I am new to this forum, actually I don't know what it's about only that it's about Dungeons & Dragons, presumably. I have never played a real life role playing game of any kind, but I do enjoy the game "Baldur's Gate" greatly, which is based on a D&D rules.
Any way, I have got a question. I am currently playing through a computer game called Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn. In this game I am playing a Chaotic-Evil aligned berserker, who (other than being a formidable fighter) has got a high wisdom of 17 points, and an "average" intelligence of only 9 points (for that game, it's a rather poor score)
In the game I have come to a situation with which I don't know how to roleplay it.
It is as follows:
My character, Konrad, has recently played a large role in saving a small fortress from destruction by trolls. On my own I went inside, killed all the trolls and the troll leader. As a reward, the daughter of the previous lord of the fortress (who got killed during the siege) made me the new lord.
Being the new lord of the fortress also requires me to decide how certein things should be done. I am not sure about the following situation:
one of the new guardsmen has been caught red-handed while stealing a valuable necklace of a noblewoman. he has also confessed that he commited some minor thefts earlier, he stole some coins and a goblet, for instance.
WHAT does my character do?
1) Does he, after hearing the charges, immediately order the guard to be executed? It is the usual punishment for such a crime, and it might really help him in sowing fear in his underlings. He IS chaotic evil afterall, so he would enjoy watching executions and treating his underlings like dirt, right?
2) He also has got a high Wisdom. Does he ask the guard for his movites? If he asks him why he has stolen all these things, the guard tells him that his wife is mortally ill. The priests and clerics could not heal her, and a rather expensive antidote is the only thing that can save his wife's life. my character can easily afford this antidote, as he is rather rich.
3) IF he would have chosen to ask for the guards motives (because of his high wisdom?) what does he now decide to do? Does he still execute the guard? Does he offer to pay for the wife's antidote?
4) The guard can be handled in three different manners: execute him, fire him from the guardsmen, or warn him not to steal but keep him in service.
The wife can be handled in two different ways, either pay for her medicine or don't pay for her medicine.
These options can be mixed at will, i.e. you can tell the guard you'll pay for the medicine, but still have him executed for his crime.
5) Furthermore I would like some more insight from you guys how an Evil-aligned character with high wisdom should be roleplayed. To me, wisdom is quickly associated with people like ghandi and the likes. Not exactely evil. But on the other hand there ARE evil clerics, no? Someone once said that Evil, high Wisdom characters could appear to be highly instinctuitive, almost bestial/monsterous when others look at them. Like, such a person would not be an exellent swordsmen because he spent years and years learning complicated combat moves (high INT) but rather fighthing with deadly bestial instinct. That kind of appeals to me, but I'm not sure if it's the right way.
Please share your opinions and I hope this forum boards will be helpful :D
Bye bye
-TheRedDuke
i think it means you understand 'better' ways to be evil/cause evil than those with low wisdom (as well as ways to cause good). so the character has the choice of which he will prefer: causing good or causing evil intentionally (or intentionally causing rough;y equal amounts, sporting a true neutral nature).
so i would say: is your character more likely to shift towards neutral or more likely to stay evil?
towards neutral - cut the guy a little slack. fire him, maybe humiliate him a little, but don't kill him. (bonus points for being a chaotic act not in line with the established (and i'm supposing more LE) code)
stay evil - slaughter the bastard. don't execute in some boring fashion though - show some creativity!
(also, having high wis would make you more likely to know/understand his motives, but i'm not sure how the game handles this, having never played any dnd games (only pen and paper!). so if asking for the motives is the only way of knowing them, then go ahead and do that. if it turns out it's to save his yadda yadda sob story, then the go back to the question of whether Konrad would favour shifting to neutral (slightly) or staying evil - neutral: let him go, but try not to look like a softie, k'?; evil: here's your chance to cause some great suffering! destroy the antidote, kill the people he's trying to save, whatever, for the greater evil; or consider using the info to get the antidote for yourself in case you need it, and kill the guy anyway. bwahahaha)
really, the choice is yours whether you want Konrad to shift more towards neutral or stay more firmly evil
'Wise evil' is more about calculated and thoughtful cruelty.
So, what is this guy worth to you? Why do you care if his wife lives or dies? He's just a new guardsman. Unless there is anything special about him then he is more use as an example than anything else.
Have him slaughtered in an inventive fashion. If you can sieze his property go ahead, sell his wife into slavery if possible.
Well, Duke, the chaotic evil thing to do would be to simply excecute him. However, if you wish to justify treating him, then think of it as though you are specifically trying to appear kind and generous so as to beguile your subjects and win their love and affection. However, as a chaotic evil berzerk fighter you probably value strength above all and despise weakness, so the in-character thing to do would be to kill him. :fight!:
Anyway, as a tip for roleplaying a high wis evil character, remember that the wisdom score represents your awareness. So, if you are evil with a high wisdom, you are shrewd and discerning, all the better to exploit others!
Anyway, I hope you enjoy the rest of the game. Its a great one. Don't let it stop there though! Get some d&d rulebooks and join the tabletop game. You won't regret it.
Especially in normal D&D where good and evil are objective principles that actually exist, if someone can argue one way, there is another person who can argue another way just as well.
If you hear some of Ghandi's speeches and such, and get the feeling "Wow, that's true, he's right" etc., then an evil person would hear the same thing and think "Wow, that's the dumbest stuff I've ever heard, he is completely wrong about the world."
So in this example, I'd execute the man publicly for stealing, and then make sure his wife and children have 'accidents' so that they can't seek revenge or even say bad things about me.
Instead of looking at Wisdom as mastery of philosophy in the heaven of ideals, think of it as the ability to see the results of an action.
For example, a character with a high INT but a low WIS is living somewhere with only the short bow for ranged weapons. This makes hunting difficult, so the character invents the long bow. Now he can kill from much further away.
A good person with a low WIS wouldn't figure out that the bow would be used for war, and would give it to everyone, causing many more deaths.
A good person with a high wisdom would understand it would be used for war, and see if he could put it into play for his tribe so that they would be safe. That, or he would figure out if anyone else had the bow, and only give away its secret if he thought it was nessessary.
An evil person with a low wisdom will make the bow and use it for whatever is intresting.
An evil person with a high wisdom will instantly decide it is as good for war as hunting and figure out a way to do some serious damage with it.
Any smart person can make the bow, but it takes someone with a lot of wisdom to do something special with it.
Wisdom is a combination of common sense, the ability to think through the consequences of an action, the ability to know yourself, and your will power. It doesn't neccessarly have to have anything to do with good vs evil or philosophy.
To answer your question, he will rule his kingdom as if he was lawful good, and then, when the time is right, take all the gold, rights, and power for himself...
If he had a lower wisdom he might wreck the place and execute them all for entertainment, but sense he has a high wisdom, I think he would conceal his attitude and play ball until he saw a chance for a big pay off.
You're evil. You would have taken what you needed if you had been in his place. This guard is obviously a man after your own heart. Promote him for having a clear view of the world. But fine him in some way as penalty for being caught and embarrassing you. Preferably in such a way that essentially enslaves him to you for life. And, if you can manage it, taint the cure so the guard needs periodic extra doses to keep his wife alive, and, of course, try to ensure that you control the only local source and thus ensure the guards loyalty.
Or execute him, more for being caught and embarrassing your rule than for the stealing. But to show your largesse, publicly pay for the cure for his wife. And then, less publicly, explain to the wife that it was a loan, not a gift, and she is expected to repay the debt, and isnt it nice that she's still alive to have such a small problem? Since it was an expensive cure you've basically gained a permanent indentured servant who cant leave when you occasionally abuse her for fun in a rousing game of "kick the peasant", when you've run out of kittens to drown etc. For extra kicks, make sure that one of her daily duties is polishing the skull of the executed guardsman, which naturally you will have kept in a public place as a reminder of the cost of failure/disobedience...
