Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 bevansdesign Apr 03, 2008 0:08:49	I'm playing with a friend of mine who has a rogue that just doesn't seem to be working out. Besides sneak attacks, his damage output seems pretty lousy, and he's been relying a bit too heavily on scrolls and wands to make up for it. Part of the problem is his choice of feats so far. He didn't really know what he was doing, so he took some mediocre feats like Acrobatic and Athletic rather than the ones that are useful for damage-dealing, like Weapon Finess, Two-Weapon Fighting, or the various weapon specialization feats. But our "Chief DM" doesn't want to let him change them. When I was DMing a couple weeks ago, I did give him some armor with a Two-Weapon Fighting enchant to help him out a little. Another problem may be his choice of weapons: he's using a dagger in each hand. Is there any way that daggers can actually be powerful (for example, should he be getting good magical enchantments on dagger drops to make up for the 1d4 weapon damage) or should he just avoid daggers in favor of shortswords or rapiers or something else? I'm still pretty shaky on how weapon stats are balanced. Thanks for your help.
#2 herrdoktor Apr 03, 2008 0:47:35	the +2/+2 skill feats are horrendously underpowered (not to mention that athletic and acrobatic don't exactly help out rogues that much) - really, they are best used as 'rewards' for good role-playing and the like, if they're even in your game (though i'd strongly suggest a limit of 1 or 2 per character, and only after extensive rp and efforts to show that they exhibit those qualities) as such, the dm is really being a jerkface for not letting him switch them out. there are even some retraining rules in the PHBII if the dm wants him to jump through some hoops. but as for help: weapon finesse is a very good idea. he should probably still get it, even without losing the +2/+2 feats. daggers are not very good weapons to specialise in; but they're awesome to have around. i'd suggest rapier& shortsword instead (if he likes twf; plus the high crit range will add a bit of damage). if he has another class with access to martial weapons, longsword and shortword (or even longsword & kukri) isn't bad, or if he can get one of those feats retrained to exotic weapon prof. (another (typically) unspectacular feat), bastard sword on the primary hand
#3 lurk3r Apr 03, 2008 1:28:31	Reliance on scrolls and such isn't necessarily bad, it just tends to eat up cash. There's a reason many people consider UMD to be the best skill. Since magic item use seems to be helping, try playing up that angle a bit. This however should be in addition to shoring up his melee combat capabilities.
#4 key Apr 03, 2008 9:49:37	Besides sneak attacks, his damage output seems pretty lousy, This is true of most rogues. Perhaps he should look for ways to utilize sneak attacks more often and/or deal more damage from sneaks.
#5 lsmft Apr 03, 2008 10:14:14	The difference between the best weapon and the worst is, damage-wise, pretty marginal. A great sword averages 7 points of damage, a dagger 2.5. I'm not going to say no to an extra 5 points of damage per hit, but, what is going to up my damage far more than weapon choice is going to be the add-ons (like sneak attack, flaming), multipliers (crits), and most importantly the frequency of hits. For rogues, the most popular strategy is to get as many hits in as possible (thus two-weapon fighting) and as much sneak attack damage as he can. The thing is, rogues generally need support to get SA. After the first round, you generally need a flank or spell to help deprive your enemies of their dex. He has to be a team player. His best bet is to develop strategies to allow him to get that add-on damage as often as possible. You also have to make those attacks hit, so feats like Weapon Finesse (or going ranged) are very wise choices. When it is just never going to work, there's not a lot you can do. Relying on spells or alchemical items is a good way to go. Don't knock wands. If your UMD check is high enough to let you use then reliably, they can be very good. A wand of Acid Splash is comparable to the cost of just as many masterwork arrows. (As a weapon-like spell, it can get SA damage.) You might be able to fire off more arrows in one round than spells, but it is a touch-attack. Besides sneak attacks, his damage output seems pretty lousy, Why isn't he getting more SA? There are some things he cannot control, like a mostly undead campaign. Some things, he can control though.
