Hey - I'm new here, and I got a small problem with one of my players - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

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#1 dalkin0 Feb 11, 2009 23:15:26	Hey all... I just finished registering so this is my first post! Yay for me. So! Long story short... I am a DM. And I have this campaign going on. And for the most part its good. Its just me and 2 others on a biweekly game night kind of thing... But I have a problem with one of my players. He doesn't remeber anything. We've been playing for several months now and I thought by now he'd remeber something but... I mean, everything is an issue. He never remebers what dice he has to roll to make an attack, and always forgets to add his modifiers. He doesn't know where his HP box is and how many healing surges he has (nevermind that its written down for him), has no idea which die he has to roll for damage (Its a d10) and he asks these things every. single. combat. round. Every round. I kid you not. It goes like this (remeber, litteraly every round, no word of a lie): "Ok Dragonis, what do you do?" "Um... I attack." "Please roll." "Uh... which dice is it?" "Its the d20." "Is it this one?" holds up the d6 "No. the d20 is that one there." rolls "I got a 13." "Okay, then you miss... wait, did you add your strength mod?" "Strength mod?" "Yes. Did you?" "I don't know." sigh "In that case, you got a 16" (his strength mod is 3) so you hit. roll for damage. "how do i do that?" "Roll the d8" rolls the d20 "I got 17. "Well no. the d8 is that one there" points to the d8 "Ohh... Ok." rolls* "crap, I got one." "did you add your strength mod?" "no. Whats strength mod again?" points to character sheet "right there. what is it?" "It says 1" (reading his ratial modifier) "What does it say in the bubble?" "Oh. it says 3." "Okay, you do 4 damage." Repeat this every single combat round. Now, hes a nice guy, and I thought he wasn't paying attention simply because he doesn't like the game... But hes my most eager player, and assured me he loves d&d. The problem most likely lays in the fact that hes a new player and hasn't had much hands on time, but at the same time I'd like for him to at least remember how to roll attack and damage to speed things up. And you might think I've not explained things to him well, but thats quite the opposite. I've told him many times over that to attack someone you roll to see if you hit with the d20 and if you hit then you roll damage... I just dont know how else to tell him now. Also, its hindering gameplay a bit... I've thrown at my group only minions for the first dungeon (though, they ended up fighting 6 at a time and almost lost), but... my group is in the habit of useing only basic melee attacks which makes for bland encounters... Im trying to remedy this somewhat by throwing some unique enemies at them (last session i threw in a few Skulk (sp?) Zombies from open grave. The wall climbing thing worked pretty good...) so we can get my group of n00bs thinking outside of smashing things endlessly with their weapons. In the mean time, is there anything I can do to get my poor friend to remeber how to play the game...?
#2 ciaran Feb 11, 2009 23:21:58	After several months he should have the concept of using a d20 to determine the outcome of an action. I'd start holding back the constant reminders. You might be enabling him. Make him think about it. If he can't or won't then move on. Its tough love but you deserve to have fun too.
#3 navar100 Feb 11, 2009 23:45:47	Purposely being cynical, but ... Have you thought the player might be doing this on purpose, for whatever reason?
#4 Keiichi_m Feb 12, 2009 1:50:21	I had an issue (not as severe as this one) like this with my girlfriend, I worked it on a reward scale; the more she learned the more naked I got. She now knows almost all of the rules for her character, unfortunantly I somehow don't see that working in this case. Tough love, or talk to him about it. Tell him he really needs to start paying more attention and put a little more effort into the game, you spend several hours putting the adventure together and learning most of the rules to run the game, the least he can do is learn his dice.
#5 brashnir Feb 12, 2009 2:11:53	Have him run the monsters for a combat while you run his character. This will force him to make a bunch of attack rolls and keep track of HPs, and will also allow you to show him of his character's better abilities. edit - since you said minions, I assume this is 4E. after making him run the monsters for an encounter, give his character back. Make sure he has power cards printed out for his abilities. Set them in front of him, with bonuses pre-calculated and make him pick one each time he says, "I attack."
#6 kouk Feb 12, 2009 2:47:56	Yeah, precalculated power cards, and color-coded dice. And have him read the book.
#7 caradrius Feb 12, 2009 3:45:38	If you have been playing for more than a few sessions, seriously, he should know at the least the general idea of how to kill stuff. maybe D&D isn't his game?
#8 m-bark Feb 12, 2009 5:29:45	Don't worry all too much about it. An enthusiastic player does not necessarily have to be one to pick things up quickly. He doesn't sound like the brightest lamp in the courtyard but at least he wants to try. Kouk's advice sounds like a thing to try.
#9 DevoDog Feb 12, 2009 8:28:32	Yeah, precalculated power cards, and color-coded dice. I would definitely agree with different colored dice (something so simple that many of us would never even think of it....although I thought of it just before I scrolled and saw this post). It sounds like, to me, the player is going into shutdown mode by being overwhelmed......OR the player is doing this intentionally....OR the player has some serious cognitive issues (either an actual disability, stress, or the player is "on" something when they game with you). If it's the first issue....use power cards and different colored dice. If it's the third issue....use power cards, different colored dice and LOADS of patience (depending on the reason for the cognitive issues). If it's the second issue...you'll have to decide how you want to deal with it.
#10 m-bark Feb 12, 2009 8:38:53	Also, I think a big problem is going to be the skill point system as well. You may want to consider using a skill system similar to the one in the Star Wars RPG for simplicity, so that he won't bump his head as many times. It simply goes like this: you get a number of skills you are trained in, and get a +5 bonus to that skill. You get a bonus to all skills equal to half your character level, and of course the bonus from a high ability score. That's it. No messing around with teensy tiny skill points. I know for one my fellow players had trouble with that, and sometimes still do. This system is just easier.
#11 azrael_the_dark Feb 12, 2009 8:55:22	Also, I think a big problem is going to be the skill point system as well. You may want to consider using a skill system similar to the one in the Star Wars RPG for simplicity, so that he won't bump his head as many times. It simply goes like this: you get a number of skills you are trained in, and get a +5 bonus to that skill. You get a bonus to all skills equal to half your character level, and of course the bonus from a high ability score. That's it. No messing around with teensy tiny skill points. I know for one my fellow players had trouble with that, and sometimes still do. This system is just easier. Well, OP said "minions". Minions, that should mean to us that he's playing 4E. So, the skills system is already as you described.
#12 ritreaude Feb 12, 2009 9:49:39	might i suggest him buying Dungeons and Dragons for Dummies, its a little more approachable than the players handbook for some newbies.
#13 Krusk Feb 12, 2009 13:48:53	I had an issue (not as severe as this one) like this with my girlfriend, I worked it on a reward scale; the more she learned the more naked I got. She now knows almost all of the rules for her character, unfortunantly I somehow don't see that working in this case. Before we throw out a great idea like this, what if we just make a couple of changes. You start naked, and everytime the correct die is used, you get less so. I can see my players figuring out how to play real fast. You could consider cutting back on the combats per session and doing more of the in town talks with NPCs and the like. Did the player make their own character or did you give a prewritten one? I find that if you prewrite it, they don't follow where the numbers are or where they are added, but if they write it they at least know "This is my attack mod, I don't know where to add it, but I know where to find it". As for which die is the d20 and which is the d8, explain that you can count the sides to figure it out. One has 20, and one has 8.
#14 Kerrus Feb 12, 2009 14:15:36	Yeah, I'd suggest running him through some simple math drills to figure out just where his disconnect is. If he has no problem with the math, then he shouldn't have a problem with the rules if you maybe take some time aside and drill him on it, rather then expecting him to be able to do it in the midst of combat. Simple stuff like 1 + 1, 2 + 2, and what does this (%) symbol mean. Not to demean or anything, but to see if this is a more serious problem then being unable to remember anything. Something extending that which you could do is test him on the character sheet. Run him through how it works, and try and explain that in general the character sheet will tell him what he needs to know- but he needs to be able to put it together. Then take the sheet away and ask him some basic questions. Work from smaller questions to bigger questions. ie: 1. Where on my sheet is my strength modifier? 2. What is my strength modifier if my strength is (insert number) 3. Where on the sheet is my Base Attack Bonus? 4. If I want to attack an enemy with a melee weapon, what are the bonuses I need to apply? (Strength mod, BAB, weapon enhancements, feats) Run him through that sort of course a couple times. At the begining of each session ask run him through it. Then, after a couple of sessions of it, change the questions. Now, if he doesn't improve then there's definitely a serious cognitive issue going on, and you're going to need cue cards or something.
