Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 JHawks Apr 02, 2015 2:34:04	Hi everyone,   I'm new to the whole world of D&D and to these forums so hopefully, for one, I'm posting in the right place. I've been looking at several threads about DMs and didn't seem to find anything that related to my situation. Closest I found was a thread where people vented about their experiences against their DMs.   Anyway... I'm currently playing with 6 other people (5 players and 2 DMs). The other DM helps out by occasionally stepping in to mix up the sessions and to help with combat and keeping track of numbers.   I'm here because as a player, I want to help our main DM play better with the group because recently there has been concerns from the players and occasional "debates".   Our main DM said that he has been playing D&D as both a DM and a player for several years. But I feel like he tends to overestimates our group which consists of all newbies. In fact, the only experienced players in our group are the 2 DMs.   I don't want to go into detail but I'll list in bulletpoints the main concerns our group has with our DM:   Our DM is too "by-the-book" and "realistic" in regards to what we can and cannot do as well as what can and cannot happen Our DM goes into unnecessary detail when describing something as simple as a room, often putting in several "Points of Interests" that leads to nothing (I'm not sure though if this is something DMs usually do but for our group, we find them boring and a waste of time) Our DM cannot improvise well and often when players make decisions that go off-track from his plans, those players and the DM would go into a heated "debate", sometimes lasting for half an hour until one of us gives in (most often the players) A couple of the players (including myself) will try to help with the pacing part by basically doing what we think the DM wants us to do, even if it's no "in character".   Recently, I talked with our DM while giving him a list of our concerns but he became very defensive. He was more concerned in justifying his actions and behaviour rather than meeting us halfway or seeing what he can do to improve the sessions.   So I'm asking people here what can the players do in regards to this?   Thank you,
#2 Beoric Apr 02, 2015 5:55:55	1.  Assuming he really is just applying the rules strictly, and is not making up rules to negate player choice, then this is really a matter of personal preference for the DM.  Although “rules lawyering” is a bit of a touchy subject, one thing you can do to address this as a player is to know your rules well, because the rules may let you do more than you know.  If there is something you are thinking of doing that uses a niche rule, have that rule handy.  If he still shuts you down you may be in a railroading situation:  see point 3 below. 2.  Giving unnecessary detail is probably occurring because he is proud of the world he has wrought and wants to showcase it.  Plus, he is unfamiliar with the concept of Chekov’s Gun.  Off the top of my head, the only way I can think of to address this is to ask specific questions to try to determine which details are really important, and stop investigating anything as soon as it looks like a dead end.  If he uses this as a “gotcha” by concealing relevant information among irrelevant information, without any real clues as to which is which, then you may again, be in a railroading situation.  On the other hand, if he is in love with what he has created, he may start feeding you obvious clues so you don’t miss out on his brilliance. 3.  As for the railroading issue, if it is just because he is not good at improvising, he may improve over time, or he may improve if you find ways of suggesting what the improvised solution may be (“Is that a ______ over there?” may work better than “What is over there?”).  If he doesn’t improve, or if it is really a control issue and he has no interest in allowing meaningful player choice, then about all you can do is vote with your feet.  Find or form another group.
(Reply to #2) JHawks	Beoric wrote:
#4 iserith Apr 02, 2015 9:37:03	JHawks wrote:
(Reply to #3) Beoric	JHawks wrote:
#6 Krusk Apr 05, 2015 14:55:50	JHawks wrote:
#7 Imaculata Apr 07, 2015 16:30:39	Another way is to DM a campaign yourself, so he can learn from someone else.
(Reply to #7) AaronOfBarbaria	Imaculata wrote:
#9 Beoric Apr 07, 2015 17:05:21	I'm not sure if that is a risk, or a reward.
(Reply to #9) AaronOfBarbaria	Beoric wrote:
#11 Beoric Apr 07, 2015 21:37:58	Hence the uncertainty.  DMing is a joy, but it is wearing, and a break would be nice.   Huh.  Having written that, I just realized that I have used the same language to describe parenting...
#12 Imaculata Apr 08, 2015 3:45:39	Hahaha. But you two are both correct. Being the DM yourself may be considered for the better if the other DM is really bad. But then again, I totally agree with Aaron as well; Sometimes you just want to be the player, and don't want to be stuck as the default go-to DM of your group.
#13 Hamenopi Apr 09, 2015 7:04:52	Be direct with the DM. Be honest with the DM. Communication is good.    Also Davae Breon Jaxon. This guy is the Dali Lama of Good Ideas. Check him out on youtube. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9SXLowwmU4FEBNCStdFCtw
#14 Krusk Apr 09, 2015 14:38:31	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#15 RedSiegfried Apr 11, 2015 8:34:43	Krusk wrote:
#16 Krusk Apr 16, 2015 16:23:08	Not saying its a bad idea, per say, just pointing out some risks that come with it. Not everyone is super happy to hear they suck at something.
#17 Zathris Apr 16, 2015 17:26:10	No one likes to hear it. Some people need to hear it. Some people want to say it.   More often than not, if you suck, you're going to be told you suck. If you can't handle it, you're not someone I need to associate with.
#18 Krusk Apr 17, 2015 16:04:54	Zathris wrote:
#19 Zathris Apr 19, 2015 21:54:16	Krusk wrote:
#20 Krusk Apr 21, 2015 16:03:37	Zathris wrote:
#21 Zathris Apr 21, 2015 20:15:06	Don't be a pedant, you should know what I mean.
#22 JHawks Apr 26, 2015 4:54:17	Hi everyone,   Sorry for my late response to everyone. I've had troubleling logging in.   First, thank you to everyone who's made suggestions.   iserith wrote:
#23 Krusk Apr 26, 2015 8:15:55	Zathris wrote: