Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Alter_Boy Nov 09, 2009 20:51:16	99% of my experience playing D&D has been as a DM. I've gotten fairly good at doing what a DM needs to do. But I recently hooked up with a new group of older adults for a 4ed campaign. For the first time in years, I'm playing as a PC. No longer will I be the center of attention at a D&D game, threatening other people with death from monsters or have people spend minutes listening to me talk. I got to be a part of the team. The funny thing is that 2 other players are ex-DMs who are playing again. The tricky thing is that our DM is a) very soft-spoken and open to us try what we want, and b) does not know the system as well as we do. However, I think this will be a story-driven campaign, so our backgrounds as storytellers will help move things along. Anyone have any advice for a DM becoming a player again? I know the 4ed rules well, as do the other ex-DMs.
#2 Novacat Nov 09, 2009 23:13:25	• If it were me in that position, my biggest problem would probably be trying to remember to keep my mouth shut when I want to give advice on how to run the game. On more than one occasion, I've overwhelmed new DMs with my enthusiasm, and unwittingly changed their games in ways that they weren't really happy about. I would say that you should offer advise when it is solicited, but make it clear that he's the DM, and so it's ultimately up to him, and you'll accept what he decides. • Support is key to fostering a confident DM. Also, when he screws up, you should have plenty of stories about how you screwed up at DMing when you were new at it. That will help take the edge off, as he realizes that even experienced DMs started out as noobs like him. • Think aloud when you wonder about the plot. This will allow him to pick up on your perception of the game's situation, and possibly adjust things to suit. If you pick up on a plot hole, for instance, have your character wonder aloud about how something's fishy, and the clues aren't lining up. Then you come up with a theory about how that could be, so he has something to go on. • Finally, don't pull your punches. He's running a game for experienced players, so he should know ahead of time that he'll need to work overtime to challenge you, because you all know the routine so well. Don't intentionally make tactical mistakes, for example. Build the biggest, baddest characters you can, and lay waste to the monsters with all the delicacy of dump truck. This will help him adapt, and make him better at running the monsters. As players, don't lose sight of the fact that D&D is a cooperative game, not just between players, but also between the players and the DM. You can still use your DM skills to help him have fun, and the rest will fall into place by itself.
#3 atrociousDM Nov 10, 2009 3:11:12	In my current D&D campaign, almost all the players are also DMs. In addition, we do take turns DMing. I think this is the main reason I am so happy with the way the game is working out for us. We don't have as much of the idiot-selfish-I-am-only-playing-my-character stuff that I have seen cropping up in other games, because it seems that because of our DMing experience, we are all interested in the game working as a whole. Our experience tends to make it easier for the current DM to introduce plots, get the players to work together and we don't take perverse pleasure in messing up the game for the fun of it. In fact, the only player that causes any sort of problem(and it is still pretty minor) is the only player who has not DMed.  I would like to point out that our game is rules-heavy and we try to avoid DM fiat as much as possible, it is common for the person who is DMing at a particular time to request rules-clarifications from the other players when things seem unclear. I think the key here for us is that doing so does not in the eyes of the player undermine the authority of the DM. The authority of the DM is not grounded on infinite wisdom and knowledge of the rules, but in their willingness and effort to create an entertaining and challenging story for their fellow players. We see it as our responsibility to support this effort. But, sometimes, when your character is reduced to single digit hit-points and you know that your interpretation of a certain spell would probably save the entire party from total annihilation, but the DM disagrees, it can be a bit difficult.  I try to remember it is only a game.
#4 Alter_Boy Nov 10, 2009 18:45:19	We don't have as much of the idiot-selfish-I-am-only-playing-my-character stuff that I have seen cropping up in other games, because it seems that because of our DMing experience, we are all interested in the game working as a whole. I have seen that before. Thanks to you and Novacat for two quality posts.
#5 kouk Nov 10, 2009 23:59:35	I disagree with trying to make the most powerful PC possible. While demolishing the new DM's encounters would teach some kind of lesson, it isn't something that's necessary to force down his throat with actions likely to damage the enjoyment of people at the table (as you easily walk over his encounters and he wonders why his encounters keep not living up to the book, before realizing you've simply built an extra powerful character). Build a normally, fairly efficient character (as opposed to some powergamed thing), and after the guy is more experienced he will be able to alter things in the game, such as encounter difficulty, with more confidence. I agree you shouldn't "play stupid" intentionally, unless that's your character. But if it is part of your character, roleplaying is also a part of the game that has to go on.   The biggest hurdle for experienced DMs playing with newbie DMs is probably the urge to say how things "should" be though, I agree. However further than simply stating out loud, which is clearly going to be disruptive, what you should focus more on as a now player is your own thought processes. Thinking about how you'd do something differently probably will detract from your enjoyment as a player. You will almost certainly have those moments, but if you are having those thoughts constantly you are focusing too much on the "DM" side of things and looking at the game under the surface rather than enjoying what you have in front of you. If there's a serious issue, make note of it and bring it up with the DM later, but if there aren't major problems try to think more from the perspective of your character, and observe the effects of choices different than you would make. You may notice something that players respond to differently with, possibly better in some situations.