#6 Zherog Apr 03, 2008 10:29:47	It's a work in progress at the moment, but I've been working on a [thread=1005310]Guide to Rogues[/thread] for a little while now. There's a few things in there that should prove useful, such as ways to get sneak attack against an opponent without flanking. The biggest issue, I think is this: But our "Chief DM" doesn't want to let him change them. This, frankly, is lame. Long before PHB2 released "retraining" rules, I allowed players to rebuild their character when a new book came out or when they found something they thought better fit their character concept. Why? Because this is a game and the point is to have fun. I would seriously consider having a talk with the whole group and explain the problem. Explain why you think it would be a good thing for everybody to allow your friend to make some simple changes, such as swapping Athletic for Weapon Finesse and Acrobatic for Two-Weapon Fighting. If your main DM is still hesitant about it, there's still one option (and I offer this in all seriousness). Make a new character. This can come about several ways: Story: The player just needs to find a reason for his character to want to go a different way than the rest of the group. Maybe his character gets arrested for murder; maybe he has to go home and help his elderly father on the farm; maybe he runs off to join an assassin's guild. Whatever. Mechanical: Save this for last - try to arrange a rebuild first, then try to arrange removing the old character from the story. If that doesn't work, commit suicide. Arrange for the character to die. Charge the obviously high level NPC; attack the big dragon. Whatever. Either way, your friend now needs a new character. He makes... a rogue, with the feats he wants.
#7 Zherog Apr 03, 2008 10:51:52	And just to be clear, because I think my above post can be misconstrued. All effort should be put into talking out the issue as a group, explaining why it would be good for everybody to allow a quick rebuild. This should be your main attempt, and you should attempt it more than once. If that doesn't work, your friend should then ask if he can make a new character. That should also be given plenty of time to talk it out and all that. Only then should suicide even be considered. The point, really, is that everybody needs to have fun. If your friend's build makes his character less fun, and simple changes correct that, then it really shouldn't be a problem.
#8 bevansdesign Apr 03, 2008 19:03:29	That's all great info to think about. Thanks for your help. I think our DM may have just not allowed our rogue to switch his feats because we were in the middle of a quest at the time that I suggested it. He might let us change things around when we get back to a town. Or, we could always just change things without telling him (which I've done several times), since it's not like the DM goes around checking our character sheets. And besides, our DM is actually a cool guy that we've all known for over 15 years. If he resists more, I'll follow what the rulebooks say about changing characters around. Or, I'll just pummel him with a pillow until he relents, or steal his cigarettes.
#9 droma Apr 03, 2008 19:43:12	Or, we could always just change things without telling him (which I've done several times), since it's not like the DM goes around checking our character sheets. And besides, our DM is actually a cool guy that we've all known for over 15 years. Doing what you said in the first paragraph is an extremely bad thing as a player to do. Never ever under any circumstances alter the mechanics of your character without DM permission. Second its a bad idea because of paragraph two. He's your friend and friends shouldn't do that to other friends.
#10 crimsondeath Apr 03, 2008 19:50:41	Daggers aren't too bad. A rapier or shortsword only does an average of +1 damage/hit, and daggers have the advantage of the option to do slashing damage, which overcomes DR a lot more often than piercing. (Plus, the only backup weapon you need is a light mace for bludgeoning damage.) The rapier has a good threat range, but without the feat that lets you add sneak attack dice on criticals, that's not a huge deal for most rogues. There are some prestiege classes specifically for the use of daggers, but it generally takes several feats to enter them. If he's already burned two feats on Acrobatic and Alertness, that's probably not a viable option. Are there psionics in this game? Consider seeking out an NPC Psion to manifest Psychic Reformation so he can reallocate his feats.
#11 niugahuskie Apr 03, 2008 23:46:39	Why does he need to have a heavy hitting rogue? Question is, does he really want to change his character to be more powerful in combat, or is he satisfied with it? One problem I have with dnd is that it puts so much emphasis on being uber powerful in combat. Sometime I actually like playing mediocre characters. It makes the game more interesting for me. Sure some of the other players in my group moan and groan when I make a bard that specializes in social situations, but is practically useless in combat, but the other min/maxers in the group make up for it. I guess what I'm saying is that he should play the character that he thinks is most fun. Maybe you should ask the DM to create some situations/challenges that will put those (wasted) feats to good use.
#12 toucanbuzz Apr 04, 2008 11:10:33	I have had a new player to my gaming table who rolled a rogue, and she instinctively picked the feat Acrobatic. After all, isn't a rogue supposed to be Acrobatic and Athletic? We worked it out by figuring she wanted a rogue who had those qualities, and she didn't need a feat to define it once she put skill points into balance, jump, etc. Daggers are ok as his damage should come from sneak attacks (or perhaps obtaining enhanced daggers with bonus damage), and he's obviously got in mind what his character looks like in action. Don't ruin that picture! On a side note, I've never considered those descriptive feats (which are mostly worthless in my mind) as rewards, but I may do that if I can find a fair way to do so, and of course, if I do it no more than 1-2 times in an entire campaign.
