I think Doopliss has a really cool idea with this contest that has the potential to be a very useful resource. Getting a look at how other folks create a PC can be a useful tool; getting your own PC (complete with background) critiqued can also be useful. And hopefully, it was fun along the way.
So here's your chance to discuss things. What did you think of Round 1? What do you want to see for future rounds? Is the contest better as just a character creation contest (like round 1 was), or should it always combine the creation with a chance to show off the character (like round 2 will be)?
In future contests, do you want to see a more narrow focus to the characters (at least some of the time)? For example, make a specialist wizard. Do you want to see "optional" elements that must be incorporated, sort of like what the folks in the Master DM Competitions do?
Basically, this is your opportunity to discuss all things Hero Craftsman - ideas, comments, and so on. Bring it on!
List of Past Contests
- [thread=604592]Hero Craftsman #1[/thread]
- [thread=702688]Hero Craftsman #2: Divine Servant[/thread]
- [thread=716125]Hero Craftsman #3: Gladiators![/thread]
- [thread=733303]Hero Craftsman #4: Welcome to the Monastery[/thread]
- [thread=748401]Hero Craftsman #5: Year of the Dragons[/thread]
- [thread=769340]Hero Craftsman #6: The Frost Has Fallen[/thread]
- [thread=790545]Hero Craftsman #7: Love Those Sidekicks[/thread]
- [thread=817650]Hero Craftsman #8: The Cobblestone Jungle[/thread]
- [thread=846201]Hero Craftsman #9: The Epitome of Exalted[/thread]
- [thread=875505]Hero Craftsman #10: Denizens of the Desert[/thread]
- [thread=912260]Hero Craftsman #11: Scions of Skill[/thread]
- [thread=938798]Hero Craftsman #12: Heroes of Horror[/thread]
- [thread=963230]Hero Craftsman #13: Do You Feel Lucky?[/thread]
- [thread=986214]Hero Craftsman #14: Into the Great Unknown[/thread]
- [thread=1006445]Hero Craftsman #15: Yer Such a Munchkin![/thread]
- [thread=1026916]Hero Craftsman #16: It's the End of the World As We Know It[/thread]
- [thread=1055774]Hero Craftsman #17: We're Goin' Underground![/thread]
- [thread=1073934]Hero Craftsman #18: I Need A Hero![/thread]
- [thread=1114397]Hero Craftsman #19: Hunters and Gatherers[/thread]
- [thread=1136423]Hero Craftsman #20: Back to School[/thread]
- [thread=1178545]Hero Craftsman #21: Detectives[/thread]
List of Proposed Theme Ideas, originally compiled by Magocrat
The Big List
Suggestions for Upcoming Hero Craftsman Competitions
Background:
Class:
Environment:
Personality:
Races or monsters:
Additional requirements:
Background:
- Bloodlines
- Common
- Nobility
- Oriental
- Planes
- Streets
- Tribal
- War refugees
Class:
- Character class
- Epic characters
- Exotic weapon users
- No prestige classes
Environment:
- Arctic
- Desert
- Forest
- Ocean
- Planes
- Underdark
- Urban
Personality:
- Alignment
- Con artist
- Diplomats
- Fallen heroes
- Foolish
- Leaders
- Improvisers
- Rebellious
- Redeemed heroes
- Sagacious
- Silent
Races or monsters:
- Aberrations
- Angels or fiends
- Non-humanoids
- Racial paragons
- Undead
Additional requirements:
- Cursed
- Disabled
- Diseased
- Inspired (in-character)
- Inspired (real life inspiration)
- Twins
First off, EXCELLENT idea for a competition Doopliss
In forums where I often see complaining, whiining and bickering at nauseum, it has been a breath of fresh air to have a positive thread like the Hero Craftsman to come to and check out.
Secondly. I'm all for some quantifiers in the future like spellcasters only, or melee only....Although my main concern for this would be if there would be enough entries. Maybe once there is a stronger following of contestants it would be possible to narrow down the guidelines a bit.
A question for any of the judges, if you don't mind me asking.....
Approximately how long did it take for each of you to go through the entries?
Was the 6 or 7 entries more than enough, would there be time for more if more contestants were admitted, would less entries be preferrable?
Thridly. As for the second round of actually playing the characters....Hard to say without having done the 2nd round yet. Cool idea, but have yet to see how well it may work.
I do hope to see this type of thread continue. It has been refreshing to come and visit and has reafirmed my faith in this game and that all is not lost. Both judges and contestants from the original thread were great and all deserve a pat on the back for a job well done. This is the internet so a cookie will have to do instead.
Cookies all around
Approximately how long did it take for each of you to go through the entries?
Not speaking for the other judges, I usually look through them and score them as they're posted, so it's not bad for me.
I very much enjoyed entering the competition, and would love to have a chance to do so again. I also enjoyed reading other people's characters (mostly the backgrounds...I like making stat blocks but have more trouble reading them
). As for Round 2....very interesting concept to which I look forward to competing in.As for future competitions, I like the idea of placing some restrictions or optional elements, but only just enough to keep it interesting, so it's not the same competition each time. Too many optional elements may end up with people creating characters with ridiculous backgrounds just to fit everything in instead of focusing on making something that works and is interesting. But I definitely like the idea of varying the competition.
A couple more ideas for varying: Perhaps you could have a scenario: your xth level character will be taking on this specific monster of the appropriate challenge rating. What do you build? And then in Round 2, they take on the challenge and we see who does it most efficiently/lasts the longest. Or maybe you have to build two characters and explain why they travel together and how they make a good team. I don't know how easy those might be to implement, but it would give returning contestants a new challenge to attempt.
Hope these comments have been as helpful as Zherog's were on the characters entered
Thanks again to the judges for a job well done.I generally think taking an abstract concept like that and having the contestants build to that theme, though in a fashion that is open to interperetation, is a wonderful way to get the creative juices flowing. One of my favorite CO contests, though also one of the most controversial was the November 2004 contest, where the concept theme was siblings and contestants entered in pairs.
Most of these past contests have been archived on the Optimization Challenge Board if people want to take a look at them:
October 2004: Undead Slayers
November 2004: Siblings
December 2004: Cold Characters
March 2005: Fey Characters
April 2005: D&D Iron Chef
May 2005: Battlefield Commanders
June 2005: Fire Characters
Those are all the ones I can find at the moment.
As for future competitions, I like the idea of placing some restrictions or optional elements, but only just enough to keep it interesting, so it's not the same competition each time.
Actually, that's why I've put so much emphasis on how much round 2 will varry.
A couple more ideas for varying: Perhaps you could have a scenario: your xth level character will be taking on this specific monster of the appropriate challenge rating. What do you build? And then in Round 2, they take on the challenge and we see who does it most efficiently/lasts the longest.
I'm a bit worried about Spellcasters being at an advantage. They can always manage something unpredictable, it seems. Perhaps that's where Optional Elements come in.
Or maybe you have to build two characters and explain why they travel together and how they make a good team. I don't know how easy those might be to implement, but it would give returning contestants a new challenge to attempt.
I don't plan on forcing anyone to create more than one character. Still, it would be somewhat cool if I had a relatively open-ended character, and see who can think up the best reason for the first character and the NPC (Same for everyone) to adventure together...
Come to think of it, it might be better if we don't ensure it will be an adventure at all. Make the scoring for round 2 different every time to fit the scenario, it would discourage folks from flocking away from Fighters and LA, (Not to imply we had that problem. :D ) and keep it fresh and interesting. Of course, no rules changes will be made until the next go-round, and even then I'll ask for opinions on them.
I generally think taking an abstract concept like that and having the contestants build to that theme, though in a fashion that is open to interperetation, is a wonderful way to get the creative juices flowing.
Ooh, seems cool. 'Undead hunters' or 'Fire Characters' might be a wee bit too restrictive, but it definitely has merit. Would also allow synergy between the character requirements and the second round to some extent.
A question for any of the judges, if you don't mind me asking.....
Approximately how long did it take for each of you to go through the entries?
Was the 6 or 7 entries more than enough, would there be time for more if more contestants were admitted, would less entries be preferrable?
Unfortunately for me, I'm a perpetual procrastinator. So I waited until all the entries were completed before I started scoring 'em. I spent about 2 hours per each entry. If you couldn't tell from my comments, I started with the stat blocks - even for folks who put them after the text. I looked it over to get an idea of what I would be looking it, then dove in and started verifying the math. First thing I verified was the point buy for stats. ;)
Once I was through the math, I went back to read the details. Sometimes, the details cleared up questions I had in the stats. For example, one of my notes on Fitz was to try to figure out why the hell he was carrying around a spell component pouch and spellbook. But once I started reading, I figured that one out. ;)
The hardest part for me was finding enough time to get them all completed. Ironically, I was able to get more done while at work than at home. Just don't tell my boss. ;)
A question for any of the judges, if you don't mind me asking.....
Approximately how long did it take for each of you to go through the entries?
Was the 6 or 7 entries more than enough, would there be time for more if more contestants were admitted, would less entries be preferrable?
Oh, I was meaning to answer this.
Took me roughly 6 hours straight without stopping on a Thursday morning with a coffee overload and too much spare time.
In hindsight, it wasn't very smart to have the coffee, my hands were all over the place, and it was pretty hard to use a calculator or keyboard. At least I knew where my mind was.
If I do that same thing again, I'd say that 6 entries is plenty, thank you.
If I do what Doopie did, and judged them as I went, and not sit on my lazy *whoopsie!* and procrastinate like I wasn't even judging in the first place, then I would have much more energy for more entries.
If I do that same thing again, I'd say that 6 entries is plenty, thank you.
See, as much work as it was to go through everything - I really hope the next time there's more than six entries. I'd love to see things getting up near the number of entries the MDMC gets. ;)
One of my favorite CO contests, though also one of the most controversial was the November 2004 contest
Yeah - that was great fun, wasn't it? :D
Good luck.
For other ideas on character contest like melee only or spellcasting only, it would be a great idea cause thats pretty much what I do in my spare time. I believe I have 6 or 7 unplayed made characters including a
Human Monk/Reaping Mauler
Halfing Fighter/outrider
Human Rogue/Invisible Dagger/Master thrower
Human wizard/Mind bender
Dwarf Barbarian/Frienzied Bezerker
Human Monk/Reaping Mauler
Halfing Fighter/outrider
Human Rogue/Invisible Dagger/Master thrower
Human wizard/Mind bender
Dwarf Barbarian/Frienzied Bezerker
Are you possibly... Hinting that you'd like non-core/official SRD stuff allowed in future competitions? :P
What would the possibility be of somehow combining or collabarating with a MDMC or Wyrmling Competition.
As adventure and world builders it could be interesting for the DMs to have some characters in mind when they do their competitions, or at least actually have some PCs run trough all their hard work. Even old material could be used from past competitions.
In the future, the Hero Craftsman competition could maybe use the wealth of material from the DM competition for possible ideas and requirements.
Ugh, I know I'm probably not conveying what I'd like to say with great eloquance but something along those lines...
Basically a community effort of interaction that will, in hopes, encourage bith players and dms alike to share and grow with one another.
Or something like that.
Thoughts?.....
Or am I just dreaming.
***
Here's a thought of my own. I think these contests should, in the future, avoid doing a "round 2" type thing as often as possible. My personal opinion is that round 2 is going to be extremely difficult to handle, and difficult doesn't often translate to fun (though they also aren't mutually exclusive).
I think a better plan for future events is to encourage folks to build characters along certain themes. The theme might be as broad as this one - build a 4th level character. Or maybe it could be narrowed down - build a 6th level character designed to adventure in a cold climate. Those sort of things certainly seem the easiest to develop.
I also think it would be a good idea for future contests to add a "build table" to every entry. This would be something simple, and would show how the character levels up. Something like:
Some more questions for others.
Would you rather develop a character in the low (1-6), medium (7-13), or high (14+) level range?
Would there be any interest in developing epic level characters?
Would there be any interest in opening things up to books outside of core?
Just some random questions.
I'm a fan of low to mid levels myself.
Not too interested in developing Epic level characters, but that's not to say I would never do it. Just not a big selling point.
I'm a bit of a minimalist myself but I am not opposed to outside Core material. The main problem I could forsee with that though is for judges having all the materials neccessary to judge things. If none Core stuff was allowed perhaps the Stat block should also include pertanent book and pg.# references so the judges aren't spending all their time trying to find obscure rulings.
Second concern for outside material would be if it goes outside what the CoC would allow for posting none SRD stuff.
Just some random answers.
I also like the idea of make whole parties, maybe once you've crafted all of them you would have to give some examples of how they all work so well together which keeps them alive, or you'd have to add how they all met.
The build table does seem like it would be a good idea. Especially with higher level or multi-classed characters.
Live and learn.
It's definitely something that can easily be incorporated into the next contest. I'm a fan of low to mid levels myself.
*nods* Each range of levels has something different to offer. Higher levels have a lot to offer, but they can be difficult to build and judge.
Not too interested in developing Epic level characters, but that's not to say I would never do it. Just not a big selling point.
Epic would be interesting - if it was done sparingly. I don't know if I'd be able to judge it; I've never played or DMed a game that uses the Epic rules.
I'm a bit of a minimalist myself but I am not opposed to outside Core material. The main problem I could forsee with that though is for judges having all the materials neccessary to judge things. If none Core stuff was allowed perhaps the Stat block should also include pertanent book and pg.# references so the judges aren't spending all their time trying to find obscure rulings.
Well, certainly, if outside material were going to be allowed, the judges would have to agree up front what books that would cover. And I think it would be a bad idea for a judge to not have a copy of the books allowed. So, for example, I have all four Complete books, so I could fairly judge a contest using those (or I think so anyway). I don't have Races of Destiny, though, so I probably wouldn't be able to judge a contest that allowed all the "Races of" books.
I do think it would be wise to keep extra books to a minimum. So, for example, maybe the next contest would allow stuff from SRD or the Complete Books. The contest after that might allow Core and the environment books. And so on. I don't think it'd be wise to have an "anything goes" contest more than once a year or so. So on that point, I agree with you about the minimilistic approach.
Second concern for outside material would be if it goes outside what the CoC would allow for posting none SRD stuff.
I don't think there's a problem here. The Character Optimization board has had contests in the past that allows material from just about any source.
Just some random answers.
Just some thoughts of my own on my own questions. ;)
What?
Oh, just bringing this thread back from the bowels of the Abyss.
Y'know, letting you know that we haven't forgotten about y'all gorgeous people.
So's to let you know, us judges are right now considering whether or not to simply dump Round 2 altogether, and move right on to HC#2. I mean, nothing so far has been done, nobody seems to want to actually get on with it, like washing out the gutters on a rainy night.
Anybody want a say in this?
A possible substitute to the current Round 2, that I've just come up with (but haven't told anyone yet), is that we pitch the entries against each other in a Bracket Tourney (or a Battle Royale), and have a jolly good fight to the death.
The actions of one's character could be determined by either the judge (to make this quick; the judge would most likely go by a description of tactics that was submitted along with the rest of the character) or the submitter himself (in this case, we could end up with the same problem as the original Round 2, but with a few extra complications, although it would gift the submitter more control over his own character and assure the submitter that the judges aren't 'fixing' the results.)
The outcome of the battle (and a list of all the actions and dice rolls made) would be posted for the public to cheer or jeer, and the winner (and maybe runners-up) of the tourney could, perhaps, receive a small bonus to his final score for Round 1.
Any thoughts on this idea?
And keep those suggestions and comments coming.
A possible substitute to the current Round 2, that I've just come up with (but haven't told anyone yet), is that we pitch the entries against each other in a Bracket Tourney (or a Battle Royale), and have a jolly good fight to the death.