#15 trei Feb 12, 2009 17:00:47	In my group we are regularly getting new members and phasing out the old, and we currently have a couple problematic ones much like the player you described. But we developed a system and it is working so far. First step is, we ran through an example encounter before the night's game got started, as a reminder. Next step, we had a veteran buddy up with a new player, to "coach" them, as it were. Thirdly, and most importantly, we were patient. We always allowed calculators at the table, of course, and encouraged the new players to write notes and pre-calculated values on their sheets. This system worked VERY well for one, but the other still has a difficult time remembering which dice to use when, and what things to add. So when the player failed to adapt to our pace, the DM simply adapted to her! Instead of saying "roll a balance check," he'd say "Roll a d20 and add your balance skill bonus for me. So it takes another half second to say the sentence -- but at least she's not slowed down 5 minutes every time she takes a turn! The buddy also adapted. Right before her turn, he would be whispering to her, saying "Roll the d20 and add THIS when you attack. If you hit, roll a d6 and add THIS for damage." It's working. Slowly. The problem with giving people time limits is that it would intimidate her, and she started holding action every turn while she stared in horror at all the numbers on her sheet. So I wouldn't reccommend that, unless it is a last, last, LAST resort measure.
#16 steelworker Feb 13, 2009 0:25:13	Something else that might be a problem is the 4E character sheet. The official sheet is cluttered and a bit imposing when you're searching for quick info. There isn't a good space for writing your basic attacks in either. I'm going to be starting a 4E campaign next week for mostly new players (my family). None of us have played 4E before. I decided to put some work into a "cheat sheet", to make the first few sessions run a bit smoother. I'm going to make them fill a character sheet out, but also provide them a Combat handout that they can fill in. Handout Name: HP: Bloodied: Healing Surge/day: (space for doing Hit point math) Taking your turn: Every turn you can take one of each of these actions. Standard action: swinging a weapon, using a power Move action: walking your speed, climbing a rope Minor action: grabbing something out of your belt pouch How to roll Attacks: For a melee attack you add: 1/2 your level + STR + other bonuses + 20 sided My basic melee attack is: 1d20 + For a ranged attack you add: 1/2 your level + DEX + other bonuses + 20 sided My basic ranged attack is: 1d20 + My Class abilities: (space for scribbling down abilites)
#17 m-bark Feb 13, 2009 3:42:06	Well, OP said "minions". Minions, that should mean to us that he's playing 4E. So, the skills system is already as you described. Right, never mind then.
#18 mycroftb Feb 13, 2009 9:49:18	Seconding the call for color-coded dice, power cards, and a simplified character sheet. There's no excuse for any player to fall back on a basic attack all the time, unless they do so because they don't understand the power system. It really sounds like the players could use a back-to-square-one tutorial session. Start simple and slow. Most seem to already have the basic attack down. Move on to explaining and demonstrating an at-will attack power. Then demonstrate encounter and daily powers. Then opportunity attacks, second wind, flanking and other combat advantage, skills, and so on. For each situation, don't just tell, show - set up an instance on the battle mat where they use what they're learning. Then, after a bit more reinforcing, have an obstacle course at the end. If you want a cliche story reason, have some kids approach the characters on the street and be wide-eyed and full of awe at seeing some OMG real live adventurers! The kids ask the PCs to show off some of their cool adventuring movies, and slip into tutorial mode. Let them know that they can roleplay the kids asking questions of their characters, and reward them if they "ask a question" and demonstrate something you haven't tutorial'd yet. At the end of it all, once you're sure they've got a good grip on things, then, oh no! A real fight breaks out, and one or more of the kids is in danger! Can our heroes save them unaided? ... Yeah, as I said, really cliche, but sometimes cliche works.
#19 Man_in_the_Funny_Hat Feb 13, 2009 11:35:23	Good suggestions, but don't forget Item #19 of my D&D manifesto: Players must learn the rules. Nobody needs to pass a rules knowledge test or memorize it all - not even the DM. But it's more than reasonable to expect that players read the entire Players Handbook and be able to understand it. Anyone new to the game needs to accept that they will need to do a lot of reading and put some effort into learning the game, and there is a lot of information they need to absorb right from the start. The basics of the game can be taught in short order, perhaps an hour or at most one game session. After a few sessions of play they should NOT require having basics repeatedly explained. The more time you spend playing the game as a new player the more you should be reading the rules, RE-reading the rules, and paying attention to the application of the rules to other players and their characters, not just your own. Players who can't be bothered to read and understand spells that their character casts, general combat rules, and the workings of the skill system should only be given so much leeway before a DM asks them to leave. Only if the DM informs players up front that the rules DON'T MATTER, or the player actually has learning disabilities is anyone excused from achieving a general, functional knowledge of the game.
#20 chaosturtle Feb 13, 2009 16:29:44	Maybe try and get together with him more then every other week and run a few small things if your schedules allow for it.
#21 ciaran Feb 13, 2009 19:20:28	Maybe he doesn't mind being told again and again. Its a guess but maybe its just easier for him to not bother understanding. Different people respond to different stimulus. You'll have to experiment. Regardless, don't just tell him like you have been doing. Maybe ask him a couple of "Where on your sheet is..." type of qustions before the session starts. When he looks at the sheet blankly, tell him he needs to actually read what the words say.
#22 EricaG Feb 13, 2009 20:35:33	HI. I had very similar problems when i added a friend with learning disabilities (adhd and dyslexia). To help her learn the dice i put the highest number facing up at the beginning of the game and when i say "you roll a d20 to attack" and she can see there is only one with a 20, and set it back face up after rolling. We also made sure the commonly used info like attack and saves had all modifiers added in already. She keeps track of hp and limited use things with small post-it notes on her sheet. We have a calculator for her, and ask her every time to look at her sheet before we point out where something is, and then she still has to read it to us. After all that, we still have to help her remember some detail or another most rounds, but she's getting better all the time. another DM task, teacher.
#23 etarnon Feb 14, 2009 7:07:11	Trei, Bravo to you and your group. A win for openness. I've played with people that were blind, partially deaf, bipolar, schizophrenic, and it just takes extra time and effort... and I don't blame them. Could be a lot of reasons for the OP's and player's problem. I'd go with what Trei said, mentoring program. Outstanding idea. I don't personally think that a player needs knowledge of the rules, as long as they can describe or indicate what they want the character to do, and the DM translates that into game terms. If the system of choice can't do that well, it's too damn complicated.
#24 liquid150 Feb 14, 2009 13:27:15	I really like that buddy system method, Trei. That's a great idea.
#25 lordofthe9 Feb 15, 2009 11:23:05	I'm not saying your friend has this problem, but at one time I played with a friend that was semi illiterate, and was on a 2nd grade math level. He loved to play, but he did almost the same things you're describing. He played it off as just learning and possible disinterest at first, but he eventually let us know the problem. We worked with him, and one of the other players helped him on dice rolls, and ability usage, etc. Eventually he was able to bring his reading and math skills up to a level that he didn't need help. He wasn't dumb, but he had a hard time with motivation at school because it wasn't fun. D&D made reading and math fun (even on a basic level), which helped him a lot. Another time we had a similar player (only a few years ago) that did this, and we thought we had another Kevin (name of the first player). Turns out that this player was just being lazy, and thought it was funny to slow everything down and frustrate people. He wasn't invited for very long.