I've watched too many movies with cheesy villains... :P
Having read your suggestions, I do think it would be best to have him executed and leaving the wife untreated (she's unreachable other than that, so I can't take her into service or sell her or whatever)
I can always use an editor program to change my alignment to "Lawful Evil", and I might consider that as of fact. Because high Wisdom still is associated to me, to abiding the law - for as long as it suits me! While that would not exactely be a Chaotic thing to do, for chaotic appears to be more like "WHAT? You're bossing me around? DIE!" even though it might be in the evil person's interest to follow the orders! (for now... >=])
Do you maybe have some examples of High Wisdom, Evil Aligned-bad guys from movies or comics? Ideally several of them, some of them being Lawful and others Chaotic. I came up with Lord Voldemort, but on second thought Voldemort is more like high Intelligence with low Wisdom!
UmbralKnight, thanks. I do love this game thus far. I've also got Throne of Bhaal installed, so I'm hoping to complete the whole 'story'. :D I don't know about pen & paper roleplaying though, because firstly it seems like such a big hassle with all the big books full of complex rules, and secondly I can't think of anyone playing such a game (seen as "nerdy" by many) in my vicinity.
Oh and Varia, the second part of your post left me in stitches. :D I guess we share a streak of evilness... :P
I shall give another example from the same game:
There is a certain big city in which it is forbidden to use arcane magic. A powerful group of (presumable LE) wizards (called the Cowled Wizards) oversee the use of magic in the city, and if anyone uses it without their persmission, they are swiftly arrested, sentenced to death or put in an unbreakable prison never to be seen again.
In the game it is possible to never cast any magic at all while within the city, thus abiding the law. OR you could use arcane magic anyway, and when the Cowled Wizards teleport in, you kill them. If you cast arcane magic AGAIN, they will keep sending wizards in. Eventually if you have killed enough wizards, one of their leaders will show up to kill you - kill her, and you'll be left alone from that point onwards.
Alternatively you can bribe one of the wizard's leaders, so they won't come after you when you cast magic. Obviously that would be the Lawful Evil thing to do! (right?)
But that was not my question (exuse me for wandering off)
Because my character has promised these same wizards to hunt down a certain (good-aligned) person, who has killed some of their wizards. Bring him back dead or alive, it does not matter. A rather small reward will be given if you complete the task.
When you find the murderer and you interrogate him, it appears that the Cowled Wizards were after him because his blood (and his blood only) allows entrance to a certain magical sphere filled with much treasure!
What does the lawful evil person do? He can:
1: Lie to the Good aligned man that he will not turn him in, if he joins the party. And later turn him in any way.
2: Ask him to come quietly, if not, kill him and return his body to the wizards to collect the reward.
3: Break his word to the wizards, kill the man, and use his body to gain acces to the sphere.
4: Break his word to the wizards, and join up with the man instead, entering the sphere together and share the loot inside...
Ergo, how much personal gain and money does it take for a Lawful Evil person to break his word to an Evil government?
I'd say giving someone a choice like this would definitly qualify as both evil and chaotic. I dont know if this is possible in the game, with the limited creative ability in computer games... Really try paper and pencil gameing sometime
I know of a gaming club though, they play board games, Magic card game, and warhammer. Maybe they're into this, too.
P.S. I've changed my alignment to lawful evil, executed the guard, didn't pay for the medicine, and I've killed the man and returned him to the evil wizards for a reward. I gave them my word, afteral...
Personally I see Chaotic Evil as "Daemonic" and Lawful Evil as "Diabolic". There is a difference between a mad, cackling daemon killing anyting for the fun of it, and the Devil himself, who is evil, but also shrewd, smart, and calculating.
So whenever I'm not sure what my Lawful Evil fighter would do, I guess I'll ask myself: "What Would Satan Do?"
Recruit him into the party. Loot the sphere with him. Contrive to use magic (Better yet, contrive to have HIM use the magic...) sometime to draw an attack from the wizards and let THEM kill him. I'm betting they'll be foolish enough to do something that will, sadly, require that you defend yourself and destroy them. Then turn in the body for the reward, after looting it of course. And looting the wizards bodies too, by way of accepting their apology for the misunderstanding... The wizards never said anything about access to the sphere being part of the deal, they just wanted the corpse and didnt say why, I'm betting. Its not your fault or problem that they werent more specific with their offer to you or more honest about their reasons or this tragic misunderstanding might not have occurred. Oh well, a deal's a deal, you gave them the corpse, now where's your money?... Tee-hee...