The actions of one's character could be determined by either the judge (to make this quick; the judge would most likely go by a description of tactics that was submitted along with the rest of the character) or the submitter himself (in this case, we could end up with the same problem as the original Round 2, but with a few extra complications, although it would gift the submitter more control over his own character and assure the submitter that the judges aren't 'fixing' the results.)
Sounds cool. We want blood!
I'm somewhat skeptical about taking control of the PCs, perhaps each player gives his round's actions to one judge, who then passes it on to a third judge who resolves the round. It would somewhat screw over the reason we're planning on getting rid of Round 2, but we wouldn't also have any NPCs to manage. All we need to do is calculate results.
The outcome of the battle (and a list of all the actions and dice rolls made) would be posted for the public to cheer or jeer, and the winner (and maybe runners-up) of the tourney could, perhaps, receive a small bonus to his final score for Round 1.
Again, I'd prefer to keep the competitions separate. The round's already over, and winners have already been declared.
I'd post more, but I need to be out the door one minute ago. See you!
Cheers!
I never got to create a character or play one to that high of a level, so it would be interesting.
Or maybe a "champion of evil" contest (or something), where all the entries have to be evil.
Or one with all the characters having to be creatures with an LA of 1 or more.
Just some thoughts.
I would like to see an "epic character" contest (level 15+).
I never got to create a character or play one to that high of a level, so it would be interesting.
I would think something in that range would make an appearance as a topic eventually.
Or maybe a "champion of evil" contest (or something), where all the entries have to be evil.
I'm only one person, but "all evil" parties don't really thrill me too much. As things stand, you're currently allowed to make an evil PC; you just have to make that PC reasonably fit in with an adventuring party that may or may not be evil.
Or one with all the characters having to be creatures with an LA of 1 or more.
Could be interesting. The problem I could see with this would be twofold. One, there's plenty of people that get confused when things like LA, racial hit dice, ECL, etc get discussed. Two, it has potential to be a judging nightmare.
Still, it's definitely a viable possibility.
The next HC will be posted this Friday. And speaking of nightmares to judge... I may have picked the wrong time to volunteer for the Coordinating Judge position. This next competition will definately produce some varied, and powerful (small, useless hint) characters. My Christmas present will be a hoard of characters I have to judge.
I will say this:
I agree with Zherog. Evil and Teamwork aren't exactly the best of friends. Hero Craftsman is an attempt to create characters that could be dropped into (most) any DM's campaign as valid and usable characters. Evil just doesn't play nice!
Still, we may do a "Champion of (Alignment/Race/Ideal)" contest one of these days. I think it would be entertaining to judge or compete in such an event.
See everyone this Friday.
In HC 3 we had to make gladiators. I'm assuming those characters weren't supposed to join any adventuring parties. The majority were evil too.
On a seperate note, I'm looking forward to the next competition.
***
The next HC will be posted this Friday. And speaking of nightmares to judge... I may have picked the wrong time to volunteer for the Coordinating Judge position. This next competition will definately produce some varied, and powerful (small, useless hint) characters. My Christmas present will be a hoard of characters I have to judge.
Coordinating isn't too much more work, actually. Adding a link to the list when someone posts a character is pretty easy. And then the rest is just adding scores up. I used Excel. I could e-mail you the spreadsheet I used for HC3 or HC4, though it's really nothing fancy.
Tell the judges what you liked about 5, and what could be done better for future contests.
Toss out ideas for themes. Remember, though, that whatever theme you come up with is likely going to be changed by the judges.
Offer general suggestions about the contests.
And so on.
reduce level to about 7th to 10th
how about a character for an Urban campaign
"the city life for me"
possibly requireing characters to demonstrate a means of living in the city.
HC1: 4th level
HC2: 7th level
HC3: 12th level
HC4: 8th level
HC5: 16th level
So while I would expect the HC6 to drop the level down towards the bottom, I would say it's possible - and even likely - that we'd hit the high levels again. I wouldn't expect it to be very frequent, though.
Your theme is a cool idea, and definitely worth holding onto.
I would like to suggest something with the planes. With so many planes, there are a lot of options that can be chosen. (My Dungeon Master would like to suggest the theme 'aberrations'.)
But what I really liked about Hero Craftsman, and what will probably continue being a part of the competition, is the camaraderie. I really like discussing the crafting of characters with fellow players of the game. That definitely encourages me to participate in the following competitions.
By the way, it's a good idea to have a seperate thread for spilling your guts on the Hero Craftsman. That allows the hero crafting to be undisturbed by other discussions.
Keep up the good work, Zherog!
So, my ideal tournament to compete in would definately be a High Level, Abberation-themed, HC Competition that allowed the Lords of Madness. However, that's probably just a dream for me.
I definately want a lower level competition for the next round. I suggested level 16 b/c it was the last competition of '06, and I wanted to make it appropriately Grand Scale. Also, I think it is fun to occasionally build an optimized high level character w/ an over the top backstory. (DMs do it all the time; we call them BBEGs.) However, judging such characters is already proving very time consuming, so I think we'll probably be looking at a much simpler competition for the kick off to '07.
I was really impressed w/ the camaraderie this time around. Zherog, especially showed very good sportsmanship. I may even be able to forgive him for using the new stat block layout that confused me so badly in HC4. HC5 had the best amount of discussion going back and forth that I've seen thus far, and the author/teacher/DM inside of me really enjoyed seeing that discussion. (Granted, you could have been bluffing me since I haven't actually read any of it yet... For all I know, you just put spoiler blocks with Fancy Titles in your posts, but the only thing inside was the phrase: "Hey, judges, we told you not to read this!!")
Well, let's get some theme discussion up and running:
Here are some possible themes for future HC competitions. Judges and Competitors alike, what do you think?
*Abberations
*Urban Characters (I like Magocrats Idea)
*Fiend-Related Characters (Wizards is going Fiend heavy in it's material right now... might be fun to delve into those characters.)
*Lore Specialists
*Nobility
*War Refugees
*Fallen/Tormented Heros (Another Favorite Category of Mine)
*Undead-Related Characters (i.e.: I'm playing a ghost!)
*Rebels
*Oriental Style Characters (Not crazy about this one, but it might be fun.)
*Fools/Humorous Characters (That would still be viable in a campaign)
*Alignment-Paragons (i.e.: Create the best example of Lawful that you can.)
*Racial Paragons (i.e.: Create the best Dwarf that you can)
*No PrC Competition (This might be a modifier to another, larger theme, but have a competition where you have a lot of material, but there are no PrCs allowed.)
What are your ideas?
*Urban Characters (I like Magocrats Idea)
Actually, that was edwardsobel's idea. Just noting. My idea was the planar theme, and my Dungeon Master's idea was aberrations. Perhaps you two could get along very nicely, he just loves aberrations. His name is tryco on the boards.
However, I think that the planes may mesh well with your suggested fiend theme. Perhaps you could even restrict it to the Outer Planes, but that would make the competition a bit bound to the Planescape setting, which may or may not be a good idea.
Perhaps you could even restrict it to the Outer Planes, but that would make the competition a bit bound to the Planescape setting, which may or may not be a good idea.
I don't think you'd be limited to Planescape. WotC has two planar-themed books, Manual of the Planes and Planar Handbook, and both have interesting stuff in them. Then there's the Horizon Walker prestige class from the DMG, who gets planar travel stuff from levels 6-10.
And that's just the obvious stuff.
***
For everybody saying a level 16 background is long and difficult: I disagree. I think the problem is a lot of people assume your background has to detail every single detail of your character's life up until that point. And I, at least, don't think that's the case.
A background (again, all in my opinion) needs to let your DM know who your character is. It needs to include events that shaped his/her life. Some of those will be good things, and some of those will be tragedies. I'll come back to my own character again.
The character herself was pretty straightforward. 10 levels of cleric, followed by 6 levels of contemplative. That probably helped me write a simpler background. I wanted her, from the start, to be a cleric of Bahamut. But I didn't think it made sense for a 1st level elf to serve as a cleric of Bahamut. So I came up with the whole "Bahamut foresaw the need for her, and worked out a deal with his buddies in the elven pantheon" thing. In the setup I devised, the first nine or even 10 levels aren't too relavent - they gave her some experiences, certainly. And they helped her grow in power. But she really becomes a character when she gets her calling from Bahamut to travel to the desert and meet the dragon. It's at that point that the events in her life really begin to shape who she is. She makes a dear friend, she meets a god, she fights evil dragons, and she loses a battle that costs her friend her life.
When I read a background - either from my players or for these contests - there's a few key things I look for:
- Most importantly, you need to explain how you got to be where you are. Your feats and classes and so on should make sense after reading your history.
- I want to know something about your family - your real family, or a group of people you love like family. You can tell me they're all dead, just don't be surprised when I use them anyway. Your dead mother may visit you in a vision, or your dead brother might be somebody you encounter when you travel to another plane. Or you might get word that your father's ghost is haunting your home village, and you're the only one who can put his spirit to rest.
- Unless you're the world's biggest
, you have at least one friend or ally. I want to know about that person. - Even if you're Mother Theresa, you have an enemy. I want to know about that person, too.
And that's pretty much it. Number 1 is probably going to fill the most space. But it doesn't need to be a copy of War and Peace to be useful to both you and your DM.
Alright - I'll get off my soapbox now.
*Abberations
*Fiend-Related Characters (Wizards is going Fiend heavy in it's material right now... might be fun to delve into those characters.)
*Undead-Related Characters (i.e.: I'm playing a ghost!)
These are all fine, but having just done a "creature-themed" contest, I'd prefer if these sat around in the wings and waited for a few contests first.
*Lore Specialists
*Nobility
*War Refugees
*Urban Characters
These would all be interesting. Some of them would, I think, result in many characters that were similar. The real challenge would be to develop something unique.
*Fallen/Tormented Heros (Another Favorite Category of Mine)
This one could be an interesting starting point for a very cool idea that I'm going to hold onto and bring up to judges for HC6 when it comes around. I'm even going to make a note for myself so I don't forget it.
*Rebels
Another good possibility.
*Oriental Style Characters (Not crazy about this one, but it might be fun.)
I don't have oriental adventure, but with a lot of the OA-themed classes appearing in the Complete books, this would have some possibilities.
*Fools/Humorous Characters (That would still be viable in a campaign)
Interesting.
*Alignment-Paragons (i.e.: Create the best example of Lawful that you can.)
*Racial Paragons (i.e.: Create the best Dwarf that you can)
Potential - especially if you toss in limits. For example, create the best "dwarf" you can without using fighter levels. This might be a good place to bring in some alternate material - the racial books, the alignment books, and so on.
*No PrC Competition (This might be a modifier to another, larger theme, but have a competition where you have a lot of material, but there are no PrCs allowed.)
It has potential both ways, I think. By default, the contest would need to be in the middle to high levels. I mean, creating a 3rd level contest where one of the rules is "no prestige classes" doesn't really accomplish much. :D
What are your ideas?
- Con artist - somebody who uses non-combat techniques to get what they need/want
- Bloodlines - create a character using a bloodline from Unearthed Arcana. As I recall, the information is available on d20srd.org for those who don't have the book (but I can't check since my employer blocks that site)
- Exotic weapon user - a character who makes use of an exotic weapon as his primary weapon choice
- Use class X - similar to our monk contest. Pick a class and require at least one level in that class, and at least one level in another base class.
- common man turned hero - make a character with at least one level in an NPC class
- Epic - the epic rules scare me; but at some point (way off, since we just did level 16) I think we should touch on those rules any way. Not deep into epic levels, just somewhere in the low 20's
- non-humanoid - You can be any race except those with the humanoid type.
There's a few ideas that have rattled around in my head before.
And yes, Fallen/Tormented Heros is something that I'd really like to see in a future competition. It makes for excellent storytelling.
Anyone else have suggestions?
Fallen Hero - Good turned Evil
The Evil Good Guy - The one who goes to any lengths for Good
Hero of Extreme Circumstance - The Hero that doesn't really seem like a hero but seems to do good when push comes to shove.
Street Thieves - Oi! You little buggers get back 'ere!
Lone Wolves - Characters that tend to go solo even when in groups
Natural Born Leaders - Characters with Leadership
Tribesman - Characters that belong to a tribe
Twins - Build two characters that seem to reflect or support each other
Improviser - Example: The party chef that's skilled in the art of killing with frying pans
The Good Assassin - Bend the rules on this one
Diplomat - Words, not weapons
Disability - Character with one or more disabilities.
The Cursed/Diseased - Characters that have or know someone with a permanent disease or curse that they must seek adventure to be rid of it
Inspired - Build characters based on other characters from any source (i.e. Link from Zelda)
Inspired 2 - Characters that have an idol that they seek to live up to
Puppeteer - Works and orchestrates events from the sidelines
The Silent Type - A Hero with a terrible/terrifying/horrible/shaming/embarrassing/etc. secret that they hope to be rid of by adventuring.
A lot of the suggestions here, for example, are professions. These have included the Divine Servant and Gladiator from past competitions, and could also include Lore Specialists, Nobility, War Refugees, Fallen Heros, Rebels, Fools, Con-artists, Exotic-Weapon wielders, Redeemed Heros, Evil-Good Heros, Circumstantial Heros, Street Thieves, Lone Wolves, Leaders, Tribesmen, Improvisers, Diplomats, Puppeteers, and Silent Types. There seems to be no shortage of ideas on this front.
Some more are based on a type of monster. We're still going through a dragon-themed contest, and there seem to be fiends, undeads, and aberrations in line as well. These themes are my favorite, by the way. :D
An entire category Zherog mentioned is the Class type, which we've done a Monk-themed one on. NPC-class could also be included here. This is different from the professions in that we're restricting entries to a certain class (whether the entry multiclassed out of it or not)
Then we have the environment-based themes: Urban-based has already been mentioned; Underdark-, Ocean-, Frostfell- and Desert-based could also become open to us sometime in the future. Perhaps out-there environments like the sky or the different planes could feature.
One category that JasonOrlandoHawk mentioned is Race-based. We could have every entry be a halfling or a dwarf or an orc or kobold even.
And then we have these random themes that don't really have anything to do with anyone else. Alignments could have their own category, I suppose, but the others (Like No-PRC's, Bloodlines, Epic, Non-Humanoid, Disabilitied, Cursed, Diseased, Inspired & Twined) are really out there in their own field.
If we pick a different category each time, we could spread the variety of our contests out and keep everyone interested, with the minor disadvantage of having to argue what theme goes where.
Prerequisites to qualify as 'lore themed' might be at least 3 knowledge, craft, or perform skills
But then again, it's the judges' call, and I'm confident that they will make the next competition a good one, albeit a little less intimidating to enter with a high level requirement. ('cause I realize that it isn't necessarily difficult to make a high-level character, like Zherog has been telling us all along, but it's merely intimidating to make a character of such a high level.)
('cause I realize that it isn't necessarily difficult to make a high-level character, like Zherog has been telling us all along, but it's merely intimidating to make a character of such a high level.)
well, to be fair, a higher level character can be complex. In a real game, I'm probably unlikely to play a cleric 10/contemplative 6. I'm instead likely to look at mixing in classes such as Seeker of the Misty Isle (Travel domain at 1st level), Sacred Exorcist (
), and maybe even a fourth prestige class. I'd work to get into one of those classes as early as possible. At level 11, I'd take a contemplative level and maybe I'd take second level of that PrC, but then I'd switch to another one.So yeah - high level characters can be quite complex. What I've been saying is that a background for a high level character doesn't need to rival War and Peace in length in order for it to be a good, useful background.
Anyway - there's definitely some interesting ideas for future contests in this thread. And I'm sure eligible judges have their own ideas they aren't quite sharing - I know I have one idea.