#26 Alter_Boy Feb 15, 2009 13:12:20	Just to ask: if he is a Lurker personality? Perhaps he plays D&D to be with friends, or just to hang out with people in general. Maybe he has less motivation to learn the rules because he's focused on the social aspect of the game.
#27 darossgator Feb 18, 2009 18:16:02	Question: Does the player remember story elements, too? Or is -everything- a blur? Since there has been a lot of good advice given, I'll just commiserate. I've had several players who took MONTHS to learn what dice is what. For experienced gamers it seems second nature, but it's pretty alien to people who have never seen the term "Roll 3D6" let alone dice that have a number of sides other than 6. I am GMing a group with a person who many of us suspect has aspergers syndrome (a very mild form of autism. I know this is a huge accusation but it comes from knowing him for a decade and hanging out with him multiple times a week). This guy has played for 10 years, and has played in different systems. He can remember dice rolls but has a difficult time with the more abstract. He'll not recognize the difference between an accurate and painted Goliath miniature and an accurate and painted kobold miniature. I commend you on your group patience with that particular player. It can be really trying at times. As for if he has ADHD... Well, I have 2 players diagnosed with ADD and one with ADHD (let's face it, it seems anyone born after 1980 has been diagnosed with ADD). They can focus and they can remember if they want to. It just means that they talk a lot and you have to make sure your descriptions are brief and concise.
#28 Kerrus Feb 18, 2009 22:40:49	As someone who has Aspergers, I can tell you that it's not as big an impediment as some people think, but it still contributes in certain ways. While there are severely bad cases of aspergers, the main difficulty that we all suffer for is that we tend to take things at face value. If the DM tells us, frankly, that there's no way we can take a given prestige class, then later on drops that prestige class on us and insinuates that we should have roleplayed preparing to take that class, we're going to get mighty angry. A more basic point- people with Aspergers like things to 'make sense' Now, usually this means they can take something like DnD as a body of rules and say "Okay, as written this is my baseline, and it 'makes sense'" Thus, when they inexplicable survive something, perhaps due to DM intervention, it may confuse them because that doesn't fit into their gaming paradigm. Now, depending on the scale of aspergers, they might try to figure out how the 'does not make sense' thing happened in the first place- they'll clam up and go over it in their heads until they figure out, decide to let it go (only people with milder cases of AS) or someone forcibly interrupts them, which can lead to problems in of itself. Trying to make sense of an improbability once got me fired from work, to put a personal spin on it. While it's something that experience teaches you ways of dealing with. Moreover, if he's undiagnosed- and doesn't know he has Aspergers, then he probably, like I was, doesn't have any idea what's going on. He might have a vague sense that there's something he doesn't like, but believe me, once it's illustrated just what (might be) is going on, it's like turning a light on. Because, for someone with AS, you've just added a new set of rules to the way they interpret the universe- and now they can make sense of the part of themselves that doesn't make sense.[/rant]
#29 SYB Feb 19, 2009 14:35:56	I see one of two answers here. 1) He is mentally challenged in some way or another. I'll avoid trying to define what way, but if this is true, he needs help that you can't readily provide. 2) He is being a jerk. Whether he simply likes messing with you or whether he is disinterested in the game and is trying to express that disinterest indirectly, he actually understands the rules, but is faking it. If this is true, find a new player and wish him well in his life endeavors (that will no longer include your game). -SYB
#30 pyro_azer Feb 19, 2009 19:23:16	I see one of two answers here. 1) He is mentally challenged in some way or another. I'll avoid trying to define what way, but if this is true, he needs help that you can't readily provide. 2) He is being a jerk. Whether he simply likes messing with you or whether he is disinterested in the game and is trying to express that disinterest indirectly, he actually understands the rules, but is faking it. If this is true, find a new player and wish him well in his life endeavors (that will no longer include your game). -SYB Not neccesarely. If the group is not making accomadations for him to learn the rules things can get hectic. I know in my group do a bunch of things that would throw off new players such as play late at night in not so well lit rooms, talk quickly, are impatiant, abbreviate things (my group will talk like the forums abbreviate such as phb, dmg etc.), and through random jokes, oc comments or off topic comments in the middle of an rp conversation. If the op's group plays like this it will take longer for players to learn the rules.
#31 deneb Mar 13, 2009 21:06:48	I duno if this will help. but I have a bit of a pattern that i do for almost every newbie that I DM for. note: I play 3.x and not 4 Pregame: spend time talking with the player trying to find out what type of character they want to play. Create either a Fighter, Rogue, or if they must play a caster a Sorcerer. Explain what in general terms what the Character is good at. I then make 2 identicle character sheets. (one for them one for me) Game 1: I explain which dice are which. For the game I have only one rule. Tell me what you want to do and I'll tell you what dice to roll. As i have a copy of their char sheet, I have all the nessary mods. Game 2: they now should be fairly familier with which dice are which. explain that "attack" and "skill" rolls are done with a d20. attempt to get them to roll a d20 when making an attack or a skill check w/o being told what dice. Game 3: teach them the consept of attack and skill modifiers. show them where each piece of information they need is at. (very important that all the modifiers are precalculated and writen down on their sheet) So on and so forth. Teach single parts at a time and let them ignore the rest of the mechanics. Once they have a single idea down THEN you can move on to another idea. I've found that teaching the game this way tends to run just a bit slower on average. but for the people who suffer information overload (like it sounds the OP's player is having) it realy helps them learn the game. Also, it sounds like he has been trained to not think. especialy when asking about "is the the d20." for questons like that i usualy respond with "Well,how many sides does a D20 have? Does that have 20 sides? Which one has 20 sides?" Once you are sure that he has been given the information start making him tell you stuff. ask LOTS of "babystep" questions. "where is your str located? next to that is your mod, what is your mod? you rolled a 6 and have a mod of +2, so how much dmg did you do?" hope i didnt complely lose you :D
#32 holy_beholder Mar 13, 2009 22:53:40	I would probably use the buddy system. However, sometimes you just have to make allowances. I have dealt with an issue similar to yours. I was playing Fudge, which has a core mechanic of a trait ladder(-4 to +4 for skills, attributes, difficulties), and uses dice with an equal number of minus sides, plus sides, and blank sides. This usually means d6 dice, but I would totally snap up d24 fudge dice(+ - blank dice) if I had the opportunity. At this time, I had no fudge dice. So it was 1-2 is -1, 3-4 is 0 and 5-6 is +1. This worked fine for everybody, except one player. He memorized the trait ladder, can usually pick skills quickly even when I don't use a list(skills are just checked against the GM, if the GM decides that a skill is too broad, stupid, or likely to cause problems it's banned), and can play the game. He doesn't even suggest stupid plans, and in my group that means something. "Crawl through the speaker tubes". Really. In any case, he simply could not catch on to the 1-2 is -1, 3-4 is 0, etc. thing. He got everything else, but for some reason the die mechanic simply didn't work for him. So I decided to break down, and buy some fudge dice already. They were expensive for six siders, at about 12 dollars for a pack of 20, but they were awesome, I had been trying to convince myself to buy them anyways, and every fudge die I have has probably seen 30+ hours of use, as a whole they have probably seen 50+, and those numbers keep going up. They sped things up a little for everybody, and it worked perfectly for the one player. Suddenly he could play the game properly. Plus it made it easier to explain to new players, most of my players are young, the player who didn't understand the dice was 10 at the time, I've explained the games to 6 year olds, and I'm certain that not having substitute dice simplified things. The point is, sometimes you just have to take a method that kind of sucks, and get it over with.
