Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 imadipp Dec 17, 2012 7:20:38	I have the opportunity to make a paragon character soon and I'm filling in a striker roll. The group comp would be a knight, fighter, rogue, runepriest and what I pick. My question is; what is your experience with either class? How much fun was it to play to you, did you enjoy the role you filled in group? I've played both classes but never at paragon. I assume the hexblade would get more fun with some levels but the assassins at will teleport give some interesting positioning tools. How's your experience been?
#2 Matyr Dec 17, 2012 11:02:13	I have played neither (I almost exclusively DM) but I can pass on feedback from players. Assassin seems cool, but their choices of abilities are fairly limited.  They are also behind the powercurve by a bit if you are playing with people who optimize a bit (and you aren't either houseruling in a fix to assassins or working with really iffy wording loopholes).  A player of mine to played an assassin into paragon became a rogue in paragon and was much happier. Hexblade is unintuitively designed and there are still some gray areas to how certain things on them work.  The big issue is they have even less staying-interesting power than the Assassin.  Primarily what I would expect from a Hexblade is some manner of Reserve Maneuver to get a decent lock power for your E11 and a really tricky MBA (Slide + Prone + Good damage).  Its fun for a couple of levels, but if you are looking for something mechanically deep its just not gonna compare to some of the Oclasses. All that being said, it depends on the playstyle of the group and what kind of character you are wanting to play.  Does your group focus mainly on flying through the combats and they are just breaks in the story, or do they want it to work like a well-oiled machine with a good challenge in most fights?  Personally the only E-Class I would ever play is a Slayer and even then only in a group with a good enabler (which I find the runepriest isnt). Remember that the mechanics, for better or for worse, generally aren't considered very changeable, but the fluff is completely changeable.  What I would say is make the character's story first and then come back and we can help you refluff it into something cool.  If you are just asking about which of the two to play, I'd say Assassin but just barely.
#3 frothsof Dec 17, 2012 11:45:00	if you mean the essentials assassin (executioner) and the hexblade, although im fine with both, i feel the assassin's suite of powers are much more fun and flavorful than the hexblade. ninjas are awesome!
#4 mexrage Dec 17, 2012 11:50:59	I prefer hexblade, it's alot more flexible, you still get access to the great warlock dailies and some of the best MBA at-wills on the game...fey pact (both) will give you alot more mobility than shroud assassin...hexblade damage output is usually also higher than the assassin...
#5 Neutronium_Dragon Dec 18, 2012 0:50:10	Given the rest of the party, the hexblade is also likely to be a better pick in terms of flexibility.
#6 imadipp Dec 18, 2012 7:13:28	I should probably elaborate on the characters a bit more. The assassin is a bleak disciple revenant, soul thief pp, focused on killing bloodied targets and so on. The hexblade is a gloom blade, academy master pp, focused more on doing good damage while imposing nasty effects. One thing I see for both is mm the party has two defenders, and while the hexblade would have steady at will damage, the assassin count burst down more cruicial targets.
#7 Matyr Dec 18, 2012 14:43:51	I should probably elaborate on the characters a bit more. The assassin is a bleak disciple revenant, soul thief pp, focused on killing bloodied targets and so on. The hexblade is a gloom blade, academy master pp, focused more on doing good damage while imposing nasty effects. One thing I see for both is mm the party has two defenders, and while the hexblade would have steady at will damage, the assassin count burst down more cruicial targets. The only problem here is that the Assassin's "Bursting down" is really bad compared to other strikers unless you are using really iffy rules interpretations and/or have a houserule to bring them up to par.