I'm thrilled to see these contests getting more and more contestants each time. That's totally awesome!
Maybe some of the others can find links in the mean time and provide them here (b/c now that I think about it, this thread should probably provide those links as well...).
- Hero Craftsman #1
- Hero Craftsman #2: Divine Servant
- Hero Craftsman #3: Gladiators!
- Hero Craftsman #4: Welcome to the Monastery
- Hero Craftsman #5: Year of the Dragons
[jokish]You want easily accessible links? We'll give you easily accessible links! And on top of that, we'll package them in a numbered list, so that the list tells you not once, but twice what the number of the Hero Craftsman was! Now just for the low, low, price of... a couple of minutes of my time![/jokish]
Now, I think someone should put this in their signature. Perhaps one of the judges? That would definitely make the most sense, and it would allow you to instantly hop from one Hero Craftsman to another, through one of the judges' signatures. Anyways, I hope that's good enough for you.
aberrationsif this is the next, i'll be in it.
i've got some pretty good ideas
)Bump. :D
Background:
- Bloodlines
- Common
- Nobility
- Oriental
- Planes
- Streets
- Tribal
- War refugees
Class:
- Character class
- Epic characters
- Exotic weapon users
- No prestige classes
Environment:
- Arctic
- Desert
- Forest
- Ocean
- Planes
- Underdark
- Urban
Personality:
- Alignment
- Con artist
- Diplomats
- Fallen heroes
- Foolish
- Leaders
- Improvisers
- Rebellious
- Redeemed heroes
- Sagacious
- Silent
Races or monsters:
- Aberrations
- Angels or fiends
- Non-humanoids
- Racial paragons
- Undead
Additional requirements:
- Cursed
- Disabled
- Diseased
- Inspired (in-character)
- Inspired (real life inspiration)
- Twins
Meh, as long as I don't have anything to do, I might as well make a useful contribution to the Hero Craftsman legacy. Zherog, may I ask you to put this in your first post as well?
Well, perhaps it might be useful to put it in an sblock, because it takes up so much space. Maybe this'll prove to be of use for the judges!
The most of the credit goes to you, TheChilliGod, and FRRC; you've compiled the lion's share of the list, I've merely compiled the list and gave it some order. I want that new Hero Craftsman conpetition to start as soon as possible, so I should help as much as I can to achieve that goal.Thats sounds a little awkward. Theres no real objective, meaning theres no goal for the judges to compare the characters to. All the judges will have their own interpretation of the picture too.
Well to some extent the picture picked can narrow things down immensely. If the man/woman/random brute thingie in the pic is wearing heavy armor and carrying a double handed weapon, or is in a robe and blasting energy or a spell of some sort from his/her/it's hands that rules out a lot of things immediately.
As a judge, I don't have access to either Incarnum or ToM stuff.
Tome of Magic... well...
Vestiges... :thumbsdow
Shadow Magic...
Truename Magic...
Then again, I've been rather disappointed by a lot of the "new spellcasting material" released in the last few years. I'll give Wizards their due, however. Shadow magic was well done.
I think the boards are a wonderful resource to people who are playing this game. I'm a big proponent of helping out on these forums. It's why I continue to serve as a Game Master over on the Castle of Fun, and it's why I continue to help people with problems on the Boards Business forum. And I think contests such as this help focus things in a bit, and really give people assistance in making living, breathing character. I've always been a supporter of forums based contests - Character Ops has 'em from time to time, there's the Master DM Competition on What's a DM to Do?, and there's the Drunk DM Competition on the same forum. Having a contest for PCs only seemed natural.
The format of the contest changed significantly between HC1 and HC2. HC1 didn't have a theme - it was "create a character, here's the rules." HC1 was also supposed to have a "second round" where we were going to actually attempt to DM each character through a small encounter, and then judge how well the character overcame the various challenges. That proved just about impossible to implement, though - between the medium and our laziness. :D
So we scrapped Round 2, and just moved on to HC2. I suggested a theme to give all the participants a bit of a guiding hand in creating their character. And it's sort of evolved since then.
I didn't post anything much until that threat in the first HC. And I meant threat. At least people are looking at Hero Craftsman now, and I don't have to post threats.
My motivation? I judge because it's a good outlet. I'm a critic at heart. I love being able to criticize constructively on the work of others, regardless of how good I am on the topic. I love it when I get to be a judge. Except when I get judged on my judging by those who I've just judged justly. Which happened often during the contests before HC that I judged.
So, when some user who I've seen participate in a few other old Player contests that came before HC which, IMO, were not all that well organized and poorly judged (tends to happen when you let slip on who's "winning" before you even finish entry time), he posted a contest of his own, asking for suggestions and judges. And I took the bait eagerly. A great opportunity it was, and look what it turned into!
Another contest, and one that looks like it's here to stay, despite its original creator's regrettable absense.
Whee.
Good Question.
Maybe I'm just so boring that I have nothing else to do. ;)
Partially, it fits my personality. I'm the type of person who has several different interests and activities in my life, and I typically like having a "slightly hectic" schedule b/c it keeps me moving. So, in part, I participate to have something to participate in.
However, Hero Craftsman is also a nice blend of several of my interests. First, I am a minister, which leads me to be a student of religion/myth/story and it's influence on human behavior & ethics. While I don't necessarily consider this practicing my faith, questions about things like alignment (and alignment changes) are a kind of "food-for-thought-lite." HC may not provide the kind of debates you'd expect from Descartes, Kant, or (dare I mention his name) Neitzche, but the stories provided run in the vein of questions I find entertaining.
Also, I'm an educator. While it is clear that there are obvious correlations between Teaching and Judging the HC Contests, my willingness to participate/judge can be summed up in two main teacher personality traits. First, teachers love to teach b/c teachers are addicted to the feeling of helping others improve. Second, teachers are keenly aware of the fact that teaching others often sharpens your own skills/abilities. So, by judging the HC contests, I'm helping others (which always feels good), and improving my own abilities as a DM and Player.
Speaking of which, Jennibert and Zherog: You two have contributed quite a bit to my knowledge of the inner workings of the D&D rules/mechanics. I wish I could remember where the original quotes were, so I could cite them for you, but sadly I can't find them. However, thank you for helping me improve.
Finally, I'm an aspiring writer. Part of being a successful writer is being a good reader. By exposing myself to multiple stories, characters, and situations, I'm really just adding material to the reference library in my mind for when I write. While I'd never be so brazen as to steal a character from the HC series for one of my stories, I'm definitely gaining usable pointers in the art of writing.
So, in a nutshell, I really just have too much free time and need something to do...
First, teachers love to teach b/c teachers are addicted to the feeling of helping others improve.
I thought the first reason teachers love to teach is because they get summers off? :P :P
One question I have for the judges: If a judge turns in a score, and then, after comments are posted, errors in their judging are brought to light, do scores get redetermined? I noticed at least once that a judge incorrectly ruled something regarding my character, and I suspect it cost me points, but after it was pointed out, I don't know if my score went up or not. It probably wasn't a big difference, but it would be nice.
Some way to contest rulings would be nice, sometimes... But I do like to be able to defend myself, honestly.
I thought the first reason teachers love to teach is because they get summers off? :P :P
A myth! A myth I tell you! Curse you Summer "Professional Development Courses!!" Curse You!!!
@ Mercurius:
As far as I know, no recalculation has ever been done. However, from the perspective of the judging that I, personally, have done, I have never been called on a major point issue. The couple of times I've been called on the issue, the actual item in question was worth .25 points. Items worth .5 or more on my judging sheets have never been questioned. Thus, if recalculation were done for my items, it would amount to (at best) a .083% improvement in the person's score. It would probably not create a major difference in the overall scores.
I suspect that any scoring errors by the other judges fall in the same category.
I doubt that any "position-changing" errors would occur, but if that were ever in doubt, the judges would likely recalculate the scores to be certain.
I also participate because, like JasonOrlandoHawk, I'm an aspiring writer. I love stories. I always make sure to read all of the character backgrounds in the competitions even when I'm not judging, just for the fun of it, to see what other people have come up with, and possibly borrow some aspects for the other characters bouncing around in my head. (Not that I've purposefully done that yet...with the exception of Mercurius's current entry, but there's other factors that are involved in that....)
And I get a perverse glee out of judging and finding mechanical errors. Mercurius can tell you that I sit hear and laugh out loud when I find errors. Not because they're funny (don't take this as an insult anyone!), but just because I found it, and I'm happy that I've managed to notice the error. I'm a relatively new roleplayer (well, compared to the majority of my RPing friends...), and so the fact that I've mastered the mechanics to the point that I can locate such things makes me feel warm and fuzzy.
And thanks for the compliment, Jason. Glad to know I could help. And I will just thank Zherog for his rules knowledge and extensive comments, which have helped me figuring things out as well.
The competition simply gives me a forum for something I do anyways - win-win :D
Oh yes, I'm also a born critic :D
Another idea for a HC competition. Design a character using a varient, either your own or from UA. Present the arguements as to why such a character should be included in the game and then design the character incorporating these "house rules" you've talked the DM into accepting.
All the best,
Nani?
I've added HC6 to the list. I've also added a master list of eligible judges to the end of the first post.
Chatter specific to HC6 should stay there. Comments, ideas, questions, suggestions, or criticisms about the contest in general go here.
Abberations-Theme, High Level (16-20), Allow Lords of Madness, Heroes of Horror, and other "Frightening" books.
Granted, I'm going to operate under the assumption that we will not see that contest any time soon. I'm not to concerned.
Actually, the last two contests have been themed based on the time of year the contest took place. HC#5 closed out "the year of the dragons" at wizards w/ a Dragon's contest. HC#6 followed the current weather trends in the Northern Hemisphere and buried the characters in snow.
So, if we follow that trend, we would need to look at what possible themes would fit best in February. Two particularly strong inspirations stand out immediately (to me, at least).
1. Valentine's Day: The single most pathetic day in the D&D gaming community. It's the day where we must face the truth that, once again, we won't get to go out on a date. Despite that, Love is a very powerful motivating force, and can really drive a story. A theme built around romance could (if handled maturely) provide some excellent characters.
2. African-American/Black History Month (I do not know the official title, please forgive me): The struggle against slavery, racism, and discrimination were some of the most dramatic moments in American and World history. Battles are still being fought today against these very issues. These ideas could also be a driving force behind a D&D campaign. Many of the D&D races, even the good-aligned ones, practice a sort of discrimination that can range from mild to severe. (Think Dwarves and Elves.) This could be another interesting theme.
I do see one potential problem w/ these themes: maturity. While this hasn't been a big problem here, these themes should be handled maturely, at the risk of starting some nasty fights. I have seen places on these boards where such topics would not be and have not been handled maturely. We have a good crew of competitors, so I'm not overly worried about someone submitting offensive/derisive characters, but it's still a possible issue. A more light-hearted contest could be in order.
Any other suggestions?
If it becomes immature, well we know what not to do. After all, there have been dud MDMC's. They are not repeated and a lesson is learned.
Or how about a poll with four or so campaign scenarios and people do a weighted vote.
All the Best,
Nani?
now. This is a good time to discuss Hero Craftsman in general. It's also a good time for an eligible judge to volunteer to run HC8, and for other eligible judges to volunteer their services. I'll be sitting out HC8, unless there's a shortage of judges.
I really wasn't wanting to step back into judging so soon, but Zherog seems to need a break (which I understand), and jennibert has a wedding to focus on (which is very understandable, best wishes), so I guess I will throw my hat into the ring as a judge for the next HC contest.
I will even offer to coordinate, assuming no other eligible judge (including the winner of the current HC) wishes to take the job. I will offer the warning that I am applying (and testing) for Graduate work, which could eat into my time for judging. However, I should be able to pull enough time together for judging.
Any other judges want to throw their hat into the ring? Anyone else want to challenge me for the "Coordinator" position?
Because that'd be awesome.
Either way, I still don't think that I've got around how to successfully judge for fun and profit, so I'm keeping out until the one after next at least.
Of course, since I've got about as much going on in my life as an empty sack has stuff in it, I could be persuaded. But I'm usually stubborn as a goat, so don't count on it. ;)
I might perform better next time, but I'll freely admit that I often work ~50 hours a week at two jobs, so free time for me is a bit more limited.
That said, exactly what does the coordinator position entail?
If any decisions need to be made, it falls to the coordinator. For example, when I set a deadline (too late) for judges to get me scores in this contest.
You're more than welcome to continue judging, if you so desire.
Anyways, to all eligible judges: If no one contends with me for the coordinator position, then I will be sending out messages sometime tonight, after I get out of creative ministries practice. You have until then to steal the job from me. (I won't complain, I'm just in a hurry to get things under way.)
I've got some ideas kicking around in my head, so be ready. I'm anxious to start judging again.
Comments, questions, suggestions, etc about the contest in general should go here; stuff specific to HC8 should still go over there.
The case that appeared was with my entry, the Ranger / Justiciar, where the use of Urban Tracking was not allowed to be used to fulfil the requirements for Track. Although fairly explained as to why this was not allowed, I felt it had (and may do in future events) prevented or reduced a participants entry merely for roleplay or mechanic standards. I know one feat in that instance was not alot, but there was room for say a bit more roleplay and ease of obtaining Justiciar. And whats to say that in future events, something bigger may occur.
Just something to consider maybe in future events when similar events may occur when suing Varient Rules.
I'm not sure how well these would work, but I'd be interested in trying.
This is a suggestion for a HC topic. It is based on something I have struggled with in past HCs, and I suspect other have as well. Namely, our entry is supposed to 'play well with others' (be able to fit in well with an adventuring party) but it can be difficult to create a character that is not a solo-hero without creating the rest of the party. So my thought is either create an entire party (which would be a whole lot of work) or to provide a party that the entries must then 'complete'.
I'm not sure how well these would work, but I'd be interested in trying.
Perhaps the judges could provide a handful of party members for the entrants to pick from for their own adventuring group. No full mechanics, necessarily. Just something like
"Grable Thanit, human rogue, skilled in lock picking and sleight of hand. Flighty and self-interested, he likes to make a quick buck and has few qualms about it. CN." Rather than leaving just one niche to be filled, the entrants could pick from pretty much any, and select a party from those provided by the judges.
Though, that does sound like a lot of work for the judges to deal with, too...
How's this for a suggestion: Antihero!
This is a suggestion for a HC topic. It is based on something I have struggled with in past HCs, and I suspect other have as well. Namely, our entry is supposed to 'play well with others' (be able to fit in well with an adventuring party) but it can be difficult to create a character that is not a solo-hero without creating the rest of the party. So my thought is either create an entire party (which would be a whole lot of work) or to provide a party that the entries must then 'complete'.
I'm not sure how well these would work, but I'd be interested in trying.
My only reason to hesitate here is that, as judges, we want as much variety as possible from the entries. Thus, a contest with the rules "Theme A, make a Skill-Monkey," would turn the entries into cardboard cutouts of one another.
However, we can probably modify the Hints section to help with this. The easiest way might be to link some of the recent Wizards articles on class roles. It may even help to have a "character role" discussion here (or elsewhere) as a resource for potential contestants.
Jason's point is a very good one, although I think Mercurius' suggestion answers it, at least partly.
Perhaps what is needed is just to make a party along with the character, but describe the party members as minimally as Jason continually reminds us he wants cohorts to be described.
Of course, then it may become a little difficult to distinguish between a cohort and a fellow hero.
Still, that's more of a "From the Contestant's Perspective" suggestion. What the judges can/should do is a little more difficult to decide.