#33 m4kitsu Mar 17, 2009 17:33:44	Don't assume any malice or mental issues on part of the player having trouble. Sometimes they simply don't "get" how the sometimes-peculiar math of this game works. I had a player who, despite having actually been in the hobby longer than I have, routinely forgot what bonuses to add to which roles, which dice were for what -basically the same problem the OP's player is having. I knew it wasn't a question of commitment to the game or interest in it -she was the first to arrive, the last to leave, and by far the most involved in the campaign, and clearly loved the hobby. I did some digging -pulled the player aside and asked some probing questions- and discovered that her first group and DM had taken a (sadly not uncommon) stance of, 'well, girls don't understand this game anyway, so we'll humor her and baby her along.' Simply put, she had never been given the opportunity or need to really learn the rules, despite having played for a few years already. I sat her down outside of the game (free time between classes proved most useful for this) and asked her if she knew what the problem was, and while she was aware on some level that she didn't really know the rules, experience with her previous group has instilled in her a sense of complacency with that. I asked her -for her own benefit- to take a couple of nights before the next game to really sit down and read the combat chapter of the book, and to call with any questions or clarifications. This at the time being the middling days of 3.0, the chapter on combat was a mess, and she had enough questions to run my phone out of batteries twice, but simply taking the time to read through the book in a manner she never had before helped immensely and immediately. She still had some questions by the next game, but far fewer -she knew what dice were what, and generally what bonuses went to where, although thanks for the alphabet soup that 3.X sometimes was, occasionally forgot one. However, by the dawn of 3.5, she was one of my better players, and led our group's charge into 4e, even so far as to custom build the group a wonderful set of character and power cards that FAR exceeded the official sheet in terms of readability and ease of use. The key was patience and gaining and understanding of what she needed to learn, as well as why she hadn't learned it. Once I had figured those out, correcting the problem became almost trivial.
#34 swashbuckler Mar 20, 2009 12:34:20	To the OP: Some people get really overwhelmed with the rules of D&D. THey take one look at the library of "rule books" and suffer brain melt. Particuarilly, if they are noobs and joining a group of more experienced players. Don't expect them them to know everything, be patient. I am saying this knowing that this has been a problem for some time with this particular player. Suggestions: There are a lot of great advice already posted here, take what you need from these cornells of wisdom. To these let me add a few of my own experience with helping newbies. 1) Different colored dice. Great idea. However, some players, espescially newbies like thier own set of dice and possibly only have one set of the same color. Something that helped in this reguard whem my daughter started playing with us at kindergarden age (not suggesting your player is younger or mentally slower, btw, just an example) she wanted her own set of dice, cute pink ones. But it took a long time for her to learn which one was which. How we countered this: We made her a little cardboard box divided so that there was one tiny box for each die. We labled the die, called it her tool box because it looked like a tool box for each size of die, like a box for wrenches of different sizes. When we said, roll a D20, she could pick out the die in the D20 slot. IF she needed multiple dice, we would lend her enough dice from our staches once she picked out the correct die. Though, she soon began complainign that other people's dice did not like her and she resorted to rolling her own dice several times. As we were encouraging math skills in our 5 year old, we took the time for her to write down the numbers of each roll and then add them up. Anyone with math skill issues, dyslexia, like me D&D is a fun way to get basic math experience, and for parents teachign reading and math to little ones, it is sooooo much more fun than homework, for everyone. 2) It sounds like this is a mostly mechanical problem, your player seems to know what he wants to do in game. He just hasn't wrapped his mind around the rules mechanics of the game. Lets face it, if we all step back for a minute, the rules of this game are a lot to digest. None of us ever started playing this game because we wanted to master the mechanics of adjustments and die rolls. We started because we wanted to do fantastically cool things in an imaginary game world. For this reason, I think your player, as you said, wants to play the game. He just doesn't know how to make his character do what he wants to do mechanically. He also, may not have the time to do a lot of out of game reading to catch up mechanically. (I don't know) Again, the only thing is to be patient. 3) One thing I have always championed with noobs is to sit down with them as a DM and let them make thier character. Make a first level character for a first level campaign. Take a whole evening to make his character. Show him the dice, have him read the overveiw of classes, let him choose the class he wants. (Someone else suggested playing a fighter or rogue for the first character, good suggestion easy class to get mechanically into the game with..., but the down side is that letting them make the character of thier own choosing is the best motivator for them to learn.) Also, let them know that as a noob, they dont need to learn the whole game. THey only have to start learning thier own character. This dramatically scales back the OMG there is a library of rules here mentality that can shock some people. There are times when I look at the bookcases filled with the books I have collected over nearly 30 years and my mind boggles. Imagine what a stack of just PHB, DMG, and MM look to someone who is new to the game. I guess what I am trying to say is ~Simplify~ the scope of the game for the noob. 3a) Always let the noob make his character first, for the first campaign. Vetran players are more than capable of filling up the ranks of a party make up even if the noob wants to play a wizard (not recomended, but the noob gets to choose) or what have you. 3b) Personal rule, no matter how key to a party's make up the noob's character choice is, no vet gets to play that character class. Because if a vet and a noob are playing the same class, guess who is goign to do more with that class. Makes the noob feel horrible, don't do it. If vets whine, challenge them, this is a great oppertunity for them to teach skills to a noob and if they are such great players, they do not need class X played by class X master player to have success. (I am really lucky with my group as they really help out, but not every DM is so lucky.) 4) Teaching is not just the DM's job! The DM should be the primary teacher, but everyone at the table has a vested intrest in helping, teaching, and encouraging every noob that sits down with them. Lets face it, players have a lot more time out of game to help another player than the DM does. But in game, buddy system is the key to absorbing the game. 4a) As a DM out of game, encourage the other players to ask the noob for suggestions. This puts them into the game, not just wiating for thier turn. It makes them feel part of the team. This is important, because if one feels like they are on the fringes of the party, they are less likely to become engaged in the game anyway. Because, well, "I'm the newbie, these guys all know the rules and best stratedgies, I'll just sit here and wait for orders" mentality can set in. Remind the vets that it is the responsibility of everyone to make it fun for everyone else, this is afterall, a team sport, even for the rookie. 5) I don't know that this is an issue, but some players, espescially noobs are shy. They feel like they are a fringe element. Excited vetran players knowing just how to handle situation X, can leave them feeling like they just don't get it. THis makes them grow more shy. As a DM, tailor a few things for the noobs particular character. Put the spotlight on the noob a bit. Not too much, but once a session or so, let thier character shine. Allow the vets to offer suggestions, but not until the noob has had a chance to engage the gray cells a bit. (I found that if the evening starts out with something fun for a noob character, they are more into the rest of the session). 6) Talk to the noob. Make sure after every session with a noob that they understand what went on. IF they have questions, let them know it is ok to ask. The only way they will ever get the concept of how to jump over the pit is for them to be able to ask. Some questions are fine in session, but for complicated questions, you may tell them to make a note and ask after teh session. You can do this as easy as taking 5-15 minutes after the game breaks up to sit down with the noob. Or let them think of things and email it to you (at least, at best to you and all the rest of the players) during the week. Sometimes noobs ask questions that are quite remarkable and enlightening for even graybeard vets. Sometiems we take things for granted, noobs can keep us all honest and learning. 7) Explain the character sheet. I found that sometimes different highlighter colors for frequently needed sections of the sheet are nice for all players, but particuarily noobs. 8) Explain the two most important rules of the game: RULE ONE: EVEYONE HAS FUN! RULE TWO: ONLY RULE ONE IS SCRIBED IN STONE, the rest are all guidelines; libraries of guidelines and suggestions, but it is a game of imagination. No rule will ever cover everything entirely. Have fun. Personal note, my daughter started playing seriously when she was in kidergarden. She is now 13, and she is my most viscious player. She is reckless and carefree, drives her overly cautious and strategical genius uncle insane sometimes. This is a good thing. ~Swash~