#8 imadipp Dec 18, 2012 15:53:09	I'm not really familar with paragon, only a few strikers i've played around that level. Our rogue seems like she'll be doing well, but she's ranged. I assumed with lethal shroud, a 1d8 +5 on every hit would help. If I play tactically and throw shrouds on a target, and only invoke when they become bloodied or low, I'll be killing enough to make use of Soul Thief. I do have to say that the Hexblade is going to have a damage advantage, comparing at wills, but really it's the -2 to hit and proning I can see being more useful to the party, becomming more of an enabler. I'll post both characters as far as they've been made, to show my goals. I'm still looking for flavor as well. If the hexblade is better, sure, but if he's not as fun and I lose interest, because of the at-will spam... The campaign isn't very rp heavy, we do somewhat, but it's more 3rd person perspective. Vex, Hexblade ====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ====== Vex, level 11 Satyr, Warlock (Hexblade), Academy Master Pact: Gloom Pact (Hexblade) The Demon Binder (+2 to Arcana) Theme: Gloomwrought Emissary   FINAL ABILITY SCORES STR 11, CON 13, DEX 21, INT 9, WIS 13, CHA 21   STARTING ABILITY SCORES STR 10, CON 12, DEX 16, INT 8, WIS 12, CHA 16     AC: 24 Fort: 21 Ref: 25 Will: 25 HP: 75 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 18   TRAINED SKILLS Arcana +13, Bluff +15, Insight +11, Perception +11, Stealth +17   UNTRAINED SKILLS Acrobatics +10, Athletics +5, Diplomacy +12, Dungeoneering +6, Endurance +6, Heal +6, History +4, Intimidate +10, Nature +8, Religion +4, Streetwise +12, Thievery +12   POWERS Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack Gloomwrought Emissary Attack: Strike from the Shadows Satyr Utility: Lure of Enchantment Warlock Utility: Convocation of Shadows Warlock Attack: Flesh Rend Warlock Attack: Spirit Flay Warlock Attack: Shadow Scourge Warlock Attack 1: Eldritch Bolt Warlock Attack 1: Armor of Winter's Grasp Warlock Utility 2: Ethereal Stride Bluff Utility 2: False Bravado Warlock Attack 5: Roaring Storm of Cania Warlock Utility 6: Fey Switch Warlock Attack 9: Summon Warlock's Ally Insight Utility 10: Prescient Defense Academy Master Attack 11: Learned Boost   FEATS Level 1: Practiced Killer Level 2: Flail Expertise Level 4: Improved Defenses Level 6: Superior Implement Training (Accurate ki focus) Level 8: Implement Focus (Ki focuses) Level 10: Cursed Shadow Level 11: Minion of the Dark   ITEMS Scourge of Exquisite Agony x1 Adventurer's Kit Iron Body Accurate ki focus +2 x1 Blending Leather Armor +2 x1 Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier) x1 Boots of Quickness (heroic tier) x1 Life-Draining Gauntlets (heroic tier) x1 Fey-Blessed Circlet x1 Periapt of Cascading Health +2 x1 Rope of Slave Fighting (heroic tier) x1 ====== End ======
#9 Noctaem Dec 18, 2012 16:24:09	try to use statblocks ["sblock=name of the statblock] INFO inside statblock ["/sblock] Remove the quotation marks in front of sblock and /sblock to make it work. EX: like this Boo !
#10 imadipp Dec 18, 2012 16:29:41	Thanks for the info :D
#11 Matyr Dec 18, 2012 18:26:49	I'm not really familar with paragon, only a few strikers i've played around that level. Our rogue seems like she'll be doing well, but she's ranged. I assumed with lethal shroud, a 1d8 +5 on every hit would help. If I play tactically and throw shrouds on a target, and only invoke when they become bloodied or low, I'll be killing enough to make use of Soul Thief. I do have to say that the Hexblade is going to have a damage advantage, comparing at wills, but really it's the -2 to hit and proning I can see being more useful to the party, becomming more of an enabler. I'll post both characters as far as they've been made, to show my goals. I'm still looking for flavor as well. If the hexblade is better, sure, but if he's not as fun and I lose interest, because of the at-will spam... The campaign isn't very rp heavy, we do somewhat, but it's more 3rd person perspective. Vex, Hexblade ====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ====== Vex, level 11 Satyr, Warlock (Hexblade), Academy Master Pact: Gloom Pact (Hexblade) The Demon Binder (+2 to Arcana) Theme: Gloomwrought Emissary   FINAL ABILITY SCORES STR 11, CON 13, DEX 21, INT 9, WIS 13, CHA 21   STARTING ABILITY SCORES STR 10, CON 12, DEX 16, INT 8, WIS 12, CHA 16     AC: 24 Fort: 21 Ref: 25 Will: 25 HP: 75 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 18   TRAINED SKILLS Arcana +13, Bluff +15, Insight +11, Perception +11, Stealth +17   UNTRAINED SKILLS Acrobatics +10, Athletics +5, Diplomacy +12, Dungeoneering +6, Endurance +6, Heal +6, History +4, Intimidate +10, Nature +8, Religion +4, Streetwise +12, Thievery +12   POWERS Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack Gloomwrought Emissary Attack: Strike from the Shadows Satyr Utility: Lure of Enchantment Warlock Utility: Convocation of Shadows Warlock Attack: Flesh Rend Warlock Attack: Spirit Flay Warlock Attack: Shadow Scourge Warlock Attack 1: Eldritch Bolt Warlock Attack 1: Armor of Winter's Grasp