Providing a "party" to join: I'm in favor of not going with this. I think it either creates a metric assload of work for the judges (by creating a bunch of sample characters), or becomes meaningless (because the judges say, "The party you're joining has three of these five: a melee warrior, a ranged warrior, a cleric, a wizard, and a rogue).
To me, the whole concept of "Does this character fit into an existing party?" is really pretty simple. If you're background looks something like this:
[indent]Bob is a loner. He hates other people, and doesn't have any friends. He's chaotic, and never cooperates with others. Bob is such a badass, he doesn't need to work with others anyway. He'll attempt to do everything himself, no matter what the other talents in the group are.[/indent]
That's going to score pretty low on the "plays nice with others" scale. We want interesting personalities, certainly; but we also want a character who will "fit" in with a group. Bob might be the most awesome Jack-of-all-Trades ever - but if he can't work in a group setting, it doesn't mean much. Moody is OK; angsty, while a bit cliche, is OK; anti-social, however, is a problem.
***
Item Crafting: There's two points here, I'll hit the easiest one first.
I think the rule needs to be slightly revised; one of the intents of the rule (I swiped it from Dungeon magazine) is to avoid the whole "paying XP" thing. I don't think the rule should apply to things that don't have an XP cost (everburning torch, the Craft skill, etc). That's my opinion on that matter.
On the more complicated aspect: The rule, as used by Dungeon (which I believe they got from WotC, possibly even from a core book - I'll check), is intended to apply the 75% cost to any item makable by that character - whether or not he/she/it made it. It doesn't matter whether or not the character can meet the pre-reqs of the item; all that matters is the character has the appropriate item creation feat for the item.
The rule is intended to simplify things. If I have a cleric who has Craft Magic Arms and Armor, I don't have to determine whether he crafted that shield or found it someplace else. And pre-reqs aren't a way to cover it, because I can simply find another person to assist me in the crafting to get around that aspect. Otherwise, people are going to work that into their background.
[indent]Brother Bob spent two years living at the temple. During that time, High Priest Bill assisted Bob in making the shield of uber-protection. Bob and Bill talked a lot about philosophy during those two years, and Bob still cherishes the lessons he learned from High Priest Bill, and refers back to them in his mind whenever he's confronted with a philosophical conundrum.
After leaving the temple, Brother Bob went out into the world to slay evil. While on the coast, Brother Bob came to know a powerful archmage named Mike. Archmage Mike was able to help Brother Bob make his +5 vorpal undead bane longsword. During their time in the workshop, Brother Bob and Archmage Mike talked a lot about magic theory. Brother Bob still cherishes those conversations, and refers back to them in his mind whenever he's confronted with a magical conundrum.[/indent]
You can always weave somebody into your background at some point that could help you fulfill the pre-reqs. But why, if the only reason you're doing so is for the reduced cost? High Priest Bill and Archmage Mike make fine additions to a character background - if they're there for legit reasons, rather than just as a means to fulfill a pre-req.
So I would like to see the rule go back to its original intent.
Though I would like to suggest one alteration to it. I think it ought to be clear that the 75% thing only applies to the cost of crafting the item. For example, if I'm making a suit of +1 full plate, the 75% should only apply to the 1000 gp base price of the enhancement bonus - not to the cost of the masterwork full plate armor.
***
And one final point. I agree with FRRC about alternate rules and "obvious" house rules. I would like to point out, however, that it isn't always obvious at the time you write it. So while it would've been cool and reasonable for the judges to say, "The alternate ranger's urban tracking ability can be used as the Track feat to meet any pre-reqs," it's also reasonable that they didn't think of it at the time.
I think if a question like that comes up before anybody has posted a character, it's totally OK to tweak the rules and put that in. I do agree with Jason, though, that once one character is posted it's generally unfair to make that sort of ruling.
So there's some of my thoughts on recent issues.
[thread=839939]Linky[/thread]
The gist of it: a thread can only be bumped once in a 48 hour period, regardless of who is doing the bump. So, to avoid getting any HC threads closed down, everybody needs to be mindful of this.
If you really think a thread needs to be "bumped" from page 2 or 3, find something useful and on-topic to say - ask a question, compliment a previous entry, whatever. But let's try and avoid pure "bumps" so we don't get ourselves in any sort of trouble.
If you really think a thread needs to be "bumped" from page 2 or 3, find something useful and on-topic to say - ask a question, compliment a previous entry, whatever.
I think this statement was insightful and witty.
Possible suggestion. If you're having trouble focusing your character, but don't want to blur the line between party and cohort, you could include an adventuring party in your background, but write them out part of the way through. That would leave your character searching for new companions, with a few allies at the DM's disposal. The only person still following you around would be your cohort, if you have one.
See, I've done this. I did this with A'Line, my monk. She had been a part of an adventuring party, but left it when her interests diverged from the rest of her companions. And it was commented on as a negative. I believe it was something along the lines of "having already quit one adventuring group, I don't think I'd be ready to trust her in another." Which basically leaves the potential "plays well with others" to be more "plays well with others, up until they all die horrible and untimely deaths which he/she/it miraculously escapes."
Of course, this will probably vary from judge to judge, but it's worth noting that, having actually taken your advice preemptively, it was counted against me.
Stuff about item crafting rules
As to Zherog's interpretation of the item creation rule, I just generally disagree. First of all, the intent was never clearly explained until it came up in the contest I was judging, AFTER judging was complete. To me, it seems perfectly logical that you have to cover all the requirements to make a magic item. If you're prohibited school is abjuration, you shouldn't get a discount on a cloak of resistance +1; You wouldn't in a normal game.
And just writing in a friendly NPC shouldn't cut it either, because I know it wouldn't pass muster with some judges if I wrote a friendly wizard into my background who let me copy from his spellbook without charging me (so, it's just 100 gp per spell level for page costs, not an additional "buy the scroll or pay hireling services").
The spellbook thing came up in a prior contest (not with regards to me, I'll admit) and it was very clearly stated that you had to pay for the privilege of copying from another wizard's book. If you have to pay to add spells to your book *on top of* the regular costs to put those spells there, you certainly should have to cover the bases with item creation.
I do agree that it shouldn't cover nonmagical items, and that it probably should not count the nonmagical enhancements to a weapon or armor, but if it's not going to cover that, it needs to be clearly defined and codified.
--------------
Lastly, as a general question, why are some judges ruling that, say, a cloak of elvenkind or boots of striding and springing add encumbrance? They may provide a weight for them, but they do for a traveler's outfit, too, which is weightless while worn. Are boots of the winter lands that much heavier than the boots that originally came with my starting clothes? Is that cloak really adding more weight when the outfit I had originally ignored the weight of its cloak? It seems illogical to me to assume that those weights matter when the weight of the clothes one wears don't at all other times, and I'd like an explanation of the logic behind judging that way, or I'd like to come to an agreement not to. It seems very inane to me.
As to Zherog's interpretation of the item creation rule, ...
It's not my interpretation, though. I wrote the rule, and so therefore I darn well know the intent of it. The intent is to simplify things - if you have the item creation feat, the cost is 75%. You don't need to check pre-reqs, a contestant doesn't need to write goofy NPCs into their backstory, and so on.
It's not my interpretation, though. I wrote the rule, and so therefore I darn well know the intent of it. The intent is to simplify things - if you have the item creation feat, the cost is 75%. You don't need to check pre-reqs, a contestant doesn't need to write goofy NPCs into their backstory, and so on.
So, then, why do wizards have to pay both for pages in their spellbook and the privilege of copying from another wizard, when the charge there is actually stated as being an entirely circumstantial thing?
I understand that your intent was to make it somewhat attractive for item creation feats to be taken, but I don't think that giving someone a big discount on items they couldn't even have crafted is right. It's like someone getting Two Weapon Fighting with a Dexterity of only 14. They don't meet the requirements, and so they shouldn't be able to take advantage of it.
Otherwise, suddenly we're ignoring requirements for one certain thing (something that gives casters an effective advantage, mind you, which some would argue they already have in most cases) while still vehemently enforcing requirements everywhere else.
I agree that the rule helps make item creation more attractive. I just disagree that the caster should be able to own scrolls of fireball at 75% off if he can't even scribe them himself.
I'll grant that it's not your interpretation, though the way the rule was written, it was certainly open to individual judges' interpretations before. I'm curious to know what other contestants and judges think about the rule and its prerequisite or no-prerequisite components.
Also, added onto this, I'd think the "convienent background character who provides normally unavailable spells" should be addressed. Personally, if you intend to use an NPC to acquire spells that you normally couldn't cast so that you can create your item, then I believe that you should be paying "Spellcasting Services" as appropriate from the PHB each day that you use their services.
Frankly, if we want to make the rules on spellbooks apply, to a painful degree, then we should probably apply the rules on Magic Item creation to a painful degree. I personally think that the 75% rule is well written, b/c it keeps XP totals from becoming an issue in this contest (which would cause a rather severe headache).
Prerequisites exist for a reason. They aren't hard to check. I think that it is fair to say that they still apply.
Now that I've taken a position, just let me say...
Don't hurt me!I believe that pre-requisites should still stand, both in terms of spells/available and Caster Level for the effect.
Caster level is not a pre-req for item creation. The CLs listed in the books are the default for item.
I understand that your intent was to make it somewhat attractive for item creation feats to be taken...
No, that wasn't the intent at all. The intent was (and is) to simplify things.
If I make something, it costs me 50%.
If I buy something, it costs me 100%.
Rather than having everybody specify which they made and which they bought or found, the intent of the rule is to take the middle ground - 75%. In general theory, the cost differences should, therefore, average out.
Example: a 10th level enchanter with abjuration and evocation as her barred schools. She wants a cloak of resistance +2, headband of Intellect +2, gloves of Dexterity +2, and a necklace of fireballs (type III). She can't make the cloak (uses an abjuration) or necklace (uses an evocation).
Under the "standard" method (pay full price for things you buy or find, pay half for those you make):
Cloak of resistance +2: 4000gp (bought/found)
Headband of Intellect +2: 2000gp (made)
Gloves of Dexterity +2: 2000gp (made)
Necklace of fireballs: 4350gp (bought/found)
Total: 12,350 gp
Under "my" system (pay 75% for everything):
Cloak: 3000gp
Headband: 3000gp
Gloves of Dexterity: 3000gp
Necklace: 3262.5gp
Total: 12,262.5 gp
Under "your" method (pay 75% for the things you can make, full price for others):
Cloak: 4000gp
Headband: 3000gp
Gloves: 3000gp
Necklace: 4350gp
Total: 14,350 gp
The "pay 75% for everything" method gets closer to what it would cost in actual game play and it's far easier to judge. That's the intent of the rule - to not have to worry about item pre-reqs while still getting close to the right value of the gear. Can it be abused? Probably. So can a gajillion different rules in the game. I mean, just buy a candle of invocation and use gate to bring in an efreet for free wishes. That's legal, by the rules - but far more abusive than somebody getting a discount on a bunch of items they can't make.
And since we're not dealing in XP for this competition, but flat ECL, there should be some accounting for the costs aside from GP.
XP and time don't matter, though, so they're irrelevant to the issue of what it costs to make a magic item.
XP certainly do matter. Every item a crafter creates puts him that much further behind everyone else. It's an important distinction.
And, if I'm DMing, you can bet that time matters, too. Blowing off both as "not mattering" basically implies that players in normal games shouldn't be bothered with either as well. Is that how we should be running it now?
I'm talking about specifically in this contest, though. We don't track XP - we give you an ECL to start with, and that's that. Time doesn't matter - you can weave as much downtime as you need into your backstory.
In these contests all that matters is the cash - it's the only one of the three assets used in item creation that we track; and to that end 75% for everything gets the closest to what actual costs would be, and saves everybody time - both during character generation and judging.
RACES OF STONE
I have one suggestion for books:
RACES OF STONE
[color=red]Seconded, with bells and whistles!!![/color]
We have several judges who are frequently unable to judge (and that's perfectly fine since this is an optional job), but we are starting to run thin on available judges again, and the list of eligible judges hasn't grown in a while.
I propose that the rules be changed as follows:
"A contestant who wins a Gold Medal is added to the list of eligible judges as a reward. Additionally, any contestant who wins any combination of three (3) silver or bronze medals is also added to the list of eligible judges as a reward (pending confirmation by existing judges). [Continue w/ the statement that judging is entirely optional, etc...]"
Judges, what do you think? I, personally, would like to widen the field of eligible judges. That, or, maybe we could institute some sort of Honor System. Something to the effect:
"Eligible judges may enter future HC contests and compete as normal. However, any time an eligible judge successfully earns a Gold Medal, they will refrain from competing in a new HC competition until such time as a new judge has been added to the pool of eligible judges."
I mention these ideas b/c, primarily, judging is a lot of work, and the same limited crew of people are performing the task over and over again.
Anyways, your thoughts?
Jason
For the eligible judges, I wonder if perhaps rather than 3 silvers and/or bronzes it should be something like 6 points with silvers worth 2 points and bronzes worth 1 or 1.5.
The following rules change suggestion has been mentioned previously, but I think that it is time we seriously consider changing the rules for how to qualify as a judge.
We have several judges who are frequently unable to judge (and that's perfectly fine since this is an optional job), but we are starting to run thin on available judges again, and the list of eligible judges hasn't grown in a while.
I propose that the rules be changed as follows:
"A contestant who wins a Gold Medal is added to the list of eligible judges as a reward. Additionally, any contestant who wins any combination of three (3) silver or bronze medals is also added to the list of eligible judges as a reward (pending confirmation by existing judges). [Continue w/ the statement that judging is entirely optional, etc...]"
Judges, what do you think? I, personally, would like to widen the field of eligible judges. That, or, maybe we could institute some sort of Honor System. Something to the effect:
Anyways, your thoughts?
Jason
(Or in other words, YES!)
As someone that would be added to the list of eligile judges I am perfectly okay with it and would be willing to judge for next one since a large number of current judges will not able to. However, if Races of Stone is allowed then I might make an entry even if it would get DQ'd. Dwarves and Goliaths for the win! And Gnomes ain't half bad either.
For the eligible judges, I wonder if perhaps rather than 3 silvers and/or bronzes it should be something like 6 points with silvers worth 2 points and bronzes worth 1 or 1.5.
Or silvers worth 3 pts and bronze worth 2?
Or silvers worth 3 pts and bronze worth 2?
That's good, but would it stay at 6 points, or go to somethings else? 8 maybe?
I hope that was intelligible.
1 Gold Medal
2 Silver Medals
3 Bronze Medals
Way I figure, Gold Medal or Any three medals is easiest to keep track of, but the above suggestion could work as well (w/ the possible clause: "2 Bronze Medals=1 Silver Medal."). Personally, even if I don't judge all of the upcoming competitions, I still intend NOT to enter another HC competition until a new judge joins the panel.
Another issue on the "Eligible Judge" topic: If we change the rules, when do they take effect? Immediately or at the beginning of the next HC competition? (Important, b/c it determines who is eligible to judge this time around.)
Also, Z has sent this issue to all the judges, but we may as well discuss the issue here.
Currently, we allow 15 minutes to edit an entry after posting, but that has caused many entries to be disqualified by a very narrow time window. Z proposes that the editing window be extended to 30 minutes.
I agree with that change. Anyone else have some thoughts?
Lastly, I'm trying to gather a consensus on the HC#9 thread, and I may as well do the same here:
Which eligible judges are interested in helping run the next competition? If we can bring consensus on the issues listed above, I'd like to get the competition up next week.
And since I'm being so formal: I intend to coordinate the next HC competition, if no one challenges me for the spot. Since I think everyone should have the opportunity to do so if they desire, I'll let any eligible judge have the spot if they want it. I give any contender until Friday night to claim the coordinator position, at which time (assuming no challenges), I will assume everyone's letting me have it.