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

dalkin0

Feb 11, 2009 23:15:26

Hey all... I just finished registering so this is my first post! Yay for me.

So! Long story short... I am a DM. And I have this campaign going on. And for the most part its good. Its just me and 2 others on a biweekly game night kind of thing... But I have a problem with one of my players.

He doesn't remeber anything. We've been playing for several months now and I thought by now he'd remeber something but...

I mean, everything is an issue. He never remebers what dice he has to roll to make an attack, and always forgets to add his modifiers. He doesn't know where his HP box is and how many healing surges he has (nevermind that its written down for him), has no idea which die he has to roll for damage (Its a d10) and he asks these things every. single. combat. round. Every round. I kid you not. It goes like this (remeber, litteraly every round, no word of a lie):

"Ok Dragonis, what do you do?"

"Um... I attack."

"Please roll."

"Uh... which dice is it?"

"Its the d20."

"Is it this one?" *holds up the d6*

"No. the d20 is that one there."

*rolls* "I got a 13."

"Okay, then you miss... wait, did you add your strength mod?"

"Strength mod?"

"Yes. Did you?"

"I don't know."

*sigh* "In that case, you got a 16" (his strength mod is 3) so you hit. roll for damage.

"how do i do that?"

"Roll the d8"

*rolls the d20* "I got 17.

"Well no. the d8 is that one there" *points to the d8

"Ohh... Ok." *rolls* "crap, I got one."

"did you add your strength mod?"

"no. Whats strength mod again?"

*points to character sheet* "right there. what is it?"

"It says 1" (reading his ratial modifier)

"What does it say in the bubble?"

"Oh. it says 3."

"Okay, you do 4 damage."

Repeat this every single combat round. Now, hes a nice guy, and I thought he wasn't paying attention simply because he doesn't like the game... But hes my most eager player, and assured me he loves d&d. The problem most likely lays in the fact that hes a new player and hasn't had much hands on time, but at the same time I'd like for him to at least remember how to roll attack and damage to speed things up. And you might think I've not explained things to him well, but thats quite the opposite. I've told him many times over that to attack someone you roll to see if you hit with the d20 and if you hit then you roll damage... I just dont know how else to tell him now.

Also, its hindering gameplay a bit... I've thrown at my group only minions for the first dungeon (though, they ended up fighting 6 at a time and almost lost), but... my group is in the habit of useing only basic melee attacks which makes for bland encounters... Im trying to remedy this somewhat by throwing some unique enemies at them (last session i threw in a few Skulk (sp?) Zombies from open grave. The wall climbing thing worked pretty good...) so we can get my group of n00bs thinking outside of smashing things endlessly with their weapons. In the mean time, is there anything I can do to get my poor friend to remeber how to play the game...?

ciaran

Feb 11, 2009 23:21:58

After several months he should have the concept of using a d20 to determine the outcome of an action. I'd start holding back the constant reminders. You might be enabling him. Make him think about it. If he can't or won't then move on. Its tough love but you deserve to have fun too.

navar100

Feb 11, 2009 23:45:47

Purposely being cynical, but ...

Have you thought the player might be doing this on purpose, for whatever reason?

Keiichi_m

Feb 12, 2009 1:50:21

I had an issue (not as severe as this one) like this with my girlfriend, I worked it on a reward scale; the more she learned the more naked I got. She now knows almost all of the rules for her character, unfortunantly I somehow don't see that working in this case.

Tough love, or talk to him about it. Tell him he really needs to start paying more attention and put a little more effort into the game, you spend several hours putting the adventure together and learning most of the rules to run the game, the least he can do is learn his dice.

brashnir

Feb 12, 2009 2:11:53

Have him run the monsters for a combat while you run his character. This will force him to make a bunch of attack rolls and keep track of HPs, and will also allow you to show him of his character's better abilities.

edit - since you said minions, I assume this is 4E. after making him run the monsters for an encounter, give his character back. Make sure he has power cards printed out for his abilities. Set them in front of him, with bonuses pre-calculated and make him pick one each time he says, "I attack."

kouk

Feb 12, 2009 2:47:56

Yeah, precalculated power cards, and color-coded dice.

And have him read the book.

caradrius

Feb 12, 2009 3:45:38

If you have been playing for more than a few sessions, seriously, he should know at the least the general idea of how to kill stuff. maybe D&D isn't his game?

m-bark

Feb 12, 2009 5:29:45

Don't worry all too much about it. An enthusiastic player does not necessarily have to be one to pick things up quickly. He doesn't sound like the brightest lamp in the courtyard but at least he wants to try.

Kouk's advice sounds like a thing to try.

DevoDog

Feb 12, 2009 8:28:32

Yeah, precalculated power cards, and color-coded dice.

I would definitely agree with different colored dice (something so simple that many of us would never even think of it....although I thought of it just before I scrolled and saw this post).

It sounds like, to me, the player is going into shutdown mode by being overwhelmed......OR the player is doing this intentionally....OR the player has some serious cognitive issues (either an actual disability, stress, or the player is "on" something when they game with you).

If it's the first issue....use power cards and different colored dice.

If it's the third issue....use power cards, different colored dice and LOADS of patience (depending on the reason for the cognitive issues).

If it's the second issue...you'll have to decide how you want to deal with it.

#10

m-bark

Feb 12, 2009 8:38:53

Also, I think a big problem is going to be the skill point system as well. You may want to consider using a skill system similar to the one in the Star Wars RPG for simplicity, so that he won't bump his head as many times.

It simply goes like this: you get a number of skills you are trained in, and get a +5 bonus to that skill. You get a bonus to all skills equal to half your character level, and of course the bonus from a high ability score. That's it. No messing around with teensy tiny skill points.

I know for one my fellow players had trouble with that, and sometimes still do. This system is just easier.

#11

azrael_the_dark

Feb 12, 2009 8:55:22

Also, I think a big problem is going to be the skill point system as well. You may want to consider using a skill system similar to the one in the Star Wars RPG for simplicity, so that he won't bump his head as many times.

It simply goes like this: you get a number of skills you are trained in, and get a +5 bonus to that skill. You get a bonus to all skills equal to half your character level, and of course the bonus from a high ability score. That's it. No messing around with teensy tiny skill points.

I know for one my fellow players had trouble with that, and sometimes still do. This system is just easier.

Well, OP said "minions". Minions, that should mean to us that he's playing 4E.
So, the skills system is already as you described.

#12

ritreaude

Feb 12, 2009 9:49:39

might i suggest him buying Dungeons and Dragons for Dummies, its a little more approachable than the players handbook for some newbies.

#13

Krusk

Feb 12, 2009 13:48:53

I had an issue (not as severe as this one) like this with my girlfriend, I worked it on a reward scale; the more she learned the more naked I got. She now knows almost all of the rules for her character, unfortunantly I somehow don't see that working in this case.

Before we throw out a great idea like this, what if we just make a couple of changes. You start naked, and everytime the correct die is used, you get less so. I can see my players figuring out how to play real fast.

You could consider cutting back on the combats per session and doing more of the in town talks with NPCs and the like.

Did the player make their own character or did you give a prewritten one? I find that if you prewrite it, they don't follow where the numbers are or where they are added, but if they write it they at least know "This is my attack mod, I don't know where to add it, but I know where to find it".

As for which die is the d20 and which is the d8, explain that you can count the sides to figure it out. One has 20, and one has 8.

#14

Kerrus

Feb 12, 2009 14:15:36

Yeah, I'd suggest running him through some simple math drills to figure out just where his disconnect is. If he has no problem with the math, then he shouldn't have a problem with the rules if you maybe take some time aside and drill him on it, rather then expecting him to be able to do it in the midst of combat.

Simple stuff like 1 + 1, 2 + 2, and what does this (%) symbol mean. Not to demean or anything, but to see if this is a more serious problem then being unable to remember anything.

Something extending that which you could do is test him on the character sheet. Run him through how it works, and try and explain that in general the character sheet will tell him what he needs to know- but he needs to be able to put it together.