#13 kelvinaw273 Apr 04, 2008 12:26:29	He needs to read up on Flanking and Feinting. Basically, use Tumble to get into position, and attack. Rinse, repeat. Work out tactics with other PCs so that you can have them distract a foe before you attack. That he's using daggers isn't bad, but have him look up the Invisible Blade PrC and aim for it if he wants to fight that way.
#14 crimsondeath Apr 04, 2008 13:33:01	Be sure whether you're using the Invisible Blade as written in the book, or if you're using the errata. (The errata version can only feint as a free action once per round.) In the latter case, I believe there's a feat from Drow of the Underdark that allows all your attacks in a round to count as sneak attacks if the first one did.
#15 kuros81 Apr 04, 2008 16:41:25	I'm playing with a friend of mine who has a rogue that just doesn't seem to be working out. Besides sneak attacks, his damage output seems pretty lousy, and he's been relying a bit too heavily on scrolls and wands to make up for it. Part of the problem is his choice of feats so far. He didn't really know what he was doing, so he took some mediocre feats like Acrobatic and Athletic rather than the ones that are useful for damage-dealing, like Weapon Finess, Two-Weapon Fighting, or the various weapon specialization feats. But our "Chief DM" doesn't want to let him change them. When I was DMing a couple weeks ago, I did give him some armor with a Two-Weapon Fighting enchant to help him out a little. Another problem may be his choice of weapons: he's using a dagger in each hand. Is there any way that daggers can actually be powerful (for example, should he be getting good magical enchantments on dagger drops to make up for the 1d4 weapon damage) or should he just avoid daggers in favor of shortswords or rapiers or something else? I'm still pretty shaky on how weapon stats are balanced. Thanks for your help. You DM sometimes? Here's what you do next game you run. Have them go into a town. Hang a sing on the door of an establishment that says, "Want a new you?" Inside is a mid-level psion with access to Psychic Reformation (see the Psionics portion of the SRD). For a base fee of 250gp/(level back the psion has to reach to change skills or feats), the psion can re-arrange his feats and even his skills. Edit: Do'h! Crimson Death beat me to it. Great minds think alike, but I have poor initiative (and spot checks)
#16 lurk3r Apr 07, 2008 12:05:21	the feat that lets you add sneak attack dice on criticals Where is this feat that you speak of? Because that sounds freaking awesome...
#17 Zherog Apr 07, 2008 12:13:00	Where is this feat that you speak of? Because that sounds freaking awesome... I believe it's the Telling Blow feat, from Player's Handbook 2.
#18 crimsondeath Apr 07, 2008 14:06:55	I believe it's the Telling Blow feat, from Player's Handbook 2. That's the one, thank you.
#19 lordtarmos Apr 08, 2008 18:04:01	first off if he is going to take telling blow(this is an excellent choice for a rogue) he needs to change his weapons to something that has a larger crit range(kukri is my suggetion then take improved crit kukri feat changing his crit range to 15-20 and then he will crit and get his sneak 30% of the time when he is unable to flank. this alone will improve him substatially. also add robilar's gambit feat from phb2 when it becomes available. and double hit or dual strike cant remember which one that allows you to attack with both hands anytime you get an atttack of opportunity. anything that increases his number of attacks will help him also equipment that increases his sneak attack or number of attacks will be helpful.
#20 crimsondeath Apr 08, 2008 19:40:59	The problem with kukri is that they're martial weapons; you'll need to spend a feat on Martial Weapon Proficiency or a level on a class that gets the proficiency. If you plan to spend a feat anyway, you may as well get an exotic weapon with an 18-20 critical, like the Elven Lightblade from Races of the Wild.
#21 dunsel Apr 09, 2008 15:35:11	The reason rogue get the sneak attack damage is b/c they are terrible at straight up combat! First step: decide what type of rogue the player wants. Second step: get larger weapons...at least a short sword. If he wants to play a non-combatant rogue, he is already there. Edit: At least carry a longsword, just in case.
#22 lordtarmos Apr 10, 2008 12:27:42	The problem with kukri is that they're martial weapons; you'll need to spend a feat on Martial Weapon Proficiency or a level on a class that gets the proficiency. If you plan to spend a feat anyway, you may as well get an exotic weapon with an 18-20 critical, like the Elven Lightblade from Races of the Wild. The reason i suggested kukri is because it has a 18-20 critical (any light weapon with an 18-20 crit range is ideal)but kukri is usually the one i suggest because not everyone has races of the wild or the complete scoundrel but everyone has the players handbook. you want light weapons because you want to use 2 weapons with the smallest penalty possible, you want to use the same weapon in both hands so that you do not have to waste proficiencies for both weapons(ex. improved critical).