I believe that's everything that's an issue at the moment.
That's good, but would it stay at 6 points, or go to somethings else? 8 maybe?
If it stayed at six, that would make a judge anyone with 1 gold, 2 silvers or any three assorted medals.
I agree with the extended editing timing - 30 mins makes no difference since I wait until the end to judge.
I also suggest that since many of the existing judges aren't available to judge this time that we implement the new 'Judge Qualifying conditions' immediately.
If you need a third judge, though, I am available and willing.
One suggestion for books: RACES OF STONE
[color=red]Seconded, with bells and whistles!!![/color]
With all the talk of rules changes, lets not forget about this
1) Does a particular book make sense for the current theme? This is why the last contest had BoED and why the Frostfell contest had Frostburn.
2) Does at least one judge have access to the book, and if so is that judge willing to PM any information necessary to the other judges?
You can be fairly certain that you'll see the four main Complete books in every contest; the rest is what gets decided on a per contest basis.
The clever trapsmith, the well-supplied vigilante, the gageteer, all rather neat ideas. And custom items could be the stars of the show!
Just a thought.
But how about the next competition be based around the magic item compendium? A competition for monty haul?
I actually had an idea a lot like that that I wanted to trot out for April Fool's Day - but I forgot. It was going to be a "build a munchkin" idea. High point buy, extra cash to spend, and so on.
Choice of books isn't a rule. It's something decided upon by the judges. Two factors are involved in the decision:
1) Does a particular book make sense for the current theme? This is why the last contest had BoED and why the Frostfell contest had Frostburn.
2) Does at least one judge have access to the book, and if so is that judge willing to PM any information necessary to the other judges?
You can be fairly certain that you'll see the four main Complete books in every contest; the rest is what gets decided on a per contest basis.
I know. I was just being a little selfish. The talk of rules changes is important of course. I was just hoping we'd be able to use Races of Stone some time because I have it and haven't had much of an oppurtunity to use it.
I am quite aware it isn't a rule though
It just came off that way.A gold makes you a judge. Two silvers is equivalent to one gold; two bronze are equivalent to one silver. So any of the following combinations would make you eligible to judge:
- 1 gold
- 2 silver
- 4 bronze
- 1 silver and two bronze
Hey, the MDMC people have these lists, why can't we? :D
Bronze Medals
Hero Craftsman 1: DisposableHero_
Hero Craftsman 2: Martryn
Hero Craftsman 3: edwardsobel
Hero Craftsman 4: Mercurius
Hero Craftsman 5: Endarrion
Hero Craftsman 6: Haruspex & Nani?
Hero Craftsman 7: lazzmaniandevil
Hero Craftsman 8: edwardsobel
Hero Craftsman 9: Haruspex
Hero Craftsman 2: Martryn
Hero Craftsman 3: edwardsobel
Hero Craftsman 4: Mercurius
Hero Craftsman 5: Endarrion
Hero Craftsman 6: Haruspex & Nani?
Hero Craftsman 7: lazzmaniandevil
Hero Craftsman 8: edwardsobel
Hero Craftsman 9: Haruspex
Gold=6 points
Silver=3 points
Bronze=1.5 points
Best in Awards=No Value (but nice bragging rights)
You need 6 points to qualify as a judge.
As noted (thanks for the information, Chilli), that would add edwardsobel, Haruspex, and Kit_the_Odd to the eligible judges list, effective immediatly.
Do any of the standing judges object? If I don't hear an objection in the next 24 hours, I'll assume everyone's fine with that, and send out judging invitations for the next round of competition.
Also, I haven't heard a lot of talk about the other proposed rule change (extending the editing time limit to 30 minutes, rather than 15). Everyone I have seen comment on it seems in favor of the rule change, but if there are any objections, let me know.
Sorry to set time limits, but I'm anxious to get the next HC going ASAP.
Jason
I'll be sitting out the next several HCs. I have a few projects due at GenCon, and one is becoming a real time stealer.
At some point soon, I'll take Chili's lists and move them into the first post so they're easier to find.
But, in any case, my opinion is as follows:
On judging....looks good to me. I am in favor of expanding the judging panel. Additionally, since every time I don't judge I say "Oh, I probably won't enter this one" and then do...it means I'll feel less guilty about it. So, more judges, check.
On time limit....Doesn't matter to me. Even if I were to decide to judge before a competition is over (:rofl
, the thirty minute time limit makes no real difference over the fifteen minute one. Thirty minutes, check.On HC#10...I'd really rather not judge unless you're desperate. In fact, wedding preparations are probably going to mean that I shouldn't judge until October or so. They keep sneaking up on me, and are the reason I was the last judge to get my entries done. And while I am satisfied with the scores and outcome, I feel I didn't really give the characters the attention they deserved to have, especially considering that they were so well done. So, unless you're planning a low-level competition and are really desperate, I'm probably out for a while.
On books....This competition was actually meant to be pretty much a free-for-all as far as books are concerned. To a certain extent, books were left out more because they were forgotten than anything else. For example, Mercurius and I do own Heroes of Battle and Tome of Battle, but I didn't even think of suggesting them. But books are mainly limited by the fact that a judge must own it for us to allow it, otherwise it's pretty impossible to judge. Also, if you get too many books going, it starts to get hard to find everything (especially when people don't cite things, hint hint). But I'm sure Jason and the others for HC#10 will be glad to take your suggestions into consideration, at the least.
And on a final note....am I still the only female to have entered this competition? I know at least one other has read it, but come on, ladies! You're missing out on all the fun! :D
Just my two cents.
I had to really increase my level of criticism this time around, b/c my scores were in too narrow a range to be helpful.
Also, fair warning to all eligible judges considering helping me out, I will be lobbying for a higher level competition this time around. I just am not very interested in characters below level 6. I enjoy the challenge of digging for obscure details in a high level entry. I know I'm biased, but I believe that low level characters means contestants didn't work that hard (not true, I know, but it's a bias), which means I don't really work that hard searching for errors.
Maybe in the 8-12 range...
(Preparing to be outvoted immediatly on that issue.)
Edit: Now that I have a sufficient number of responses, I will be sending out invitations after I get home from Bible Study tonight (approx. 8-9pm). The list of eligible judges is expanding, so hopefully the next HC will feature some brand new judges. Those interested, be thinking about possible contest themes.
Well, Haruspex, it's something you learn to do. I didn't realize it until the last HC competition that I coordiated, but I was being WAY too nice with my scores. I realized that I never gave anyone below a 20/35, and that scores that low were incredibly rare from me.
I know the feeling....though I already had the suspicion that I was the "nice" judge that artificially inflates everyone's score....this just proved it...
I know I'm biased, but I believe that low level characters means contestants didn't work that hard (not true, I know, but it's a bias), which means I don't really work that hard searching for errors.
Maybe in the 8-12 range...
(Preparing to be outvoted immediately on that issue.)
Oh, I do agree with that. Judging high level competitions is way more fun, at least as far as Rules Use goes. I didn't get any chances to laugh maniacally as I caught someone in a hard-to-find mistake this time because the characters were so low in level that there wasn't as much stuff to mess up. My only problem with judging higher level is the lack of time...much as I love to sift through books to find rules errors, I simply don't have the time around what else I'm doing....Oh well....
I'm up for most competitions, but the last one was just blech, nothing that didn't seem hackneyed popped out to me, and with the book of hypocritical cheese with it, coupled with the low level, I just stepped out.
As a note, I don't think alignment paragons are suitable concepts. Except MAYBE lawful.
Well, it really doesn't matter to me which books are used, as I don't have any beyond the core 3. Now, just a notice to anyone who cares, I updated my E-mail address, so if anyone wants to contact me that way they can.
I'm up for most competitions, but the last one was just blech, nothing that didn't seem hackneyed popped out to me, and with the book of hypocritical cheese with it, coupled with the low level, I just stepped out.
As a note, I don't think alignment paragons are suitable concepts. Except MAYBE lawful.
Aww, I loved the chance to create a really "good" hero. It was very interesting to see that there were less entries this time. Clearly a lot more people like to play characters who are fast and loose with their morality, whereas I like classical heroes a great deal (antiheroes as well, though). It was a lot of fun for me creating Sophia, she who uses words instead of sword.
But I'll agree that alignment maybe focuses the playing field more than is necessary. I'm interested in seeing what the next subject is, because I love making characters for these. Judging is a different story, though. I just don't think I'm good enough at it, and it's not a ton of fun for me. *shrug*
Oh yeah, HC#10 is up as well.
First, I added a link to HC10 in the master list.
Second, I updated the list of eligible judges, since we expanded by three.
Third, I added an explanation of what is required to qualify as a judge.
LORDS OF MADNESS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jason suggested such a theme before, and now that I have the book and have read it... I concur with his suggestion of a horror/abberations theme.
Also, bump.
If we get a horror theme I want to create something horrible.
While I am strongly in favor of a Abberations/Horror theme for HC#11, there is one other issue that must be resolved first:
Who will judge the next Hero Craftsman?
My schedule is about to go obscenely haywire, so I will not be able to judge (though I had hoped to judge at least one more before I stepped down for a while).
Who's up for judging the next competition?
I don't think that should have to be horror related though, aberrations are such a varied bunch that straying away from the Horror theme may produce some interesting entries.
A separate Horror theme for a competition would great too as it is such a wide category it seems a shame to limit it to the aberrations sub-genre which immediately screams "Cthulu! Cthulu!" to me.
I can't judge yet but I shall be happy to volunteer once I get a few more medals ;) I have plenty of time on my hands.
Longtime lurker
Others may be in the same situation.
Are there any takers on judges for HC#11?
I'm going to say I'm unavailable to judge. However... if the options come down to A) I judge; or B) HC 11 never happens; I'll pick A. Or, in other words, I'll judge if it makes a difference between having the contest and not having the contest. If there's enough available judges without me, though, I'd prefer to bow out.
***
In other stuff... I added wrecan to the list of eligible judges in the first post. Did any of the other medal winners from HC10 qualify for judging status?
At some point over the next couple of days, I'll take Chilli's post a few back from this one that lists medal winners for every competition and move that info into the first post. I'll also use it to calculate "judging points" and add that list to the first post, so that hopefully for HC11 and forward it's easier to tell who qualifies.
But as bad as I was about being late this last time I'd prefer not to. I just don't want to hurt the contest because I screw up.
Like Zherog, I'll do it if the alternative is not to have the contest at all.
Heh heh ...
>.>
<.<
*sad face*
Everyone's thoughts? Sound good? Sound bad? Mostly, I'm just looking for a way to ease the load on the judges.
As I have said before, I'm definitely out for judging the next round, but my schedule may be opening up at the end of the month. If it does, I should be available to judge regularly again in September.
As for six weeks to start and end a contest, God no. First of all, two weeks is plenty of time to create a character. Second of all, setting a time to judge isn't going to work, in my opinion. Judges judge as fast as they can. If it takes one week or three weeks, it won't change simply because we impose a deadline on it.
That's just my opinion. Leave it two weeks for the contest and ASAP for the judges. Everybody's been pretty tolerant and patient, aside for some good-natured ribbing.
aberrations would be a great theme, but the contest'd have to be set with a fairly high ecl
Well, I will judge if needed - and I'll even take a stab at being the coordinating judge if I have to.
Methinks you're needed, Kit.
- Initial Post: Really, all you do here is copy the text from the previous contest and alter it for the changes in the one you're running. Things to make sure you update:
- Flavor text
- End date
- Legal source material
- Any changes to the rules (I don't believe we've discussed any actual changes recently
- Flavor text
- FAQ: As questions come up and get answered, copy/paste 'em up to your FAQ post
- List of Entries: As you gain entries, grab the link to the post and update your list. I typically do this and the FAQ once a day.
- Judgment Calls: If a situation arises where something seems ambiguous and an actual ruling is required, your word is the final say in the matter.
- Computing Scores: As you receive scores from the judges, you'll want to record them and, eventually, figure out the final scores. As far as the math goes, it's just computing averages. Excel (or a similar program) does a fine job of this.
- Posting the results: It's really no different than any other post.
So while it looks like a lot to do, it's really not too bad.
I am hoping to return to the judge's chair (and possibly the coordinator's chair) the next time around, but I have to complete the home loan process and try and convince my graduate school to stop dragging it's feet so I can get my classes lined up...
Still, it will probably be fun to put on the competitor's gloves again. I prefer the judges chair, but there are many skilled competitors, so this should be interesting as well.
Expect the announcement for HC11 shortly.
Best of luck to the new judges!
edit woops! it already started, boy do i have egg on my face....
One thing we probably ought to do is come up with a rule for time limit on judging. I had someone that agreed to judge, but I didn't hear from at all for 3 weeks after the competition closed for entries. I ended up posting the score without that judges input.
Now my guess is that the judge has a good excuse. But things can happen, and if someone agrees to judge and then is not able to do it we ought to have a guideline for what to do.
I hope nobody minds the way I handled it this time. If so please comment on it here so we can work it out.
As far as HC12 goes, I will not be able to judge at all. I have a baby due on Oct 26th (well actually my wife is the one with the baby - but I consider myself part of the package).
So while I may or may not have time to enter, I definitely can not commit the time required for judging.Also, any theme suggestions?
Btw, Kit, no objections to how you handled the contest.
And as for judging goes, perhaps there could be 3 judges per contest, with one "alternate" in case something happens?
As for the time limit...I think that's probably a good idea. I know I work better with a deadline, and then everyone doesn't sit around going "So, are you done yet?" (we were all thinking it, even if we were too polite to post it except as a joke
). I don't know about an alternate though....maybe we should try to have four judges per competition so we'll still have a good assortment if one drops out?And, I already have theme ideas kicking around in my head...
Now, don't think you have to come in at the low levels. I see there's already quite a few judges volunteering, so if the consensus is to go with something a little higher, you won't hurt my feelings.
I hope nobody minds the way I handled it this time. If so please comment on it here so we can work it out.
I have no problems at all with how you handled it. I was in a similar spot once for one of the contests I coordinated, and I was set to make the same decision you did - compute scores with the judges I had. Fortunately, the final one came in and I didn't have to make an executive decision.
I think two weeks is more than enough time for a judge to turn things around. In a blatant case of hypocrisy, I'd actually prefer to see it done in a week to ten days, max.
I will not be able to judge at all. I have a baby due on Oct 26th (well actually my wife is the one with the baby - but I consider myself part of the package).
First of all: Congrats! I wish you a happy and healthy child.
Second of all: enjoy your sleep now while you can get it. And no, I'm not exaggerating even a little bit.
Third of all: You're part of the package, alright. During the birth you get to stand there and gape at what takes place, all the while calming your wife and telling her she's doing great. ;) Childbirth is both the most disgusting thing I've ever seen, as well as the most wonderful, awe-inspiring thing I've ever seen.
As for level, I personally like 6th, so that PrCs are up for grabs, but I can work with just about anything, though higher opens up a bit more of the playing field. I prefer no higher than 10th, though.
Oh, and I would rather not judge... because I've been looking forward to this sort of theme.
First of all: Congrats! I wish you a happy and healthy child.
Second of all: enjoy your sleep now while you can get it. And no, I'm not exaggerating even a little bit.
Third of all: You're part of the package, alright. During the birth you get to stand there and gape at what takes place, all the while calming your wife and telling her she's doing great. ;) Childbirth is both the most disgusting thing I've ever seen, as well as the most wonderful, awe-inspiring thing I've ever seen.
Thanks for the congratulations. As for the advice, it is good. Unfortunately, this baby's 3 older siblings are interfering with the attempts to stock up on sleep. :D
And yes, childbirth is awesome, wonderful, and unnerving.