Then take the sheet away and ask him some basic questions. Work from smaller questions to bigger questions.

ie:

1. Where on my sheet is my strength modifier?

2. What is my strength modifier if my strength is (insert number)

3. Where on the sheet is my Base Attack Bonus?

4. If I want to attack an enemy with a melee weapon, what are the bonuses I need to apply? (Strength mod, BAB, weapon enhancements, feats)

Run him through that sort of course a couple times. At the begining of each session ask run him through it. Then, after a couple of sessions of it, change the questions.

Now, if he doesn't improve then there's definitely a serious cognitive issue going on, and you're going to need cue cards or something.

#15

trei

Feb 12, 2009 17:00:47

In my group we are regularly getting new members and phasing out the old, and we currently have a couple problematic ones much like the player you described. But we developed a system and it is working so far.

First step is, we ran through an example encounter before the night's game got started, as a reminder. Next step, we had a veteran buddy up with a new player, to "coach" them, as it were. Thirdly, and most importantly, we were patient.

We always allowed calculators at the table, of course, and encouraged the new players to write notes and pre-calculated values on their sheets. This system worked VERY well for one, but the other still has a difficult time remembering which dice to use when, and what things to add.

So when the player failed to adapt to our pace, the DM simply adapted to her! Instead of saying "roll a balance check," he'd say "Roll a d20 and add your balance skill bonus for me. So it takes another half second to say the sentence -- but at least she's not slowed down 5 minutes every time she takes a turn!

The buddy also adapted. Right before her turn, he would be whispering to her, saying "Roll the d20 and add THIS when you attack. If you hit, roll a d6 and add THIS for damage."

It's working. Slowly.

The problem with giving people time limits is that it would intimidate her, and she started holding action every turn while she stared in horror at all the numbers on her sheet. So I wouldn't reccommend that, unless it is a last, last, LAST resort measure.

#16

steelworker

Feb 13, 2009 0:25:13

Something else that might be a problem is the 4E character sheet. The official sheet is cluttered and a bit imposing when you're searching for quick info. There isn't a good space for writing your basic attacks in either.

I'm going to be starting a 4E campaign next week for mostly new players (my family). None of us have played 4E before. I decided to put some work into a "cheat sheet", to make the first few sessions run a bit smoother. I'm going to make them fill a character sheet out, but also provide them a Combat handout that they can fill in.

Handout

Name:
HP:
Bloodied:
Healing Surge/day:
(space for doing Hit point math)

Taking your turn:
Every turn you can take one of each of these actions.
Standard action: swinging a weapon, using a power
Move action: walking your speed, climbing a rope
Minor action: grabbing something out of your belt pouch

How to roll Attacks:
For a melee attack you add: 1/2 your level + STR + other bonuses + 20 sided
My basic melee attack is: 1d20 +
For a ranged attack you add: 1/2 your level + DEX + other bonuses + 20 sided
My basic ranged attack is: 1d20 +

My Class abilities:
(space for scribbling down abilites)

#17

m-bark

Feb 13, 2009 3:42:06

Well, OP said "minions". Minions, that should mean to us that he's playing 4E.
So, the skills system is already as you described.

Right, never mind then.

#18

mycroftb

Feb 13, 2009 9:49:18

Seconding the call for color-coded dice, power cards, and a simplified character sheet.

There's no excuse for any player to fall back on a basic attack all the time, unless they do so because they don't understand the power system.

It really sounds like the players could use a back-to-square-one tutorial session. Start simple and slow. Most seem to already have the basic attack down. Move on to explaining and demonstrating an at-will attack power. Then demonstrate encounter and daily powers. Then opportunity attacks, second wind, flanking and other combat advantage, skills, and so on. For each situation, don't just tell, show - set up an instance on the battle mat where they use what they're learning. Then, after a bit more reinforcing, have an obstacle course at the end.

If you want a cliche story reason, have some kids approach the characters on the street and be wide-eyed and full of awe at seeing some OMG real live adventurers! The kids ask the PCs to show off some of their cool adventuring movies, and slip into tutorial mode. Let them know that they can roleplay the kids asking questions of their characters, and reward them if they "ask a question" and demonstrate something you haven't tutorial'd yet. At the end of it all, once you're sure they've got a good grip on things, then, oh no! A *real* fight breaks out, and one or more of the kids is in danger! Can our heroes save them unaided? ... Yeah, as I said, really cliche, but sometimes cliche works.

#19

Man_in_the_Funny_Hat

Feb 13, 2009 11:35:23

Good suggestions, but don't forget Item #19 of my D&D manifesto:

Players must learn the rules. Nobody needs to pass a rules knowledge test or memorize it all - not even the DM. But it's more than reasonable to expect that players read the entire Players Handbook and be able to understand it. Anyone new to the game needs to accept that they will need to do a lot of reading and put some effort into learning the game, and there is a lot of information they need to absorb right from the start. The basics of the game can be taught in short order, perhaps an hour or at most one game session. After a few sessions of play they should NOT require having basics repeatedly explained. The more time you spend playing the game as a new player the more you should be reading the rules, RE-reading the rules, and paying attention to the application of the rules to other players and their characters, not just your own. Players who can't be bothered to read and understand spells that their character casts, general combat rules, and the workings of the skill system should only be given so much leeway before a DM asks them to leave. Only if the DM informs players up front that the rules DON'T MATTER, or the player actually has learning disabilities is anyone excused from achieving a general, functional knowledge of the game.

#20

chaosturtle

Feb 13, 2009 16:29:44

Maybe try and get together with him more then every other week and run a few small things if your schedules allow for it.

#21

ciaran

Feb 13, 2009 19:20:28

Maybe he doesn't mind being told again and again. Its a guess but maybe its just easier for him to not bother understanding. Different people respond to different stimulus. You'll have to experiment. Regardless, don't just tell him like you have been doing. Maybe ask him a couple of "Where on your sheet is..." type of qustions before the session starts. When he looks at the sheet blankly, tell him he needs to actually read what the words say.

#22

EricaG

Feb 13, 2009 20:35:33

HI. I had very similar problems when i added a friend with learning disabilities (adhd and dyslexia). To help her learn the dice i put the highest number facing up at the beginning of the game and when i say "you roll a d20 to attack" and she can see there is only one with a 20, and set it back face up after rolling. We also made sure the commonly used info like attack and saves had all modifiers added in already. She keeps track of hp and limited use things with small post-it notes on her sheet. We have a calculator for her, and ask her every time to look at her sheet before we point out where something is, and then she still has to read it to us. After all that, we still have to help her remember some detail or another most rounds, but she's getting better all the time. another DM task, teacher.

#23

etarnon

Feb 14, 2009 7:07:11

Trei, Bravo to you and your group. A win for openness.

I've played with people that were blind, partially deaf, bipolar, schizophrenic, and it just takes extra time and effort... and I don't blame them.

Could be a lot of reasons for the OP's and player's problem. I'd go with what Trei said, mentoring program. Outstanding idea.

I don't personally think that a player needs knowledge of the rules, as long as they can describe or indicate what they want the character to do, and the DM translates that into game terms.

If the system of choice can't do that well, it's too damn complicated.

#24

liquid150

Feb 14, 2009 13:27:15

I really like that buddy system method, Trei. That's a great idea.

#25

lordofthe9

Feb 15, 2009 11:23:05

I'm not saying your friend has this problem, but at one time I played with a friend that was semi illiterate, and was on a 2nd grade math level. He loved to play, but he did almost the same things you're describing. He played it off as just learning and possible disinterest at first, but he eventually let us know the problem. We worked with him, and one of the other players helped him on dice rolls, and ability usage, etc.

Eventually he was able to bring his reading and math skills up to a level that he didn't need help. He wasn't dumb, but he had a hard time with motivation at school because it wasn't fun. D&D made reading and math fun (even on a basic level), which helped him a lot.