Once you enter the sphere, the very same wizards whom you were supposed to give the body, will teleport in. They'll say something like "Blast! That darned goody-guy convinced you to side with him, did he? Well, then DIE!"
Making you an enemy of the cowled wizards... :P
Of course the wizards will themselves, later be severely weakened (by the ultimate bad guy of the game) but the PC doesn't know that yet. For the moment they are just a powerful group with lots of authority. A lawful evil person would not likely break his oath to them, I guess...
I am letting him help an illegal organisation of powerful thieves though, but he has got enough wisdom (and enough clues given by the game itself) that he can turn on them later, utterly destroying their presence from the city. So I think it's justified
1) You fulfilled your deal. (Lawful)
2) You interpreted your deal to your best self interest. (Evil)
3) You've killed an unsuspecting ally. (Evil)
4) You demand payment for fullfilling your bargain, to the letter. (Lawful)
EVIL
As for the guard, I agree that you should promote him and punish him for being a failure and getting caught. Your guards become above the law, as are you. Do whatever you want with the wife, she doesn't matter much. If your guard is good enough to steal, he's good enough to pay for it.
HIGH WIS
Because you've got high wisdom you're better at reading people and seeing where your own best self interest lies. Sure, you could kill him, but then the townfolk would think that your government is subject to the law (wrong!). You could pay to cure his wife and the guard would owe you big time. A lawful person would do this to except in your case (chaotic) theres no real 'paying back' until you decide its paid back. So cure the wife (this will make people think you 'care' and put the guard in your pocket forever). You're not some tyrant with laws, you are the law, and with your wisdom you can ensure that the rug doesn't get swept out from under you. Think Evil Conan.
UmbralKnight, thanks. I do love this game thus far. I've also got Throne of Bhaal installed, so I'm hoping to complete the whole 'story'. :D I don't know about pen & paper roleplaying though, because firstly it seems like such a big hassle with all the big books full of complex rules, and secondly I can't think of anyone playing such a game (seen as "nerdy" by many) in my vicinity.
Well I suppose I'll do my best to dismiss some of the common misconceptions about d&d here.
About your 1st point:
The rules are actually not all that complicated, it can seem overwhelming as there are a large number of them, but it is quite simple to play and gradually learn on the fly.(That's how everyone I know did it).
To go further on this point the soon to be released(June 6) fourth edition of D&D is supposed to remove many of the complications of previous editions and streamline the rules.
As a player the only book you need to play is the Player's Handbook; The Dungeon Master(commonly abbreviated as DM) is the person who runs/referees/adjuncates the game(runs all the non-player characters and monsters and the events that the players interact with) and as such will need the Dungeon Masters Guide and Monster Manual as well. Other than those three books that is all you need. The option to grab other books to add to your game is there, but you only need the basic three.
On the Second Point:
Many people who are not your stereotypically nerds play D&D (blame media for perpetuating the stereotype). I for one am a 25 yr old accountant, married, have a kid. One of my friends who plays is a musician, another played for his highschool and college football teams; certainly not your stereotypicall losers in my mom's basement.
Try asking your friends if they'd be interested, you might just be surprised,
I would be willing to wager that one of them(assuming your circle of friends isn't terribly small) already plays or has played in the past.
It is incredibly easy to find a play by post game on the internet or to use online free software to play live games with others around the world.
It is also fairly easy to find people in your area with the many gamer classified services that exist on the net; I don't know the names of them as I have been lucky enough not to need them(I live in a large city and have played with the same group for a long time), but someone else here may be able to post some links for you.
High Wisdom is crucially connected to willpower in D&D (at least in 3ED) so training shouldn't be a problem (cf Monks). It's also associated with perception in all its forms. You should usually perceive what actions will give you most profit and/or amusement.
Patience might also be a feature.
Low Intelligence would mean not being terribly good at complicated planning.
(from the character's perspective)
* first reaction is to laugh
* First instinct is to either slaughter him or take the jewels and give him the noblewoman.
HOWEVER
* High wisdom means asking why
* when it turns out he's just a wimp with a sob story
- why the heck would you spend your money on this?
- it might be more amusing to keep him around while his wife dies; maybe you can push him to suicide .. then again this is a Low-ish Int character so that might be looking ahead a bit far.