I think that a contest based on a character who's main strength is his leadership would be interesting. Utilizing others is more difficult than just relying on your own strength.
There already was a competition like that, actually. The first one I wound up judging. Everyone had to have some sort of sidekick, either a cohort, animal companion, whatever. It might work again with a different tack, but still...
I think that a contest based on a character who's main strength is his leadership would be interesting. Utilizing others is more difficult than just relying on your own strength.
Sounds better than the PC NPC, but not really compelling.
I don't get where the holidayesque part comes in.
Yule time. Seeing how it is close to Yule here in the states. Maybe like heroes of the holiday or some such.
Yule time. Seeing how it is close to Yule here in the states. Maybe like heroes of the holiday or some such.
Fear my level 6 Half Orc Santa Claus.
The specifics of the contest can't be decided until the judges are decided, but I will say this: I'm breaking w/ my usual habits. I want a low level HC this time around. Level 6-7, at the most.
Hometown Heroes sounds interesting...or perhaps Snowbound Heroes, for a quasi-Yule theme. Frost barbarians, winter wizards, windsinger bards, etc.
I've got nothing as far as ideas goes, though. We've already gotten the one I was waiting for (though I didn't enter what I originally thought I might enter into it...).
Most prestige classes are aimed at 8th level though. It's pretty hard to squeeze them in as low as 6.
It's been my experience that almost every PrC is written to be attainable as your 6th level. Most require 8 ranks in a skill, or +5 BAB, or some-such that allows one to meet the requirements through careful planning earlier. There are some that require higher level characters, but I'd say they're more the minority than the majority.
It's been my experience that almost every PrC is written to be attainable as your 6th level. Most require 8 ranks in a skill, or +5 BAB, or some-such that allows one to meet the requirements through careful planning earlier. There are some that require higher level characters, but I'd say they're more the minority than the majority.
Well it is pretty even between 6 and 8, I guess it depends which supplements you consult the most as to which comes out in the majority.
I'm not thinking of any ideas at the moment though...maybe my brain will work better later....
I vote for 5th or 6th level.
Hometown Heroes sounds interesting...or perhaps Snowbound Heroes, for a quasi-Yule theme. Frost barbarians, winter wizards, windsinger bards, etc.
Only problem here is Hero Craftsman #6: The Frost has Fallen (Frostburn-inspired) & Hero Craftsman #8: The Cobblestone Jungle (Urban Heroes).
We'd be treading old ground.
I do have some ideas kicking around, but since I've already volunteered to judge, I'm holding them back until someone volunteers to take the coordinator position.
This idea brought to you by...
The antics of Antonio!
The antics of Antonio!
Only problem here is Hero Craftsman #6: The Frost has Fallen (Frostburn-inspired) & Hero Craftsman #8: The Cobblestone Jungle (Urban Heroes).
We'd be treading old ground.
Hero Craftsman #14: Lords of the Jungle
HC #14: Guardians of the Wild
HC #14: Masters of Ancient Lore
HC #14: Shades of Gray
Just throwin' out ideas...
Edit: I like the cat theme! Beware the felinomancer!
At some point soon, I'll take Chili's lists and move them into the first post so they're easier to find.
Hey Z, when you get time could you pull Chilli's medal list to the front page (it's on page 5) and update it? No hurry, but I figure it'd be a good resource.
Hero Craftsman #14: Lords of the Jungle
HC #14: Guardians of the Wild
HC #14: Masters of Ancient Lore
HC #14: Shades of Gray
Just throwin' out ideas...
Edit: I like the cat theme! Beware the felinomancer!
Actually it would be the Aluriomancer (from Aluriophobia(I may of misspelled it), fear of cats)
Of course, it's less obvious to those who have no idea what "Alurio" means.
He's pointing out the correct prefix for such a class, based upon existing nomenclature. "Alurio" clearly refers to cats, while the "phobia" part is the fear part. So an "Aluriomancer" would be a cat mage, having nothing to do with fear because of the lack of the "phobia" part. It's simply a point that the proper nomenclature in such instances is likely to be derived from the same sources, so "Aluriophobia" provides a good precedent.
Of course, it's less obvious to those who have no idea what "Alurio" means.
Hit the Nail of the Head!
He's pointing out the correct prefix for such a class, based upon existing nomenclature. "Alurio" clearly refers to cats, while the "phobia" part is the fear part. So an "Aluriomancer" would be a cat mage, having nothing to do with fear because of the lack of the "phobia" part. It's simply a point that the proper nomenclature in such instances is likely to be derived from the same sources, so "Aluriophobia" provides a good precedent.
Of course, it's less obvious to those who have no idea what "Alurio" means.
Ah yes, these things come from not reading thoroughly. Regardless, phobia names are usually silly prefixes that no one understands and don't seem to relate to anything.
I would think Felomancer, or at worst Nekomancer, would be better.
I'm available for low-level judging. No higher than 5, maybe 6.
I can also coordinate, since it's usually not much in the way of extra work.
Similar concepts would be "must have +x Base Attack Bonus" or "Must have x ranks in some skill." Something that is attainable in many different ways, though they do sort of feel a little weird.
A "Theives' Guild" competition, a la "Welcome to the Monastery," could be interesting. Maybe, rather than requiring at least one level of rogue, it could require at least one level in a class with 6 or more skill points per level (Rogue, Ranger, Bard, Spellthief, Ninja, Scout, Beguiler, etc).
Also, I humbly request we allow Tome of Battle again, since I didn't get to play with it at all in this last competition.
Savage Species could be an interesting book to allow as well, though it's not entirely 3.5 compatible...
Savage Species could be an interesting book to allow as well, though it's not entirely 3.5 compatible...
I like the idea of a "nonstandard races" HC!
Wouldn't have to use SS; we could just use any species with a LA in any of the available books.it'd be interesting to see what backgrounds people come up with beyond the traditional "abandoned at birth, raised by LG monks" one.
Edit: And Zherog just gave me another idea:
It's also pretty interesting to talk about the contest -- past, present, and/or future. ;)
Heroes Out of Time. Your hero comes from the past or the future. Explain how he got catapulted through time, etc. Cave man heroes? Post-(magical)apocalypse hereos? Heroes of the End Times? Heroes from space? Sure!
Maybe, rather than requiring at least one level of rogue, it could require at least one level in a class with 6 or more skill points per level (Rogue, Ranger, Bard, Spellthief, Ninja, Scout, Beguiler, etc).
While I like the "Thieves' Guild" idea it feels a lot like the urban jungle competition. Also, the "6 or more skill points" concept really should have been used in the Scions of Skill Comp.
I'm a big fan of themes based on campaign style. I'd go with...
Underdark Denizen
Noble Hero
Fallen Hero
Or... if you're feeling ambitious (for a low-level contest)
"Rags to Riches". Create a character who spent his first two levels (or more) on a NPC class (Adept, Aristocrat, Commoner, Expert, Warrior, and Magewright if you allow Eberron). So you could have the farmboy turned adventurer, the noble son thrust into recovering his family fortune, the cloistered priest turned vengeful hand of a god. Fun stuff.
Of course, I love NPC classes.
Heroes Out of Time. Your hero comes from the past or the future. Explain how he got catapulted through time, etc. Cave man heroes? Post-(magical)apocalypse hereos? Heroes of the End Times? Heroes from space?
Oh, man! I just did a time-traveling entry for the horror comp!!
Maybe I'd enter the Terminator as a Warforged character and Saralinda Hamilton Connor as his nemesis..."Look out, everyone! It's a 6th level character with all good saves, Improved Evasion, Improved Uncanny Dodge, DR 5/-, lots of HP, and a +0 BAB!"
I prefer a more wide open theme.
Also, I hate to be a spoil-sport, but the next competition can't even happen if we don't have enough judges. Z and I have both stepped forward, but at the very least we need one more and someone will need to take the coordinator position.
We can keep up the Theme chatter (it just gives me more ideas to play with), but we really need some judges to step forward.
Heroes Out of Time. Your hero comes from the past or the future. Explain how he got catapulted through time, etc. Cave man heroes? Post-(magical)apocalypse hereos? Heroes of the End Times? Heroes from space?
Oh, man! I just did a time-traveling entry for the horror comp!! Maybe I'd enter the Terminator as a Warforged character and Saralinda Hamilton Connor as his nemesis...
Mercurius?? Credit where credit's due, pal!
Where can I find all the other Hero Craftsman competitions, so I can find out what has been done in the past? (search sucks; keeps giving me every thread with hero or craft in the title, despite typing "hero craftsman")
They should all be listed in the first post or two of this thread.
As for judging, while I qualify, I don't enjoy it much and we're getting to the busy period at work right now... I'm not sure I'll be much good to anyone as a judge, unfortunately. Working retail at a college bookstore is pretty problematic that way.
Mercurius?? Credit where credit's due, pal!
I am soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo sorry, Talisman. That's what I get for posting in a hurry when the quote feature isn't working. :embarrass
Where can I find all the other Hero Craftsman competitions, so I can find out what has been done in the past? (search sucks; keeps giving me every thread with hero or craft in the title, despite typing "hero craftsman")
First post on the thread has all the links.
I am soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo sorry, Talisman.
Hmph. Well...all right, then. I'll accept your apology...I guess :P Don't cry...have a 
Also, I hate to be a spoil-sport, but the next competition can't even happen if we don't have enough judges. Z and I have both stepped forward, but at the very least we need one more and someone will need to take the coordinator position.
Psst. I said I could coordinate as well. ;)
Psst. I said I could coordinate as well.
I knew that...
Hey Z, when you get time could you pull Chilli's medal list to the front page (it's on page 5) and update it? No hurry, but I figure it'd be a good resource.
Done. I need to go update the list for 10, 11, and 12.
I'll send a PM to the eligible judges who haven't responded yet, to gauge their interest. Then we can pow-wow a topic and get the party started.
Certainly, anybody with "theme" ideas, please continue to post them. Even if they aren't used for 13, they could inspire an idea for a future contest.
edit: PM sent.
Also, if you can, can you please change the name for #12's bronze medal to this name instead of Avalon? since I've recently got my old name back?
Zherog, you don't seem to have updated the medals list in quite a while. Can you perhaps do it sometime soon?
Yep, I said this just a few posts back:
Done. I need to go update the list for 10, 11, and 12.
I definitely need to get those lists updated.
Also, if you can, can you please change the name for #12's bronze medal to this name instead of Avalon? since I've recently got my old name back?
I can probably arrange that. ;)
I'll just go ahead and bite the bullet. I won't be able to judge in March-April, but I do have time to judge one more contest before that, so I'll throw my hat in the ring. I'm also willing to coordinate the next HC contest as well, but I'll leave that position open to anyone else who cares to claim it first.
Btw, Z, you may want to update the medal list when you have the time.
Ooh, suggestion: HC #14...which will end in February...February 14th is Valentine's Day! HC #14: Heroes of Love!
Or Heroes in Love! Updating the medal winners remains on my "to do" list (along with updating the forum FAQ and Important Links which is stickied at the top of the forum).
I'm semi-retiring from judging. My day job is up to a gabajillion hours, my kids are requiring more time (baseball, soccer, dance classes, homework, swim lessons - bah!), and my writing gig seems to be picking up momentum, which takes what free time I have left.
I will, however, continue to maintain this thread as best as possible for the foreseeable future.
So... any other eligible judges up for judging this time around???
Considering my school schedule, recently purchased house, and other upcoming events in my life, it is going to be October, at the earliest, before I'll even be looking at 4e.
In other words, how much longer will I be a viable judge?
(Then again, maybe that's what Hasbro wants. This is just my best guess)
Anyway, we've got at least until May...time for, what, 2-3 more HC's?
Also, just a look to the future, I know for a fact I will not be able to judge in March/early April. School will be hitting me too hard at that time. Still, after that I will return, and stick around until 4e ends my glorious run as HC judge.
Passion
Music
Poetry
Love
Competition
Pursuit
Piercing Weapons
Archery
Idiocy
Some of those could work as potential, broader conceptions of the contest... Not really sure...
However, I can attempt to flex my Forum Lead muscles and try to get an answer. I don't think one will be forthcoming, but I can certainly ask.
Themes vaguely related to love/February:
Idiocy
That's it! HC #14: Idiot Heroes! Rules: Your hero cannot have an Int or Wis higher than 6.
(Times I'm glad I don't have a significant other to beat me for the snide relationship comments I keep making.)
You get hit by a Bestow Curse, and next thing you know, you're in a relatio...
...I don't have a significant other...
Gee, with statements like that, I can't imagine why. :P
The easy way around it is to change the character creation rules. All abilities start at 8, but the entrant is entitled to start any mental abilities at 6 if he so chooses. No extra points are granted for that, but it helps to fit the theme.
If you want a feebleminded cleric or a cursed monk or an ability-drained paladin instead, that's entirely up to the player.
Frankly, I think an Idiot Craftsman contest should set the level at 20, so you can have an Epic Idiot!
When the next one starts up, have the Coordinating Judge PM me and I'll point some of the Real Adventures Community to it or Advertise the contest in this thread (Please provide a link if you do.) It is a little PbP area on these forums and while members are waiting for games to pop up they may want to participate in a contest like this (They're always up for making characters).
I think I have a pretty good idea for a theme for the next contest, since it'll probably be the last (or next to last) contest before 4e, and the moving of this competition to those boards (presumably).
Like Z, I'd be willing to coordinate if no one else has time (and I'll also judge if we're short on judges), but if I don't judge, I will not post a character if my theme is used. I'll PM judges with my idea.
You know this latest one is going to be full of ToB combo classes and Shock Troopers. And probably some Druid & Barbarian sprinkled around for good measure.
Ironically, almost all of this is incorrect. Though I did have a Divine Metamagic Cleric, he didn't use it with Persist, so it wasn't as broken as it coulda been.
How did you like having a coordinator who was not a judge? My hunch is there wasn't really any difference, but I'd like to verify that.
I'm not available for judging HC16. Fortunately, my freelance work continues to stay at a word count level that keeps me busy. I could coordinate again, though, if necessary (though it doesn't appear to be).
So that's at least 2 so far counting me and Jason. I'll also take a crack at coordinating if no one else wants to (it'll be my first time, eek).
EDIT:
I'd like to ask a question of the HC15 judges and contestants:
How did you like having a coordinator who was not a judge? My hunch is there wasn't really any difference, but I'd like to verify that.
It was nice actually. Not having to worry about coordinating everything along with judging was good, especially since it was my first time as a judge.
I'm not available for judging HC16.
POORRR QUUUEEEE??????!!!!!!!! [/family guy reference]
Endarrion and I are both on board, but we need one more to get started on HC#16. Also, the prestigious position of coordinator is still technically open to anyone who's interested. (Though Endarrion has probably volunteered himself at this point.)
And yes, I am that thoroughly impatient to get started on not judging HC entries until 2 weeks after the deadline is past...
If you're an eligible judge for the Hero Craftsman Contest series then we want YOU! Help your community, your country, your world, and yes, even yourself by volunteering for the Hero Craftsman Contest Judging position.
No purchase necessary. See contest judges for details. HC not responsible for loss of limbs or life.
Hey other eligible judges...
Endarrion and I are both on board, but we need one more to get started on HC#16. Also, the prestigious position of coordinator is still technically open to anyone who's interested. (Though Endarrion has probably volunteered himself at this point.)
Z also volunteered to serve as coordinator again.
I'll judge if the characters aren't high-level...say, no more than 8th. I'm not particularly up for a 19th-level trial-by-fire for my first time judging.
But anyway, yeah. I'm in.
(sits back wondering what he's let himself in for)
Sorry, I can't judge HC next time, I'm tied up with judging an MDMC at the moment.