#6 FitzNighteyes Nov 12, 2009 19:54:14	Number one thing to do is make sure you don't tell the DM what the rules are, avoiding any absolute statements.  If he seems unsure, feel free to let him know what you think they are, but if you do that it always helps to preface it with "I think".  Also, do not get dragged into rules arguments, even if you strongly disagree (this is a big danger with multiple ex-DMs).  If there is a rules ambiguity being discussed, don't do more than explain your point of view briefly and then let him make his decision. If you are planning to do anything funky that depends on something you know is ambiguous or will seem wierd to a newer DM, make sure you ask him before you set your character up to do it.  For example, in LFR I play a Warlock that curses enemies then hits him with his sword for extra curse damage.  Perfectly valid by the rules, but some DMs think it's off.  I always check with new DMs before the game begins to make sure he and I both are in sync that it's okay by the rules.
#7 Alter_Boy Nov 13, 2009 19:26:49	Thanks for the advice. My session went very well. There were some wonky rule question involving my Shaman PC, but it was brought up by another player, and I think the DM was okay with it.
#8 whtetyger Nov 13, 2009 19:47:51	I agree, I think the hardest part is remembering you are a player and not continually telling the DM what this rule or that power says.
#9 Svempa Nov 14, 2009 6:41:47	99% of my experience playing D&D has been as a DM. I've gotten fairly good at doing what a DM needs to do. But I recently hooked up with a new group of older adults for a 4ed campaign. For the first time in years, I'm playing as a PC. No longer will I be the center of attention at a D&D game, threatening other people with death from monsters or have people spend minutes listening to me talk. I got to be a part of the team. It was almost the same for me- 99% DM/GM time. But my main problem when I made the switch was the "waiting for your turn" bit. I never had to do that before, because every turn was my turn, in a way. So both campaigns I have been a player in have been mildly frustrating, but fun. In my own campaign that has been running for three months now or so I have two DMs who have played 4th ed more than me (probably more D&D of all editions) I think the best thing for your DM to do is to sit back and just enjoy the fact that he has experienced little helpers ;) After a few sessions I started looking at it like that and things got much easier, plus I saw then that the xDMs (or whatever you want to call them) were actually trying to help me run the game... They weren't trying to nitpick. But yeah, I had to amp up the difficulty of the monsters some and throw in nasty swarms, etc. Last session one of the xDMs tried to use spark form to escape a grab. I said that it was a system breaker. There is nothing that says you can use spark form to escape from a grab and I thought it was a little too creative. He actually got a bit miffed and I thought, "wow, he's actually allowing himself to get a bit spazzy about things, I think he's beginning to relax more" Long and hard is the path that leads from darkness into the light. But we can all change! ;)
#10 darksavior Nov 15, 2009 5:55:28	99% of my experience playing D&D has been as a DM. I've gotten fairly good at doing what a DM needs to do. But I recently hooked up with a new group of older adults for a 4ed campaign. For the first time in years, I'm playing as a PC. No longer will I be the center of attention at a D&D game, threatening other people with death from monsters or have people spend minutes listening to me talk. I got to be a part of the team. The funny thing is that 2 other players are ex-DMs who are playing again. The tricky thing is that our DM is a) very soft-spoken and open to us try what we want, and b) does not know the system as well as we do. However, I think this will be a story-driven campaign, so our backgrounds as storytellers will help move things along. Anyone have any advice for a DM becoming a player again? I know the 4ed rules well, as do the other ex-DMs. Sit back and enjoy the ride, use the opportunity to help yourself to some perspective which will make you a better DM and Player, and you more experienced folks help the newer DM polish up his savvy on the rules.  Getting to check out other people's DM'ing styles will help make you better.  Most importantly, have fun, there may come a time where all you ever get to do is DM and you really wish you could just get a chance to play, so enjoy it while you can.