Another time we had a similar player (only a few years ago) that did this, and we thought we had another Kevin (name of the first player). Turns out that this player was just being lazy, and thought it was funny to slow everything down and frustrate people. He wasn't invited for very long.

#26

Alter_Boy

Feb 15, 2009 13:12:20

Just to ask: if he is a Lurker personality? Perhaps he plays D&D to be with friends, or just to hang out with people in general. Maybe he has less motivation to learn the rules because he's focused on the social aspect of the game.

#27

darossgator

Feb 18, 2009 18:16:02

Question: Does the player remember story elements, too? Or is -everything- a blur?

Since there has been a lot of good advice given, I'll just commiserate. I've had several players who took MONTHS to learn what dice is what. For experienced gamers it seems second nature, but it's pretty alien to people who have never seen the term "Roll 3D6" let alone dice that have a number of sides other than 6.

I am GMing a group with a person who many of us suspect has aspergers syndrome (a very mild form of autism. I know this is a huge accusation but it comes from knowing him for a decade and hanging out with him multiple times a week). This guy has played for 10 years, and has played in different systems. He can remember dice rolls but has a difficult time with the more abstract. He'll not recognize the difference between an accurate and painted Goliath miniature and an accurate and painted kobold miniature. I commend you on your group patience with that particular player. It can be really trying at times. As for if he has ADHD... Well, I have 2 players diagnosed with ADD and one with ADHD (let's face it, it seems anyone born after 1980 has been diagnosed with ADD). They can focus and they *can* remember if they want to. It just means that they talk a lot and you have to make sure your descriptions are brief and concise.

#28

Kerrus

Feb 18, 2009 22:40:49

As someone who has Aspergers, I can tell you that it's not as big an impediment as some people think, but it still contributes in certain ways. While there are severely bad cases of aspergers, the main difficulty that we all suffer for is that we tend to take things at face value.

If the DM tells us, frankly, that there's no way we can take a given prestige class, then later on drops that prestige class on us and insinuates that we should have roleplayed preparing to take that class, we're going to get mighty angry.

A more basic point- people with Aspergers like things to 'make sense'

Now, usually this means they can take something like DnD as a body of rules and say "Okay, as written this is my baseline, and it 'makes sense'"

Thus, when they inexplicable survive something, perhaps due to DM intervention, it may confuse them because that doesn't fit into their gaming paradigm. Now, depending on the scale of aspergers, they might try to figure out how the 'does not make sense' thing happened in the first place- they'll clam up and go over it in their heads until they figure out, decide to let it go (only people with milder cases of AS) or someone forcibly interrupts them, which can lead to problems in of itself.

Trying to make sense of an improbability once got me fired from work, to put a personal spin on it. While it's something that experience teaches you ways of dealing with.

Moreover, if he's undiagnosed- and doesn't know he has Aspergers, then he probably, like I was, doesn't have any idea what's going on. He might have a vague sense that there's something he doesn't like, but believe me, once it's illustrated just what (might be) is going on, it's like turning a light on.

Because, for someone with AS, you've just added a new set of rules to the way they interpret the universe- and now they can make sense of the part of themselves that doesn't make sense.[/rant]

#29

SYB

Feb 19, 2009 14:35:56

I see one of two answers here.

1) He is mentally challenged in some way or another. I'll avoid trying to define what way, but if this is true, he needs help that you can't readily provide.

2) He is being a jerk. Whether he simply likes messing with you or whether he is disinterested in the game and is trying to express that disinterest indirectly, he actually understands the rules, but is faking it. If this is true, find a new player and wish him well in his life endeavors (that will no longer include your game).

-SYB

#30

pyro_azer

Feb 19, 2009 19:23:16

I see one of two answers here.

1) He is mentally challenged in some way or another. I'll avoid trying to define what way, but if this is true, he needs help that you can't readily provide.

2) He is being a jerk. Whether he simply likes messing with you or whether he is disinterested in the game and is trying to express that disinterest indirectly, he actually understands the rules, but is faking it. If this is true, find a new player and wish him well in his life endeavors (that will no longer include your game).

-SYB

Not neccesarely. If the group is not making accomadations for him to learn the rules things can get hectic. I know in my group do a bunch of things that would throw off new players such as play late at night in not so well lit rooms, talk quickly, are impatiant, abbreviate things (my group will talk like the forums abbreviate such as phb, dmg etc.), and through random jokes, oc comments or off topic comments in the middle of an rp conversation. If the op's group plays like this it will take longer for players to learn the rules.

#31

deneb

Mar 13, 2009 21:06:48

I duno if this will help. but I have a bit of a pattern that i do for almost every newbie that I DM for.
*note: I play 3.x and not 4*

Pregame: spend time talking with the player trying to find out what type of character they want to play. Create either a Fighter, Rogue, or if they must play a caster a Sorcerer. Explain what in general terms what the Character is good at. I then make 2 identicle character sheets. (one for them one for me)

Game 1: I explain which dice are which. For the game I have only one rule. Tell me what you want to do and I'll tell you what dice to roll. As i have a copy of their char sheet, I have all the nessary mods.

Game 2: they now should be fairly familier with which dice are which. explain that "attack" and "skill" rolls are done with a d20. attempt to get them to roll a d20 when making an attack or a skill check w/o being told what dice.

Game 3: teach them the consept of attack and skill modifiers. show them where each piece of information they need is at. (very important that all the modifiers are precalculated and writen down on their sheet)

So on and so forth. Teach single parts at a time and let them ignore the rest of the mechanics. Once they have a single idea down THEN you can move on to another idea. I've found that teaching the game this way tends to run just a bit slower on average. but for the people who suffer information overload (like it sounds the OP's player is having) it realy helps them learn the game.

Also, it sounds like he has been trained to *not* think. especialy when asking about "is the the d20." for questons like that i usualy respond with "Well,how many sides does a D20 have? Does that have 20 sides? Which one has 20 sides?" Once you are sure that he has been given the information start making him tell you stuff. ask LOTS of "babystep" questions. "where is your str located? next to that is your mod, what is your mod? you rolled a 6 and have a mod of +2, so how much dmg did you do?"

hope i didnt complely lose you :D

#32

holy_beholder

Mar 13, 2009 22:53:40

I would probably use the buddy system. However, sometimes you just have to make allowances. I have dealt with an issue similar to yours. I was playing Fudge, which has a core mechanic of a trait ladder(-4 to +4 for skills, attributes, difficulties), and uses dice with an equal number of minus sides, plus sides, and blank sides. This usually means d6 dice, but I would totally snap up d24 fudge dice(+ - blank dice) if I had the opportunity.

At this time, I had no fudge dice. So it was 1-2 is -1, 3-4 is 0 and 5-6 is +1. This worked fine for everybody, except one player. He memorized the trait ladder, can usually pick skills quickly even when I don't use a list(skills are just checked against the GM, if the GM decides that a skill is too broad, stupid, or likely to cause problems it's banned), and can play the game. He doesn't even suggest stupid plans, and in my group that means something. "Crawl through the speaker tubes". Really.

In any case, he simply could not catch on to the 1-2 is -1, 3-4 is 0, etc. thing. He got everything else, but for some reason the die mechanic simply didn't work for him. So I decided to break down, and buy some fudge dice already. They were expensive for six siders, at about 12 dollars for a pack of 20, but they were awesome, I had been trying to convince myself to buy them anyways, and every fudge die I have has probably seen 30+ hours of use, as a whole they have probably seen 50+, and those numbers keep going up. They sped things up a little for everybody, and it worked perfectly for the one player. Suddenly he could play the game properly. Plus it made it easier to explain to new players, most of my players are young, the player who didn't understand the dice was 10 at the time, I've explained the games to 6 year olds, and I'm certain that not having substitute dice simplified things.

The point is, sometimes you just have to take a method that kind of sucks, and get it over with.