#23 lordtarmos Apr 10, 2008 13:08:58	The reason rogue get the sneak attack damage is b/c they are terrible at straight up combat! if set up correctly sneak is what makes them awesome in combat including straight up one on one combat. First step: decide what type of rogue the player wants. agreed not everyone wants a fighting rogue! Second step: get larger weapons...at least a short sword. I disagree here light weapons with a 18-20 crit range is optimal for 2 weapon fighting. If you have access to elven lightblade it is the best but if you do not have access kukri work just fine.(yes i know they are exotic and martial, but they are worth the proficiency.) larger weapons do not increase there damage by enough to forgo 2 weapon fighting style. increase a rogue's fighting prowess by increasing its number of attacks per round and its ability to use sneak attacks (with a rogue size does not matter as much as how you use it) If he wants to play a non-combatant rogue, he is already there. rogue is an excellent class for both combatant and non-combatant players, if set up correctly they can outfight a fighter,out damage a barbarian and outskill and out talk everyone. Edit: At least carry a longsword, just in case. one of the worst weapons for a combat rogue set up your rogue with 2 weapon fighting and high dexterity(16 or higher) give him combat reflexes(gives 1 extra attacks of opportunity per point of dex bonus) every time you recieve a bonus attribute point put it in dex gain weapon finesse through class ability or feat does not matter. work in 2 levels of fighter(for the feats) 2 levels of a full bab progression prc(such as invisible blade or nightsong enforcer) (16 rogue/2 fighter/2 invisible blade)this will give you rogue bab 16 at level 20 and 4 attacks per round I know that there are better builds than this but I am without books and just doing this as fast as possible as needed add in improved 2 weapon fighting, and greater 2 weapon fighting as first epic feat take perfect 2 weapon fighting. this gives you 8 attacks per round. take telling blow phb2 early i suggest 1st level take improved critical (kukri or elven lightblade) now for 8 attacks per full round attack you critical 30% of the time and get sneak attack on all criticals. later add robilar's gambit around level 16 and every time someone else melee attacks you you get a aoo at full bab and crit 30% of the time and sneak attacking with no assistance(if you flank you always get sneak even for the aoo's) and add the feat (double hit or dual strike) the one that gives you one strike from each hand per att of opportunity by the time you reach 20 you have (if you start with dex 18)dex23 dex item increases it by =6 to 29 ad a +5 inherent bonus to dex for 34 ac =10+dex bonus of 12+wisdom bonus of 2(if you took invisible blade) light armor mithril chain +5 for another 9 thats a total ac of 33 if you add a buckler +5 thats 39 add speed and deadly precision (=1d6 to sneak)to both of your kukri and that gives you give yourself murderer's gloves (+2d6) to all sneak attacks with a different type of enhancement from deadly precision you get 10 attacks with all sneak attacks giving you +11d6 of sneak attack damage. you get up to 12 attacks or opportunity (2 attacks each attack at full bab) (that is up to 24 additional attacks per round) total 34 attacks per round (average of 30% of which will be possible criticals) this is the easiest way to build a self sufficient combat rogue
#24 lordtarmos Apr 10, 2008 13:45:30	Edit: At least carry a longsword, just in case. long sword with telling blow and improved crit damage 1d8 crit range 17-20 out of 100 tries we will say he hits on 11 or better roll of 20(or 50%) 50 hits he will possibly crit on average 20 out of the 50 hits 50% of those will actually crit for (after he rolls to confirm)so 10 criticals thats 50 hits 40 at 1d8 damage or 4.5x40 equals 180 damage 10 criticals at 2d8+11d6 damage or 10x((4.5x2)+(11x3.5) which equals 475 damage for longsword that is 475+180=655 total damage now for kukri (elven swift blade would be higher) using the same formula out of 100 tries 50 hit on average he will possibly crit 30 out of the 50 tries 50% actually crit for 15 total criticals so for a kukri's 50 hits we get the following 35 at 1d4 damage or 2.5x35 which equals 87.5 damage plus 15 criticals at 2d4+11d6 damage or 15x((2.5x2)+(11x3.5) which equals 652.5 damage for a total of 652.5+87.5=740 total damage winner for a rogue is light weapon with large crit range if you get 5 attacks per round this would happen in 20 rounds not exactly optimal now the trick is this since you use the longsword 1 handed you get half as many attacks as you would 2 weapon fighting. so if you go 2 weapon fighting with the kukri. you get 10 attacks per round thus it happens in only 10 rounds if you add robilars gambit and have taken combat reflexes (deft opportunist if you choose)and are attacked by 2 melee attackers 5 times by each attacker you will get your 10 attacks plus your aoo for each time they attack you for 10 more this will happen in 5 rounds now you add double hit for 1 attack per hand for each attack of opportunity that means you get your 10 attacks at regular bab and 20 attacks of opportunity at full bab for a total of 30 attacks in one round now it happens in 3 and one third rounds. not bad huh! now if you use 2 long swords you will take a significant penalty for you offhand for less total damage