Warlock Utility 2: Ethereal Stride Bluff Utility 2: False Bravado Warlock Attack 5: Roaring Storm of Cania Warlock Utility 6: Fey Switch Warlock Attack 9: Summon Warlock's Ally Insight Utility 10: Prescient Defense Academy Master Attack 11: Learned Boost   FEATS Level 1: Practiced Killer Level 2: Flail Expertise Level 4: Improved Defenses Level 6: Superior Implement Training (Accurate ki focus) Level 8: Implement Focus (Ki focuses) Level 10: Cursed Shadow Level 11: Minion of the Dark   ITEMS Scourge of Exquisite Agony x1 Adventurer's Kit Iron Body Accurate ki focus +2 x1 Blending Leather Armor +2 x1 Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier) x1 Boots of Quickness (heroic tier) x1 Life-Draining Gauntlets (heroic tier) x1 Fey-Blessed Circlet x1 Periapt of Cascading Health +2 x1 Rope of Slave Fighting (heroic tier) x1 ====== End ======
#12 imadipp Dec 18, 2012 19:11:55	I feel the party already is going to take it's time in fights, something I don't exactly care for but that's just how it looks. A knight and a polearm fighter will be fighting for the enemies, the runepriest has a prevention abilities to give AC or temporary hit points, the rogue is the ranged option so I'm not sure how well she's going to work out. By your numbers, no I won't be up to standard with either character just due to 70 damange per round seeming a little excessive. My At-will for the Hexblade, who does more damage, is +17 vs AC, 1d10 +18. Per turn with one attack, I have 28 maximum damage, how is one supposed to get to 70 per round? Even with Learned boost, from the Academy Master pp, I can turn my at will into a 3d10 + 18, which I thought was great. That's still only 48 damage though. How would would you even get close to 70?
#13 Matyr Dec 18, 2012 19:45:48	I feel the party already is going to take it's time in fights, something I don't exactly care for but that's just how it looks. A knight and a polearm fighter will be fighting for the enemies, the runepriest has a prevention abilities to give AC or temporary hit points, the rogue is the ranged option so I'm not sure how well she's going to work out. By your numbers, no I won't be up to standard with either character just due to 70 damange per round seeming a little excessive. My At-will for the Hexblade, who does more damage, is +17 vs AC, 1d10 +18. Per turn with one attack, I have 28 maximum damage, how is one supposed to get to 70 per round? Even with Learned boost, from the Academy Master pp, I can turn my at will into a 3d10 + 18, which I thought was great. That's still only 48 damage though. How would would you even get close to 70? I was actually being a little unfair there.  3/5 is actually the mark of a highly optimized striker.  The real number you should be hunting for it 2/5.  So rather than 70 average DPR you want is more like 45 DPR. How you go about doing it is having good power selection, strong features, feats that synergize well and a good understanding of the class itself (or at least have read the handbooks and know basically what's up).
#14 Matyr Dec 18, 2012 19:53:04	Lets compare with something most people would say is a meh example of KPR: The charge slayer. In charge stance while charging the slayer that I just have sitting around (which is about a 8/10 as far as optimizing goes) is doing this with a charge when charging into CA: +24 v AC (CA included, so +22 v AC no CA) 4d6b1+1d6+1d8+30 (Average of 12+4+8+30 = 54 average) If the character uses the daily boots to hit with an encounter power at the end of the charge (and power strikes) it ends up something like this: +24 v AC 6d6b1+1d6+1d8+15 (and prone) + 4d6b1+1d6+1d8+20 + 4d6b1+1d6+1d8+20 (Average of 6+18+8+15 + 12 +4 + 8 +20 + 12 + 4 +8 + 20 = 135 [I think]) Editted to include average damages.  Granted this is average damage on a hit and not DPR, but I'm too lazy to do DPR at the moment.
#15 imadipp Dec 18, 2012 20:51:30	We had a Barbarian charger, taking every charge friendly item she could find as we leveled, got about to level 8 and she was a freight train, and it was fun for her. That's where I'm looking, If the class is fun I can stand lower dpr, as long as i'm doing the best I can with what I have. How are you getting +30 to your damage modifier in that case? or your hit being that high? This was level 11 considerd I assume?
#16 Matyr Dec 18, 2012 21:32:15	We had a Barbarian charger, taking every charge friendly item she could find as we leveled, got about to level 8 and she was a freight train, and it was fun for her. That's where I'm looking, If the class is fun I can stand lower dpr, as long as i'm doing the best I can with what I have. How are you getting +30 to your damage modifier in that case? or your hit being that high? This was level 11 considerd I assume? yes this is level 11. Now, I can guess what she did but I dont have her sheet (only her cheat sheet).  But mostly its pretty standard stuff.  You charge with everything charge can give you and murder the person at the end of the charge.  The Nova thing is her popping Boots of the Mighty Charge to Rain of Blows someone with a Power Strike tacked on.