#33

m4kitsu

Mar 17, 2009 17:33:44

Don't assume any malice or mental issues on part of the player having trouble. Sometimes they simply don't "get" how the sometimes-peculiar math of this game works.

I had a player who, despite having actually been in the hobby longer than I have, routinely forgot what bonuses to add to which roles, which dice were for what -basically the same problem the OP's player is having.

I knew it wasn't a question of commitment to the game or interest in it -she was the first to arrive, the last to leave, and by far the most involved in the campaign, and clearly loved the hobby.

I did some digging -pulled the player aside and asked some probing questions- and discovered that her first group and DM had taken a (sadly not uncommon) stance of, 'well, girls don't understand this game anyway, so we'll humor her and baby her along.'

Simply put, she had never been given the opportunity or need to really learn the rules, despite having played for a few years already. I sat her down outside of the game (free time between classes proved most useful for this) and asked her if she knew what the problem was, and while she was aware on some level that she didn't really know the rules, experience with her previous group has instilled in her a sense of complacency with that.

I asked her -for her own benefit- to take a couple of nights before the next game to really sit down and read the combat chapter of the book, and to call with any questions or clarifications. This at the time being the middling days of 3.0, the chapter on combat was a mess, and she had enough questions to run my phone out of batteries twice, but simply taking the time to read through the book in a manner she never had before helped immensely and immediately.

She still had some questions by the next game, but far fewer -she knew what dice were what, and generally what bonuses went to where, although thanks for the alphabet soup that 3.X sometimes was, occasionally forgot one.

However, by the dawn of 3.5, she was one of my better players, and led our group's charge into 4e, even so far as to custom build the group a wonderful set of character and power cards that FAR exceeded the official sheet in terms of readability and ease of use.

The key was patience and gaining and understanding of what she needed to learn, as well as why she hadn't learned it. Once I had figured those out, correcting the problem became almost trivial.

#34

swashbuckler

Mar 20, 2009 12:34:20

To the OP:

Some people get really overwhelmed with the rules of D&D. THey take one look at the library of "rule books" and suffer brain melt. Particuarilly, if they are noobs and joining a group of more experienced players. Don't expect them them to know everything, be patient. I am saying this knowing that this has been a problem for some time with this particular player.

Suggestions:

There are a lot of great advice already posted here, take what you need from these cornells of wisdom. To these let me add a few of my own experience with helping newbies.

1) Different colored dice. Great idea. However, some players, espescially newbies like thier own set of dice and possibly only have one set of the same color. Something that helped in this reguard whem my daughter started playing with us at kindergarden age (not suggesting your player is younger or mentally slower, btw, just an example) she wanted her own set of dice, cute pink ones. But it took a long time for her to learn which one was which. How we countered this: We made her a little cardboard box divided so that there was one tiny box for each die. We labled the die, called it her tool box because it looked like a tool box for each size of die, like a box for wrenches of different sizes. When we said, roll a D20, she could pick out the die in the D20 slot. IF she needed multiple dice, we would lend her enough dice from our staches once she picked out the correct die. Though, she soon began complainign that other people's dice did not like her and she resorted to rolling her own dice several times. As we were encouraging math skills in our 5 year old, we took the time for her to write down the numbers of each roll and then add them up. Anyone with math skill issues, dyslexia, like me D&D is a fun way to get basic math experience, and for parents teachign reading and math to little ones, it is sooooo much more fun than homework, for everyone.

2) It sounds like this is a mostly mechanical problem, your player seems to know what he wants to do in game. He just hasn't wrapped his mind around the rules mechanics of the game. Lets face it, if we all step back for a minute, the rules of this game are a lot to digest. None of us ever started playing this game because we wanted to master the mechanics of adjustments and die rolls. We started because we wanted to do fantastically cool things in an imaginary game world. For this reason, I think your player, as you said, wants to play the game. He just doesn't know how to make his character do what he wants to do mechanically. He also, may not have the time to do a lot of out of game reading to catch up mechanically. (I don't know) Again, the only thing is to be patient.

3) One thing I have always championed with noobs is to sit down with them as a DM and let them make thier character. Make a first level character for a first level campaign. Take a whole evening to make his character. Show him the dice, have him read the overveiw of classes, let him choose the class he wants. (Someone else suggested playing a fighter or rogue for the first character, good suggestion easy class to get mechanically into the game with..., but the down side is that letting them make the character of thier own choosing is the best motivator for them to learn.) Also, let them know that as a noob, they dont need to learn the whole game. THey only have to start learning thier own character. This dramatically scales back the OMG there is a library of rules here mentality that can shock some people. There are times when I look at the bookcases filled with the books I have collected over nearly 30 years and my mind boggles. Imagine what a stack of just PHB, DMG, and MM look to someone who is new to the game. I guess what I am trying to say is ~Simplify~ the scope of the game for the noob.

3a) Always let the noob make his character first, for the first campaign. Vetran players are more than capable of filling up the ranks of a party make up even if the noob wants to play a wizard (not recomended, but the noob gets to choose) or what have you.

3b) Personal rule, no matter how key to a party's make up the noob's character choice is, no vet gets to play that character class. Because if a vet and a noob are playing the same class, guess who is goign to do more with that class. Makes the noob feel horrible, don't do it. If vets whine, challenge them, this is a great oppertunity for them to teach skills to a noob and if they are such great players, they do not need class X played by class X master player to have success. (I am really lucky with my group as they really help out, but not every DM is so lucky.)

4) Teaching is not just the DM's job! The DM should be the primary teacher, but everyone at the table has a vested intrest in helping, teaching, and encouraging every noob that sits down with them. Lets face it, players have a lot more time out of game to help another player than the DM does. But in game, buddy system is the key to absorbing the game.

4a) As a DM out of game, encourage the other players to ask the noob for suggestions. This puts them into the game, not just wiating for thier turn. It makes them feel part of the team. This is important, because if one feels like they are on the fringes of the party, they are less likely to become engaged in the game anyway. Because, well, "I'm the newbie, these guys all know the rules and best stratedgies, I'll just sit here and wait for orders" mentality can set in. Remind the vets that it is the responsibility of everyone to make it fun for everyone else, this is afterall, a team sport, even for the rookie.

5) I don't know that this is an issue, but some players, espescially noobs are shy. They feel like they are a fringe element. Excited vetran players knowing just how to handle situation X, can leave them feeling like they just don't get it. THis makes them grow more shy. As a DM, tailor a few things for the noobs particular character. Put the spotlight on the noob a bit. Not too much, but once a session or so, let thier character shine. Allow the vets to offer suggestions, but not until the noob has had a chance to engage the gray cells a bit. (I found that if the evening starts out with something fun for a noob character, they are more into the rest of the session).

6) Talk to the noob. Make sure after every session with a noob that they understand what went on. IF they have questions, let them know it is ok to ask. The only way they will ever get the concept of how to jump over the pit is for them to be able to ask. Some questions are fine in session, but for complicated questions, you may tell them to make a note and ask after teh session. You can do this as easy as taking 5-15 minutes after the game breaks up to sit down with the noob. Or let them think of things and email it to you (at least, at best to you and all the rest of the players) during the week. Sometimes noobs ask questions that are quite remarkable and enlightening for even graybeard vets. Sometiems we take things for granted, noobs can keep us all honest and learning.

7) Explain the character sheet. I found that sometimes different highlighter colors for frequently needed sections of the sheet are nice for all players, but particuarily noobs.

8) Explain the two most important rules of the game:

RULE ONE: EVEYONE HAS FUN!

RULE TWO: ONLY RULE ONE IS SCRIBED IN STONE, the rest are all guidelines; libraries of guidelines and suggestions, but it is a game of imagination. No rule will ever cover everything entirely. Have fun.

Personal note, my daughter started playing seriously when she was in kidergarden. She is now 13, and she is my most viscious player. She is reckless and carefree, drives her overly cautious and strategical genius uncle insane sometimes. This is a good thing.

~Swash~