#25 hsien Apr 10, 2008 14:21:46	Some things to consider, as I really liked my rogish Master Thrower (Co War) and which is also why really like daggers, good for melee and range ~Telling Blow, sneak dice can only be added once, if flanking and confirm crit you do not get sneak dice twice. ~Fighter 4, for weapon spec and that opens up acces to Range Wpn Mastery which is really nice for damage and the range increment increase ~Swashbuckler 3; to add Int mod to damage Daring Outlaw feat to combine Swash & Rogue for some abilities ~Swordsage, (ToB) Shadowhand, can give access to feat to add Dex mod to damage and Assassin's stance, +2d6 Sneak damage. Daggers are a Shadowhand weapon so fits nicely. ~Invis Blade, prev mentioned ~Whisperknife ( RoWild) I'm not real familiar with as my group doesn't allow it, but it combines nicely ~Master thrower...MT5 gives Imp Crit and access to trick that uses Touch AC Take Ranged Trip and Deadly Precision ( increase crit multipleir by 1 ) and the character can battlefield control support and good damage. Did I mention I really liked Master thrower? At 15th lvl often delt over 50 points with a single normal dagger, if creature can be crit/sneaked.
#26 Zherog Apr 10, 2008 14:57:19	(16 rogue/2 fighter/2 invisible blade)this will give you rogue bab 16 at level 20 and 4 attacks per round Alternately, swap one of those fighter levels for a level in swashbuckler. You'll get Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat (rather than a bonus feat you pick), and you'll have a better skill selection.
#27 lordtarmos Apr 10, 2008 16:50:42	Some things to consider, as I really liked my rogish Master Thrower (Co War) and which is also why really like daggers, good for melee and range agreed this is a good way to go for a ranged combatant but not for melee. ~Telling Blow, sneak dice can only be added once, if flanking and confirm crit you do not get sneak dice twice. agreed again, all my calculation are made for non flanking one on one characters(if you add flanking it gets really ugly.) ~Fighter 4, for weapon spec and that opens up acces to Range Wpn Mastery which is really nice for damage and the range increment increase 4 levels of fighter is too much though I think.its just me though ~Swashbuckler 3; to add Int mod to damage Daring Outlaw feat to combine Swash & Rogue for some abilities i love the daring outlaw feat along with the one that adds scout/rogue together(both are in complete scoundrel I believe) ~Invis Blade, prev mentioned there is another prc that adds wisdom modifier also to AC(do not have books so I cannot remember it.) ~Master thrower...MT5 gives Imp Crit and access to trick that uses Touch AC Take Ranged Trip and Deadly Precision ( increase crit multipleir by 1 ) and the character can battlefield control support and good damage. Did I mention I really liked Master thrower? At 15th lvl often delt over 50 points with a single normal dagger, if creature can be crit/sneaked. For thrown weapons master thrower rogue is the way to go definately, but not for melee damage. A melee 2 weapon fighting rogue will usually out damage a thrower in the long run because the melee rogue can flank. that said I love throwers as much as I love rogues for awesome combatants, because the thrower can stay out of combat and takes less damage normally
#28 hsien Apr 10, 2008 18:29:59	Swordsage ( 3 I think ) gives Wis to AC, iirc Don't recall restrictions. True, about the melee vs ranged but...TWF Thrower is an ok melee as well, is and with the Tricks; Ranged Trip, x3 Crits and Touch AC use, goes a long way to offsetting that melee capability. The Ranged Trip got heavy use when fighting non-crit/sneak dmge and flying monsters. It's raining...well whetever that was flying around. Having a Marshall with Art of War gave a nice boost to trip check. Disclaimer: Any insinuation that those are the only tricks or the best tricks for Master Throwers is completely false. A variety of tricks are available and make MT very personalizable to your throwing needs. This message has been brought to you by the Society of Master Throwers Anonymous. "Why throw, when you can throw with style instead."
#29 mock26 Apr 10, 2008 19:15:43	Is your friend having fun? Is his character a detriment to the group? If the answers are Yes and No respectively then don't worry about it. One important part of playing D&D (and life in general) is learning from your mistakes. It doesn't sound like the character is useless, just that he isn't fully optimized. If the character is still useful then I'd say, "Don't worry about it."