You really ought to find a way to be nasty to anyone who brings problems to you ..unless they're entertaining. Have you ravished the previous lord's daughter yet?
Sadly this is a computer game so you will probably runinto a lot of boring constraints.
IMO the one thing no lawful person does is break their word. Doing so is definitely chaotic. So the question is: how lawful are you, and how important is that compared to being evil?
Incidentlaly I'd think the first LE reaction to that city should be "how do I join?" ..well maybe second since "how do I take over?" is the other contender.
If you want to break a deal LAWfully you would need to find a abide-by-the-letter method or some way to provoke the other side into breaking it first. In your case such behaviour could be a holdover from your chaotic past.
You probably feel at home in violent storms.
First & foremost, you are a savage hunter. Spiders are hunters, but they don't appeal to you. They spin intricate webs, use poison, and are extremely patient. For humans, this would be High Int, High Wis, and a Lawful Evil Alignment.
Your High Wisdom probably draws it's source from violent aspects of nature/life. You hold to the ideas of "Might makes right," and "Survival of the fittest." If I were to give you an equivalent predator, I'd probably place you at a Bear of some sort. You don't rely on stealth or cunning to catch your prey (like large cats), and you survive most of your encounters by being bigger, tougher, and meaner than your competition.
A high Wisdom can work w/ any alignment, even if you just draw simple allegories from nature.
A Lawful character looks at an Ant colony and sees order.
A Chaotic character looks at weather (particularly storms) and sees chaos.
A Good character looks at canines (or doves) and sees love, loyalty, and trust.
An Evil character looks at predators and sees violence.
A Neutral character looks at the big picture and sees balance.
Any alignment can have a high Wisdom, b/c that's the way the world works.
The guardsman stole some trinkets and stuff from a noblewoman to find a cure for his wife's malady. As a Chaotic Evil lord, both the noblewoman's and wife's welfare are irrelevent to you: as long as your guards do anything you say, it doesn't matter what they do so far as the consequences don't bite you personally in the arse (then yeah kill him, it'd be convenient). I'd just trot out his sob story to the victims he stole from so that they'd drop the charges, then confiscate whatever he stole for myself. Anything else is his problem. In the end, his life is completely yours to dispose of as you will.
As for a high Wis CE berserker, I'd roleplay him as an amoral beast, who's savage fighting techniques and monstrous appearance belies a mind that has very sharp instincts and is quite observant of what's going on around him. While not knowledgeable in any regard, he's clever. I'd use the villain of No Country For Old Men, Anton Chigurh, as a good example of a high-wis, thoroughly CE character: Chigurh, while not particularly skilled at much beyond what directly applied to his occupation of murdering people for money, came across as completely in control of his surroundings, very wise* and observant in avoiding situations that would get him killed, only attacking when he was sure he could bring superior force against the enemy, not even seeing his actions as right or wrong but instead seeing himself as an agent of chance and fate.
While people would expect your berserker to run headlong into traps and fortifications, he could spot traps and smell BS a mile away, then cleverly route them from behind, as they switched positions or before they even realize that you're onto them. The bandit of the countryside that always seems to be two steps ahead of the law because of "luck".
As for an example of a wise yet CE monarch in real history, I'd point towards the biography of Ivan The Terrible. Although one of Russia's most successful rulers (in terms of securing rule within and conquest without), he ruled almost entirely on fear and by killing anyone who could possible be perceived as a threat to him. In his later years, his rages and sadism slowly overtook him and eventually he destroyed his own dynasty in a rage (but hey, you're a beserker, that fits right?).
* - Defining "Wisdom" in this case as "having gained knowledge, understanding, experience, discretion, and intuitive understanding, along with a capacity to apply these qualities well. It is the judicious application of knowledge." as per Wikipedia, ignoring other definitions of wisdom as encompassing greater societal and altruistic enlightenment.
I recall the DMG2 said about CE governments: "The citizens of this government live under constant terror at the horrific situations they are continually placed in."
Lawful evil governments: "There is a strong, set code of laws that citizens obey for fear of draconian punishment."
So either way, you did the right thing. If you're lawful, write a code and obey it to the letter in the future. If you're chaotic, just do whatever the hell seems funny at the time.