Oh, no one gives a
about that, Heros_! This competition is way more important.That said, with all likelihood, this will be the final HC for the 3.5 rules, and I want one more shot at it, because I like 3.5 and because I don't have a lot of fun judging, to be honest...
That said, with all likelihood, this will be the final HC for the 3.5 rules...
I'm not so sure that's a reasonable assumption, to be honest. The forum will continue to exist after the conversion; I would think that we could either:
A) Run both 3.5 and 4e contests
B) Alternate
Basically, as long as there's interest then I can't see why this would be the last 3.5 one.
In other news, ignore my comments re: high-level PCs. As long as it's not actually epic, I'm game.
What's a Player to Do will continue to exist without being moved to the out of print forum.
Oh, no one gives a
This is fighting talk!
Let me see, what weapons have I got in my Backpack pockets? A demon horse, a righteous army, a red judging pen, and a d20 that always rolls 1s at the wrong moment for the players...Anyway, you've got 3 judges that have stepped up and an offer of a non-judging coordinator, so what are you worried about?
Yay! I'm glad that Talisman has agreed to judge, because I was afraid I was going to have to offer to be the third judge just to get the competition rolling, and I kinda want a break after judging the last two...Thanks muchly to our three judges for saving me!
Now I just need a competition where I can enter a certain character I have in mind....
What, you think I'm telling you what I want? You'll pick something else just to spite me!
:D
Just for you, jenni. :D3.5 will be moved to out of print, yes. It will have either five or six sub-forums.
What's a Player to Do will continue to exist without being moved to the out of print forum.
But, if we're running a 3.5 rules contest, wouldn't it be "off topic" to be posting in the WaPtD forum when it's a 4.0 forum? I've seen threads move for less...
Maybe I'm just being overly cynical and pessimistic, though. I'm known to do that.
Though, if WotC is graceful enough to let a 3.5 competition continue (not holding my breath on that one), I may show up from time to time and compete.
I really enjoy judging, but time is just too much of an issue.
And although I'm coordinating the MDMCs coming up (will be posted Friday), I will also judge HC 16 if it's not too late.
If you're interested, drop a note here. There's currently no specific timeframe for getting started. It's only in the discussion phase.
Sorry.
BTW, Z, any chance of updating the first post? I hate to nag, but I'd sure like to see my name added to the appropriate lists while this forum is still extant.
I just really like nitpicking people's work. Any excuse to be hypercritical of others is always a good thing.
BTW, Z, any chance of updating the first post? I hate to nag, but I'd sure like to see my name added to the appropriate lists while this forum is still extant.
D'oh!
I'll get that later tonight...edit: done! Sorry about the delay...
*
This seems like a really good opportunity to start figuring out plans for 4e. I would prefer to keep 3.5 contests running; I see two ways that can happen:
1) Split the contests off, so that there's a 3.5 version and a 4e version.
2) Alternate, running a contest of each edition every other time around (or 2 4e contests for every 3.5 contest, or whatever ratio)
Thoughts on either of those? Other ideas?
How many of the eligible judges plan to learn the 4e ruleset?
And, of course, any other thoughts on the Hero Craftsman contest?
I think the Hero Craftsman should stay 3.5 and create a new version for 4th. Perhaps... Paragon Craftsman?
Seriously, "Adventurer Artisan" or "Character Craftsman" would be fine. Meh. I'm out of ideas.
side rant
Yeah, so MM4 was a failure, and WotC admitted in interviews that the reason it failed was b/c no one was interested in modified monsters w/ class levels, something just about any DM can do already.
SWSE got all the way to the 3rd book (Allies & Enemies) before they started doing just that. Three books! Three books, and they repeat a format that doesn't work.
I don't want to dismiss 4e w/o reading it... but things just keeping looking worse & worse...
SWSE got all the way to the 3rd book (Allies & Enemies) before they started doing just that. Three books! Three books, and they repeat a format that doesn't work.
I don't want to dismiss 4e w/o reading it... but things just keeping looking worse & worse...
Of course, I forsee myself getting a little confused at times, having started to seriously consider Pathfinder as an option for continuing my RPG fix, as opposed to 4.0. Having seen the leaked PHB and such, I'm not exuberant. I'll wait until this Saturday when I play a demo, but I'm not expecting much.
i'd say have HC17, maybe even HC18 stay 3.5e until we're familiarized with 4e, then decide how to do future competitions
I don't agree with this. When 4E hits the shelves, people will be wanting to get the characters out of their head ASAP. At least I know I want to. There will be increased activity, increase of players wanting to flesh out their characters and this what HC is perfect for. If we go straight 4E and low level the next HC, we will provide the opportunity for all those people who started a new campaign to have their characters scored and rated. (...I hope the last sentence made sense.)
So the next theme would be something like point of light/dark in a sea of gray. That's my idea anyways. Appropriate starting level could be 1-5 but not higher.
4e: :thumbsdow
I know and like 3.5. From what I've seen and heard of 4e, it seems even less interesting than I first thought. I'll probably learn it eventually, since I'm an RPG junkie, but Lord only knows when...certainly not for months at the minimum, and I doubt I'd ever be up to judging a 4e competition.
I vote we keep HC 17 to 3.5, simply because it'll take a while for those judges who are interested in 4e to learn 4e sufficient to judge it. After that, we can either alternate or split into two threads, assuming there remains enough interest in 3.5 (which from the looks of things, there will be for a while).
I'm going to go with the stick to 3.5 camp. Not that I would mind if we decide we want to do both--I just won't be able to help with the 4e competition.
I'm liking wrecan's idea of splitting off the comps into different versions more and more. Worst case scenario for 4e in that case is we start the same way the current contest started -- by recruiting volunteers to serve as judges.
Keep the thoughts coming, though! This contest (and any 4e version) belongs to the community, not to me.
Oh, wait...that wasn't what you meant...
3.5:
4e: :thumbsdow
I know and like 3.5. From what I've seen and heard of 4e, it seems even less interesting than I first thought. I'll probably learn it eventually, since I'm an RPG junkie, but Lord only knows when...certainly not for months at the minimum, and I doubt I'd ever be up to judging a 4e competition.
I vote we keep HC 17 to 3.5, simply because it'll take a while for those judges who are interested in 4e to learn 4e sufficient to judge it. After that, we can either alternate or split into two threads, assuming there remains enough interest in 3.5 (which from the looks of things, there will be for a while).
4e isn't bad, but from I have seen so far, and since they just introduced it, you arn't going to be doing a hero craftsman anytime soon for it, or probably ever.
4e isn't bad, but from I have seen so far, and since they just introduced it, you arn't going to be doing a hero craftsman anytime soon for it, or probably ever.
If you're referring to me personally, that's absolutely true. Can't speak for any of the others.
My lack of interest is, of course, strictly a personal opinion. If you like it, then game on and have fun.
Since the scores are in for HC 16, what're some ideas for HC 17? Or am I jumping the crossbow on this?
Personally, I am a fan of the idea of having a 3.5 contest (Hero Craftsman) and a separate 4e contest (maybe... "Duel of Champions").
Do you have an idea for possible 4e Hero Craftsman titles? If so, submit them. Let's get the ball rolling on that issue.
Personally, I have spent 3 days browsing the 4e books, and I have confirmed a lot of my disappointments w/ the system. Overall, the system is average... not that bad, but it's not enough to make me switch from 3.5. (Pathfinder is looking better and better by the day, IMO.)
I'm not going to tear into 4e as if it were the worst system ever, but overall, it just doesn't impress me enough to switch. I still need to finish absorbing the books (probably another week), but thus far, I haven't found anything that really impresses me.
However, a d20 modern competition would be pretty awesome, I actually prefer it to 3.5e despite it retaining some 3.0 elements. As a transition, why not try a 'D&D using d20 modern' contest, where you try to make a fantasy character under the d20 modern ruleset?
) Anyway... I'm a very slow reader, and I'm still on the PHB. But I'm liking a lot of what I see, despite finding things I think are crazy-stupid, like the new alignment "system." Overall, I'm liking the system. *shrug**
I'm still interested in hearing from any judges who would be interested in helping the d20 Modern area kick off their own version of this contest.
*
And finally, I'm also interested in hearing from folks who would be interested in kicking off a 4e version of this contest. My preference would be to start with existing judges to keep some consistency, but if I can't get three judges for a 4e contest, I'll open it up to anybody who would be interested.
I've continued my browsing of the 4e books, and I've reached my conclusion: I'm not investing in 4e. Overall, I don't think the system is decrepit, but there just really isn't enough to entice me away from 3.5. At this point, I'm basically just browsing them for interesting house rules. (Oh, and typos... I love finding typos... found two major typos by page 35...) I won't be helping w/ the 4e contests (unless the system makes some incredible jumps in the next couple of years, but even then...).
On the 4e front, I tried to keep an open mind, but I'll admit I went into it with an overall negative attitude. So far, I'm liking what I've read. However... I can most definitely understand all the folks who say it isn't D&D.
The system does seem to have a lot more consistent internal balance (a good thing), but I don't necessarily like the way they accomplished it. My main example: Every class has at will, encounter, daily, and utility powers.
Sure, these are reasonably balanced (as far as I've managed to dig before Books-a-million kicks me out because "the store is closing"). However, that means that Fighters play like Wizards. Determine powers. Use powers. They are equally complex.
In 3.5, Fighter was one of the best "New Player" classes for one simple reason: simplicity of play.
"You roll this die. You add this number. If you roll well enough to hit, then roll these dice for damage."
Very simple. Clean cut. Easy to play. New players, and even some experienced players, really like rolling a handful of dice, and leaving it there.
Wizards were for those who liked combining a thousand elements into one coherent strategy. It was possible to come up w/ god-like characters (i.e.: My level 13-14 Wizard that one-shotted a CR 24 Greater Wyrm Red Dragon, though that was mostly luck), but it was equally possible to create "glass jaw" characters if you chose poorly.
The varying complexity appealed to different players.
I have a good friend of mine who has played D&D for 3 years, and she still just wants to "hit it with an axe." She will blatantly tell you, "magic makes my brain hurt."
So... while the new "powers" system helps balance, I'm afraid it may frustrate the feeling of variety that classes once provided.
And besides, balance didn't require a set of consistent mechanics. Want to make fighters into gods of war? Try this. In 3.5, use the "Armor as DR" and "Class Bonus to Defense" variants from Unearthed Arcana. If you do this alone, fighters become monsters.
I've recently added one house rule: I made use of the "Weapon Group" rules from the same source, but said that Fighters now apply Weapon Focus (and all residual feats) to Groups instead of individual weapons.
Fighters are now easily on par with casters, w/o significantly increasing the complexity of the class. Thus, at the end of the day, 4e leaves me "unimpressed." It's not a decrepit system, but it's not shining (IMO) either.
Oh... and the new alignment system makes my head hurt. A LOT. (...but that's an entirely different rant.)
I will give 4e props for one forthcoming house rule in my games, however: Starting at a soon to be determined level, "Combat classes" (BAB/HD progression) will now double the base damage (or, alternate: add one damage die) they deal w/ any weapon they are proficient in using (i.e.: 1d8 + modifiers will become 2d8 + modifiers) on regular attacks. I do like that rule.
Oh... and the new alignment system makes my head hurt. A LOT. (...but that's an entirely different rant.)
Yeah, I have a severe dislike of that system, too.
That aside, I think having HC support 4e only makes sense. Assuming I can find judges...
"You roll this die. You add this number. If you roll well enough to hit, then roll these dice for damage."
Very simple. Clean cut. Easy to play. New players, and even some experienced players, really like rolling a handful of dice, and leaving it there.
hence why i rarely play a straight-up caster.
and yes, the new alignment 'system' blocks us out of many of the more difficult alignments to faithfully portray in a character, but those alignments are also the most fun
I see a lot of comments about "unaligned" being true neutral from the past rules. And that's partially true. But you can be a good person who helps others and all that sort of stuff heroes do and still be unaligned.
Anyway, we're derailing this thread with the talk. If somebody wants to discuss 4e 's alignment system I'd suggest taking it to a new thread on this forum.
It's also one of the busiest times in my year, and I just don't have time to spare to judge at the moment.
Yay!
Now, I have a cat named Ro-Ro, but still...
Feels good to have a title, even as simple as it is!
Rather than just a bump, though, I've got a question. We only received seven entries this time. Why? Is it because it's 3.5 and most people are fiddling with 4e? Did the theme suck? Just a bad time of year? Some other reason? What can we do to increase entries in future contests?
I think part of it is that there are a lot of people who might have competed who weren't aware of it. After all, despite being appropriate here, it's a 3.5 related topic and I wouldn't even be looking in the main section of the boards if not for the contest. People who were interested in continuing the 3.5 ruleset and therefore more likely to compete are kind of not in this thread as much, I suspect.
Anybody have general comments about things?
I thought participation was low this time (though we did get some awesome new folks!). Was that because of 4e, and folks no longer having as much interest in 3.5? Did our theme suck? Was it just because it's vacation season? Some other reason?
I would prefer to sit out HC18, but I can coordinate if nobody else is available, and I could judge if absolutely, positively necessary - though I'd prefer not to.
As such, I will say this...
If the next contest is 3.5e, and no higher than level 10, I'm willing to judge. Beyond that, I'll leave it up to the other eligible judges.
The lower turnout... I really don't know...
While the contest uses 3.5 rules, a lot of the lessons that folks can take from it - specifically, the character building aspects - apply to any game, not just 3.5 or 4e.
Oh, and Mercurius and I really need to post the entry we made up for the last competition....he built it and I wrote the background....:evillaugh
If that's not viewed as a problem with coordinating, then it would seem we have our three judges (me, Jason, and Endarrion). However, given my busy schedule coming up, I may not be the best person to judge and/or coordinate. Are any of the other eligible judges interested in helping out on #18?
If not, we'll have to figure out a schedule and such with me, Jason and Endarrion.
Hopefully, we have something soon. In the meantime, by all means -- keep talking about Hero Craftsman by giving suggestions, ideas, comments, and so on.
I can't judge this time, but hopefully things will calm down enough next month to let me judge again.
But, please make sure you include the Magic Item Compendium, no matter what. Buying items when limited to other books is just a lot less interesting, IMHO.
If you're an eligible judge, it's not too late to join in on the fun and help us out. Drop me a PM and I'll add you to the list and get you up-to-speed on what we've decided so far!
:angelhide I missed the last Hero Craftsman.As discussed in the HC18 thread, judging still isn't complete for that contest. Even with that, though, I'd like to get the preliminary discussions for HC19 started so we don't lose all our momentum.
As always, first step is finding eligible judges willing to participate. Anybody available?
I think the goal should be to create a character who is generated using standard character generation method and then has a permanent disability or curse slapped onto it. The blind samurai, the Wandering Jew, a diseased wizard, etc. Bestow curse, Blindness/Deafness, Mark of Justice, or a cursed item, could all be used. The character should get no benefit from the disability, which must be more severe than the Flaws listed in Unearthed Arcana.
The character must also explain why his character either cannot or will not have the disability removed. Some examples might be, the curse was laid on him by an epic creature, requiring epic magic to remove, or the curse was a punishment and he will not consent to its removal until he has atoned.
I would suggest a low level for this (at higher levels, PCs can take all sorts of feats and items to overcome their disabilities). Maybe 4th or 5th.
It would be cool if this were a set at a higher level (14-17) that we could pull out all the stops.
@Wrecan: The judges for the 18th competition could enter themselves as Cursed Heroes, it's true!
Frozen Tundra: Heroes who can battle monsters and the fury of the winter wind.
I'd like to suggest a theme:
Frozen Tundra: Heroes who can battle monsters and the fury of the winter wind.
