, I had two weeds in my hands that I had to give to two party memebers. As I was in a square near both of them, was the DM right by not allowing me to give them the herbs in a 3sec action ( the one I had left ) ? Also, can handing out herbs be considered a FREE action as it takes little to no time and doesn't require any special skill ? Thank you
#2 Movanic Mar 16, 2010 13:42:21	I'd rule it as a minor action. But if both your allies are adjacent and you have both herbs in hand, I'd rule you could offer both as a single minor action. I'm using the "getting an item from your backpack action" and the "drink a potion action" as compare values. Both are minor actions. All this being said (and not editing to show thought process), it's very un-heroic to have to spend the whole round just to hand out herbs... Final ruling : either spend your minor action or have the other characters spend their minors to get them from you. That leaves you your standard to do something fun. Unless the herbs were an ultra-important, story-element, key to victory and handing them out was a most heroic action : then they warrant the full sacrifice of your complete turn.
#3 Shiftkitty Mar 16, 2010 14:10:07	Seconded. Sounds like your DM did not want them to have the herbs for some reason. He should have found a better way to do it, however, or just live with the fact that the best laid plans of mice, men and DMs often go astray.
#4 phytoon Mar 16, 2010 14:33:32	If your friends were knocked out and the only way to give them the herbs was to administer them yourself, then it's a standard action. Otherwise, it's a free action to simply hand them over. This reminds me of the commoner rail-gun, but in this case you're just passing herbs, not a rock. I would totally rule it as a free action, especially if they're laying down and you can just drop the herbs on them.
#5 princess_artemis Mar 16, 2010 17:03:12	It doesn't take three seconds in real life to pass off weeds to two people if you've got them both in each hand and the other two reach for them at the same time. I think you should have been allowed to do that; it would be a minor action at most. It REALLY doesn't take 3 seconds in real life if you just need to drop them on the others. Not sure about handing out herbs--if they're already in your hand, that might be free, but if you have to take them out of a pocket or pouch, no, that's not free.
#6 pcosmin Mar 16, 2010 17:15:45	Cheers for your answers so far, helpful, hopefully I'll win the bet, if you have any more input, I'll take it ;) The situation was not that important, the herbs were in my hands, the characters to which I was trying to give the herbs were not ACTIVELY INVOLVED in combat so their focus was not distracted for the period
#7 jehojen Mar 16, 2010 19:04:54	Im going to start this post by saying that the situation must be important if the number and type of actions used to complete a simple task came into question. By that merit, I will say that not enough information is given to give a "bet winning" response to this question. But, going off of the information given here is how I would rule this: Handing off the herbs would be no action if the exchange took place completely outside combat. And by completely outside combat, I mean during a short rest or a purely roleplaying situation. Handing off the herbs would be at least a minor action if the action at all affected a battle/skill challenge that was starting immediately or if you were in combat already. This ruling is one of both mechanical balance and in game logic as follows: Mechanically, I assume the herbs did something important (again not enough information given) otherwise the actions being used wouldn't be debated, in which case handing them over should cost some kind of action in order to balance the benefit that would be received by their use. And logically, the argument of "they were adjacent so it should take no time" sounds right to begin with, but then you must remember that in a standard D&D game each square consists of a 5 foot by 5 foot block, and your character is considered to need the entire area to maneuver in combat. Now it is entirely possible that the two adjacent allies where waiting to receive the herbs (again situational) but more likely they were (if in combat) maneuvering around their square, and so a bit of time would be given to scooting across their square and then drawing their attention to taking the herb or for your character to aim and toss. A minor action in that case sounds about right, or perhaps the characters receiving the herbs should spend the actions as Movanic suggested. Again, all this is making a bunch of assumptions, and I would also base the outcome on the effectiveness of these "weeds" or "herbs" which could, with the information given, be both a full heal when consumed or they could be a simple "+1 to saves vs poison." That would weigh my DM decision as well. So, I guess I would side with the DM and require at least some sort of action.
#8 Neutronium_Dragon Mar 17, 2010 18:32:54	Either way, if the character had used a move and still had a minor AND standard left, that should've easily been enough to hand small items to two adjacent characters on the same turn.
#9 kouk Mar 17, 2010 20:41:14	I would go with a Minor to offer both of them adequately, assuming the other PCs were willing to take them from you. It's a free action to drop something in your or an adjacent square, but this is like sticking your hands out in an offering way for someone else to respond to and act on. Alternately, it could be a minor action for the other player to take it from you, assuming you weren't against that.
#10 Orcboss Mar 19, 2010 20:40:47	Either way, if the character had used a move and still had a minor AND standard left, that should've easily been enough to hand small items to two adjacent characters on the same turn. I'd have to agree. Also, take a look at the description of a Minor Action: "Examples: pulling an item from a pouch or a sheath, opening a door or a treasure chest, picking up an item in your space or in an unoccupied square within reach." If you could trade your Standard down for another Minor, you'd be able to open two adjacent doors or treasure chests. Hold your hands out and saying, "Here, guys!" can't be that involved.
#11 oldguygaming Mar 19, 2010 22:13:07	Imho, whatever we may think is completely irrelevant. It is the DM's game and his rulings are his to make. Taking a census here won't change that. You may gather some good arguments here. However, he's apparently already made his ruling. I'd suggest just accepting it and moving on.
#12 deviknyte Mar 19, 2010 22:17:21	I would have let you give both out as a minor if they were already in hand, even if they were in the same hand.