EDIT: If you're going for LE, I'd try to make your government as similar to Nazi Germany as possible. Or Soviet Russia.
-Count Dravda
Dravda, I know that hitler wouldve been Lawful Evil, but it's just... that I have quite some objections to killing the jews or putting people in concentration camps...
:PDravda, I know that hitler wouldve been Lawful Evil, but it's just... that I have quite some objections to killing the jews or putting people in concentration camps...
Soviet Russia, then. See how often you can use the phrases "comrade", "capitalist pig", and "the motherland."
-Count Dravda
(nazi germany as a whole was LE, but Hitler? for too chaotic; prob. NE. and really high cha, midling to low wis. Goebbels and them were prob. LE)
This is crues (evil) and unusual (chaotic) punishment, which will set an example for others not to cross you (high wis). Keep him as your servant to enjoy his sorrow in a CE fashion not thinking he might kill you for your ruling (low int).
Order his wife to be executed.
This is cruel (evil) and unusual (chaotic) punishment, which will set an example for others not to cross you (high wis). Keep him as your servant to enjoy his sorrow in a CE fashion not thinking he might kill you for your ruling (low int).
I disagree with the final assesment. A high Wis, which is an understanding of people and their habits and motivations, would make you very aware that he might kill you.
Low Int would mean you know next to nothing about her disease or it's cure. You couldn't guess the value or origin of the noble-woman's jewels, you might not even know who the noble-woman is. It may turn out that she has more power than you think and could eventually spell your doom. You would also know next to nothing about the guard & wife's history. Maybe they were always revolutionaries, maybe they are starch loyalists. Your low Int means you know very little about details and history, but a great deal about what people feel and think in the moment, and possibly in the future.
I disagree with the final assesment. A high Wis, which is an understanding of people and their habits and motivations, would make you very aware that he might kill you.
Low Int would mean you know next to nothing about her disease or it's cure. You couldn't guess the value or origin of the noble-woman's jewels, you might not even know who the noble-woman is. It may turn out that she has more power than you think and could eventually spell your doom. You would also know next to nothing about the guard & wife's history. Maybe they were always revolutionaries, maybe they are starch loyalists. Your low Int means you know very little about details and history, but a great deal about what people feel and think in the moment, and possibly in the future.
I expected that one showing up. Well, I should formulate it differently. He might thing about the possibility of being killed by him, but he is too stupid to realise, that he might kill him in his sleep? (Because he knows very well the guard can't kill him in "fair" combat?)
I expected that one showing up. Well, I should formulate it differently. He might thing about the possibility of being killed by him, but he is too stupid to realise, that he might kill him in his sleep? (Because he knows very well the guard can't kill him in "fair" combat?)
That would be more likely. He would know (with a fair bit of certainty) that the guard would try to kill him. He would not know the guard's history or past. This guard may have a history of picking unfair fights by poisoning, skullduggery, slander, and sneak attacks. Even though the Duke's high wisdom would give him a chance to detect any immediate event, he would have trouble predicting them from historical trends.
But you, like most rulers, are CE not LG. You use any opportunity to your own benefit, and with your altertness from your wisdom you tend to pick up on such opportunities easily. You should often appear to be doing the fair and just thing, and actually do so a lot of the time. But if you have a chance for personal gain or a better reputation through making a big show of it, then go for it. Or perhaps you could get some money from the criminal's buddies to go easy on him. Etc. Appear good so people like you, but seek out your own ends. And if popularity isn't enough to gain people's support, a little bit of fear (for supposedly just and "necessary" reasons) helps too.\
With your moderate int you might not be cunning enough for elaborate plans, rather taking opportunity for quick gain without sacrificing your long term gain when possible. Again, what you excel at is noticing these opportunities, sensing exactly what you could get out of each one directly and immediately.
High int, low wis: "A criminal? Yaya kill him or something while I get back to my plans of further domination."
High wis, low int: "A criminal? Contact his guild and see how much they'll pay if I pull some strings."
High wis, high int: "A criminal? Aha, that adds yet another aspect to my plan! I can make an example of this guy to show how hard I am on crime, while I continue to control the underworld to do my bidding."
A high cha helps even more, letting you influence people as required for any of the above or for completely different goals.