Sadly, this one has already been done. I should know - I got my first gold medal there... I think it was HC #6, but you can check the list on the front page.
I'm somewhat interested in doing a mid-range competition next time I enter, but I have a feeling I may have to tap myself for judging for the next one, so that the beleaguered judges of this contest can take a break...
I can judge this time provided it's kept below, say, 15th level...I'd prefer no higher than 10th, but I'll cap it at 15th.
Something like: "There are many roads that lead to Rome"
Make a multi-class hero that is shaped by the circumstances of his life, rather than a fixed road to power.
And I wondered whether there might be the option of limiting the number of splatbooks allowed for the competition? The Hero Craftsman I entered, I completely lost any entry with the Tome of Battle etc.
Over time, it's covered everything from 'core only' to 'just about anything goes'.
I've participated in competitions where my dear Tome of Battle wasn't allowed, and I've even entered when only the three core plus the SRD was available. I've done pretty well medal-wise in all of them. It takes attention to detail in the mechanics, not what books you use, and it all comes down to background and thematic creativity.
My three medalists were
HC 10: Balag (Corebooks, Sandstorm and one item from Complete Adventurer, Gold medal)
HC 15: Hank Morgan, gunslinger (Corebooks only, Bronze medal)
HC 17: Gerome Rootwalker (Corebooks only, Bronze medal)
*
In addition, use of splatbooks does not a good character make. It can sometimes help in the Rules Use department if someone is looking for optimization, but a core CoD can out perform a Warblade any day. I think the thing with a lot of the splat book entries is that, people who use splats are also often more well-versed in the rules set already, so they are able to work their mechanics better for it. They could do just as well with less splat books, but they get more options that they can play with out of the splats.
We've had at least one Gold Medalist who submitted an entry using core only in a contest where at least a few splat books were allowed.
Make a multi-class hero that is shaped by the circumstances of his life, rather than a fixed road to power.
One of my favorite HCs so far was Hero Craftsman 4 - Welcome to the Monastery, where each entry was ECL 8 and it required multiclassing a monk. I found it a very enjoyable contest, with lots of great entries to explain the monk level.
One of my favorite HCs so far was Hero Craftsman 4 - Welcome to the Monastery, where each entry was ECL 8 and it required multiclassing a monk. I found it a very enjoyable contest, with lots of great entries to explain the monk level.
I've suggested doing something similar with another class, but the idea was rejected because it was too limiting. Which is a shame, because it was an interesting concept. Of course, I also liked the one where everyone had to be good aligned...
Yeah, I don't have any ideas at all...
@Wrecan: The judges for the 18th competition could enter themselves as Cursed Heroes, it's true!
To that, I can most certainly agree. At this rate, I can not judge the next competition. Maybe after the start of the year, things will slow down a bit, but at the moment...
I'm pretty sure my gold in HC#2 was Core Only, but then again, I don't think we used splat-books before #5 or #6. My next gold (I can't remember the number) was in "Love those Sidekicks," and it did use splat books, Complete Warrior to be specific. So, a quality entry can be accomplished w/ or w/o the use of splat books.
From my perspective as a judge, you only lose points for "Power Level" if you somehow manage to fall below the averages presented on the Random NPC chart in the DMG. There are very few people, Core Only or Splat Book Using, that manage to hit such poor marks.
Granted, I don't know what standards other judges may use.
On potential themes, I kind of like the "Charisma-hero" idea that was put forward. Maybe something to the effect of... "Create a hero whose highest stat is... [insert stat here]." Could lead to some interesting entries.
That, and you've got Thanksgiving & Christmas coming up, so you might pull some themes from there. For example, a "Pilgrims/Refugees" theme. Or... a "Characters who eat a lot of food" theme.
Again, if you're an eligible judge but you aren't interested, no sweat. If you're interested and available, though, we could certainly use you on this one.
I also heard from Kit_the_Odd, who is not available.
*
I believe that gives us at least three, right? Talisman, Heros_Backpack, and Mercurius (assuming nobody else steps up).
Would one of you among Haruspex, Talisman, or Heros_Backpack be willing to coordinate? If not, I can handle that - I don't find it particularly difficult, to be honest, though some folks don't like it.
So if one of you three would like to coordinate, just say so here and then send out a PM to the others to get things rolling. If nobody steps up by the end of the weekend, I'll take the coordinator's role.
Unrelated: Does your username mean anything, Zherog? I've Googled it but found nothing other than user accounts (you, presumably). Just curious is all.
Zherog was the name of an elf thief-ranger I had in 2e (and yes, that was against the rules in 2e; so what? :P ) The game never really went anywhere, though, so when I started playing D&D again when 3e came out, I reprised the character - an elf ranger/rogue named Zherog.
When I first tried to register on the forums I used my first initial and last name - like most of my logins other places. But something went wrong, and the name didn't work and I had to choose a different one. I had no idea what else to use, and since it was a D&D forum I used my D&D character's name.
The name Zherog is very loosely based on the jhereg, a creature used as a familiar-like being in a series of novels by Steven Brust. If you haven't read any of the Vlad Taltos books by Brust, I very strongly recommend them. Anyway... I had though a name that started with the letter Z would be cool, and when I saw the word jhereg, I liked the idea of combining the Zh at the beginning. I didn't like the way "Zhereg" sounded in my mind, though, so I played around with some different sounds and settled on Zherog.
And that's where the name comes from and how it came to be my screen name just about everywhere.
So, think of some ideas you like - either ones of your own design or ones mined from this thread. And when the coordinator starts the PMs flying, you can share.
*
At the risk of jinxing myself, I still think I'll have comments for HC18 posted by the end of the weekend.
At the risk of jinxing myself, I still think I'll have comments for HC18 posted by the end of the weekend.
I knew I shoulda kept my mouth shut... it'll be another day or so. It's a top priority for me at the moment - even above some of the paid work I have left to complete.
I knew I shoulda kept my mouth shut... it'll be another day or so. It's a top priority for me at the moment - even above some of the paid work I have left to complete.
RL >>> Forum, don't sweat it.
Look for HC19 to get started up later today, and hopefully Hero Artisan - the new 4e version - will also get its start later this week! Stay tuned!
I am going to estimate that I will not be available to judge until the end of February.
I'd like to compete in the next one, though if we need another judge I can try to make time available. The same is true if we need somebody to coordinate. But my preference is to sit out the next one, if it can be arranged.
On a related note: Switching university courses is really very tedious; I wouldn't recommend it to anyone (unless you really must, of course). ;)
Maybe we should leave an additional post blank on the front page of the contest to list scores, medalists, and maybe even repost comments made by judges. So that readers can view their scores from the front page, rather than finding the appropriate page. Thoughts?
As to the position of Coordinator, I've always thought it was a pretty easy job. It's about an extra 45 minutes worth of work compared to standard judging, and as such, it's not too much extra.
My only reason for not offering to coordinate is b/c I prefer not to judge until after I have moved (and if I'm going to coordinate, I may as well judge... since I can't compete).
Besides, as Z & I can both attest to, you get almost triple the amount of bribes compared to what you receive as a standard judge...
I like Mercius's idea, though to be honest I'm not sure we need to maintain a whole extra post for it. I think just rearranging the list of entries after the contest should suffice. I dunno - maybe it's just my inherent laziness showing...
So, jennibert is in! Any other judges? If you don't speak up now, I'll poke you via PM. ;)
I will give it a shot if you can get no one else involved, however, I'd rather enter a few more competitions and polish up my rules use if possible.
It can't be good for my health...
Yet, I think these competitions are very important, so why not?
Count me among the judges for the next round.
FATE? DO YOU HEAR ME? BRING IT ON!!!
...
Then I must enter!
I doubt I'll have time to judge, but I will do my best to whack together an entry to
Too much else to do.If we can't find another judge, I'll do it, but only if we need someone else.
I had come to the same conclusion, except I was going to keep quiet about it in hopes that somebody else would step up. ;)
1) From the contestants POV, Mercurius and I have different judging standards (though they seem to be close). That means if I judge entry A and he judges entry B, then the two contestants aren't being judged from the same point of view.
2) From a judge POV, such an arrangement would keep us both from entering the contest. And holding out until the last moment so I have a chance to enter is certainly a factor in my procrastination for tossing my hat into the ring, and I suspect it's a factor for Mercurius as well.
If we don't have anybody by tomorrow evening, I'll fill the void.
I'm not so sure it would be fair, for a few reasons.
1) From the contestants POV, Mercurius and I have different judging standards (though they seem to be close). That means if I judge entry A and he judges entry B, then the two contestants aren't being judged from the same point of view.
2) From a judge POV, such an arrangement would keep us both from entering the contest. And holding out until the last moment so I have a chance to enter is certainly a factor in my procrastination for tossing my hat into the ring, and I suspect it's a factor for Mercurius as well.
If we don't have anybody by tomorrow evening, I'll fill the void.
Actually, I agree entirely....I was kidding ;)
Here's hoping I actually come up with a good idea, since I apparently get to participate again :evillaughWe have a level selected; we have a list of books selected; we might have a theme - waiting on one more judge to weigh in with an opinion. Once that's done, Jenny needs to write up the first post and we'll be good to go.
Of course, it could all fall apart and we'll be back at square one. :angelhide
Sorry for the delay in posting, but what real life is zapping my time and I'm just a little delayed in the posting of the next thread. Z and Jason and I have it worked out, I've just been delayed in posting it. Hopefully can get it up tomorrow or Wednesday. Sorry!
Also, I'm okay with judging again, especially if Mercurius will coordinate and so I don't necessarily have to get onto my computer to discuss everything--which, depending on how our basketball team does, I may not have time to do for the next week or so. (Hoping hoping hoping! Go Xavier!)
Mercurius, I'll send out some PMs to the eligible judges to get their attention, to see if we can scare up one more for you.
*
Also for all eligible judges in Hero Craftsman... if you're familiar with the 4e rules, won't you please consider helping out on [thread=1132123]Hero Artisan[/thread], the 4e version of the contest. We're in the process of wrapping up HA2, and we could really use a larger judge pool. All Hero Craftsman judges are eligible to add their name to the Hero Artisan list without entering a contest. This offer will last up until judges are picked for HA5. So if you have interest in helping get the 4e version rolling smoother, please toss your name into the hat in that setup thread.
Hopefully we can scrounge up at least one more judge.
I've been 75% or so done with an entry for the last 3 or so contests and just never seem to get them finished up in time. However, I do find reading and judging backgrounds and mechanics quicker than writing them. After all, I don't have to weigh and pick between the possibilities, just tell other people why they made the wrong choice.
Mercurius, you should be able to get the brainstorming on theme, level, and available sources running now with you, Jenni and Kit. (assuming you still want to coordinate, of course.)
Eligible judges are welcome to jump in at any point here up until HC21 is posted! The more the merrier!
Oh, and thanks to Mercurius and Jenni as well!
Here's my gift to you...
*pulls out brand new Scroll of Protection from Murphy*
Ok... now, I'm not an arcane caster, so I have to make a Use Magic Device check...
*rolls dice*
(scroll bursts into flame, demons scream forth, the sound of children weeping is heard in the distance)
That's odd. I rolled a Natural 20, and it still didn't work. I'm beginning to think that there's no counter for the Curse of Murphy. Sorry guys. I tried.
[thread=1132123]Hero Artisan[/thread] - the 4e version of the contest - just wrapped up its 3rd installment, and we're looking for judges for #4. In order to get the largest judging base possible, we've declared all Hero Craftsman judges as eligible. This "grandfathering" will last until HA5 starts up.
If you're an eligible HC judge who's familiar with the 4e ruleset, and you have time for judging, we could use your help. Please send me a PM or post in the thread linked above.
If you're not interested in 4e, don't have a firm grasp of the rules, or don't have time, well... don't sweat it. As always, judging is voluntary and nobody should feel guilty if they're unavailable or uninterested.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled wait.
Time to get the ball rolling for a new contest. Are any eligible judges willing to volunteer before I commence poking and prodding via PM?
To make the commitment even more difficult, I'd like any judges for the next competition to commit to getting done scoring within 2 weeks of the close of the contest. The best way to go about that, probably, is to judge entries as they're posted.I can serve as coordinator if nobody wants the job.
I'm getting ready to move into a new house, and my internet provider initially told me service would still be available, which now isn't the case at all.
As it stands, I will probably be without regular internet service for the next 3-4 months, and as such, not fit to judge any of the HC contests. I do miss judging, but until I have reliable internet access, I'm afraid I can't throw my hat in the ring.
Sorry guys.
I'll send out PMs later to all the judges, but I'm hopeful just bringing this to the top helps a bit, too.
Also, in addition to Hero Craftsman looking for judges for HC22, Hero Artisan, the 4e version, is also searching for judges for HA5. This is the last Hero Artisan contest HC judges will be permitted to be "grandfathered" into eligibility. So if anybody on the HC list has interest in being added to the HA list of judges, you have until HA5 starts to let me know. Otherwise, you'll have to earn your way in!
Cheers!
bump, just so I can find this. Things are certainly in flux, but if any HC judges are interested in getting a contest together, please let me know.
Yay, more bumps!
While I sincerely wish I could volunteer to assist in judging to help keep the competition going, I'm afraid I'll be out for probably the next year or so. I'm already starting to suffer from what my boss refers to as "Mommy brain" and I'm not even very far along! I'll try to bully Mercurius into helping out, but can make no promises.
Bullied by a pregnant lady - can't sink much lower than that.
Though I understand that pregnancy adds a couple of levels to the CR of the templated creature...
I guess it's a good thing that the HC wound up being delayed, what with the forums being down for two weeks or so. Not sure how entries will look now that there aren't spoiler tags to keep them neat and orderly. [insert old-school awesome emoticon here, only there aren't any now].
Yay, more bumps!
While I sincerely wish I could volunteer to assist in judging to help keep the competition going, I'm afraid I'll be out for probably the next year or so. I'm already starting to suffer from what my boss refers to as "Mommy brain" and I'm not even very far along! I'll try to bully Mercurius into helping out, but can make no promises.
Whoa! You're expecting? Congrats! I hope both you and the baby remain healthy.
I guess it's a good thing that the HC wound up being delayed, what with the forums being down for two weeks or so. Not sure how entries will look now that there aren't spoiler tags to keep them neat and orderly. [insert old-school awesome emoticon here, only there aren't any now].
I've been told that working on restoring many of the old tags (including sblock) is pretty high on the priority list. They know about the smilies. I raised it as one of my first issues -- I've been here throughout the downtime -- but I don't know what priority that one has.
I could not find a group for this forum. Is there a "What's a player to do" group?
Nope, it's just part of the forums like it was before.
Heh, heheheh... oops
Any progress with Hero Craftsman?
Engage Bumpifier!
Sorry for my non-participation. I've had connectivity issues at home and my employer has blocked the site from the time of the conversion until today. I'm baaaack.
I can coordinate and (heaven help me) judge. Who else is available?
One note: we need to rethink the "30 minutes to edit" rule. The new software doesn't record "last edit" date/time information, so there's no way to know if somebody broke the rule. Here's what the DM contests are doing, and what the Hero Artisan contest is probably adopting.
You can edit your post whenever you want to. However, a judge can judge your post when he/she wants to. If your edit comes after the judge has done his/her thing, you're out of luck and get judged on the previous copy.
Thoughts?
I'm okay with that rule.
I wish I could offer to judge, but that just isn't going to work right now. But I really want to see the contests back up and running.
I wish I could offer to judge, but that just isn't going to work right now. But I really want to see the contests back up and running.
Me too, so I'm going to try to squeeze some time from my schedule to get it done. Sleep is for the weak. ;)
Sleep is a poor substitute for caffeine