#17 Zathris Dec 19, 2012 6:45:45	We had a Barbarian charger, taking every charge friendly item she could find as we leveled, got about to level 8 and she was a freight train, and it was fun for her. That's where I'm looking, If the class is fun I can stand lower dpr, as long as i'm doing the best I can with what I have. How are you getting +30 to your damage modifier in that case? or your hit being that high? This was level 11 considerd I assume? yes this is level 11. Now, I can guess what she did but I dont have her sheet (only her cheat sheet).  But mostly its pretty standard stuff.  You charge with everything charge can give you and murder the person at the end of the charge.  The Nova thing is her popping Boots of the Mighty Charge to Rain of Blows someone with a Power Strike tacked on.  Which you're not allowed to do! Power Strike requires you to MBA. Accuracy is going to be 5 Level  6 Str +3 Enh +2 Feat +2 Prof +1 Charge +2 Stance +1 Talent = 22. You can actually stack another +1 Hit with the right PP, and next level (I assume) take a feat that lets you target Reflex instead of AC with MBAs, at which point you'd probably switch to the Duelist Stance for +4 Power Bonus to Damage. Damage is going to be 6 Str +4 Dex +2 Class +3 Enh +3 Feat +3 Shard +4 Item +2 2H Expertise +2 Spear Expertise = 30
#18 imadipp Dec 19, 2012 10:31:39	So she made a very optimized charger and used slayer as the base class it seem. While total optimization wasn't my goal, how would an assassin get to that level of damage come paragon? Charge optimization has a lot of ways to boost damage, I understand that, but if cant be the only viable way to do so, can it? I suppose it's also a little unfair in the slayers favor, since it's a stance using essentials class, optimizing around charging is probably the best option.
#19 Matyr Dec 19, 2012 14:19:55	So she made a very optimized charger and used slayer as the base class it seem. While total optimization wasn't my goal, how would an assassin get to that level of damage come paragon? Charge optimization has a lot of ways to boost damage, I understand that, but if cant be the only viable way to do so, can it? I suppose it's also a little unfair in the slayers favor, since it's a stance using essentials class, optimizing around charging is probably the best option. I'm not saying you have the be at that level of optimization, I'm just trying to give you something to compare to.  You don't need to hit as hard as an optimized slayer, but you should be somewhere in the same ballpark. I actually didn't know you couldn't use your Powerstrike before you replaced the MBA,  Thats actually interesting enough that I'll need to look through it when I get home (since that is how she has been playing for a bit). All that being said I don't actually know how (outside of really shady reading) to make the assassin do that much damage.  I won't say it isn't possible, but I will say I haven't seen it.  Assassin is just really low on the totempole of damages.
#20 alester_veran Dec 19, 2012 16:11:57	(This is Imadipp2, on his own account for once.) I wonder then, If I could keep the fluff of the characters, with another melee striker class that's more optimal for our party setup. A friend suggested combining them because the Nightstalker path has more Dpr, and just using the Satyr's fluff (actual character design) Versus Raziel's fluff (Stolen from the Soul Reaver game series in a rather well done role assessment).
#21 Zathris Dec 21, 2012 7:05:08	While total optimization wasn't my goal, how would an assassin get to that level of damage come paragon? You really can't without non-intuitive (but still RAW) applications of powers. Implements are worse supported than Weapons. Shrouds are not particularly well designed, and Assassin's lack (at least in the first half of the game) 2 of the 3 ways of being a viable Striker (Multi-attacks, and Charging) and have a rather difficult time with the 3rd (Crit-Op). There is a Handbook on Charop that details most of the tricky tricks that you can use to be competent, but it takes Party-Op and a DM willing to let you stack shrouds out of combat to reach the levels of a Better-than-Good Slayer.
#22 alester_veran Dec 22, 2012 7:42:49	We decided to go with heroic tier to start after some issues with two if the characters not being well designed (they do t want to look up any optimization threads). Currently I'm trying a revenant (githzerai) assassin, but I made a spiked chain wielding gnoll scout that looks like he'll wipe the floor with everyone else. If I'm reading the charging ram stance correctly, you connect with a charge, drop the target prone, attack, and then if you have the boots of adept charging, can shift before the free action second attack? If that's correct you have a light blade, reach using charger. My main goal is -fun-, I just don't know if the assassins lack of damage will compensate for the fluff of the character. While the gnoll is very much more effective. Especially considering our warlord.
#23 erevan127 Apr 24, 2013 16:53:33	Hey all, New to playing an Eladrin Rouge and am a little mixed on the rlues of Fey Step. If it's an "instant" can I use it as a defence to avoid an attack on an off turn if i held my action? Also any suggestions on how to max out my Fey ability? Thank you!